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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 8, 2019 0:51:08 GMT
While MEA was my least favorite Mass Effect game I didn't hate it and wished they had made the dlc for it. However one of my biggest gripes about it is the way everything looked. It looks so cartoonish. Play ME3 or ME2 and then play andromeda and tell me the look and feel of ME2 and ME3 weren't alot better. I had the same problem with DAI but the dragon age series hadn't had the cool look that Mass Effect did. So does anyone else want them to go back to that look and feel of the old ME games. And I am not saying go back to the same engine since it is outdated now but something like that that looks kinda realistic
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 8, 2019 2:09:53 GMT
I think a lot of us would like something else. I'm going to go off of some vague recollection of something I read here right now. I think it was said that EA has invested in Frostbite in some capacity (licensing, perhaps) and so is pushing it to be used.
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 8, 2019 14:32:50 GMT
Definitely. Frostbite is terrible about handling RPGs, and while it's possible it can be tweaked to allow for such genres in a much more smother fashion EA is not giving BioWare the support they need to actually manage that.
You would think that since DICE and BioWare are under the same roof, and that DICE is the one with the most experience in handling Frostbite, that EA would use one of it's developers to assist the other. Instead they leave BioWare to try and figure things out on their own which naturally doesn't go well for them. I mean their "A Team" was working on Anthem for six years and the end product is still a buggy mess.
If BioWare could go back to an engine they are familiar with (Unreal) maybe they wouldn't have to spend 95% of their game's development time just fighting with an unwieldy game engine and instead focus on making the game.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 15:05:28 GMT
It's not like we have a say in the matter. From what I understand, even Bioware doesn't have much of a say in the matter. The Bioware team has been working with Frostbite for the last several years now and it's EA's in-house engine and EA seem committed to seeing it being improved to work with different games... so, I think they should just persevere with it at this point rather than spending more millions building everything again in another new engine
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 8, 2019 15:11:32 GMT
Play ME3 or ME2 and then play andromeda and tell me the look and feel of ME2 and ME3 weren't alot better. Okay. The look and feel weren’t better. I prefer MEA.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Mar 8, 2019 17:03:18 GMT
Play ME3 or ME2 and then play andromeda and tell me the look and feel of ME2 and ME3 weren't alot better. Okay. The look and feel weren’t better. I prefer MEA. Yeah, and in the trilogy, look went down with ME2 from ME1 for me, but they returned some of the quality with ME3. Still it was too s-curved from contrast side but now lacking the ME2 highly packed light probes... And there it is in this thread, the amazing "cant handle RPG" claim ..
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 8, 2019 17:07:57 GMT
And there it is in this thread, the amazing "cant handle RPG" claim ..
Not saying it impossible with Frostbite, but its clear with the amount of problems BioWare has been having with it from DA:I through Anthem that it was clearly not designed with that in mind.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Mar 8, 2019 17:13:01 GMT
And there it is in this thread, the amazing "cant handle RPG" claim ..
Not saying it impossible with Frostbite, but its clear with the amount of problems BioWare has been having with it from DA:I through Anthem that it was clearly not designed with that in mind. For this, can you point to engine freely available which is made for RPG? I dont think Unreal Engine was either...
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 8, 2019 17:17:19 GMT
Not saying it impossible with Frostbite, but its clear with the amount of problems BioWare has been having with it from DA:I through Anthem that it was clearly not designed with that in mind. For this, can you point to engine freely available which is made for RPG? I dont think Unreal Engine was either... Unreal has plenty of built-in and freely sourced tools that aid in creating an RPG though. Frostbite doesn't. And one can assume that most of what BioWare has done with it have been the result of their own custom utilities. EDIT: Which of course lead to delays and buggy games.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 17:33:00 GMT
Where I think EA dropped the ball, was investing in the tools for FB, that make things easier to do.
I have TW3, but have not played it … I keep trying to finish TW … to work a story through TW2 on to TW3 and I just can't. But I have read that CDPR invested a lot of time, energy and money into dev tools for TW3 engine, so that the devs could do what they needed to do to create the game they wanted.
In MEA, the facial animations were pretty bad … there were some improvements that got at the memes the game created, but overall, facial animations remain sub-par.
In Anthem, the facial animations are really quite amazing. There was a bug for one of the endgame missions, where I could not progress beyond a certain point … so I got to play that mission many, many times trying to find a way to bypass the bug. Rather than leave the room during the mission start scene, instead, I watched it, studied it, noticed how the facial animations really were quite extraordinary. But it's not just scenes like that. Conversations with various NPCs in Ft Tarsis … I've marveled at how really good they are.
So … FB is capable of doing things well, that may not have been present in earlier versions of the engine. Also learning curve. Also, developer tools to make it possible to do things well. If I thought it was a lost cause, I'd be on the bandwagon for dumping sunk costs of working the FB engine and going to something else. But given how the facial animations have improved from MEA to Anthem … I think it is more an issue of devs having the proper tools to build a game … which given its roots, FB didn't come equipped with those tools, for games like MEA, DA and … in a different/hybrid genre … Anthem.
I have no idea how far along they might be with creating the proper tools for the devs. If EA was smart (that's up for debate), they would put a priority on creating those tools … not just for BioWare, but for any of their divisions that are producing games that are different from the games DICE originally designed FB to support.
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Post by Sanunes on Mar 8, 2019 17:36:49 GMT
If BioWare leaves Frostbite it won't fix the problems they had with the engine for it was them having to develop what they needed to get the engine to work for what they wanted it to do. So if they switch engines they are going to have the exact same problems developing the tools they need while developing a game. Now if the reports are correct one major problem with Andromeda is they pretty much ignored everything that BioWare Edmonton did with Inquisition and went back to develop their own tools and didn't bother taking any advice from Edmonton for I guess ego.
Looking at how far Edmonton went from Inquisition to Anthem I am pretty sure BioWare is in a better spot staying with Frostbite then having to learn a new engine and developing the tools they would use for it.
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Post by feuerrabe on Mar 8, 2019 17:38:54 GMT
While MEA was my least favorite Mass Effect game I didn't hate it and wished they had made the dlc for it. However one of my biggest gripes about it is the way everything looked. It looks so cartoonish. Play ME3 or ME2 and then play andromeda and tell me the look and feel of ME2 and ME3 weren't alot better. I had the same problem with DAI but the dragon age series hadn't had the cool look that Mass Effect did. So does anyone else want them to go back to that look and feel of the old ME games. And I am not saying go back to the same engine since it is outdated now but something like that that looks kinda realistic
Hm. I am not sure whether this is helpful at this point. Frostbite was poorly suited for Dragon Age: Incquisition and Mass Effect Andromeda. But it was a learning experience. The engine and the tools to handle it evolved in the process. The more RPGs are developed within EA, the more sophisticated the engine will become.
Let's just say I'll wait until after the release of Dragon Age 4 before I render judgement. That is assuming the production of the next Mass Effect does not start before then...
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 8, 2019 17:42:40 GMT
If BioWare leaves Frostbite it won't fix the problems they had with the engine for it was them having to develop what they needed to get the engine to work for what they wanted it to do. So if they switch engines they are going to have the exact same problems developing the tools they need while developing a game. Now if the reports are correct one major problem with Andromeda is they pretty much ignored everything that BioWare Edmonton did with Inquisition and went back to develop their own tools and didn't bother taking any advice from Edmonton for I guess ego. Looking at how far Edmonton went from Inquisition to Anthem I am pretty sure BioWare is in a better spot staying with Frostbite then having to learn a new engine and developing the tools they would use for it. Wow really? Talk about moronic then. Why would you forgo any progress your production company made and go back to reinvent the wheel like that? I sincerely hope that all the higher ups who allowed that to happen are no longer working there. Best to follow the words of Gandalf in that situation "… throw yourself in next time and rid us of your stupidity."
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Post by Sanunes on Mar 8, 2019 18:23:33 GMT
If BioWare leaves Frostbite it won't fix the problems they had with the engine for it was them having to develop what they needed to get the engine to work for what they wanted it to do. So if they switch engines they are going to have the exact same problems developing the tools they need while developing a game. Now if the reports are correct one major problem with Andromeda is they pretty much ignored everything that BioWare Edmonton did with Inquisition and went back to develop their own tools and didn't bother taking any advice from Edmonton for I guess ego. Looking at how far Edmonton went from Inquisition to Anthem I am pretty sure BioWare is in a better spot staying with Frostbite then having to learn a new engine and developing the tools they would use for it. Wow really? Talk about moronic then. Why would you forgo any progress your production company made and go back to reinvent the wheel like that? I sincerely hope that all the higher ups who allowed that to happen are no longer working there. Best to follow the words of Gandalf in that situation "… throw yourself in next time and rid us of your stupidity." I don't think it was re-inventing the wheel, since both games were being developed at close to the same time. They just didn't work together closely to figure out problems at least that was what I took from the articles.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 8, 2019 18:24:41 GMT
Wow really? Talk about moronic then. Why would you forgo any progress your production company made and go back to reinvent the wheel like that? I sincerely hope that all the higher ups who allowed that to happen are no longer working there. Best to follow the words of Gandalf in that situation "… throw yourself in next time and rid us of your stupidity."I don't think it was re-inventing the wheel, since both games were being developed at close to the same time. They just didn't work together closely to figure out problems at least that was what I took from the articles. Do you have a link to these articles? First I’ve heard of this so am curious.
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Post by Sanunes on Mar 8, 2019 18:32:21 GMT
I don't think it was re-inventing the wheel, since both games were being developed at close to the same time. They just didn't work together closely to figure out problems at least that was what I took from the articles. Do you have a link to these articles? First I’ve heard of this so am curious. Its the Kotaku article mostly and its just my take on what I was reading. The other articles from Kotaku I have problems with, but this one seems to have the most effort put into it. kotaku.com/the-story-behind-mass-effect-andromedas-troubled-five-1795886428
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Mar 8, 2019 18:57:28 GMT
For this, can you point to engine freely available which is made for RPG? I dont think Unreal Engine was either... Unreal has plenty of built-in and freely sourced tools that aid in creating an RPG though. Frostbite doesn't. And one can assume that most of what BioWare has done with it have been the result of their own custom utilities. EDIT: Which of course lead to delays and buggy games. Yes, maybe Unreal 4.x++ has now plenty of, but back in the day there werent much so.. Then again, it might not be the engine but the tool chain itself leading to the engine, been there, done that it was horrible. I dont believe this though either. Or I dont want to it might imply something else, but in the end we dont know the details.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Mar 8, 2019 19:03:31 GMT
Where I think EA dropped the ball, was investing in the tools for FB, that make things easier to do. In MEA, the facial animations were pretty bad … there were some improvements that got at the memes the game created, but overall, facial animations remain sub-par. In Anthem, the facial animations are really quite amazing. So … FB is capable of doing things well, that may not have been present in earlier versions of the engine. I think it is more an issue of devs having the proper tools to build a game … which given its roots, FB didn't come equipped with those tools, for games like MEA, DA and … in a different/hybrid genre … Anthem. No I dont think FB comes with those tools, they're usually from outside company specializing in the facial animation and such, lisensed for the game. Integrating this toolchain might be amazing feat itself, might not. This might be the nail on the head thing here so to say. I didnt think MEA had bad facial animations (also didnt get any stuck-face bugs), IMHO usually better after the patches than in the trilogy, but sometimes going still wonky though like in the trilogy also. In Anthem, they are on another level, and the whole facial detail, not sure if they have subsurface scattering, but it looks quite fine. Again, we can guess to warm up here in the cold internet.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 8, 2019 19:15:28 GMT
Well, clearly it took BW a lot of time to finally get Frostbite to a point where it works with thier games. If the Kotaku article is to be believed (which I think it is), just getting things to run in Frostbite took a huge chunk of dev time and thus cause a lot of problems with the game. That said, the end result was pretty good. I never had too many issues with ME:A's visuals, gameplay or overall structure. So assuming that they now have a scaffolding to build an ME:A like game in Frosbite and since i think it would be ok for a new ME game to just build on ME:A's structure and mechanics, I'd say keep it, now that you figured it out. There is no guarantee that switching to a new engine wouldn't cause new troubles as well. I'd rather they concentrate on getting the game's content right and polished and not change the basics yet again.
EDIT: However, one thing that I forgot about is that the Montreal team who did work on Andromeda is no longer there. I am not sure what happenend to their members or where all their tools went (or how well they are documented). With that in mind, it really depends on who'd work on the next ME game exactly. Say it's the old team that used to work on the trilogy mostly, they might still be very used to creating Mass Effect style content in Unreal. SO in that case, it might be best to use Unreal 4 (which in my (limited) experience is not so different in its toolsets and general use than UE3, just has tons of new functions and improvements that could added). So it really depends ... but since EA seems to still push all their dev team to use Frostbite no matter what (the morons), this discussion is likely moot anyway.
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Post by feuerrabe on Mar 8, 2019 19:55:23 GMT
I don't think that the Unreal Engine is a feasible option from EA's point of view. They would have to pay royalties to a competitor who... - just started the Epic Store and continues its legacy of rivalry with the Valve,* but also adds pressure for the niche in which the brand store Origin exists.
- runs the amazingly successful game Fortnite. I can imagine that this bugs EA...
I am not sure whether the Battle Royal mode in Battlefield V is meant as a serious competition from EA's point of view (the genre simply doesn't interest me), but I bet they want a bigger share of that market for themselves. EA's recent title "Apex Legends" is a direct attack on Epic Games' "Fortnite".
I imagine that EA would rather release a few mediocre games than surrender to the competetion. Strategically the Frostbite Engine is more important than any individual game. * Epic Games "Unreal" and Valve's "Half-Life" were released on the same day, May 22, 1998
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 20:22:38 GMT
I'm all for running Unreal Engine 4 for their next game.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 9, 2019 4:52:39 GMT
Isn't it a little late for this? Doing the work to adapt Frostbite to a DA or ME game is a sunk cost.
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Post by clips7 on Mar 10, 2019 5:46:29 GMT
Isn't it a little late for this? Doing the work to adapt Frostbite to a DA or ME game is a sunk cost. Yeah..in no way does EA dump it's in-house engine to start over from scratch. I thought Andromeda looked great...one of the best looking games this gen in terms of art direction and design..planets felt fully realized and the visuals of the vaults was stunning. I only thought the design of those Brute looking creatures was a bit cartoony and plastic looking.....but i think as Grinch posted EA could have invested in FB to make things easier to structure. Folks are saying that the facial animations look great in Anthem and to be fair, once the patches dropped in Andromeda, i did happen to see some great looking Ryder creations.....so guess it's a combination of EA investing in tools to make the product better and also the skill of the artist/ programmer implementing it's functionalities.
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Post by feuerrabe on Mar 10, 2019 13:55:16 GMT
Hm. In my opinion, Bioware games do not tend to constitute the forefront of video game graphics, but, within the scope they chose, they are done with a lot of love. Baldur's Gate was an RPG in pure 2D graphics which was released in the same year as the afforementioned games "Half-Life" and "Unreal". Those two games set a benchmark, whereas Baldur's Gate was quite retro at the time of its release. Nevertheless, the painted maps did have an intense flair. Neverwinter Nights (2003) was released in the same year as Morrowind. Similar to the comparison before, it's an entirely different perspective which sets different challenges, but please... Neverwinternights doesn't hold the stick to Morrowind. What made Neverwinter nights stand out and be viable for a relatively long time was its easy-to-use level design tool. (I've heard people use superlatives such as claiming that Andromeda hosted the least memorable companions of all Bioware games. I am inclined to disagree. That was Neverwinter Nights.) The character models rather reminded in their degree of detail on Tomb Raider, except that that was a game from 1996. Knights of the Old Republic, one year later... as opposed to the previous, KotOR had a really intense and engaging story. The environments were... more or less acceptable, but the character graphics and animations was extremely clunky. Same year as Sony's MMO Star Wars: Galaxies, which had a lot of more sophisticated character, in spite of it being an MMO (meaning you may end up with dozens of customized characters on your screen, an each with unique models, textures etc.). I can't think of a really groundbreaking release, but have a look at footage from Silent Hill III for comparison (which had typically an extremely short viewsing range in its scenes, admittedly). It still doesn't hold a candle to Morrowind when it comes to graphics.
I never played Jade Empire, so I can't say anything about it.
Mass Effect... well, originally released for console only (which is why I noticed it only when Mass Effect 2 came out). Same year as Crysis. As with the comparison between Half-Life and Baldur's Gate, it may be a tad unfair to compare a 1st person shooter with an rpg, but even taking that into account, it's not the same level. The environments in Andromeda (2017) were remarkable, but they were better than those in Skyrim (2011) only in so far as they were more diverse. Skyrim had one setting whereas Andromeda had numerous, depending on which world you were. But the one setting that Skyrim had was actually better than any one in Andromeda.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 10, 2019 20:07:43 GMT
If the limited control scheme of DAI and MEA are typical of Frostbite, I'd rather they used UNITY over Frostbite...
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