linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,179 Likes: 4,063
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 3, 2019 13:56:43 GMT
It's an article about both. Slectively choosing to ephasize one topic as being more important than another is self motivating. The article's title is "How Bioware's Anthem Went Wrong" Yes, long work hours and "crunch" time isnt unique to Bioware. CDPR did it with Witcher 3 and is probably doing it now with Cyberpunk 2077. Rockstar has probably done it since GTA4 and probably even earlier. Difference is....the games they produce wasnt released with a 55 average review scores. Their games become GOTY winners. Why is that? Because of leadership and direction. After MEA the argument here was that it was made by the B team and they only had 18 months of development. Well we now know Anthem was made by the A team and also had like 18 months of development. Why is that? Why and how did Bioware do this 2 times in a row? Whats up with this "Bioware magic"? Why didnt Edmonton take suggestions and feedback from Austin? Is Frostbite the true problem? I understand by solely focusing on employees, people like you get to lump in CDPR and Rockstar because it takes a lot of blame away from Bioware in a "See! Other people do itnto and yet they dont blame them!" Its the classic "I know you are but what am I" argument that brings others into the loop. But at the end of the day, why does Bioware fail while the others that are pointed out make GOTY titles that all gamers love? You really are a solipsistic human aren't you? The failure is clear sure but to ignore other companies because they succeed with the same tactics is the reason why this keeps happening over and over. It's not about you, the consumer, all the time. If you can't see past the smokescreen you post up like every other pundit, I don't know what to tell you I guess. But do not try to minimize this into a singular problem with a singular studio, switch the names around it could literally be anybody, and that is an endemic problem with the culture.
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Post by CHRrOME on Apr 3, 2019 14:03:21 GMT
I mean the problem here with the crunch on what not, is that is not a problem per se if the game released is worth it for most people. And that's bad.
I'll admit it for myself, not talking for anyone else here. I don't care about crunch and overworking conditions if the game ends up being a master piece. Simply because I care more about the product I'm paying for than the people behind it (call me hearthless, but I'm being honest here). I agree that perhaps I should care about their working conditions more, but I have my own problems. Let's call it simple, I don't like it and I feel it for them, I wish it was different, but I can't do anything about it.
It happens in most companies, even in my beloved CDPR, but difference is that they have proper management and whatever else they need to get games done at the end of the day, although if that was to change, I'd be calling them out, after all Bethesda used to be another favorite of mine, so was BW before this shit show.
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Post by majesticjazz on Apr 3, 2019 14:54:13 GMT
The article's title is "How Bioware's Anthem Went Wrong" Yes, long work hours and "crunch" time isnt unique to Bioware. CDPR did it with Witcher 3 and is probably doing it now with Cyberpunk 2077. Rockstar has probably done it since GTA4 and probably even earlier. Difference is....the games they produce wasnt released with a 55 average review scores. Their games become GOTY winners. Why is that? Because of leadership and direction. After MEA the argument here was that it was made by the B team and they only had 18 months of development. Well we now know Anthem was made by the A team and also had like 18 months of development. Why is that? Why and how did Bioware do this 2 times in a row? Whats up with this "Bioware magic"? Why didnt Edmonton take suggestions and feedback from Austin? Is Frostbite the true problem? I understand by solely focusing on employees, people like you get to lump in CDPR and Rockstar because it takes a lot of blame away from Bioware in a "See! Other people do itnto and yet they dont blame them!" Its the classic "I know you are but what am I" argument that brings others into the loop. But at the end of the day, why does Bioware fail while the others that are pointed out make GOTY titles that all gamers love? You really are a solipsistic human aren't you? The failure is clear sure but to ignore other companies because they succeed with the same tactics is the reason why this keeps happening over and over. It's not about you, the consumer, all the time. If you can't see past the smokescreen you post up like every other pundit, I don't know what to tell you I guess. But do not try to minimize this into a singular problem with a singular studio, switch the names around it could literally be anybody, and that is an endemic problem with the culture. I'll just quote what spacev3gan said: It's also why I fear that people will just attack Bioware and EA and leave it at that while ignoring or underreporting the questionable things that other game companies do. I'm hoping this article could spark a discussion about the industry at large but sadly it's just going to be aimed at Bioware for now. Some of the issues we see regarding Bioware's development practices, corporate culture, workplace conditions and hierarchical-heavy structures might be present in the gaming industry as whole. Maybe it even extends to the entire entertainment industry, the software industry, as well as other industries. That is not the point though. The point is that Bioware products are visibly plagued through and through by these issues. Some people are quick to point out that CDPR had some issues, as well as some staff quitting. Some may point out that Bungie had some staff quitting, too. But nothing is to the point we saw from Bioware back in 2017. Aaron Flynn reportedly took 12 staff members with him. That is not normal. Besides, other companies products do not reflect questionable workplace practices. Not to a point what one while playing the game asks oneself "have the devs even played their own game?".Moreover, imagine you are working at the new Battlefield game, and you cannot talk about Call of Duty, or vice-versa. Or you are behind Dota's development but you cannot talk about League of Legends. That is just bizarre. But that is the type of workplace practice that, as far we are aware, is practiced and promoted by Bioware - and no developer other than Bioware. So yeah, it is all about Bioware, my fellow BSNer. Not even about EA, just Bioware.
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 3, 2019 19:01:05 GMT
I was just reading AskAGameDev's blog and here are his opinions on it and it falls into mostly what I was thinking. There are things that happened, but it might not have been as sensational as what the Kotaku article makes it out to be. Its why I don't quickly jump into action after a single report from a single source for it doesn't always mean its 100% accurate. askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/183916724531/so-there-was-an-article-on-kotaku-about-bioware
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Post by spacev3gan on Apr 3, 2019 21:47:34 GMT
I was just reading AskAGameDev's blog and here are his opinions on it and it falls into mostly what I was thinking. There are things that happened, but it might not have been as sensational as what the Kotaku article makes it out to be. Its why I don't quickly jump into action after a single report from a single source for it doesn't always mean its 100% accurate. askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/183916724531/so-there-was-an-article-on-kotaku-about-biowareHe does not really contradict Kotaku's article much, in fact, for the most parts his statements support what was said by Kotaku. One part that they differ is on how bad the Frostbite engine is. Frostbite has reportedly been an issue for Bioware devs for a few years now, and if Jason talked to them, he most likely was exposed to a very negative opinion of such engine. That said, I've always found the whole Bioware vs Frostbite drama a little overblown. I mean, DICE does phenomenal graphics, superb animation and huge maps using that engine. Their games are some of the best-looking and best-optimized in the gaming industry. For instance, Kotaku's article states that giant creatures could not be created in Anthem using that engine. But in Battlefield games, they have tanks, airplanes, ships, trains and even airships! So yeah, I don't really buy it. But on the other hand, I would not be surprised if Bioware devs insist on the engine being a problem as an excuse, it anything. After all, they had 6-7 years to make the game, and its their third game using Frostbite.
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Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 3, 2019 21:50:58 GMT
I was just reading AskAGameDev's blog and here are his opinions on it and it falls into mostly what I was thinking. There are things that happened, but it might not have been as sensational as what the Kotaku article makes it out to be. Its why I don't quickly jump into action after a single report from a single source for it doesn't always mean its 100% accurate. askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/183916724531/so-there-was-an-article-on-kotaku-about-biowareHe does not really contradict Kotaku's article much, in fact, for the most parts his statements support what was said by Kotaku. One part that they differ is on how bad the Frostbite engine is. Frostbite has reportedly been an issue for Bioware devs for a few years now, and if Jason talked to them, he most likely was exposed to a very negative opinion of such engine. That said, I've always found the whole Bioware vs Frostbite drama a little overblown. I mean, DICE does phenomenal graphics, superb animation and huge maps using that engine. Their games are some of the best-looking and best-optimized in the gaming industry. For instance, Kotaku's article states that giant creatures could not be created in Anthem using that engine. But in Battlefield games, they have tanks, airplanes, ships, trains and even airships! So yeah, I don't really buy it. But on the other hand, I would not be surprised if Bioware devs insist on the engine being a problem as an excuse, it anything. After all, they had 6-7 years to make the game, and its their third game using Frostbite. The way I took what was in the Kotaku article and what he said is those issues are there, but not to the degree the Kotaku article implies. The Frostbite is overblown for I think the majority of problems BioWare is having is making the engine handle what they do and if they were to go to Unreal I am pretty sure they would have the same problems. Anthem needed new tools for this is a departure from what they have done in the past so it is the same problem of not being able to develop the tools they need the first time around. Its just the way I took it at least.
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Post by CHRrOME on Apr 3, 2019 22:11:34 GMT
He does not really contradict Kotaku's article much, in fact, for the most parts his statements support what was said by Kotaku. One part that they differ is on how bad the Frostbite engine is. Frostbite has reportedly been an issue for Bioware devs for a few years now, and if Jason talked to them, he most likely was exposed to a very negative opinion of such engine. That said, I've always found the whole Bioware vs Frostbite drama a little overblown. I mean, DICE does phenomenal graphics, superb animation and huge maps using that engine. Their games are some of the best-looking and best-optimized in the gaming industry. For instance, Kotaku's article states that giant creatures could not be created in Anthem using that engine. But in Battlefield games, they have tanks, airplanes, ships, trains and even airships! So yeah, I don't really buy it. But on the other hand, I would not be surprised if Bioware devs insist on the engine being a problem as an excuse, it anything. After all, they had 6-7 years to make the game, and its their third game using Frostbite. I think it shows that is more of what BW is able (and not) to achieve with that engine vs what DICE could. BW simply does not get along with it, they just can't make it work. I'm sure many devs would gladly work with a different engine, and they perhaps even suggested it to the higher ups. But yeah, if the big guys don't listen, every suggestion is talking to the hand.
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tatarforas
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Dejected Mind
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Post by tatarforas on Apr 3, 2019 22:12:13 GMT
Yeahhhh....so after reading that Kotaku article Bioware is pretty much dead unless they go through a serious restructuring of their upper and middle management. 6 years wasted in pre-production holy shit. I mean from the article it even seems like EA and Frostbite weren't really the issues, management just sucks apparently, if not for Mark pulling shit together the game would've been an even bigger disaster. Hell even if DA4 turns out to be good it might not be enough anymore, people have seriously lost faith in Bioware, myself included unfortunately.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Croatsky on Apr 4, 2019 9:33:57 GMT
As stated in Kotaku's article, the issue isn't Frostbite Engine. It is EA's lack of proper support to assist BioWare to learn how to use the engine. As well to make it worse, even taking Frostbite experts off their team for FIFA game. Like shit, this is a bad corporate practice to give more help to most profitable projects instead of projects that need more help.
They should have let BioWare continue on Unreal or give full-on Frostbite support.
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Post by Pounce de León on Apr 4, 2019 9:56:31 GMT
As stated in Kotaku's article, the issue isn't Frostbite Engine. It is EA's lack of proper support to assist BioWare to learn how to use the engine. As well to make it worse, even taking Frostbite experts off their team for FIFA game. Like shit, this is a bad corporate practice to give more help to most profitable projects instead of projects that need more help. They should have let BioWare continue on Unreal or give full-on Frostbite support. Ye, you probably get more support when licensing 3rd party engine.
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Post by Superhik on Apr 4, 2019 10:23:45 GMT
Like shit, this is a bad corporate practice to give more help to most profitable projects instead of projects that need more help. Well, that's capitalism. You always go where the $$$ leads.
This dude had a different idea when it comes to game engines
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Apr 4, 2019 13:04:06 GMT
I am impressed, many more of you have joined me in the Yes vote. We have almost caught up to the BDF
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Post by tatarforas on Apr 4, 2019 14:28:12 GMT
I am impressed, many more of you have joined me in the Yes vote. We have almost caught up to the BDF I don't think they're completely dead yet, but they will be if they don't do something about managment. I still can't get over the fact that 6 years was wasted in pre production, I think of myself as an extremely skilled procrastinator but even I couldn't pull off something like that. Frankly I'm of the opinion that a great deal of their senior management should be fired or at the very least severely demoted. What they did was unacceptable.
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Post by tatann on Apr 4, 2019 16:15:26 GMT
I am impressed, many more of you have joined me in the Yes vote. We have almost caught up to the BDF I'm a proud first day yes-er :-)
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Apr 4, 2019 16:21:46 GMT
I just want to give a shout out to my hardcore Gauntlet ™️ voters out there, you make me smile
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Post by ahglock on Apr 4, 2019 16:22:44 GMT
It's also why I fear that people will just attack Bioware and EA and leave it at that while ignoring or underreporting the questionable things that other game companies do. I'm hoping this article could spark a discussion about the industry at large but sadly it's just going to be aimed at Bioware for now. I think that's partly because right now the reaction is to the stress and fatigue and terrible morale as a symptom of terrible management. There will always be some level of stress and crunch in any complicated field with deadlines, that isn't unique to BioWare, but BioWare's issues with management seem to be continuing for release after release and that does set them apart. On a morale side people are generally more willing to deal and cope with crunch time if it feels like a normal part of a deadline and the end of completing a fulfilling task. If it’s self generated due to management fucking off for 6 years giving you no direction and the crunch time is covering for their fuck ups and shoveling out a piece of crap it’s a different level of stress and there is no feeling of accomplishment award.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Apr 4, 2019 19:51:12 GMT
I think that's partly because right now the reaction is to the stress and fatigue and terrible morale as a symptom of terrible management. There will always be some level of stress and crunch in any complicated field with deadlines, that isn't unique to BioWare, but BioWare's issues with management seem to be continuing for release after release and that does set them apart. On a morale side people are generally more willing to deal and cope with crunch time if it feels like a normal part of a deadline and the end of completing a fulfilling task. If it’s self generated due to management fucking off for 6 years giving you no direction and the crunch time is covering for their fuck ups and shoveling out a piece of crap it’s a different level of stress and there is no feeling of accomplishment award. QFE
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Post by xrayspex73 on Apr 4, 2019 20:53:00 GMT
After the Kotaku article, I have changed my vote to a solid "YES".
DA4 has no hope to regain the past glory of Biower.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,179 Likes: 4,063
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 4, 2019 21:53:16 GMT
You really are a solipsistic human aren't you? The failure is clear sure but to ignore other companies because they succeed with the same tactics is the reason why this keeps happening over and over. It's not about you, the consumer, all the time. If you can't see past the smokescreen you post up like every other pundit, I don't know what to tell you I guess. But do not try to minimize this into a singular problem with a singular studio, switch the names around it could literally be anybody, and that is an endemic problem with the culture. I'll just quote what spacev3gan said: Some of the issues we see regarding Bioware's development practices, corporate culture, workplace conditions and hierarchical-heavy structures might be present in the gaming industry as whole. Maybe it even extends to the entire entertainment industry, the software industry, as well as other industries. That is not the point though. The point is that Bioware products are visibly plagued through and through by these issues. Some people are quick to point out that CDPR had some issues, as well as some staff quitting. Some may point out that Bungie had some staff quitting, too. But nothing is to the point we saw from Bioware back in 2017. Aaron Flynn reportedly took 12 staff members with him. That is not normal. Besides, other companies products do not reflect questionable workplace practices. Not to a point what one while playing the game asks oneself "have the devs even played their own game?".Moreover, imagine you are working at the new Battlefield game, and you cannot talk about Call of Duty, or vice-versa. Or you are behind Dota's development but you cannot talk about League of Legends. That is just bizarre. But that is the type of workplace practice that, as far we are aware, is practiced and promoted by Bioware - and no developer other than Bioware. So yeah, it is all about Bioware, my fellow BSNer. Not even about EA, just Bioware. I saw that, id argue hes wrong to dismiss or prioritize companies with an endemic problem ultimately. The simple truth is that allowing one company to get away with those practices over another because of quality of product doesn't change the practices or the culture it's at best, justifying the behavior when the results are good, at worst, hypocritical bullshit due to personal prejudices.
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 4, 2019 22:05:13 GMT
On a morale side people are generally more willing to deal and cope with crunch time if it feels like a normal part of a deadline and the end of completing a fulfilling task. If it’s self generated due to management fucking off for 6 years giving you no direction and the crunch time is covering for their fuck ups and shoveling out a piece of crap it’s a different level of stress and there is no feeling of accomplishment award. Yes, definitely! Again I can draw parallels to my own workplace where most of the overtime happens because they assign most of the people too soon when there is little to do. We tell the person in charge but they don't care. The project gets extended because it's a mess and now we don't have enough people anymore... OR they request overtime preemptively when there's little to do. Which is even more frustrating. So yeah, sit around for weeks and months waiting for the project to be in a healthy place for us to work efficiently. They give us pointless tasks to keep us "busy" on paper. And then shit needs to get rushed because our budget is almost used up already. It's been this shitty for 2-3 years now. Things haven't been good for about 5. We are told it needs to be this way now... Right. I guess the bean counters know best. But efficient it is not. That much I can tell you. What this method does is create frustration and apathy. We go over the same shit ten times because it still keeps changing. Takes about 3 times longer now than it needs to be to wrap up projects. But since my department provides a service, we can bill our horrifically inefficient workflow to our clueless clients. And at the end of the day that's all that matters now to management. LOOK busy! At least our mismanagement is not the kind that ends in crunch even though the situation is causing all kinds of stress issues for the people who need to fight with those in charge all the time over their nonsense schedules. It's often quite the opposite for my team. Bored our of our minds. Nobody is willing to do anything for the company for free anymore. Least of all go to work sick. We're all dreaming of the day the department goes up in flames as a result of all this incompetence. So I can totally understand the sentiment Bioware had after DAI. My awesome coworkers are the only reason I'm sticking around. Sorry, needed to vent I guess.
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Sanunes
Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 5, 2019 8:13:05 GMT
I'll just quote what spacev3gan said: I saw that, id argue hes wrong to dismiss or prioritize companies with an endemic problem ultimately. The simple truth is that allowing one company to get away with those practices over another because of quality of product doesn't change the practices or the culture it's at best, justifying the behavior when the results are good, at worst, hypocritical bullshit due to personal prejudices. I was just reading the latest from AskAGameDev and it sounds like the "old BioWare" that people are pining over right now did the exact same thing for years. BioWare has the reputation of being a crunch studio for months before release and any delay in release that time is always done under crunch. If anything a lot of what was said in the most recent article sounds like this is a common thing for BioWare going way back. So BioWare has been able to survive until now working with these conditions I really don't see it changing and yes there are going to be people that are upset at what happened, I just hope they treat all other developers the same way if they are doing the same conditions. For I am pretty sure that people who worked on RDR2 that quit due to the crunch could say the exact same thing these people from BioWare are saying and probably with the turnover reported from CDPR they could be saying the same things as well. It was said that it will be expected to lose 5% to 10% of the staff for various reasons after release including crunch, but the question is what does the other 90% to 95% have to say since we only got one side of the story from Kotaku.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by tatann on Apr 5, 2019 12:29:18 GMT
I saw that, id argue hes wrong to dismiss or prioritize companies with an endemic problem ultimately. The simple truth is that allowing one company to get away with those practices over another because of quality of product doesn't change the practices or the culture it's at best, justifying the behavior when the results are good, at worst, hypocritical bullshit due to personal prejudices. I was just reading the latest from AskAGameDev and it sounds like the "old BioWare" that people are pining over right now did the exact same thing for years. BioWare has the reputation of being a crunch studio for months before release and any delay in release that time is always done under crunch. If anything a lot of what was said in the most recent article sounds like this is a common thing for BioWare going way back. So BioWare has been able to survive until now working with these conditions I really don't see it changing and yes there are going to be people that are upset at what happened, I just hope they treat all other developers the same way if they are doing the same conditions. For I am pretty sure that people who worked on RDR2 that quit due to the crunch could say the exact same thing these people from BioWare are saying and probably with the turnover reported from CDPR they could be saying the same things as well. It was said that it will be expected to lose 5% to 10% of the staff for various reasons after release including crunch, but the question is what does the other 90% to 95% have to say since we only got one side of the story from Kotaku. I think the main issue is that the other studios (CDPR, Rockstar, "old Bioware") put out great games (The Witcher, RDR2, Mass Effect) while "new Bioware" put out, well, Mass Effect Andromeda and Anthem
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N6
Just a flip of the coin.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Prime Posts: 4392
Prime Likes: 882
Posts: 5,899 Likes: 8,927
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Apr 23, 2024 14:55:03 GMT
8,927
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Just a flip of the coin.
5,899
Sept 13, 2016 11:51:12 GMT
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sanunes
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 5, 2019 13:53:09 GMT
I was just reading the latest from AskAGameDev and it sounds like the "old BioWare" that people are pining over right now did the exact same thing for years. BioWare has the reputation of being a crunch studio for months before release and any delay in release that time is always done under crunch. If anything a lot of what was said in the most recent article sounds like this is a common thing for BioWare going way back. So BioWare has been able to survive until now working with these conditions I really don't see it changing and yes there are going to be people that are upset at what happened, I just hope they treat all other developers the same way if they are doing the same conditions. For I am pretty sure that people who worked on RDR2 that quit due to the crunch could say the exact same thing these people from BioWare are saying and probably with the turnover reported from CDPR they could be saying the same things as well. It was said that it will be expected to lose 5% to 10% of the staff for various reasons after release including crunch, but the question is what does the other 90% to 95% have to say since we only got one side of the story from Kotaku. I think the main issue is that the other studios (CDPR, Rockstar, "old Bioware") put out great games (The Witcher, RDR2, Mass Effect) while "new Bioware" put out, well, Mass Effect Andromeda and Anthem So because they don't like the game is why they are standing up for the employees and not because the employees are being treated poorly? If that is the case makes it hard for me to side with people taking that approach.
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Post by river82 on Apr 5, 2019 13:58:54 GMT
I saw that, id argue hes wrong to dismiss or prioritize companies with an endemic problem ultimately. The simple truth is that allowing one company to get away with those practices over another because of quality of product doesn't change the practices or the culture it's at best, justifying the behavior when the results are good, at worst, hypocritical bullshit due to personal prejudices. I was just reading the latest from AskAGameDev and it sounds like the "old BioWare" that people are pining over right now did the exact same thing for years. BioWare has the reputation of being a crunch studio for months before release and any delay in release that time is always done under crunch. If anything a lot of what was said in the most recent article sounds like this is a common thing for BioWare going way back. So BioWare has been able to survive until now working with these conditions I really don't see it changing and yes there are going to be people that are upset at what happened, I just hope they treat all other developers the same way if they are doing the same conditions. For I am pretty sure that people who worked on RDR2 that quit due to the crunch could say the exact same thing these people from BioWare are saying and probably with the turnover reported from CDPR they could be saying the same things as well. It was said that it will be expected to lose 5% to 10% of the staff for various reasons after release including crunch, but the question is what does the other 90% to 95% have to say since we only got one side of the story from Kotaku. It's not sustainable for many reasons. I'll name just one because it's 1AM over here. The bigger a company gets they slower they move, for example before voice acting and motion capture it was very easy to change lines, now it's very difficult. Nothing's in just one studio anymore, stuff is being sent to multiple studios, and engine problems sent to teams outside Bioware. This whole concept of "it worked when we were a 40 person company, it'll work now that we're 800 people and everything involves a fair amount of red tape" is a "shake-your-head in dismay" idea. Also it's not healthy for employees. That's the most important thing. But it's also this last minute rush is a lot harder to make work in their present environment ... also bad for employees
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Post by 10k on Apr 5, 2019 14:17:02 GMT
I mean the problem here with the crunch on what not, is that is not a problem per se if the game released is worth it for most people. And that's bad. I'll admit it for myself, not talking for anyone else here. I don't care about crunch and overworking conditions if the game ends up being a master piece. Simply because I care more about the product I'm paying for than the people behind it (call me hearthless, but I'm being honest here). I agree that perhaps I should care about their working conditions more, but I have my own problems. Let's call it simple, I don't like it and I feel it for them, I wish it was different, but I can't do anything about it. It happens in most companies, even in my beloved CDPR, but difference is that they have proper management and whatever else they need to get games done at the end of the day, although if that was to change, I'd be calling them out, after all Bethesda used to be another favorite of mine, so was BW before this shit show. This right here I agree with, because it's not just the gaming industry that have issues with overtime or I guess crunch time. I work 12 hours a day 4 days a week, this is my normal; 48 hours a week. But I barely work my normal because of something called mandatory holdover which forces us to work an additional 5 hours. So most days I tend to do 17 hours instead of my normal 12. I would like to assume most people get into game development because they like it, and I would also like to assume that most people who are in game development know about the infamous crunch periods. The fact is these people know what they were getting into, and so did I. It's how the gaming industry is as a whole, and it's how EMS is as a whole. If I don't like the job or my hours or how my company overall run things I can leave for somewhere a little better. But no matter where I go, there will be mandatory hold over hours. It's same with the game industry. No matter where these people go there will be crunch time, the crunch may just be more bearable. If they dislike it so much they wish they didn't have to do it at all, then form your own indie studio where crunch doesn't exist. These people have options. Simple fact is yes CDPR do have these issues as well, but it's not affecting their performance. At the end of the day these are companies that need to make money period.
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