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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2019 12:58:14 GMT
Shepard's story was done, finished... with him/her dying in all but one of several ending possibilities. We also watched him/her die even before the choices were made. The imagery in that ending is clear... the choice was made in the Afterlife.... Yet, you're in total denial over that. You go on and on about details changing. The details that change are, really, that Shepard wasn't the hero that history made hiim/her out to be. He/she died before he/she could activate the Crucible. The story is finished. Resurrecting in by re-writing it is a disservice to it. It just tells me that what you really believe is that it wasn't good enough to be finished where Bioware finished it.
Nah... this interpretation could have been valid before EC. Like indocrination theory. Before EC, the calalyst scene was so strange, unintelligible and mystic that it could also be interpreted as pure symbolism, or as an illusion. With the EC, bioware wanted to clarify that what happens was real, answering to all the main unanswered questions that had been legitimately asked by gamers, and showing the consequences of the choiches. Moreover, the decisive factor is the Leviathan dlc: the existence of the catalyst is openly revealed, its function and its objectives anticipated with great clarity. And in the final we see and know the catalyst just as the leviathan described it. however, bioware may decide that the personal story of shepard is over even without derailing into the mysticism and lore-breaking stuff like visions in the afterlife etc. Set the new ME in 2250-2260: shepard could be dead/gone, you can introduce a brand new story and crew of new characters, but still be able to bring back liara, grunt, wrex, edi&legion, samara, javik? (prothean lifespwan?), a very old grumpy joker, for cameos or for more important roles. I like the original endings better than EC for the very reason that the consequences of each choice are more vague. IMO, it was the EC that was the bigger mistake.
However, if we just run with the imagery that IS there in the original and everything we view after Shepard's death reaching for the console is an Afterlife "judgment" of Shepard's desires and motivations, then even the slides depicting Hackett and EDI telling us about rebuilding and such have no actual bearing on real events in the galaxy after Shepard's death. The whole ending sequence becomes a "theoretical debate" that decides how Shepard's soul spends eternity (keeping with a Christian interpretation of the afterlife). IMO, the player's choices, regardless of what they are, are respected because they still decide the fate of Shepard's soul. The fate of the galaxy, however, becomes a singular state... ongoing harvesting. We could then return to it immediately (and just pick up the Reaper fight with a new protagonist) or years or centuries later. The Stargazer scene could even be an old Ryder talking to his/her child about what they found out about Shepard (from archieves) after returning to the galaxy. It can even facilitate a return of Shepard... if his/her body is found lying on the floor in front of the console, then Miranda (or whoever) can, in theory, just rebuild him/her again. How his/her afterloife "experiences" might affect his/her attitudes about the Reapers and possibly affect the course of the harvest can be part of a continuation of the story. (Of course, I'd rather see a story continuation that somehow ties in Andromeda as well, rather than just abandon it.)
Different musings about death and what the Afterlife is like is a constant and undeniable underlying theme in all 3 OT games. In another respect, it continues in ME:A with the many discussions about reincarnation that occur with Jaal and the Angara... as well a the discussions about faith that occur with Suvi. I could also contend that whatever happened in Shepard's afterlife was, in all cases, real for Shepard... but since the wall of death closes all, it could in no way affect whatever happened to his compatriots and the galaxy itself.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 10, 2019 20:05:03 GMT
No more Shepard. Under any circumstances. They f*cked him/her up enough, thankyouverymuch.
Frankly I don't want ANY returning characters. Bioware has a track record of screwing them up between games.
So if Mass Effect were to move back to the Milky Way, they should just set a canon (one that doesn't follow any of the endings) leave what happened to Shepard and the others vague, and start fresh-ish. Explore how things are different now, power has shifted into new hands, borders have changed, etc.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 11, 2019 4:29:05 GMT
I like the original endings better than EC for the very reason that the consequences of each choice are more vague. IMO, it was the EC that was the bigger mistake. Is it possible to uninstall the EC or is it now a requirement? Just curious to see the original endings. Unless they're somewhere on YT.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 11, 2019 6:39:56 GMT
No more Shepard. Under any circumstances. They f*cked him/her up enough, thankyouverymuch. Frankly I don't want ANY returning characters. Bioware has a track record of screwing them up between games. So if Mass Effect were to move back to the Milky Way, they should just set a canon (one that doesn't follow any of the endings) leave what happened to Shepard and the others vague, and start fresh-ish. Explore how things are different now, power has shifted into new hands, borders have changed, etc. What's the advantage of a canon that doesn't follow any of the endings?
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 11, 2019 6:43:40 GMT
I like the original endings better than EC for the very reason that the consequences of each choice are more vague. IMO, it was the EC that was the bigger mistake. Is it possible to uninstall the EC or is it now a requirement? Just curious to see the original endings. Unless they're somewhere on YT. The EC has always been treated as a DLC, so nothing forces you to install it. You'd need to reinstall ME3, since there doesn't seem to be any way to uninstall an installed DLC.
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Post by opuspace on Mar 11, 2019 8:00:10 GMT
I like the original endings better than EC for the very reason that the consequences of each choice are more vague. IMO, it was the EC that was the bigger mistake. Is it possible to uninstall the EC or is it now a requirement? Just curious to see the original endings. Unless they're somewhere on YT. My recollection was that the Catalyst skips over the patronizing explanation, no dragged out goodbye to teammates with the Normandy pulling aside to pick them up, it's much faster paced with very vague implications. Downside is that if you didn't romance Ashley/Kaidan, Liara is always Shepard's last flashback thought.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 11, 2019 11:21:27 GMT
I like the original endings better than EC for the very reason that the consequences of each choice are more vague. IMO, it was the EC that was the bigger mistake. Is it possible to uninstall the EC or is it now a requirement? Just curious to see the original endings. Unless they're somewhere on YT.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 12:54:31 GMT
I like the original endings better than EC for the very reason that the consequences of each choice are more vague. IMO, it was the EC that was the bigger mistake. Is it possible to uninstall the EC or is it now a requirement? Just curious to see the original endings. Unless they're somewhere on YT. Basically, what alanc9 said. It involves uninstalling ME3 and then reinstalling everything but the DLC. Whenever I've done that, I've started all new ME3 save files. That is, I've never tried to revive a save file that was started with the DLC in place though, so I don't know if it not being there would mess up any old files that you have. I suspect it might, since uninstalling the comics in ME2 the same way really messes with all your old saves... even the imported ones that never used the comic.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 11, 2019 14:30:38 GMT
Is it possible to uninstall the EC or is it now a requirement? Just curious to see the original endings. Unless they're somewhere on YT. I didn't really notice much different. It's been a long time since the Starbrat has appeared for me thanks to mods. Was the conversation shortened? As I watch it, I'm reminded of how flawed the thing's solution really is.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 11, 2019 14:35:06 GMT
Is it possible to uninstall the EC or is it now a requirement? Just curious to see the original endings. Unless they're somewhere on YT. My recollection was that the Catalyst skips over the patronizing explanation, no dragged out goodbye to teammates with the Normandy pulling aside to pick them up, it's much faster paced with very vague implications. Downside is that if you didn't romance Ashley/Kaidan, Liara is always Shepard's last flashback thought. Really? Even if you romanced any of the many other LIs?
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Post by opuspace on Mar 11, 2019 14:40:23 GMT
My recollection was that the Catalyst skips over the patronizing explanation, no dragged out goodbye to teammates with the Normandy pulling aside to pick them up, it's much faster paced with very vague implications. Downside is that if you didn't romance Ashley/Kaidan, Liara is always Shepard's last flashback thought. Really? Even if you romanced any of the many other LIs? Especially if you romanced any other LI not Ashley or Kaidan. It's part of what sealed my utter dislike of her. Now, one could argue that they were out of time, but fans said that the flashback scene was so easy to make they could have done it in less than 10 minutes. I romanced Garrus and got...Liara as my Shepard's last thought? Even Shepard's thoughts had the writers forcing her in.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 11, 2019 15:35:42 GMT
No more Shepard. Under any circumstances. They f*cked him/her up enough, thankyouverymuch. Frankly I don't want ANY returning characters. Bioware has a track record of screwing them up between games. So if Mass Effect were to move back to the Milky Way, they should just set a canon (one that doesn't follow any of the endings) leave what happened to Shepard and the others vague, and start fresh-ish. Explore how things are different now, power has shifted into new hands, borders have changed, etc. What's the advantage of a canon that doesn't follow any of the endings? No one can claim favoritism. But you know this already. I'm not really clear why you keep asking the same questions over and over, unless you're just sealioning.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 11, 2019 15:40:33 GMT
My recollection was that the Catalyst skips over the patronizing explanation, no dragged out goodbye to teammates with the Normandy pulling aside to pick them up, it's much faster paced with very vague implications. Downside is that if you didn't romance Ashley/Kaidan, Liara is always Shepard's last flashback thought. Really? Even if you romanced any of the many other LIs? Yes.
The best thing the cut fixed is the flashbacks when Shepard is shooting the tube.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 11, 2019 15:44:47 GMT
Really? Even if you romanced any of the many other LIs? Especially if you romanced any other LI not Ashley or Kaidan. It's part of what sealed my utter dislike of her. Now, one could argue that they were out of time, but fans said that the flashback scene was so easy to make they could have done it in less than 10 minutes. I romanced Garrus and got...Liara as my Shepard's last thought? Even Shepard's thoughts had the writers forcing her in. And if she is killed by Harbinger, she will always be in the 2nd flashback, even with the cut, unless she is romanced, then she will be in the 3rd flashback
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Post by kalreegar on Mar 11, 2019 16:28:44 GMT
What's the advantage of a canon that doesn't follow any of the endings? No one can claim favoritism. But you know this already. I'm not really clear why you keep asking the same questions over and over, unless you're just sealioning. A better solution: do as TW3 or DA:I. Pretend to recognize all the choices, shows some minor cool consequence but in the end establish your new, different canon. No favoritism + fewer complaints about not recognizing the choices.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 11, 2019 16:39:30 GMT
No one can claim favoritism. But you know this already. I'm not really clear why you keep asking the same questions over and over, unless you're just sealioning. A better solution: do as TW3 or DA:I. Pretend to recognize all the choices, shows some minor cool consequence but in the end establish your new, different canon. No favoritism + fewer complaints about not recognizing the choices. If everyone isn't green, it's telling. If the Reapers are hovering overhead, it's telling. If the Reapers aren't hovering overhead, it's telling. I suppose the green could have "faded" and the Reapers sent away (Control) but there definitely can't be a Shepard. I think Shep is one of the bigger draws but if otherwise it could work.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 16:47:30 GMT
I didn't really notice much different. It's been a long time since the Starbrat has appeared for me thanks to mods. Was the conversation shortened? As I watch it, I'm reminded of how flawed the thing's solution really is. Yes, the conversation is shortened. Some of the wording is changed. For example, the consequence of synthesis is clearly that the relays would be destroyed, but it does really state that both organics and synthetics would be changed by the process (combined directly together). Without all the rebuilding related slides, it's easier to just freely imagine what happens with the state of a galaxy after each choice... and in the case of my preferred ending interpretation (that Shepard dies and the Crucible never actually fires), it just works better without there being such a definitive view of the state of the galaxy. It leaves more room for writing forward than the EC did... which, IMO, tried to lock down too much in order to give fans more hope that, regardless of the choice, the galaxy was going to be OK. Fans were quick to latch onto the downsides of the various choices anyways, so all the EC really did was take away "wiggle room" to move forward without undoing something.
I favor undoing all those post-ending scenes equally. To me, it's less damaging to the old story than picking one (even the most popular one) and "tromping on" the rest... and the fans that happen to not prefer that most popular ending. As I said, musings about the afterlife run through the entire story and the imagery is there even in the post-EC endings. So, why not use it? The only thing sacrificed is the idea that Shepard lives... and even that is not completely sacrificed because there then would be a body... that could be resurrected yet again.
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Post by Phantom on Mar 11, 2019 17:45:16 GMT
No more Shepard. Under any circumstances. They f*cked him/her up enough, thankyouverymuch. Frankly I don't want ANY returning characters. Bioware has a track record of screwing them up between games. So if Mass Effect were to move back to the Milky Way, they should just set a canon (one that doesn't follow any of the endings) leave what happened to Shepard and the others vague, and start fresh-ish. Explore how things are different now, power has shifted into new hands, borders have changed, etc. What's the advantage of a canon that doesn't follow any of the endings? There is a possible cop out of the grandfather telling his grandchild that detail changed over time.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 11, 2019 18:12:08 GMT
What's the advantage of a canon that doesn't follow any of the endings? There is a possible cop out of the grandfather telling his grandchild that detail changed over time. Dragon Age is already a prime example of details changing over time leading to a history that is more myth than fact: the Evanuris and the fate of Arlathan, the Veil, the Titans, Flemeth, the fate of the Golden City, the origins of the Tevinter Imperium, Andraste, heavily implied in the origin of the Qunari, I could go on. Heck, in a way, this could make ALL the endings "canon" (plus various headcanons) in that these are all different stories that ended up getting passed down, because NO ONE really knows what happened on the Citadel. And everyone put their own spin on events based on fragmentary information and personal bias. Why isn't everyone green, or where are the Reapers, geth, etc? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Reapers left. Or were destroyed later. The Shepard sent them on a secret mission. Or destroyed them. Or found us unworthy to protect, or are letting us develop our own paths. The greenness didn't take. Our bodies rejected the changes. Or didn't breed true. The effects faded over generations. They were found to be dangerous and scientists removed the effect through gene therapies. Perhaps some people have the effect and others don't. Maybe the greenness never came from the Crucible but some other effect closer to home: genetic engineering to create super-soldiers during the war, the effects of a Reaper bioweapon passed on through the ages. This could explain why. Where are the geth and the quarians? Some say the Reapers wiped them out. Or they vanished after the war. Some say they actually wiped each other out. Or they died out afterwards. Or they made peace and isolated themselves as they rebuilt their homeworld. Someday they may return. Or not. Any of these stories might be true. Or none of them. Or a combination of stories have elements of the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 18:32:27 GMT
There is a possible cop out of the grandfather telling his grandchild that detail changed over time. Dragon Age is already a prime example of details changing over time leading to a history that is more myth than fact: the Evanuris and the fate of Arlathan, the Veil, the Titans, Flemeth, the fate of the Golden City, the origins of the Tevinter Imperium, Andraste, heavily implied in the origin of the Qunari, I could go on. Heck, in a way, this could make ALL the endings "canon" (plus various headcanons) in that these are all different stories that ended up getting passed down, because NO ONE really knows what happened on the Citadel. And everyone put their own spin on events based on fragmentary information and personal bias. Why isn't everyone green, or where are the Reapers, geth, etc? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Reapers left. Or were destroyed later. The Shepard sent them on a secret mission. Or destroyed them. Or found us unworthy to protect, or are letting us develop our own paths. The greenness didn't take. Our bodies rejected the changes. Or didn't breed true. The effects faded over generations. They were found to be dangerous and scientists removed the effect through gene therapies. Perhaps some people have the effect and others don't. Maybe the greenness never came from the Crucible but some other effect closer to home: genetic engineering to create super-soldiers during the war, the effects of a Reaper bioweapon passed on through the ages. This could explain why. Where are the geth and the quarians? Some say the Reapers wiped them out. Or they vanished after the war. Some say they actually wiped each other out. Or they died out afterwards. Or they made peace and isolated themselves as they rebuilt their homeworld. Someday they may return. Or not. Any of these stories might be true. Or none of them. Or a combination of stories have elements of the truth. ...or the truth could be that the Crucible never fired because Shepard died and the harvest continued over the ensuing CENTURIES. That events occurred after Shepard was long out of the picture (some synthesis, some destruction, some control efforts) involving heroic deeds by others (a new protagonist for a later game) that ultimately brought peace and stability to the galaxy... but where the details got mixed up in Shepard's story (due to an understandable lack of records). It wouldn't be the first time that history has combined events across a longer timeline into a shorter epic myth.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 11, 2019 19:24:36 GMT
Dragon Age is already a prime example of details changing over time leading to a history that is more myth than fact: the Evanuris and the fate of Arlathan, the Veil, the Titans, Flemeth, the fate of the Golden City, the origins of the Tevinter Imperium, Andraste, heavily implied in the origin of the Qunari, I could go on. Heck, in a way, this could make ALL the endings "canon" (plus various headcanons) in that these are all different stories that ended up getting passed down, because NO ONE really knows what happened on the Citadel. And everyone put their own spin on events based on fragmentary information and personal bias. Why isn't everyone green, or where are the Reapers, geth, etc? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Reapers left. Or were destroyed later. The Shepard sent them on a secret mission. Or destroyed them. Or found us unworthy to protect, or are letting us develop our own paths. The greenness didn't take. Our bodies rejected the changes. Or didn't breed true. The effects faded over generations. They were found to be dangerous and scientists removed the effect through gene therapies. Perhaps some people have the effect and others don't. Maybe the greenness never came from the Crucible but some other effect closer to home: genetic engineering to create super-soldiers during the war, the effects of a Reaper bioweapon passed on through the ages. This could explain why. Where are the geth and the quarians? Some say the Reapers wiped them out. Or they vanished after the war. Some say they actually wiped each other out. Or they died out afterwards. Or they made peace and isolated themselves as they rebuilt their homeworld. Someday they may return. Or not. Any of these stories might be true. Or none of them. Or a combination of stories have elements of the truth. ...or the truth could be that the Crucible never fired because Shepard died and the harvest continued over the ensuing CENTURIES. That events occurred after Shepard was long out of the picture (some synthesis, some destruction, some control efforts) involving heroic deeds by others (a new protagonist for a later game) that ultimately brought peace and stability to the galaxy... but where the details got mixed up in Shepard's story (due to an understandable lack of records). It wouldn't be the first time that history has combined events across a longer timeline into a shorter epic myth. Or Shepard never existed, and was a composite character based on a number of people and events leading up to and through the Reaper War.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2019 19:38:27 GMT
...or the truth could be that the Crucible never fired because Shepard died and the harvest continued over the ensuing CENTURIES. That events occurred after Shepard was long out of the picture (some synthesis, some destruction, some control efforts) involving heroic deeds by others (a new protagonist for a later game) that ultimately brought peace and stability to the galaxy... but where the details got mixed up in Shepard's story (due to an understandable lack of records). It wouldn't be the first time that history has combined events across a longer timeline into a shorter epic myth. Or Shepard never existed, and was a composite character based on a number of people and events leading up to and through the Reaper War. or... the Reapers and their harvest never existed... and are just an imagined explanation developed over the eons for why we all die and why entire civilizations rise up and then eventually fall and vanish.
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iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Mar 11, 2019 19:44:35 GMT
Or Shepard never existed, and was a composite character based on a number of people and events leading up to and through the Reaper War. or... the Reapers and their harvest never existed... and are just an imagined explanation developed over the eons for why we all die and why entire civilizations rise up and then eventually fall and vanish. Well, SOME sort of disaster needed to have happened to explain why so much history has been lost. But, sure, maybe one of Cerberus' experiments got more destructive than usual and threatened galactic civilization as a whole, and came to be known as "the Reaper War".
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Phantom
2,652
August 2016
deathscepter
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Phantom on Mar 11, 2019 19:58:37 GMT
For the Cyberpunk Horror Fest and having a war element with a Massive Grey vs Black Morality for a Mass Effect game,
I do see the below Mass Effect game as a very Hard M Mass Effect.
Cerberus: Re-Written to be a Smaller than ME3 but using ME3 Elements like Phantoms, Engineers, Nemesis and other Cerberus NPCs and make them more capable and darker version of Grey.
vs
Black Talon: Much Larger Nightfuel organization that puts the Canon Version of Cerberus to shame on their brutality and using Cyber Punk Horror look to them. they are the black and extremely dangerous(each member is worthy of Dark Soul boss battles)
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,934 Likes: 17,652
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Biotic Booty
1031
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Sept 20, 2023 1:37:11 GMT
17,652
dmc1001
9,934
August 2016
dmc1001
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
77
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 11, 2019 20:18:53 GMT
or... the Reapers and their harvest never existed... and are just an imagined explanation developed over the eons for why we all die and why entire civilizations rise up and then eventually fall and vanish. Well, SOME sort of disaster needed to have happened to explain why so much history has been lost. But, sure, maybe one of Cerberus' experiments got more destructive than usual and threatened galactic civilization as a whole, and came to be known as "the Reaper War". I wouldn't want to lost the Reapers. Don't think it's necessary. We've got the Leviathan in the wings just waiting to subjugate the galaxy. Centuries down the road, the Leviathan might have amassed enough numbers to be a threat.
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