Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on Mar 22, 2019 18:33:13 GMT
To the title: watch the lore videos on my YouTube channel Seriously though, I recommend being thorough in you journey and reading the codex. It helps flesh a lot of things out which will hopefully catch your imagination. Beyond that I’m not sure what to tell you. I find that the appeal of a second playthrough is often in planning out my character’s arc over the course of the story and role playing accordingly now that I know the story beats and the options available.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 22, 2019 19:06:02 GMT
To the title: watch the lore videos on my YouTube channel Apologies Heimdall, I totally forgot to include your excellent videos in my list. I think they should have come after playing the origin stories and before the reading matter.
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 23, 2019 0:58:41 GMT
Seriously though, I recommend being thorough in you journey and reading the codex. The problem with this is, the Codex isn't exactly a reliable view on the setting. The devs have reserved the right to use the "unreliable narrator" excuse to retcon whatever, whenever. This is honestly the problem with getting into Dragon Age Lore in general at this point. It feels very meaningless to explore it because it's been left in too malleable a state.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 23, 2019 2:12:22 GMT
Seriously though, I recommend being thorough in you journey and reading the codex. The problem with this is, the Codex isn't exactly a reliable view on the setting. The devs have reserved the right to use the "unreliable narrator" excuse to retcon whatever, whenever. This is honestly the problem with getting into Dragon Age Lore in general at this point. It feels very meaningless to explore it because it's been left in too malleable a state. How do you deal with uncertainty in the real world?
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 23, 2019 3:57:16 GMT
How do you deal with uncertainty in the real world? I'm not sure what one has to do with the other? Video games are not the real world.
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Post by Noxluxe on Mar 23, 2019 5:44:21 GMT
Only read up on what seems relevant to your character's background, but really get into that. Decide how your character personally feels about what s/he knows about the world and has been told is important by his/her leaders, and how it has impacted his/her life.
That way, when you're asked to make decisions in the game, you have something to ground it in. And when new lore or revelations about the world make themselves known or are explained, your character's horizons expand and you can decide what impression s/he gets based on his/her previous experience, coloring how you experience the lore.
I'm not a huge fan of the Codex thing. While I've never been disappointed or bored actually reading them, and enjoy getting into them at the very start of a play-through, I've also never sat down to play a video game because I felt like pausing the action a lot and spending half an hour poring over text.
And I feel that "show, don't tell" should be more in effect. Give me NPCs and details that demonstrate these things throughout the world rather than just telling it to me and letting my imagination do the heavy lifting implementing them as in-game reality. Origins did okay at that, peppering the world with NPCs with views and experience to share. Which of us actually physically go around snooping in every piece of text we see to learn about absolutely everything?
Given the choice, I'd have preferred a way to translate the knowledge into audio Bioshock-style so I could enjoy it while actually exploring the world. Seems to me that that as the games have taken a turn for the open-world approach with lots of walking and combing through empty wilderness, that would be a very pleasant way to get lore input in general.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 23, 2019 8:30:21 GMT
Given the choice, I'd have preferred a way to translate the knowledge into audio Bioshock-style so I could enjoy it while actually exploring the world. Seems to me that that as the games have taken a turn for the open-world approach with lots of walking and combing through empty wilderness, that would be a very pleasant way to get lore input in general I'd agree with this. As I hiked across the endless expanses of the Hissing Wastes it would have filled the time nicely to be able to toggle a voiceover giving information about the region or landmarks I should watch out for. The reason I was trudging across the wastes instead of riding (even that took time) is that I was hoping to trigger companion conversations but invariably that only happened as something attacked me. So I'd rather they kept the companion interactions predominately to areas where combat does not take place. In Origins a lot of interaction took place whilst walking around the city or village areas, the same was true of DA2. That meant I could choose whether to go for a stroll and pick up on the gossip or head off on a mission where I could concentrate on that. Then in DAI the one place you did not get companion interactions was whilst walking around Val Royeaux, which was ridiculous as nothing else particular would be happening there apart from the set pieces. I'm not a huge fan of the Codex thing. While I've never been disappointed or bored actually reading them, and enjoy getting into them at the very start of a play-through, I've also never sat down to play a video game because I felt like pausing the action a lot and spending half an hour poring over text. I don't always read the texts when I get them but just note in my mind they are there and then perhaps devote some time to scrolling through them when back at base. However, I do like the codices but I am something of a compulsive reader in life. Back when I played Baldurs Gate I actually spent an evening walking around the Candlekeep library reading all the codices; it was great. However, that was appropriate to what I was doing at the time as I was meant to be simply walking around peacefully finding things out. By contrast, as you say, often in the dragon age games you get codices to read when your companion has more important demands on their time, for example killing all the demons in the Circle tower in DAO rather than stop to pour over books in the library.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 26, 2019 0:58:50 GMT
How do you deal with uncertainty in the real world? I'm not sure what one has to do with the other? Video games are not the real world. So in a video game you should have access to better information about the world than the people who live in it do? OK, but why? It's pretty much the opposite of what I want from a game. I don't like knowing things my PC doesn't know. Pity I can't lock out memories of previous runs while playing.
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Post by melbella on Mar 26, 2019 1:21:16 GMT
I don't like knowing things my PC doesn't know. Pity I can't lock out memories of previous runs while playing. So much this. It's one thing that really dragged (drug?) down Trespasser for me.
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Post by Lazarillo on Mar 26, 2019 3:39:41 GMT
So in a video game you should have access to better information about the world than the people who live in it do? OK, but why? It's pretty much the opposite of what I want from a game. I don't like knowing things my PC doesn't know. Pity I can't lock out memories of previous runs while playing. You can't separate yourself from your characters? Either way, that part honestly doesn't apply much to my argument. What I'm saying is that, for example, it's meaningless, as a player to care about the "truth" of any situation when there's no "truth" in the first place. If I were to, say, study physics (not that I do, granted), I could make observations of natural phenomenon and through them, attempt to determine certain natural laws. What I determine may or may not be correct, but the world is set as it is, and a correct answer does exist, even if I cannot properly determine it. In Dragon Age, that's not the case. The correct answer can change in an instant. And even the "evidence" is pointless, because what's "real" and "not real" is similarly beholden only to the whims of future writers. Why explore, when there's nothing to discover?
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 26, 2019 5:46:27 GMT
I enjoy the fact that the codex is in universe and in character and therefore subject to the writer being bias, being wrong, differing perspectives and just flat out propaganda. It makes reading the codex interesting, as reading in character stuff is more interesting then dryly stated facts, and comparing conflicting accounts and speculating on what the truth really is is fun. And makes the in game reveals like the titans more fun as a result.
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Post by melbella on Mar 26, 2019 11:56:33 GMT
You can't separate yourself from your characters? That's not the issue. It's more that I (the player) can't forget what I know. I still replay as different characters, but there's no more surprises because I already know what's going to happen. I only get one shot as a player to not be spoiled, so I don't like knowing things ahead of time for that one time. Just because a spoiler is sanctioned doesn't mean it's not a spoiler.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 26, 2019 14:55:36 GMT
You can't separate yourself from your characters? Either way, that part honestly doesn't apply much to my argument. What I'm saying is that, for example, it's meaningless, as a player to care about the "truth" of any situation when there's no "truth" in the first place. If I were to, say, study physics (not that I do, granted), I could make observations of natural phenomenon and through them, attempt to determine certain natural laws. What I determine may or may not be correct, but the world is set as it is, and a correct answer does exist, even if I cannot properly determine it. In Dragon Age, that's not the case. The correct answer can change in an instant. And even the "evidence" is pointless, because what's "real" and "not real" is similarly beholden only to the whims of future writers. Why explore, when there's nothing to discover? melbella handled the first part. As for the second, caring about the truth is exactly as useful an exercise as it is ITRW. You don't have access to "truth" in either situation. You can make a best guess as to what that truth is, and can come within varying degrees of being correct. All the work in your argument is being done by you mistrusting the writers. (The RW equivalent would be Descartes' evil demon, I guess.) Which is OK if that's how you roll, but it isn't much of an argument for someone who doesn't actively mistrust them. This is only of interest to me because you want to make the games worse. Like I said before, you want the opposite of what I want in this regard.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 26, 2019 18:06:21 GMT
In Dragon Age, that's not the case. The correct answer can change in an instant. And even the "evidence" is pointless, because what's "real" and "not real" is similarly beholden only to the whims of future writers. Why explore, when there's nothing to discover? For me it is about role playing my character. They are meant to be living in Thedas and therefore they ought to be familiar with its lore, history or customs, depending on their origins. So if my character can reasonably be assumed to know certain information then it can inform my decision making process. What I find disappointing is where my character seems ignorant of something they ought to know. For example in DAO my Dalish elf should have known about Shartan from the beginning rather than be told about him by a Chantry sister. In DAI my Dalish elf ought to have known that Ameridan was an elf seeing as a later war table mission has a Dalish clan insisting they have always known he was the last Inquisitor. I could partly explain that away with the idea that Ameridan was considered a traitor by the majority of Dalish for associating with Drakon, so didn't feature in the stories of their history, but his own clan family still remembered him. Since we are likely to be heading to Tevinter I will be catching up on the lore to ensure I role play my character appropriately. There will probably be some things that will be different because most of the lore I have had previously has been filtered by southern prejudice but that doesn't mean that all of it will be invalid.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 29, 2019 18:38:40 GMT
This is something we'll probably have to live with to some extent. Even if origins come back, which I don't think is likely, having everything come up in them is probably never going to be feasible.
Would Clan Lavellan necessarily know of Clan Ghilain's beliefs WRT Ameridan? My impression is that the various clans don't have that much contact unless they're in physical proximity to each other. I'd have burned the wordcount for this -- it could have been a fun convo with Professor Kenrick -- but I don't think not doing it was actually a problem.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 29, 2019 19:21:28 GMT
Would Clan Lavellan necessarily know of Clan Ghilain's beliefs WRT Ameridan?
The 10 year Arlathvhen is meant to be where they exchange stories and keep the other clans up to date. Also Keeper Rilaferin was responsible for disseminating Dalish lore to the Shemlen scholars because he wanted them to understand and appreciate their customs. Not all the clan leaders approved of this so the matter was discussed at the Arlathvhen. Now you would think that Clan Ghilain would have gone to him and suggested he tell/remind the scholars about Ameridan.
However, the thing about Ameridan is that he existed before the fall of the Dales and thus it wasn't something that may be other clans hadn't heard of because they only really came into existence after the Dalish fled the Dales, allegedly being predominately made up of the families of the Emerald Knights and other leading figures, then led by the surviving priesthood, who had not been the secular leaders in the Dales but would have been aware of the discussions of the ruling Council. He clearly was an important enough figure that he knew the general attitude of the leadership of the elves to Drakon and felt that he and Telana should have been back there influencing matters. This is why I have assumed the reason he does not figure in the stories the Keepers recount is precisely because of his known relationship to Drakon and so after the fall of the Dales, he was erased from Dalish history in much the same way that Shartan was from human accounts. However, it is understandable that his own family might have remembered him or if nothing else felt it another example of how ungrateful the Shemlen had been after the service he rendered to them.
Another peculiarity is the fact that Ameridan was dealing with the Avvar dragon to take the heat off Drakon so he could concentrate on the Blight and so trapping the dragon was allegedly done to help Orlais. However, the people who would have most suffered if Hakkon had descended out of the Frostbacks would have either been the Alamarri in the east or the elves of the Dales in the west. To get to Orlais the Avvar would have had to cross the Dales and thus would have come into conflict with the Emerald Knights or fight their way through the Alamarri and then the elves afterwards before they could get anywhere near Orlais. So why did Ameridan feel he was doing this as a favour to Drakon when the chief beneficiaries would have been his own people?
Plus of course if the dragon was such a threat to neighbouring peoples, why didn't any of them take more interest in what became of it and Ameridan? It would seem a bit risky to simply assume he had killed it. In fact why didn't they want to support him with more troops and lines of communication? It was at least 6 years before Drakon headed north to aid the Grey Wardens so he did have plenty of time to check that a dragon wasn't suddenly going to descend on his empire. Meanwhile surely the elven leadership would want to be reassured for the same reason. Yet it seems everyone was content to let a small party of just 4 people deal with the matter and then not concern themselves at all when none of them came back.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 29, 2019 20:44:03 GMT
Not quite my point. Would other clans have cared enough about Ameridan to talk about him and keep the story alive? He isn't their ancestor. Most people haven't even heard of him by the time of DAI. Why should the Dalish be any different?
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 29, 2019 21:44:45 GMT
Why should the Dalish be any different? Well if they had known he was off slaying a dragon that could otherwise attack them at the head of an Avvar army then his name might have been worth a tale (or an honorary tree in the Emerald Graves) but since it appears that nobody was aware of the dragon apart from him and Drakon, then I take your point.
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