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Aug 17, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 21, 2016 15:01:11 GMT
I don't really know a lot about 40k (or fantasy WH for that matter), but I really like WH universe. If I had to choose I'll say friggin Tyranids. They're the new unstoppable power with virtually unlimited numbers and the ability to quickly adapt to each and every type of battlefield. BTW, the Necrons are still a thing? weren't they defeated or something? I like the Tau as a whole, but although they have really advanced tech, they're relatively new in the galaxy, they lack presence a.k.a numbers. I doubt they're such a powerhouse if I don't even think they could defeat the Empire alone. The Necrons were originally an organic species known as the Necrontyr. The Necrontyr evolved in a system with a star that emitted a very heavy amount of radiation, and so the Necrontyr grew to be physically frail and rather weak but were very strong of mind and developed many technological advancements to counter their hostile environment. Despite their advances, the Necrontyr's lifespan was relatively short and they died in terrible agony under their harsh sun, which led to their culture revolving much around death, which is why their main complexes are known as tomb worlds. The Necrontyr collectively became obsessed with prolonging their lives and even immortality, but were not able to accomplish this under their sun, so instead the ventured out into space utilizing space vessels constructed from Necrodermis, which is a self-rejuvenating artificial metal alloy made from an unknown combination of elements that is also the primary ingredient for the Necrons' robotic bodies. While the Necrontyr were out in space, they encountered the Old Ones, who were the first recorded interstellar empire in the galaxy, some 60 million years before the 41st Millenium. The Old Ones were the complete opposite of the Necrontyr, being strong in body and full of power and strength while the Necrontyr were sickly and dependent on technology to sustain their lives. The Old Ones were also vastly more advanced than the Necrontyr, utilizing the Webway to travel across vast reaches of space near instantaneously, while the Necrontyr had to use massive stasis ships to survive the slow, slogging trips. The Necrontyr did eventually advance further and develop faster travel, but at the start they were very slow. The Necrontyr eventually formed an empire and, away from their sun, became stronger, but were still rather short and frail in comparison to the Old Ones due to spending their entire time as a species up to this point under their harsh star. Up to this point, the Necrontyr were united in their desire to escape their solar system and find a new home, but once they established a new hold in a new system, this unity began to fracture, and a handful of realms began to splinter away and rebel against the Necrontyr empire, in a series of battles known as the Wars of Secession. Seeking to end the wars and reunite the Necrontyr people, some imperial Necrontyr turned their peoples' hatred toward the Old Ones, who the Necrontyr were incredibly jealous of due to their technology and strong bodies. This begins the War in Heaven. The Old Ones handily defeated the Necrontyr, who were pushed back to the Halo Stars. The Necrontyr's jealousy and hatred of the Old Ones grew into a hatred for all other life, seeing it as an affront to their people that every other species was so superior to them, physically. The Necrontyr empire began to fracture once more from their loss, and a second War of Secession began. Again desperate to reunite their people, imperial Necrontyr happened upon the C'tan, aka the Star Gods. The C'tan are energy beings who draw strength and sustenance from souls, and sensed the hatred in the Necrontyr and appeared before them. To communicate with the C'tan, the Necrontyr constructed metal bodies for the C'tan, made from the same Necrodermis that was used to create their space ships. A C'tan known as The Deceiver spoke to the Necrontyr's leader, the Silent King Szarekh, and convinced him of a plot to destroy the Old Ones. The King ordered his kingdom to construct bodies made of Necrodermis and to transfer the minds of all the Necrontyr into them so that the C'tan may join with them and partner together to destroy the Old Ones. Abandoning their weak and frail bodies was greatly appealing to the Necrontyr, so they constructed legions and legions of these metal bodies for their people to use as weapons in their war. After the bodies were constructed, the C'tan pulled the minds (as in literally forcefully tore the minds from their bodies) from the Necrontyr and placed them in the metal bodies, and fed on the vast amount of life energy left behind from the collective deaths of every single Necrontyr. The Silent King had realized that he and his people had been tricked, manipulated by the C'tan and effectively selling their souls to servitude to the C'tan, with only a handful of the now-Necrons retaining any sort of free will. This effectively rendered the Necrontyr extinct as a species, and gave rise to the Necrons we know today. The C'tan commanded their new Necron soldiers and drove the Old Ones to near extinction. In a last, desperate attempt, the Old Ones created and uplifted a handful of young species, notably the Eldar and the Krok (predecessors to the Orks, and I may have spelled that wrong), to fight the C'tan and Necrons. The Old Ones also inadvertently created the first Warp entities, the Enslavers. The Enslavers held no loyalty to the Old Ones or anyone, being creatures of Chaos, and so began slaughtering the remaining Old Ones along with the C'tan and Necrons, which spelled the end for the Old Ones. During the final years of the second War in Heaven, Szarekh and the other lucid Necrons bided their time and plotted with one another to free their people from the C'tan's control, and led the Necrons in rebellion against the Star Gods, using their own weapons against them, shattering the C'tan into shards, greatly weakening them and hiding said shards in protected tomb complexes spread throughout the galaxy. However, it was not a time of celebration for the Necrons, as the galaxy now lay in ruins and the Eldar, after their uplifting, had risen to the dominant power in the galaxy. So the Silent King ordered his people to be placed in stasis, to wait for the time of flesh to grow weak and die and decompose, and the Necrons would rise again and claim their rightful place as rulers of their new interstellar empire. This period of stasis is known as the Great Sleep, and lasted nearly 60 million years, with the first official encounter between Necron and Imperial (Imperial referring to the Imperium of Man) forces some time in the 800's of the 41st Millenium. So.... No, the Necrons are not defeated or destroyed, they're mostly all still sleeping and waiting to be reactivated. The Necrons that ARE awake right now though are still powerful enough, even as an incredibly small force compared to the main empire, to rival the Imperium of Man and other galactic superpowers in the Milky Way in terms of strength. I didn't have to type out the Necrons' entire history here, but they're my favorite faction and I like talking about them. I enjoy the Necrons as well, though true be told I did enjoy their old lore a bit more. This new Codex makes them a bit too "Tomb Kings in SPACE!" for my liking as all time favorite xenos race. I would personally rank them second to the Tyranids in overall appeal. Speaking of which, I love the quotes concerning the Tyranids, really drives home that 'alien' aspect to them: "To think of these creatures as beasts is a grave mistake. We have observed their vanguard organisms herd prey like cattle into the path of the main swarms. We have seen them expend tides of lesser beasts so that their enemies have no ammunition left when their leaders attack, and armoured columns channeled into narrow defiles where but one of their assault beasts can tear through an entire tank company. Only yesterday we received a pict-capture of several platoons falling back into the keep of Gnex Bastion, only to be trapped and slaughtered by burrowing organisms that burst from the ground. These creatures have shown evidence of a tactical acumen that speaks of a far worse threat than that posed by a mere beast."
"As I looked into its dead black eyes, I saw the terrible sentience it had in place of a soul. Behind that was the steel will of its leader. Further still I could feel its primogenitor coldly assessing me from the void. And looking back from the deepest recesses of the alien's mind I perceived what I can only describe as an immortal hunger. We can slay the Tyranids on our worlds, blast their fleets from the space, grind their armies to torn and ruined fragments. But their hunger? That is beyond our ability to slay."
and of course, my all time favorite: "The more I learn about these aliens, the more I come to understand what drives them, the more I hate them. I hate them for what they are and for what they may one day become. I hate them not because they hate us but because they are incapable of good, honest, human hatred."
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 21, 2016 15:12:39 GMT
I'm not doubting their strategic prowess; as the Tau are one of the few species in that setting to actively study and reverse engineer the technology of their foes. It's just a matter of numbers, and as you say, the Imperium has the edge in space. If the empire of humanity were to actively focus their entire military might against the Tau they would lose, they are outnumbered a thousand to one by a naval presence that has, maybe not superior tech but harder hitting tech. Heck, the Imperium could just bare down on them and launch Cyclonic Torpedoes at each Tau held world and destroy it from orbit without having to expend any ground forces. I'd doubt the viability of that strategy simply due to the fact that Tau orbital stations are something that even the might of the Imperium navy grudgingly had to admit that charging straight forward into their massive guns was something of a mistake. I have no doubt that if dedicated batteries were brought to bear unless if the Imperium was willing to commit overwhelming amounts of these weapons they can longer for all intents and purposes produce... It wouldn't amount to much, they'd have to engage in a ground war if for nothing else then to get around the orbital stations, that was the lesson of the Gulf Crusade. The Imperium has better ships but the Tau have space defenses that have enough power to make that a moot factor. Sure the Tau might not be in the greatest position, but in a defensive war? They have held off all comers in WH to date, they have fought Necrons, Nids, Eldar, Legion after Legion and even a few skirmishes with Chaos and Orks. They still exist. If they as easy to wipe away with a few super weapons as some suggest, it would have happened, it did not. People think Kraken saved the Tau? No, it diverted the attention of the Imperium sure but at the same time, they weren't doing very well in that nasty ground war they kicked off either, no real progress to speak of. Yes, defensive actions mean the Tau have the advantage, but they are still massively outclassed when it comes to being a AAA faction in the setting, like the Imperium, Orks, and Tyranids. In a pitched battle with more or less even footing, yeah the outcome is anyone's guess, but if we are talking the entire might of the Tau empire vs. the entirety of the Imperium, Orks, or Tyranid (like o Ventus originally proposed)? They are a force to be reckoned with, but they aren't anywhere near the 'galactic' level of other species.
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Post by masterwarderz on Oct 21, 2016 15:25:10 GMT
I'd doubt the viability of that strategy simply due to the fact that Tau orbital stations are something that even the might of the Imperium navy grudgingly had to admit that charging straight forward into their massive guns was something of a mistake. I have no doubt that if dedicated batteries were brought to bear unless if the Imperium was willing to commit overwhelming amounts of these weapons they can longer for all intents and purposes produce... It wouldn't amount to much, they'd have to engage in a ground war if for nothing else then to get around the orbital stations, that was the lesson of the Gulf Crusade. The Imperium has better ships but the Tau have space defenses that have enough power to make that a moot factor. Sure the Tau might not be in the greatest position, but in a defensive war? They have held off all comers in WH to date, they have fought Necrons, Nids, Eldar, Legion after Legion and even a few skirmishes with Chaos and Orks. They still exist. If they as easy to wipe away with a few super weapons as some suggest, it would have happened, it did not. People think Kraken saved the Tau? No, it diverted the attention of the Imperium sure but at the same time, they weren't doing very well in that nasty ground war they kicked off either, no real progress to speak of. Yes, defensive actions mean the Tau have the advantage, but they are still massively outclassed when it comes to being a AAA faction in the setting, like the Imperium, Orks, and Tyranids. In a pitched battle with more or less even footing, yeah the outcome is anyone's guess, but if we are talking the entire might of the Tau empire vs. the entirety of the Imperium, Orks, or Tyranid (like o Ventus originally proposed)? They are a force to be reckoned with, but they aren't anywhere near the 'galactic' level of other species. They probably could take whatever the Eldar either variant could throw at them in a defensive war. Same for the Imperium I believe, or at the very least if the Imperium won after conquering the Tau Empire it would likely be in a similar state to what it was at the conclusion of the Hersey, depleted and vulnerable to other factions. I mean think about it, the Imperium threw together a fleet of five capital ships, an assortment of strike cruisers and escorts were deemed enough to face down a single sector, and while it triumphed over a fairly lightly defended trading hub, once it hit the Tau Empire...it fell apart, as in it was reduced to I think a single ship of the line and a couple cruisers due to the Tau Navy and Battle Stations. They'd more or less have to commit everything they had to steam roll the Tau and even then it would likely end up bleeding them heavily, would the Imperium even be standing in the aftermath? I think of it this way. M.A.D the Tau cannot defeat the Imperium, but as history has shown it can slow them down and hurt them enough to not make it worth the effort, apply that to the entire Tau Empire of what was it...like thirty star clusters or so? They'd need to at the least empty the garrisons on their remaining fortress worlds(all four of them), deploy pretty much every chapter of the Space Marines and Grey Knights, and try to knock out the Empire in a single massed invasion of their space, and it'd all have to go perfectly because if one front bogs down it will slow the procession of invasion and it will fail, once you give the Tau time to dig in and fortify, it becomes a land war where either side can win. It would be a campaign of weeks or it would be a campaign of decades if you understand my meaning here.
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Vortex13
2,202
Aug 17, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 21, 2016 16:10:18 GMT
Yes, defensive actions mean the Tau have the advantage, but they are still massively outclassed when it comes to being a AAA faction in the setting, like the Imperium, Orks, and Tyranids. In a pitched battle with more or less even footing, yeah the outcome is anyone's guess, but if we are talking the entire might of the Tau empire vs. the entirety of the Imperium, Orks, or Tyranid (like o Ventus originally proposed)? They are a force to be reckoned with, but they aren't anywhere near the 'galactic' level of other species. They probably could take whatever the Eldar either variant could throw at them in a defensive war. Same for the Imperium I believe, or at the very least if the Imperium won after conquering the Tau Empire it would likely be in a similar state to what it was at the conclusion of the Hersey, depleted and vulnerable to other factions. I mean think about it, the Imperium threw together a fleet of five capital ships, an assortment of strike cruisers and escorts were deemed enough to face down a single sector, and while it triumphed over a fairly lightly defended trading hub, once it hit the Tau Empire...it fell apart, as in it was reduced to I think a single ship of the line and a couple cruisers due to the Tau Navy and Battle Stations. They'd more or less have to commit everything they had to steam roll the Tau and even then it would likely end up bleeding them heavily, would the Imperium even be standing in the aftermath? I think of it this way. M.A.D the Tau cannot defeat the Imperium, but as history has shown it can slow them down and hurt them enough to not make it worth the effort, apply that to the entire Tau Empire of what was it...like thirty star clusters or so? They'd need to at the least empty the garrisons on their remaining fortress worlds(all four of them), deploy pretty much every chapter of the Space Marines and Grey Knights, and try to knock out the Empire in a single massed invasion of their space, and it'd all have to go perfectly because if one front bogs down it will slow the procession of invasion and it will fail, once you give the Tau time to dig in and fortify, it becomes a land war where either side can win. It would be a campaign of weeks or it would be a campaign of decades if you understand my meaning here. Agreed. The Imperium has a habit of underestimating the various xeno species that they engage with which has, on many an occasion, come back to bite them in their fanatically xenophobic rumps.
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Post by masterwarderz on Oct 21, 2016 16:34:48 GMT
They probably could take whatever the Eldar either variant could throw at them in a defensive war. Same for the Imperium I believe, or at the very least if the Imperium won after conquering the Tau Empire it would likely be in a similar state to what it was at the conclusion of the Hersey, depleted and vulnerable to other factions. I mean think about it, the Imperium threw together a fleet of five capital ships, an assortment of strike cruisers and escorts were deemed enough to face down a single sector, and while it triumphed over a fairly lightly defended trading hub, once it hit the Tau Empire...it fell apart, as in it was reduced to I think a single ship of the line and a couple cruisers due to the Tau Navy and Battle Stations. They'd more or less have to commit everything they had to steam roll the Tau and even then it would likely end up bleeding them heavily, would the Imperium even be standing in the aftermath? I think of it this way. M.A.D the Tau cannot defeat the Imperium, but as history has shown it can slow them down and hurt them enough to not make it worth the effort, apply that to the entire Tau Empire of what was it...like thirty star clusters or so? They'd need to at the least empty the garrisons on their remaining fortress worlds(all four of them), deploy pretty much every chapter of the Space Marines and Grey Knights, and try to knock out the Empire in a single massed invasion of their space, and it'd all have to go perfectly because if one front bogs down it will slow the procession of invasion and it will fail, once you give the Tau time to dig in and fortify, it becomes a land war where either side can win. It would be a campaign of weeks or it would be a campaign of decades if you understand my meaning here. Agreed. The Imperium has a habit of underestimating the various xeno species that they engage with which has, on many an occasion, come back to bite them in their fanatically xenophobic rumps. Plus well...the gap between the Imperium and the Tau is sort of a weird thing in space too. While their vessels are undoubtedly more powerful, Tau weapons can still kill them, its just not as...flashy I'd argue. I mean their main forward guns are railguns that can punch through a capital ship, not as dramatic as a Imperium missile barrage or its massive main guns but all the same, its guns will do the trick. The real shortcoming of Tau warships is their lack of dedicated armor and shielding, they until pretty recently with the Or'es series of ships of the line never had dedicated battleships that were devoted solely to combating other battleships. Though even with the new line of ships they aren't known to be as durable say their Imperium equivalent though they are noticeably faster and more maneuverable which fits into the Tau doctrine of lighting war when it comes to space fairly well. The issue here is that there are nowhere as many of the Tau ships when comparing to the a Imperium war fleet, not ships that will stand up to anything above an escort class anyway. The scarcity of their navy is a major issue with the Tau, but I think its something that will resolve itself more or less once they expand a bit more and establish several more dedicated shipyards on the borders of their space. Though that could just be the fan in me talking...I mean I got pumped for the Tau a little back in September with that Gothic trailer. Its nice to be back in command of my favorite faction again, I loved these guys on the table top.
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Aug 17, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 21, 2016 16:56:28 GMT
Its nice to be back in command of my favorite faction again, I loved these guys on the table top. Yeah that game looks awesome, though I am holding off on Gothic until they add in the Tyranid Hive Fleets, or at least some Necrons. Yeah, they weren't really present for that conflict, but I would be willing to fudge the lore a bit to see them added as playable factions. I would imagine that the Hive fleet vessels would bring a whole new way of playing to the game since they are quite capable of "melee" combat with other capital class ships.
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2,202
Aug 17, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
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vortex13
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 21, 2016 17:01:00 GMT
On a side note, out of all the various auxiliary species in the Tau empire, I like the Kroot and Vespid the best. Sure the Fire caste gets all the cool mecha suits and drones, but the Kroot and Vespid are out there tearing it up by themselves no need for all that armor.
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Post by masterwarderz on Oct 21, 2016 17:03:15 GMT
Its nice to be back in command of my favorite faction again, I loved these guys on the table top. Yeah that game looks awesome, though I am holding off on Gothic until they add in the Tyranid Hive Fleets, or at least some Necrons. Yeah, they weren't really present for that conflict, but I would be willing to fudge the lore a bit to see them added as playable factions. I would imagine that the Hive fleet vessels would bring a whole new way of playing to the game since they are quite capable of "melee" combat with other capital class ships. Nids to my eye are the Mai Valentine of Warhammer tbh, they look good on paper but they always lose because the plot cannot have them win. 2:20-2:40 will explain what I mean by that.
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Post by masterwarderz on Oct 21, 2016 17:04:08 GMT
On a side note, out of all the various auxiliary species in the Tau empire, I like the Kroot and Vespid the best. Sure the Fire caste gets all the cool mecha suits and drones, but the Kroot and Vespid are out there tearing it up by themselves no need for all that armor. They made friends with space dwarves, SPACE DWARVES! Honestly how can anyone hope to defeat the Tau? All they do is make friends with every minor faction they encounter.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 21, 2016 17:27:10 GMT
Yeah that game looks awesome, though I am holding off on Gothic until they add in the Tyranid Hive Fleets, or at least some Necrons. Yeah, they weren't really present for that conflict, but I would be willing to fudge the lore a bit to see them added as playable factions. I would imagine that the Hive fleet vessels would bring a whole new way of playing to the game since they are quite capable of "melee" combat with other capital class ships. Nids to my eye are the Mai Valentine of Warhammer tbh, they look good on paper but they always lose because the plot cannot have them win. 2:20-2:40 will explain what I mean by that. Of course they can't be allowed to win, Games Workshop wouldn't be able to make any money off their franchise if the Nids nom nomed everything. Though even if we ignore all of the plot armor and narrative contrivances that contentiously hamper a species that should have eaten and pooped out the collective population of the entire galaxy several times over by now, the Tyranids still hold one aspect to the WH40K setting that (IMO) should never be completely done away with, namely the 'alien' element. We have space elves, space orcs, space zombies, space nazis, spiky space nazis and collective/communists. The Nids are one of the very few actual aliens in this science fantasy universe.
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379
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Jun 16, 2019 15:53:28 GMT
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Weeaboobs
2,697
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oventus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR
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Post by o Ventus on Oct 21, 2016 19:08:17 GMT
Nids to my eye are the Mai Valentine of Warhammer tbh, they look good on paper but they always lose because the plot cannot have them win. 2:20-2:40 will explain what I mean by that. Of course they can't be allowed to win, Games Workshop wouldn't be able to make any money off their franchise if the Nids nom nomed everything. Though even if we ignore all of the plot armor and narrative contrivances that contentiously hamper a species that should have eaten and pooped out the collective population of the entire galaxy several times over by now, the Tyranids still hold one aspect to the WH40K setting that (IMO) should never be completely done away with, namely the 'alien' element. We have space elves, space orcs, space zombies, space nazis, spiky space nazis and collective/communists. The Nids are one of the very few actual aliens in this science fantasy universe. Eh, the Tyranids are just Xenomorphs/Zerg (mostly Zerg since their visual redesign in the 90's-00's) mixed with Borg.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 21, 2016 19:21:12 GMT
Of course they can't be allowed to win, Games Workshop wouldn't be able to make any money off their franchise if the Nids nom nomed everything. Though even if we ignore all of the plot armor and narrative contrivances that contentiously hamper a species that should have eaten and pooped out the collective population of the entire galaxy several times over by now, the Tyranids still hold one aspect to the WH40K setting that (IMO) should never be completely done away with, namely the 'alien' element. We have space elves, space orcs, space zombies, space nazis, spiky space nazis and collective/communists. The Nids are one of the very few actual aliens in this science fantasy universe. Eh, the Tyranids are just Xenomorphs/Zerg (mostly Zerg since their visual redesign in the 90's-00's) mixed with Borg. I would argue that they are more… conceptual (I guess that would be the correct word for them) than those two aliens, but even if we boil them down to that comparison its still more 'alien' than all the other factions in the WH40K setting. The Hive Mind operates based on a single desire to feed, and grow but that single focused desire, to the exclusion to all else, is what makes them so foreign to common "human" rational. There is no Queen of Blades or Borg Queen to break down the Tyranid's motivations into nice little bullet points for the other factions. The Tyranids are unknown monsters from outside of the galaxy that do not negotiate, reason, or bargain. They don't get tired, or scared, and they will never stop trying to achieve their goal. They simply are.
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Post by masterwarderz on Oct 21, 2016 19:52:36 GMT
Eh, the Tyranids are just Xenomorphs/Zerg (mostly Zerg since their visual redesign in the 90's-00's) mixed with Borg. I would argue that they are more… conceptual (I guess that would be the correct word for them) than those two aliens, but even if we boil them down to that comparison its still more 'alien' than all the other factions in the WH40K setting. The Hive Mind operates based on a single desire to feed, and grow but that single focused desire, to the exclusion to all else, is what makes them so foreign to common "human" rational. There is no Queen of Blades or Borg Queen to break down the Tyranid's motivations into nice little bullet points for the other factions. The Tyranids are unknown monsters from outside of the galaxy that do not negotiate, reason, or bargain. They don't get tired, or scared, and they will never stop trying to achieve their goal. They simply are. Which is why they are great for uniting factions that would otherwise want to kill each other into killing them. Like Necrons...the Tau tried to be friends with them, it didn't go so well sadly.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 21, 2016 20:40:49 GMT
I would argue that they are more… conceptual (I guess that would be the correct word for them) than those two aliens, but even if we boil them down to that comparison its still more 'alien' than all the other factions in the WH40K setting. The Hive Mind operates based on a single desire to feed, and grow but that single focused desire, to the exclusion to all else, is what makes them so foreign to common "human" rational. There is no Queen of Blades or Borg Queen to break down the Tyranid's motivations into nice little bullet points for the other factions. The Tyranids are unknown monsters from outside of the galaxy that do not negotiate, reason, or bargain. They don't get tired, or scared, and they will never stop trying to achieve their goal. They simply are. Which is why they are great for uniting factions that would otherwise want to kill each other into killing them. Like Necrons...the Tau tried to be friends with them, it didn't go so well sadly. Too bad the Tau didn't dress up like Blood Angels, the Necrons would have been totes BFFs with them then
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Post by masterwarderz on Oct 21, 2016 21:31:44 GMT
Which is why they are great for uniting factions that would otherwise want to kill each other into killing them. Like Necrons...the Tau tried to be friends with them, it didn't go so well sadly. Too bad the Tau didn't dress up like Blood Angels, the Necrons would have been totes BFFs with them then That's another Nid alliance though
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Post by o Ventus on Oct 21, 2016 21:41:16 GMT
Eh, the Tyranids are just Xenomorphs/Zerg (mostly Zerg since their visual redesign in the 90's-00's) mixed with Borg. I would argue that they are more… conceptual (I guess that would be the correct word for them) than those two aliens, but even if we boil them down to that comparison its still more 'alien' than all the other factions in the WH40K setting. The Hive Mind operates based on a single desire to feed, and grow but that single focused desire, to the exclusion to all else, is what makes them so foreign to common "human" rational. There is no Queen of Blades or Borg Queen to break down the Tyranid's motivations into nice little bullet points for the other factions. The Tyranids are unknown monsters from outside of the galaxy that do not negotiate, reason, or bargain. They don't get tired, or scared, and they will never stop trying to achieve their goal. They simply are. So... Still just the Zerg. Or rather, the Zerg are just Tyranids, since the Zerg came later. Pre-Kerrigan, the Zerg didn't really have an ulterior motive beyond "kill, consume, assimilate, infest". Even after Kerrigan is put in power, she still didn't have a discernible endgame until StarCraft 2 (and even then her endgame wasn't conceived as a plan until AFTER she was de-infested) and it was still just kill everything and assimilate it into the swarm. Of course, the Tyranids being a property of Games Workshop, they're on a much larger scale than the Zerg, but conceptually they're not really that different from each other, especially after GW visually remade the Tyranids to more resemble the Zerg (which may have been coincidence, I'm not sure, but they REALLY look like Zerg now).
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 22, 2016 1:21:53 GMT
Too bad the Tau didn't dress up like Blood Angels, the Necrons would have been totes BFFs with them then That's another Nid alliance though I know, just still amazed at how Ward was able to cram that into the fluff. Though I guess I shouldn't be surprised, his rampant fanboyism did see the Ultramarines and then Grey Knights become the most bestest, most super awesome, mega snowflakes in all the established cannon.
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Post by masterwarderz on Oct 22, 2016 1:26:04 GMT
That's another Nid alliance though I know, just still amazed at how Ward was able to cram that into the fluff. Though I guess I shouldn't be surprised, his rampant fanboyism did see the Ultramarines and then Grey Knights become the most bestest, most super awesome, mega snowflakes in all the established cannon. I will agree with you on that.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 22, 2016 1:38:25 GMT
I would argue that they are more… conceptual (I guess that would be the correct word for them) than those two aliens, but even if we boil them down to that comparison its still more 'alien' than all the other factions in the WH40K setting. The Hive Mind operates based on a single desire to feed, and grow but that single focused desire, to the exclusion to all else, is what makes them so foreign to common "human" rational. There is no Queen of Blades or Borg Queen to break down the Tyranid's motivations into nice little bullet points for the other factions. The Tyranids are unknown monsters from outside of the galaxy that do not negotiate, reason, or bargain. They don't get tired, or scared, and they will never stop trying to achieve their goal. They simply are. So... Still just the Zerg. Or rather, the Zerg are just Tyranids, since the Zerg came later. Pre-Kerrigan, the Zerg didn't really have an ulterior motive beyond "kill, consume, assimilate, infest". Even after Kerrigan is put in power, she still didn't have a discernible endgame until StarCraft 2 (and even then her endgame wasn't conceived as a plan until AFTER she was de-infested) and it was still just kill everything and assimilate it into the swarm. Of course, the Tyranids being a property of Games Workshop, they're on a much larger scale than the Zerg, but conceptually they're not really that different from each other, especially after GW visually remade the Tyranids to more resemble the Zerg (which may have been coincidence, I'm not sure, but they REALLY look like Zerg now). Even ignoring Kerrigan, the Zerg are surprisingly individualistic for a supposed swarm bent on consuming and assimilating everything. The Tyranids are on a completely separate scale than the Zerg true, but they are also far more 'alien' in their approach to things. There's no power struggles in the Hive Fleets, every single organism from the lowest ripper to the Hive Tyrants or Norn Queens are dedicated to a single goal. The Zerg had the Overmind and Cerebrates competing with each other over petty positions of authority even before Kerrigan was a blip on their radar.
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Post by o Ventus on Oct 22, 2016 2:48:55 GMT
So... Still just the Zerg. Or rather, the Zerg are just Tyranids, since the Zerg came later. Pre-Kerrigan, the Zerg didn't really have an ulterior motive beyond "kill, consume, assimilate, infest". Even after Kerrigan is put in power, she still didn't have a discernible endgame until StarCraft 2 (and even then her endgame wasn't conceived as a plan until AFTER she was de-infested) and it was still just kill everything and assimilate it into the swarm. Of course, the Tyranids being a property of Games Workshop, they're on a much larger scale than the Zerg, but conceptually they're not really that different from each other, especially after GW visually remade the Tyranids to more resemble the Zerg (which may have been coincidence, I'm not sure, but they REALLY look like Zerg now). Even ignoring Kerrigan, the Zerg are surprisingly individualistic for a supposed swarm bent on consuming and assimilating everything. The Tyranids are on a completely separate scale than the Zerg true, but they are also far more 'alien' in their approach to things. There's no power struggles in the Hive Fleets, every single organism from the lowest ripper to the Hive Tyrants or Norn Queens are dedicated to a single goal. The Zerg had the Overmind and Cerebrates competing with each other over petty positions of authority even before Kerrigan was a blip on their radar. "Far more alien" for a certain definition of "far", perhaps. The Overmind kept the Cerebrates in check and it's only after the Overmind's death that the Cerebrates started to compete with one another. Also, the Zerg (save Kerrigan, who is a special case) are all focused on a single goal as well, assimilating and consuming more biomass and advancing the swarm, in the same way the Tyranids' main objective is to eat and eat and eat and never stop eating.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 22, 2016 4:03:27 GMT
Even ignoring Kerrigan, the Zerg are surprisingly individualistic for a supposed swarm bent on consuming and assimilating everything. The Tyranids are on a completely separate scale than the Zerg true, but they are also far more 'alien' in their approach to things. There's no power struggles in the Hive Fleets, every single organism from the lowest ripper to the Hive Tyrants or Norn Queens are dedicated to a single goal. The Zerg had the Overmind and Cerebrates competing with each other over petty positions of authority even before Kerrigan was a blip on their radar. "Far more alien" for a certain definition of "far", perhaps. The Overmind kept the Cerebrates in check and it's only after the Overmind's death that the Cerebrates started to compete with one another. Also, the Zerg (save Kerrigan, who is a special case) are all focused on a single goal as well, assimilating and consuming more biomass and advancing the swarm, in the same way the Tyranids' main objective is to eat and eat and eat and never stop eating. The fact that the Cerebrates had conflict at all though shows that they are very different from the Tyranids in terms of execution. Why allow the organisms comprising the hive to have a desire to turn on each other? Very inefficient for a species who's whole shtick is to consume and assimilate all non-Zerg. On a different note, what do you think of the theory that the Tyranids are actually a creation of the Old Ones to preserve life in the galaxy from the Necrons during the War in Heaven?Essentially, the idea is that the Tyranids would consume the biomass in the galaxy and store their genetic code within their hive fleets, and then once the threat of the Necrons were dealt with, they would "reverse" the collect and process step and repopulate the galaxy. This way life would not only be kept secure, but it would deny the C'Tan any beings for their Red Harvests, although something happened and the Tyranids are now stuck on "collect and preserve". Personally, I'm not a fan of that theory. I like the idea of the Nids being something outside the Old Ones' machinations better than everything in the setting being tied back to one specific point.
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Post by o Ventus on Oct 22, 2016 4:11:57 GMT
"Far more alien" for a certain definition of "far", perhaps. The Overmind kept the Cerebrates in check and it's only after the Overmind's death that the Cerebrates started to compete with one another. Also, the Zerg (save Kerrigan, who is a special case) are all focused on a single goal as well, assimilating and consuming more biomass and advancing the swarm, in the same way the Tyranids' main objective is to eat and eat and eat and never stop eating. The fact that the Cerebrates had conflict at all though shows that they are very different from the Tyranids in terms of execution. Why allow the organisms comprising the hive to have a desire to turn on each other? Very inefficient for a species who's whole shtick is to consume and assimilate all non-Zerg. On a different note, what do you think of the theory that the Tyranids are actually a creation of the Old Ones to preserve life in the galaxy from the Necrons during the War in Heaven?Essentially, the idea is that the Tyranids would consume the biomass in the galaxy and store their genetic code within their hive fleets, and then once the threat of the Necrons were dealt with, they would "reverse" the collect and process step and repopulate the galaxy. This way life would not only be kept secure, but it would deny the C'Tan any beings for their Red Harvests, although something happened and the Tyranids are now stuck on "collect and preserve". Personally, I'm not a fan of that theory. I like the idea of the Nids being something outside the Old Ones' machinations better than everything in the setting being tied back to one specific point. The Cerebrates were extensions of the Overmind's will, and commanded individual armies and/or fleets in the Swarm. Really though, they're they're the in-universe reason for the player's actions during the Zerg campaign in StarCraft 1, as the player is supposed to be a Cerebrate. As of StarCraft 2, the Cerebrates are all dead now and the swarm is solely under Kerrigan's control. Have the Old Ones been outside the galaxy? If so, then I can see it as a possibility, just given the sheer lack of concrete information available in regards to the Old Ones, save for them being essentially alien gods, and the fact that they uplifted the Eldar and Orks to fight the Necrons and C'tan. Personally I've always thought that the Tyranids were just extragalactic aliens, I've never given much thought to their origins.
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Post by masterwarderz on Oct 22, 2016 17:33:30 GMT
I wonder if the Tau and Blood Angels would make friends if they fought and killed things together, do you think that mutual cooperation during crisis would finally be the thing to turn that Legion traitor?
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Post by o Ventus on Oct 22, 2016 18:44:19 GMT
I wonder if the Tau and Blood Angels would make friends if they fought and killed things together, do you think that mutual cooperation during crisis would finally be the thing to turn that Legion traitor? ... Why would they?
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Post by masterwarderz on Oct 22, 2016 18:59:20 GMT
I wonder if the Tau and Blood Angels would make friends if they fought and killed things together, do you think that mutual cooperation during crisis would finally be the thing to turn that Legion traitor? ... Why would they? I think in part because the overall message of the "greater good" would resonate with the principles of their Primarch(which they still hold to strongly ten thousand years later) and their distaste with fighting former allies in the aftermath of them fighting together. I think if any encounter with a species and them being forced into cooperation with each other resulting into something resembling an actual alliance, it would be the Tau. Plus the Tau aren't exactly as heretical as Imperium propaganda would undoubtedly portray given they even allow limited worship of the God Emperor, though that's mostly done just appeasement for first generation humans coming into the Empire. I am not saying it would be guaranteed or even likely but I think that if any Legion would turn against the Imperium upon being forced into coexistence with the Tau, it would be them. The rest are either too adamant in belief to the point to sheer stupidity or too bound up in their own collective dogma to see how the benefits of cooperation can be, meanwhile with this branch of the Marines you have had continued interaction and forced cooperation with Alien species again and again and again, they have a broader perspective and I think that can be something of an olive branch in their favor. Note I am not by any meaning stating that this would lead to cooperation between the Imperium and Empire, if anything if this actually came to pass it would lead to the entire chapter likely being excommunicated, which is nothing new to the Blood Angels. Its just a thought I had a while back. I mean you had entire legions fall to Chaos and come under the sway of the its deities, I think it would be a novel thing if one actually branched out for itself and established a new practice of desertion from the Imperium.
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