Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Noxluxe
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noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 19, 2019 2:53:11 GMT
Uhm, no? It's abstract modern empathetic philosophy that most people never realize, let alone incorporate, the real-life value of throughout their entire lives in anything more than theory. You can certainly teach it to children, but they won't necessarily care or be able to recognize those behaviors in themselves in daily life as adults just because you did. And Cassandra's guardians certainly did not. And again, Cassandra is neither a theological scholar or a natural or trained peacemaker. She's law enforcement, and a practical and straightforward women with very little delicacy who is quite occupied with her mission. It sounds like your expectations for people's tolerance of other viewpoints are just wildly unrealistic. Seriously, in real life there's very little time and energy left over to make sure nobody feels the least bit offended or infringed upon when something big and practical needs to be done in a hurry with serious consequences if it isn't. That's just how it is, and how it's always been. These days people are negotiating a different approach in office environments and academic institutions because there's a lot of nervous energy going around places like that, since people aren't actually doing much of anything, but in the real world where people work hard to get shit done you just take the lumps as they come, sleep on it and come back the next day ready for more work with people you know you can rely on specifically because you've forgiven them for a dozen tiny offenses and vice versa. Ok, first you claimed that Cassandra knows well enough not to offend someone enough to risk saving the world, but now you're saying she's not empathetic enough to comprehend avoiding offending said same person over faith? Faith isn't a minor quibble in Thedas when the Divine can wield political power nor is being suspicious of handing power to someone who may not have yours or people you love's best interests in mind. She can believe in what she wants, but she doesn't get a free pass for doing what she wouldn't want done to her. The Inquisitor is making serious decisions that affect people's lives and determining whether someone is safe enough to trust not to cause too much harm. If Cassandra can't comprehend that someone else cares about a different faith as much as she does hers, that's her fault, not the person she offended. You don't get to tell someone their beliefs are stupid and then expect to avoid consequences. If someone marched into a Presbyterian church and asked how Christians can believe such nonsense, those within the church have every right to boot that person back out. Now you're confusing things. Restraining yourself from laboring a point you know from experience someone probably isn't going to take well to because you desperately need them as well-disposed as possible, and understanding on a fundamental level that a given person has the same commitment to their faith as you do to yours for the same reasons are two totally different empathetic exercises, and one is a lot rarer and more difficult to master than the other. In a pseudo-medieval world faith isn't up for public debate either, and if someone of higher status than you, or whose allegiance you need, steps on your toes then you bear with it and do your duty without dragging everything to a standstill to fight it out, possibly making things even worse and sabotaging the entire enterprise. I get what you're saying, but that kind of thinking only actually applies in environments and under circumstances where people have the time and surplus energy to sit and work themselves up over whether they've offended someone or been offended themselves. The rest of the world doesn't have that luxury, and trying to impose those ideas on environments where they have no place just grinds things to a halt and leaves everyone feeling resentful at the interruption to their busy schedules because some wuss couldn't take the heat. And if you can't deal with feeling offended for twenty minutes or an hour until something distracts you without calling on higher authority or taking revenge then you'll never fit in as a productive member of those.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 19, 2019 3:25:25 GMT
Ok, first you claimed that Cassandra knows well enough not to offend someone enough to risk saving the world, but now you're saying she's not empathetic enough to comprehend avoiding offending said same person over faith? Faith isn't a minor quibble in Thedas when the Divine can wield political power nor is being suspicious of handing power to someone who may not have yours or people you love's best interests in mind. She can believe in what she wants, but she doesn't get a free pass for doing what she wouldn't want done to her. The Inquisitor is making serious decisions that affect people's lives and determining whether someone is safe enough to trust not to cause too much harm. If Cassandra can't comprehend that someone else cares about a different faith as much as she does hers, that's her fault, not the person she offended. You don't get to tell someone their beliefs are stupid and then expect to avoid consequences. If someone marched into a Presbyterian church and asked how Christians can believe such nonsense, those within the church have every right to boot that person back out. Now you're confusing things. Restraining yourself from laboring a point you know from experience someone probably isn't going to take well to because you desperately need them as well-disposed as possible, and understanding on a fundamental level that a given person has the same commitment to their faith as you do to yours for the same reasons are two totally different empathetic exercises, and one is a lot rarer and more difficult to master than the other. In a pseudo-medieval world faith isn't up for public debate either, and if someone of higher status than you, or whose allegiance you need, steps on your toes then you bear with it and do your duty without dragging everything to a standstill to fight it out, possibly making things even worse and sabotaging the entire enterprise. I get what you're saying, but that kind of thinking only actually applies in environments and under circumstances where people have the time and surplus energy to sit and work themselves up over whether they've offended someone or been offended themselves. The rest of the world doesn't have that luxury, and trying to impose those ideas on environments where they have no place just grinds things to a halt and leaves everyone feeling resentful at the interruption to their busy schedules because some wuss couldn't take the heat. And if you can't deal with feeling offended for twenty minutes or an hour until something distracts you without calling on higher authority or taking revenge then you'll never fit in as a productive member of those. I don't think anyone's expecting perfect behavior, but neither would I expect someone who is offended by Dorian's defense of slavery nor someone who's aggravated by Sera's antics to just quash their own feelings just because someone else isn't bothered by it. An overreaction to what Cassandra said would be demanding her to be dragged and quartered before being beheaded or public humiliation. What I wanted, however, was to discuss and if need be, to argue about her actions with her privately. There's plenty of time to talk in Skyhold about it, and it's particularly important when determining who to support as Divine. Will Cassandra have the presence of mind not to repeat the actions her fellow Seekers committed when mages rebelled? This is someone who's given towards introspection and reflection of her actions. It's vital that she's given feedback and she's the type who'd accept it as necessary. And it's a waste players weren't given the chance to discuss what she'd do for elves if the Inquisitor was Dalish. So if I'm riding her for her actions, it's because my expectations for her are within her ability. Part of teamwork requires getting along, which requires acknowledging personal feelings enough to mollify instead of dismissing.
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
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Noxluxe
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Jul 21, 2018 23:55:09 GMT
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noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 19, 2019 3:38:47 GMT
I don't think anyone's expecting perfect behavior, but neither would I expect someone who is offended by Dorian's defense of slavery nor someone who's aggravated by Sera's antics to just quash their own feelings just because someone else isn't bothered by it. An overreaction to what Cassandra said would be demanding her to be dragged and quartered before being beheaded or public humiliation. What I wanted, however, was to discuss and if need be, to argue about her actions with her privately. There's plenty of time to talk in Skyhold about it, and it's particularly important when determining who to support as Divine. Will Cassandra have the presence of mind not to repeat the actions her fellow Seekers committed when mages rebelled? This is someone who's given towards introspection and reflection of her actions. It's vital that she's given feedback and she's the type who'd accept it as necessary. And it's a waste players weren't given the chance to discuss what she'd do for elves if the Inquisitor was Dalish. So if I'm riding her for her actions, it's because my expectations for her are within her ability. Part of teamwork requires getting along, which requires acknowledging personal feelings enough to mollify instead of dismissing. Not qashing their feelings, just suppressing, ignoring and swallowing them until the important work is done and there's room to work those things out without all the added pressure, if you even remember a given slight by then. An even bigger part of teamwork is recognizing when your feelings in the moment aren't even remotely as important as getting along, completing your goals and getting on with your life.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 19, 2019 3:41:13 GMT
I don't think anyone's expecting perfect behavior, but neither would I expect someone who is offended by Dorian's defense of slavery nor someone who's aggravated by Sera's antics to just quash their own feelings just because someone else isn't bothered by it. An overreaction to what Cassandra said would be demanding her to be dragged and quartered before being beheaded or public humiliation. What I wanted, however, was to discuss and if need be, to argue about her actions with her privately. There's plenty of time to talk in Skyhold about it, and it's particularly important when determining who to support as Divine. Will Cassandra have the presence of mind not to repeat the actions her fellow Seekers committed when mages rebelled? This is someone who's given towards introspection and reflection of her actions. It's vital that she's given feedback and she's the type who'd accept it as necessary. And it's a waste players weren't given the chance to discuss what she'd do for elves if the Inquisitor was Dalish. So if I'm riding her for her actions, it's because my expectations for her are within her ability. Part of teamwork requires getting along, which requires acknowledging personal feelings enough to mollify instead of dismissing. Not qashing their feelings, just suppressing, ignoring and swallowing them until the important work is done and there's room to work those things out without all the added pressure, if you even remember a given slight by then. An even bigger part of teamwork is recognizing when your feelings in the moment aren't even remotely as important as getting along, completing your goals and getting on with your life. Ok? I did mention waiting until getting to Skyhold to hash any concerns out. That's usually when companions discuss personal business to begin with.
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
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noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 19, 2019 4:00:31 GMT
Not qashing their feelings, just suppressing, ignoring and swallowing them until the important work is done and there's room to work those things out without all the added pressure, if you even remember a given slight by then. An even bigger part of teamwork is recognizing when your feelings in the moment aren't even remotely as important as getting along, completing your goals and getting on with your life. Ok? I did mention waiting until getting to Skyhold to hash any concerns out. That's usually when companions discuss personal business to begin with. Then pretend that your character forgot about it, or headcanon that they had a mutually beneficial discussion behind closed doors? The more detailed and varied and deep the conversations with companions are the better, obviously, but Bioware can't realistically predict whenever our characters feel mildly offended and would want to seek resolution.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 19, 2019 4:04:38 GMT
Ok? I did mention waiting until getting to Skyhold to hash any concerns out. That's usually when companions discuss personal business to begin with. Then pretend that your character forgot about it, or headcanon that they had a mutually beneficial discussion behind closed doors? The more detailed and varied and deep the conversations with companions are the better, obviously, but Bioware can't realistically predict whenever our characters feel mildly offended and would want to seek resolution. Or you could accept that other people are not ok with certain things characters do and not get offended because we have a different opinion. If someone for example, calls Sera abusive in a relationship, simply blaming it on the Inquisitor isn't going to remove the problem behavior. Headcanon doesn't remove Cassandra being a massive bigot and hypocrite.
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
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noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 19, 2019 4:30:50 GMT
Then pretend that your character forgot about it, or headcanon that they had a mutually beneficial discussion behind closed doors? The more detailed and varied and deep the conversations with companions are the better, obviously, but Bioware can't realistically predict whenever our characters feel mildly offended and would want to seek resolution. Or you could accept that other people are not ok with certain things characters do and not get offended because we have a different opinion. If someone for example, calls Sera abusive in a relationship, simply blaming it on the Inquisitor isn't going to remove the problem behavior. Headcanon doesn't remove Cassandra being a massive bigot and hypocrite. I'm not offended, I'm losing interest in the discussion. Someone "calling" Sera abusive in a relationship isn't evidence that there is problem behavior to be acted on at all. And seriously, as multifaceted as Bioware tries to make these characters they still are just video game code, only capable of reasoning and being approached from angles that first occur to and seem worth investing in to the developers. It's just not feasible for video game RPGs to allow you to address in-game microaggressions. If you refuse to accept any in-game rationale for a character's actions as you personally experience them, and you refuse to headcanon a solution that appeals to you, and you absolutely cannot accept your character having their feelings hurt a bit and not getting justice for it, then I don't see what can possibly satisfy you except a game where there's no possible way for your character to ever feel offended by another's dialogue. Which certainly isn't a mature RPG.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 19, 2019 4:37:05 GMT
Or you could accept that other people are not ok with certain things characters do and not get offended because we have a different opinion. If someone for example, calls Sera abusive in a relationship, simply blaming it on the Inquisitor isn't going to remove the problem behavior. Headcanon doesn't remove Cassandra being a massive bigot and hypocrite. I'm not offended, I'm losing interest in the discussion. Someone "calling" Sera abusive in a relationship isn't evidence that there is problem behavior to be acted on at all. And seriously, as multifaceted as Bioware tries to make these characters they still are just video game code, only capable of reasoning and being approached from angles that first occur to and seem worth investing in to the developers. It's just not feasible for video game RPGs to allow you to address in-game microaggressions. If you refuse to accept any in-game rationale for a character's actions as you personally experience them, and you refuse to headcanon a solution that appeals to you, and you absolutely cannot accept your character having their feelings hurt a bit and not getting justice for it, then I don't see what can possibly satisfy you except a game where there's no possible way for your character to ever feel offended by another's dialogue. Which certainly isn't an RPG. You're the one putting words in my mouth and insisting on how I should react. Just because I would wish for something doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that Bioware has limitations. Expressing a preference is not expecting a result. Your insistence as to what someone should or should not be offended by is baffling enough already. Pointing out problem behavior that others excuse is a common thing even in real life and part of what a forum like this is for: Discussion about a character's actions.
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Noxluxe
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 1,979 Likes: 3,492
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Mar 14, 2019 16:10:11 GMT
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noxluxe
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 19, 2019 4:57:30 GMT
You're the one putting words in my mouth and insisting on how I should react. Just because I would wish for something doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that Bioware has limitations. Expressing a preference is not expecting a result. Your insistence as to what someone should or should not be offended by is baffling enough already. Pointing out problem behavior that others excuse is a common thing even in real life and part of what a forum like this is for: Discussion about a character's actions. Except you're not pointing out "problem behavior", you're insisting that your very narrow and arbitrary interpretation of a character's actions that can be excused and can be explained away must nonetheless be evidence of enormous bigotry and a toxic influence on the whole setting, and complaining that the devs didn't foresee your mindset and implement a way for you to browbeat the character over it. I'm sorry, but that's just what happens when you roleplay a character taking hard stances on things the game isn't written to put a lot of focus on. Sometimes you have to fudge it a little.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 19, 2019 5:02:19 GMT
You're the one putting words in my mouth and insisting on how I should react. Just because I would wish for something doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that Bioware has limitations. Expressing a preference is not expecting a result. Your insistence as to what someone should or should not be offended by is baffling enough already. Pointing out problem behavior that others excuse is a common thing even in real life and part of what a forum like this is for: Discussion about a character's actions. Except you're not pointing out "problem behavior", you're insisting that your very narrow and arbitrary interpretation of a character's actions that can be excused and can be explained away must nonetheless be evidence of enormous bigotry and a toxic influence on the whole setting, and complaining that the devs didn't foresee your mindset and implement a way for you to browbeat the character over it. I'm sorry, but that's just what happens when you roleplay a character taking hard stances on things the game isn't written to put a lot of focus on. Sometimes you have to fudge it a little. Again, that's your opinion. Not at all what I've been saying. If you're ok with what a character does, that's yours. I'm not telling you you're wrong; I just disagree. I'm getting bored with this discussion as well so I'll leave off here.
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