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Post by Space Cowboy on Mar 12, 2019 16:18:25 GMT
To OP: both. Good luck to them. What I don’t get about this sort of game: Say you play for s couple of weeks. Finish the bare bones story early, grind to get better loot do you can keep moving to higher difficulty and then... run out of challenge or stuff to do. Ok fine. More is coming right? But what form will that new content take. Will it be designed for people like you who already have max loot? What about people who started, did the story, stopped and waited for new story? They might only be in greens or blues. So no, the content has to be designed to support both groups, plus new players who play the next chapter immediately after the first. I don’t see the appeal in any of those scenarios, but I’m not playing.
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officerdonnz
N3
The Fat Controller
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: OfficerDonNZ
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Post by officerdonnz on Mar 12, 2019 16:28:12 GMT
Bioware has never been known for their loot systems and Anthem's loot system is a mess. They've made it far too complex and purely RNG based and it's coming back to bite them. I'm not really surprised though, been there done that already with SWTOR and Galactic Command. Going by my experience with that it's going to to take them at least six months maybe even up to a year before we get something resembling a decent loot system. I don't think Anthem has that kind of time.
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 12, 2019 16:55:48 GMT
To OP: both. Good luck to them. What I don’t get about this sort of game: Say you play for s couple of weeks. Finish the bare bones story early, grind to get better loot do you can keep moving to higher difficulty and then... run out of challenge or stuff to do. Ok fine. More is coming right? But what form will that new content take. Will it be designed for people like you who already have max loot? What about people who started, did the story, stopped and waited for new story? They might only be in greens or blues. So no, the content has to be designed to support both groups, plus new players who play the next chapter immediately after the first. I don’t see the appeal in any of those scenarios, but I’m not playing. There's always gonna be the "starter activities". Let's call them like that. Maybe that could be the story line. Ideally, the story would introduce new game mechanics or unlock new abilities as you progress acting like introduction / tutorial.
New content for this section wouldn't drop that often.
Rather new javelin: Along with story mission to make people familiar with it. Maybe a story line, where you had to fulfil a number of quests. Maybe you get to play new javelin once in the story, but need to craft it later for your own. You get excited and cant wait to unlock it for self.
New content can take so many forms. Of course the engine gotta support it. Short story: Is not just gun and frame to drop as new content. And is for intermediate and advanced players in general.
I can only recommend looking at Warframe to get an idea how this looter shootering works. Is a very good example to make quite a great game over time.
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Post by shinobiwan on Mar 12, 2019 17:00:03 GMT
To OP: both. Good luck to them. What I don’t get about this sort of game: Say you play for s couple of weeks. Finish the bare bones story early, grind to get better loot do you can keep moving to higher difficulty and then... run out of challenge or stuff to do. Ok fine. More is coming right? But what form will that new content take. Will it be designed for people like you who already have max loot? What about people who started, did the story, stopped and waited for new story? They might only be in greens or blues. So no, the content has to be designed to support both groups, plus new players who play the next chapter immediately after the first. I don’t see the appeal in any of those scenarios, but I’m not playing. Difficulty levels would solve this in theory, albeit not in the form and with the loot structure currently implemented.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Mar 12, 2019 17:23:24 GMT
To OP: both. Good luck to them. What I don’t get about this sort of game: Say you play for s couple of weeks. Finish the bare bones story early, grind to get better loot do you can keep moving to higher difficulty and then... run out of challenge or stuff to do. Ok fine. More is coming right? But what form will that new content take. Will it be designed for people like you who already have max loot? What about people who started, did the story, stopped and waited for new story? They might only be in greens or blues. So no, the content has to be designed to support both groups, plus new players who play the next chapter immediately after the first. I don’t see the appeal in any of those scenarios, but I’m not playing. There's always gonna be the "starter activities". Let's call them like that. Maybe that could be the story line. Ideally, the story would introduce new game mechanics or unlock new abilities as you progress acting like introduction / tutorial.
New content for this section wouldn't drop that often.
Rather new javelin: Along with story mission to make people familiar with it. Maybe a story line, where you had to fulfil a number of quests. Maybe you get to play new javelin once in the story, but need to craft it later for your own. You get excited and cant wait to unlock it for self.
New content can take so many forms. Of course the engine gotta support it. Short story: Is not just gun and frame to drop as new content. And is for intermediate and advanced players in general.
I can only recommend looking at Warframe to get an idea how this looter shootering works. Is a very good example to make quite a great game over time.
Too bad the story hasn’t progressed like that so far. Unlocking javelins via story might have been more engaging from the start
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Mobius Y
N3
The Legend Continues
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
XBL Gamertag: Mobius Y
PSN: Mobius_Y
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Post by Mobius Y on Mar 12, 2019 17:33:04 GMT
The OP shows such a misunderstanding of the situation that it's hard even to respond. Well, I'm getting MW's pretty regularly and the occasional Legendary. (GM1) (1-3 of those in the average Stronghold & Leg contract) I thought that was the rate expected. The issue is the huge pool of possibilities of inscriptions, and the super small likelihood you get a drop with awesome or even good inscriptions.
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Post by Pounce de León on Mar 12, 2019 17:34:10 GMT
There's always gonna be the "starter activities". Let's call them like that. Maybe that could be the story line. Ideally, the story would introduce new game mechanics or unlock new abilities as you progress acting like introduction / tutorial.
New content for this section wouldn't drop that often.
Rather new javelin: Along with story mission to make people familiar with it. Maybe a story line, where you had to fulfil a number of quests. Maybe you get to play new javelin once in the story, but need to craft it later for your own. You get excited and cant wait to unlock it for self.
New content can take so many forms. Of course the engine gotta support it. Short story: Is not just gun and frame to drop as new content. And is for intermediate and advanced players in general.
I can only recommend looking at Warframe to get an idea how this looter shootering works. Is a very good example to make quite a great game over time.
Too bad the story hasn’t progressed like that so far. Unlocking javelins via story might have been more engaging from the start I'd say is a no-brainer if they introduce new javelin, or new gameplay mechanics, but that's just me.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 12, 2019 17:38:30 GMT
Thus far I have had a number of masterworks come into me, and I am not even level 30 yet, so the issue over the "lack" of loot I find a bit absurd. At the moment it's basically playing like Borderlands 2 to me; you get lucky if you get something good with the perfect "god roll" stats as you call them.
It seems the biggest problem is finding a reason to continue beyond Grandmaster 1 though. If the issue is RNG, the question I have is would the game not really be fixed by doubling the drop rates? If anything it becomes a bigger grind that would alienate more. Wouldn't a better solution be to increase the concentration of loot drops in certain areas? So strongholds on Grandmaster 2, you get Legendary/Masterworks guaranteed. Whereas Freeplay on Grandmaster 2 you have lower chances for guaranteed top tier items?
On that token, what would be the incentive of playing then for that grind? I stopped Borderlands after I made six characters; never went into the high level of the game all that much because once you hit a certain point it's just nothing but grinding.
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Post by acehilator on Mar 12, 2019 18:03:30 GMT
linksocarina If you are not level 30, you haven't even experienced the part where this game falls apart. To anwer your questions: 1. Loot quality in this game is so bad that it would not be fixed by setting all drops at level 30 to be Legendary. 2. The grind is the game. If you don't "get" this concept, you should just realize that looter shooters are not for you and move on. (plenty of amazing games out there!)
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 12, 2019 18:15:14 GMT
linksocarina If you are not level 30, you haven't even experienced the part where this game falls apart. To anwer your questions: 1. Loot quality in this game is so bad that it would not be fixed by setting all drops at level 30 to be Legendary. 2. The grind is the game. If you don't "get" this concept, you should just realize that looter shooters are not for you and move on. (plenty of amazing games out there!) You say that as if it disqualifies discussion. Your answers do not satisfy my question either, they instead seem to blow it off completely as unimportant. Quality, for example is vaguely defined by most of you. I found a better explanation to that by researching it myself, such as the gear number modifiers swinging wildly too low or high. That also is something that likely can be fixed fairly easily, since pumping up weapon stats from 1% to 100% or whatever a good number is would need a patch and testing. I also get the concept of what the game is, but I also disagree with the results and have a need to point out that folks can play a 'looter shooter' for more reasons than a grind. The best gear to play the game to a wall seems like a trivial exercise without something to back it up, and perhaps the one reason I am sticking around still is not post-game grinding, but post-game story developments. So BioWare sunk it's claws into me that way, to say the least. This is also the same reasons why folks who play RPG's for different reasons still enjoy them; that includes the folks who grind in those games for the best gear or min-max to death to beat the game. You know, the bane of any gamemasters existence. If you have such a diversity of folks who play a game that was once mapped out to a Bartle Test, I think we can safely say that asking for the 'grind' in Anthem to be improved is not the only way folks can enjoy themselves. And to that token, what BioWare seems to value more in terms of their design philosophy.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Mar 12, 2019 18:24:30 GMT
So, upon further contemplation, a thought has occured to me. I think the loot problem does indeed go beyond a lack of good drops. I think a core problem, is that the current rarity model is simply not sustainable. Anthem has put themselves into a box when it comes to their gear design. The reality is that their rarity system (common, uncommon, rare, epic, masterwork, legendary) has absolutely 0 relevance to the game. The truth is that Anthem has power levels, and rarity merely describes a section of power levels. This means that in the future either ALL ITEMS will forever be considered Legendary when they add more power or they will have to add new rarities like Artifact in the future just to continue naming sections of loot. Anthem rarity system is not designed for long term game progression. I think part of the problem, is we hate the current loot drop rate because it is impossible for Rare or Epic to ever be an increase over masterwork or legendary.
We should have
Power Level 70 Common w/ 0 Inscriptions
Power Level 70 Uncommon w/ 1 Inscription
Power Level 70 Rare w/ 2 Inscriptions
Power Level 70 Epic w/ 3 Inscriptions
Power Level 70 Masterwork w/ 4 Inscriptions and bonus effect
Power Level 70 Legendary w/ 5 High End Inscriptions and bonus effect
With this system all rarities are still relevant at every level in some way. An item at Power Level 80 Common should have base stats that make it better than the Power Level 70 Legendary possibly or at least the Epic. If this system was the case then you could have eternally progressing power levels and have low drop rate chances for masterworks and legendary. I don't know, maybe I'm way off base here. Maybe they've already realized this problem and that is why they've said it'll take a few months. All I know for sure, is the Loot System is a complete mess, and I would love to know why that is.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,179 Likes: 4,063
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 12, 2019 18:28:46 GMT
So, upon further contemplation, a thought has occured to me. I think the loot problem does indeed go beyond a lack of good drops. I think a core problem, is that the current rarity model is simply not sustainable. Anthem has put themselves into a box when it comes to their gear design. The reality is that their rarity system (common, uncommon, rare, epic, masterwork, legendary) has absolutely 0 relevance to the game. The truth is that Anthem has power levels, and rarity merely describes a section of power levels. This means that in the future either ALL ITEMS will forever be considered Legendary when they add more power or they will have to add new rarities like Artifact in the future just to continue naming sections of loot. Anthem rarity system is not designed for long term game progression. I think part of the problem, is we hate the current loot drop rate because it is impossible for Rare or Epic to ever be an increase over masterwork or legendary. We should have Power Level 70 Common w/ 0 Inscriptions Power Level 70 Uncommon w/ 1 Inscription Power Level 70 Rare w/ 2 Inscriptions Power Level 70 Epic w/ 3 Inscriptions Power Level 70 Masterwork w/ 4 Inscriptions and bonus effect Power Level 70 Legendary w/ 5 High End Inscriptions and bonus effect With this system all rarities are still relevant at every level in some way. An item at Power Level 80 Common should have base stats that make it better than the Power Level 70 Legendary possibly or at least the Epic. If this system was the case then you could have eternally progressing power levels and have low drop rate chances for masterworks and legendary. I don't know, maybe I'm way off base here. Maybe they've already realized this problem and that is why they've said it'll take a few months. All I know for sure, is the Loot System is a complete mess, and I would love to know why that is. Sounds like the additions of Seraph and Pearlescent weapons in Borderlands 2 when it comes to adding rarities. That game also spewed a lot of commons and uncommons at high levels at you too. What you posted above can work though, would be a decent rebalance when they implement
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Post by therevanchist25 on Mar 12, 2019 18:30:30 GMT
So, upon further contemplation, a thought has occured to me. I think the loot problem does indeed go beyond a lack of good drops. I think a core problem, is that the current rarity model is simply not sustainable. Anthem has put themselves into a box when it comes to their gear design. The reality is that their rarity system (common, uncommon, rare, epic, masterwork, legendary) has absolutely 0 relevance to the game. The truth is that Anthem has power levels, and rarity merely describes a section of power levels. This means that in the future either ALL ITEMS will forever be considered Legendary when they add more power or they will have to add new rarities like Artifact in the future just to continue naming sections of loot. Anthem rarity system is not designed for long term game progression. I think part of the problem, is we hate the current loot drop rate because it is impossible for Rare or Epic to ever be an increase over masterwork or legendary. We should have Power Level 70 Common w/ 0 Inscriptions Power Level 70 Uncommon w/ 1 Inscription Power Level 70 Rare w/ 2 Inscriptions Power Level 70 Epic w/ 3 Inscriptions Power Level 70 Masterwork w/ 4 Inscriptions and bonus effect Power Level 70 Legendary w/ 5 High End Inscriptions and bonus effect With this system all rarities are still relevant at every level in some way. An item at Power Level 80 Common should have base stats that make it better than the Power Level 70 Legendary possibly or at least the Epic. If this system was the case then you could have eternally progressing power levels and have low drop rate chances for masterworks and legendary. I don't know, maybe I'm way off base here. Maybe they've already realized this problem and that is why they've said it'll take a few months. All I know for sure, is the Loot System is a complete mess, and I would love to know why that is. Sounds like the additions of Seraph and Pearlescent weapons in Borderlands 2.... I wouldn't know anything about that, I never played Borderlands, and I never will. Just giving observations based on years of MMO experience.
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Post by acehilator on Mar 12, 2019 18:30:44 GMT
linksocarina It does not disqualify discussion on a theoretical level, but it makes it extremely difficult to describe the position and feeling of players that have progressed substantially further than you adequately, because psychological factors are pretty important for loot-based games. Also I hope that your research showed that inscription modifier spread being too high is only one of several factors to this problem, and one of the rather more unimportant ones. If you really want to keep playing this game for "post-game story developments", I don't know what to tell you. And the problem with the (pen&paper) RPG analogy is that no computer game can ever hope to mimic the spread of available playstyles for p&p games. So to refine the analogy, playing a looter shooter is like playing an action-oriented ruleset (like D&D 4.0) and decide to play a "hardcore - no holds barred - no quarter given - can't have enough cheese" type of campaign.
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N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,179 Likes: 4,063
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 12, 2019 18:37:52 GMT
linksocarina It does not disqualify discussion on a theoretical level, but it makes it extremely difficult to describe the position and feeling of players that have progressed substantially further than you adequately, because psychological factors are pretty important for loot-based games. Also I hope that your research showed that inscription modifier spread being too high is only one of several factors to this problem, and one of the rather more unimportant ones. If you really want to keep playing this game for "post-game story developments", I don't know what to tell you. And the problem with the (pen&paper) RPG analogy is that no computer game can ever hope to mimic the spread of available playstyles for p&p games. So to refine the analogy, playing a looter shooter is like playing an action-oriented ruleset (like D&D 4.0) and decide to play a "hardcore - no holds barred - no quarter given - can't have enough cheese" type of campaign. And yet folks get mad if your build is off in World of Warcraft ever so slightly...the problem I have I guess is how foreign that notion is to me. People take it way too seriously and it honestly is more of a problem in a co-op experience than anything else. I am also not sure if that analogy is meant to be a slight or not, as you can play the hardcore campaign with 4th edition rules. I've done it before fairly easily actually, it's a question of getting the right parts of the design together. What is more of a problem is folks expecting the action-oriented game over the story-driven one, which I am only speculating is where the impasse is. To put in Anthem terms, it would be changing aspects of the game to meet the demands of the community, and not for what BioWare had planned. Which is fine, but also contrasting playstyle philosophies in some ways.
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Post by Kenny Bania on Mar 12, 2019 19:21:55 GMT
This thread is quite the embarrassment. OP clearly doesn't understand the genre. Explains a lot really.
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We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
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Post by bshep on Mar 12, 2019 20:58:11 GMT
Your bait posting needs some work. I think both need to be satisfied. Anyway, I will wait until the update they will release next week to see how the loot system will be with those elysium chests before making futher comments. I get the feeling the surplus of chests will be used to counterbalance the low odds/random bonus.
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Post by lennybusker on Mar 12, 2019 21:40:06 GMT
This thread is quite the embarrassment. OP clearly doesn't understand the genre. Explains a lot really. Kind of explains those cringey "Rah Rah Bioware/haters are just salty" tweets though. For a lot of people the genre of game they're looking for is literally "Made by Bioware." For some people that's just all they need. 8/10, great game, played 800 hours, loved it.
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Post by Dekibra on Mar 12, 2019 21:41:24 GMT
Your bait posting needs some work. I think both need to be satisfied. Anyway, I will wait until the update they will release next week to see how the loot system will be with those elysium chests before making futher comments. I get the feeling the surplus of chests will be used to counterbalance the low odds/random bonus. So then you’ll still get no/shitty loot - but at least you’ll look good Sorry, couldn‘t resist
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Post by coldwetn0se on Mar 12, 2019 22:51:49 GMT
If we had a way to "re-roll", at least one Inscription using materials/embers/currency/any-of-these-combos (think The Division or Diablo 3), it would help. At least it would, in my limited looter game experience.
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Spectr61
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Origin: Spectr61
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Post by Spectr61 on Mar 12, 2019 23:36:19 GMT
Bioware has never been known for their loot systems and Anthem's loot system is a mess. They've made it far too complex and purely RNG based and it's coming back to bite them. I'm not really surprised though, been there done that already with SWTOR and Galactic Command. Going by my experience with that it's going to to take them at least six months maybe even up to a year before we get something resembling a decent loot system. I don't think Anthem has that kind of time. Anyone remember that dark day of MEAMP's "Lootpocalypse"? Or the posts/bitching about getting to DAIMP's Crescent Sword? Or way back to the differences in hours to a ME3MP "maxed manifest"? When has Biower done loot good?
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Post by river82 on Mar 12, 2019 23:42:24 GMT
Bioware has never been known for their loot systems and Anthem's loot system is a mess. They've made it far too complex and purely RNG based and it's coming back to bite them. I'm not really surprised though, been there done that already with SWTOR and Galactic Command. Going by my experience with that it's going to to take them at least six months maybe even up to a year before we get something resembling a decent loot system. I don't think Anthem has that kind of time. Anyone remember that dark day of MEAMP's "Lootpocalypse"? Or the posts/bitching about getting to DAIMP's Crescent Sword? Or way back to the differences in hours to a ME3MP "maxed manifest"? When has Biower done loot good? The only games I consider to have good loot were the Baldur's Gate games, and that was a long time ago back when Bioware were a completely different studio. In fact the loot system and the economy in general in Mass Effect 1 was completely, irrevocably broken ... so they decided to do away with it in the sequels. Maybe Bioware can hire some ex-Blizzard devs to come in and help design loot?
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officerdonnz
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The Fat Controller
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Post by officerdonnz on Mar 12, 2019 23:48:18 GMT
Bioware has never been known for their loot systems and Anthem's loot system is a mess. They've made it far too complex and purely RNG based and it's coming back to bite them. I'm not really surprised though, been there done that already with SWTOR and Galactic Command. Going by my experience with that it's going to to take them at least six months maybe even up to a year before we get something resembling a decent loot system. I don't think Anthem has that kind of time. Anyone remember that dark day of MEAMP's "Lootpocalypse"? Or the posts/bitching about getting to DAIMP's Crescent Sword? Or way back to the differences in hours to a ME3MP "maxed manifest"? When has Biower done loot good? Well the loot in BG 1 and 2 was good. The loot tables actually made sense and the really good stuff was all static so you'd run across it eventually. Same holds more or less true for NWN and DA:O. Though now Bioware have lost their way. There was a time they knew how to do loot but now....
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Spectr61
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Post by Spectr61 on Mar 12, 2019 23:49:30 GMT
Anyone remember that dark day of MEAMP's "Lootpocalypse"? Or the posts/bitching about getting to DAIMP's Crescent Sword? Or way back to the differences in hours to a ME3MP "maxed manifest"? When has Biower done loot good? The only games I consider to have good loot were the Baldur's Gate games, and that was a long time ago back when Bioware were a completely different studio. In fact the loot system and the economy in general in Mass Effect 1 was completely, irrevocably broken ... so they decided to do away with it in the sequels. Maybe Bioware can hire some ex-Blizzard devs to come in and help design loot? I believe you about BG, never played it. I do remember now that ME1 was broken too. Tungsten Rounds VII being better than Tungsten Rounds X rng (hah!) a bell?
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Polka Dot
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 13, 2019 0:56:27 GMT
To OP: both. Good luck to them. What I don’t get about this sort of game: Say you play for s couple of weeks. Finish the bare bones story early, grind to get better loot do you can keep moving to higher difficulty and then... run out of challenge or stuff to do. Ok fine. More is coming right? But what form will that new content take. Will it be designed for people like you who already have max loot? What about people who started, did the story, stopped and waited for new story? They might only be in greens or blues. So no, the content has to be designed to support both groups, plus new players who play the next chapter immediately after the first. I don’t see the appeal in any of those scenarios, but I’m not playing. Difficulty levels would solve this in theory, albeit not in the form and with the loot structure currently implemented. Well, they already have difficulty levels though, right? The wacky scaling is a huge problem (level 1 weapon doing more damage than a legendary) - has that been addressed yet?
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