dmc1001
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 21, 2019 20:57:59 GMT
They accept "gene therapy" as common (Shepard can state as much to Michael and Rebekkah). What is gene therapy? Gene therapy is not integrating with synthetics for all of eternity. You twist it to make a kind of sense that it doesn't have. Think of Rebekah Petrovsky. She wasn't convinced about gene therapy. You think she's alone? What about asari, salarians, turians, etc. Do they have gene therapy? What evidence do we have? What we have here is ONE PERSON dictating what happens to all beings in the entire galaxy. There is no "majority rules" because Shepard hasn't clue one what the majority even wants. Shepard says it best about the decision. If Shepard really had a sense of the galaxy on this, why question it?
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 21, 2019 22:10:28 GMT
It lied about everything. It's doing everything it can to prevent you from destroying the Reapers. They only care about self-preservation We're trying to have a serious discussion here, you know.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 21, 2019 22:15:56 GMT
Yeah, I don't know. Do you really synthesize visiting extra-galactic aliens? Is it even possible? Maybe only the children of those synthesized are born that way. Similarly, as life once more arises, does that mean they synthesize bacteria? Dunno about the bacteria. I don't see why Synthesizing extragalactic visitors would offer any conceptual problems. It's not like you'd ever have to blanket the entire galaxy again. But I imagine this could be handled case-by-case anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2019 22:21:07 GMT
They accept "gene therapy" as common (Shepard can state as much to Michael and Rebekkah). What is gene therapy? We are told in game that it's basically the use of technology of some sort of alter DNA in order to eliminate the risk of a disease or to enhance the performance of a soldier. Biotic implants are used in connection with biotic amps... insertion of a technology into the body to integrate with organic physiology in order to improve the organic's performance. What are cybernetics? Use of technology to repair damaged organic parts and extend the subjects life expectancy... even bringing them back from the dead. The keepers are also a sign of just sheer acceptance of technology without even fully understanding it. The galactic cooperation and acceptance of the Crucible itself without even understanding what it does is also another sign that there is a collective will to accept technology as a good thing. The player can further this by accepting the geth as fully evolved AI and the people adapting so readily to allowing them to help out in building the Crucible.
The game asks what the player wants the galaxy to believe about AI throughout the game. You make the choice. You can make the assumption you make and support your choice... but that doesn't make it impossible for the opposing assumption and choice to be made. It is possible for the Catalyst to be telling the truth... that he has analyzed the organics in the galaxy and there is now a readiness and a willingness to integrate with tech that just wasn't there in the previous cycles... basically saying that, by completing the Crucible, this cycle has already evolved further than previous cycles.
When a person isn't asked there will, it does not automatically follow that what happens is against their will. They could possibly be in favor of it... we just don't know. We use computer polling and extrapolation to ascertain the collective will of people all the time. Is it really so hard to believe that this isn't what the Catalyst has done in ME3.
Even if the majority of the Galaxy agreed to it, it would be beyond belief to think all life wanted it or was okay with it. I mean there are people out there who don't like peanut butter and that is far crazier than not wanting to be transformed into a Borg. Prove that they are actually enslaved by Shepard's decision. They aren't being forced into doing any sort of labor. The slides show that they go forward pursuing whatever interests them. They aren't even going to be governed by synthetics. Furthermore, the slides indicate that they are all happy with the result and may someday even find a way to overcome mortality. That even tells us that the decision itself didn't change them enough to make them immortal like the synthetics were before the integration and, since it's EDI who is saying it, may have served to make her mortal (i.e. subject to an inevitable death).
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Post by themikefest on Mar 21, 2019 22:40:58 GMT
I believe if the green is chosen, it doesn't show Wreav rallying the krogan like it does in the blue and red, but shows his planet being rebuilt instead. If true, why doesn't it show Wreav rallying the krogan? Did the green change him?
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Post by ahglock on Mar 21, 2019 22:59:57 GMT
Even if the majority of the Galaxy agreed to it, it would be beyond belief to think all life wanted it or was okay with it. I mean there are people out there who don't like peanut butter and that is far crazier than not wanting to be transformed into a Borg. Prove that they are actually enslaved by Shepard's decision. They aren't being forced into doing any sort of labor. The slides show that they go forward pursuing whatever interests them. They aren't even going to be governed by synthetics. Furthermore, the slides indicate that they are all happy with the result and may someday even find a way to overcome mortality. That even tells us that the decision itself didn't change them enough to make them immortal like the synthetics were before the integration and, since it's EDI who is saying it, may have served to make her mortal (i.e. subject to an inevitable death). Outside indoctrination explain how everyone is happy with the results, drops all conflict and pursues peaceful interests. The only explanation for universal happiness with these results is indoctrination.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 22, 2019 0:26:32 GMT
Prove that they are actually enslaved by Shepard's decision. They aren't being forced into doing any sort of labor. The slides show that they go forward pursuing whatever interests them. They aren't even going to be governed by synthetics. Furthermore, the slides indicate that they are all happy with the result and may someday even find a way to overcome mortality. That even tells us that the decision itself didn't change them enough to make them immortal like the synthetics were before the integration and, since it's EDI who is saying it, may have served to make her mortal (i.e. subject to an inevitable death). Outside indoctrination explain how everyone is happy with the results, drops all conflict and pursues peaceful interests. The only explanation for universal happiness with these results is indoctrination. wow. This is a very dark thought isn't it. The only way we could have peace forever is with indoctrination. The worst part is it's true
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 22, 2019 2:37:00 GMT
Outside indoctrination explain how everyone is happy with the results, drops all conflict and pursues peaceful interests. The only explanation for universal happiness with these results is indoctrination. wow. This is a very dark thought isn't it. The only way we could have peace forever is with indoctrination. The worst part is it's true Yep. Safest route is to destroy the Reapers and instill the Three Laws of Robotics and/or control chips in new AI - the new AI that definitely will exist down the road.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 3:02:23 GMT
Prove that they are actually enslaved by Shepard's decision. They aren't being forced into doing any sort of labor. The slides show that they go forward pursuing whatever interests them. They aren't even going to be governed by synthetics. Furthermore, the slides indicate that they are all happy with the result and may someday even find a way to overcome mortality. That even tells us that the decision itself didn't change them enough to make them immortal like the synthetics were before the integration and, since it's EDI who is saying it, may have served to make her mortal (i.e. subject to an inevitable death). Outside indoctrination explain how everyone is happy with the results, drops all conflict and pursues peaceful interests. The only explanation for universal happiness with these results is indoctrination. The slides show everyone smiling and there is no mention of everyone being indoctrinated. To use an argument that was recently used on me... I'm just describing literally what we are shown and told in game. Of course, you can interpret things however you like based on your own beliefs and to suit your own purposes (obviously you don't personally believe global peace is ever going to be possible), but at least admit that it IS an interpretation. Obviously, you don't believe the premise presented in game behind the Asari model of a cooperative council of government either... so, how is a galactic-wide government possible outside of absolute tactics like threats and overt control?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 22, 2019 3:20:53 GMT
wow. This is a very dark thought isn't it. The only way we could have peace forever is with indoctrination. The worst part is it's true Yep. Safest route is to destroy the Reapers and instill the Three Laws of Robotics and/or control chips in new AI - the new AI that definitely will exist down the road. Wow, so you support genocide and slavery.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 22, 2019 3:25:55 GMT
Yep. Safest route is to destroy the Reapers and instill the Three Laws of Robotics and/or control chips in new AI - the new AI that definitely will exist down the road. Wow, so you support genocide and slavery. Does that mean everyone that chooses destroy supports genocide?
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Post by ahglock on Mar 22, 2019 4:06:57 GMT
Outside indoctrination explain how everyone is happy with the results, drops all conflict and pursues peaceful interests. The only explanation for universal happiness with these results is indoctrination. The slides show everyone smiling and there is no mention of everyone being indoctrinated. To use an argument that was recently used on me... I'm just describing literally what we are shown and told in game. Of course, you can interpret things however you like based on your own beliefs and to suit your own purposes (obviously you don't personally believe global peace is ever going to be possible), but at least admit that it IS an interpretation. Obviously, you don't believe the premise presented in game behind the Asari model of a cooperative council of government either... so, how is a galactic-wide government possible outside of absolute tactics like threats and overt control?
Well I primarily don't think everyone is happy, I think a slideshow is a snapshot showing the best of.
But, if I were to accept your premise that everyone is happy, working together and peaceful. Then there is no rational interpretation I can think of outside of indoctrination where everyone is happy and peaceful from a green magic ray.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 22, 2019 8:01:24 GMT
Yep. Safest route is to destroy the Reapers and instill the Three Laws of Robotics and/or control chips in new AI - the new AI that definitely will exist down the road. Wow, so you support genocide and slavery. Indoctrination is slavery. Shepard said it in ME1 that it would better to be dead than enslaved.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 10:49:12 GMT
The slides show everyone smiling and there is no mention of everyone being indoctrinated. To use an argument that was recently used on me... I'm just describing literally what we are shown and told in game. Of course, you can interpret things however you like based on your own beliefs and to suit your own purposes (obviously you don't personally believe global peace is ever going to be possible), but at least admit that it IS an interpretation. Obviously, you don't believe the premise presented in game behind the Asari model of a cooperative council of government either... so, how is a galactic-wide government possible outside of absolute tactics like threats and overt control?
Well I primarily don't think everyone is happy, I think a slideshow is a snapshot showing the best of.
But, if I were to accept your premise that everyone is happy, working together and peaceful. Then there is no rational interpretation I can think of outside of indoctrination where everyone is happy and peaceful from a green magic ray.
Since both Saren and TIM were both indoctrinated and could be readily talked into committing suicide by Shepard, I don't see how using indoctrination as the only rational explanation for happiness works at all. It seems to me that the game shows those who are indoctrinated as being miiserable. It also clearly tells us that indoctrination turns people into mindless husks... but the ending slides don't show any mindless husks, but instead show productive, happy people rebuilding and, according to EDI advancing in such ways that immortality may be possible one day. These are not consistent with the population being indoctrinated.
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Post by ahglock on Mar 22, 2019 14:09:26 GMT
Well I primarily don't think everyone is happy, I think a slideshow is a snapshot showing the best of.
But, if I were to accept your premise that everyone is happy, working together and peaceful. Then there is no rational interpretation I can think of outside of indoctrination where everyone is happy and peaceful from a green magic ray.
Since both Saren and TIM were both indoctrinated and could be readily talked into committing suicide by Shepard, I don't see how using indoctrination as the only rational explanation for happiness works at all. It seems to me that the game shows those who are indoctrinated as being miiserable. It also clearly tells us that indoctrination turns people into mindless husks... but the ending slides don't show any mindless husks, but instead show productive, happy people rebuilding and, according to EDI advancing in such ways that immortality may be possible one day. These are not consistent with the population being indoctrinated. Most don’t seem to turn into mindless husks. Pre magic ray indoctrination makes them driven and productive to advance a reapers goals. If they are shown why that is wrong they might commit suicide. If it wasn’t making them happy why would taking it away from them make them suicidal. If the reapers win via green ray they are being driven to be productive but everyone is indoctrinated so no one is there to take it away. Kenson, Saren, Tim none were husks, all we’re productive and happy until you take it away. What is shown in the slides is spot on consistent with indoctrination, there’s just no Shepard to take it away.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 22, 2019 14:52:34 GMT
It’s a pretty bad way to lie if you end up deleted in the process.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 22, 2019 19:40:21 GMT
Interesting that the thing says that it preserves organics before they're lost to this conflict. How does it preserve the ones that were vaporized on the beam run? How about those turians that were on the ship that was destroyed before Shepard reaches menae? What about all the ones that are turned into the uglies? Is that part of the of the preserving process?
It says organics are preserved in reaper form yet they're put in harms way. So with Sovereign being destroyed, does that mean its solution failed?
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 22, 2019 19:49:32 GMT
Interesting that the thing says that it preserves organics before they're lost to this conflict. How does it preserve the ones that were vaporized on the beam run? How about those turians that were on the ship that was destroyed before Shepard reaches menae? What about all the ones that are turned into the uglies? Is that part of the of the preserving process? It says organics are preserved in reaper form yet they're put in harms way. So with Sovereign being destroyed, does that mean its solution failed? I think when it talk about organics, it sees them as entire species, doesn't care much about individuals.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 22, 2019 20:10:13 GMT
3) synthesis ending: he told Shepard that organic will understand synthetics and viceversa, and conflicts will no longer be inevitable -> that's what happened, synth and organic have better relations, cooperation etc -> Catalyst is telling you the TRUTH. That's not what happened. The organics and synthetics are filled with some kind of circuitry, not to mention the glowing green eyes. EDI had "DNA" inside of her. Watch the videos below. The point is, the entire galaxy was transformed against their will. The conflicts were never inevitable. As I said in another post, if an AI's programming says something is true then the AI must believe it to be true. The endings may happen as the Catalyst says but its core belief is flawed. Those options were never needed in the first place. The Reapers did far, far more harm than good. EDI commenting about being alive. EDI had "DNA" inside of her. From EDI's voiceover: " As the line between synthetic and organic disappears, we may transcend mortality..."
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 22, 2019 22:43:18 GMT
That's not what happened. The organics and synthetics are filled with some kind of circuitry, not to mention the glowing green eyes. EDI had "DNA" inside of her. Watch the videos below. The point is, the entire galaxy was transformed against their will. The conflicts were never inevitable. As I said in another post, if an AI's programming says something is true then the AI must believe it to be true. The endings may happen as the Catalyst says but its core belief is flawed. Those options were never needed in the first place. The Reapers did far, far more harm than good. EDI commenting about being alive. EDI had "DNA" inside of her. From EDI's voiceover: " As the line between synthetic and organic disappears, we may transcend mortality..." wow so saren was synthesis. So it was meant to be good but turned out to be the wrong choice.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 22:52:17 GMT
And the Illusive Man represents the control choice.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 22, 2019 23:00:41 GMT
And the Illusive Man represents the control choice. So TIM represents control which is not a promising sign since he willing put reaper tech in his mind and he commited so many horrifying acts that it doesn't speak well of him.
Synthesis is represented by saren who was vicious and brutal even before soverign got a hold of him so again not a good sign.
I think anderson represented destroy and while he wasn't perfect he always tried to do the right thing. And he genuinely cared about others.
Huh I can't seem to figure out which one is the best choice. The choice the violent anti human made,the choice the narccistic anti alien mad man made,or the choice the loyal general who cared about others and tried to so what was right and helped our character throughout the whole series.....yep this is a very hard choice.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 23:04:21 GMT
Just because control is blue, doesn't make it a paragon choice. Illusive Man is usually renegade. Do whatever it takes to get the job done.
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Post by ahglock on Mar 22, 2019 23:05:00 GMT
And the Illusive Man represents the control choice. Yup. Green saren, blue illusive man, red Anderson. That being said I don’t think any are supposed to represent the right or wrong choice. They are all supposed to represent people who were trying to save the galaxy but maybe took a wrong turn or went down the wrong part or just came up short so couldn’t do it right in the end. Their end might be the right choice but only Shepard messiah can get it done in the correct way in the end. Saren would be a galaxy destroyer with the turians being the next collectors. Illusive man would just be the next harbringer but still under the thumb of star brat. Anderson just couldn’t make it to the end and make the hard choices that are needed. Shepard in the Saren route saves the entire galaxy not just one race and it’s a more complete synthesis not collectors 2.0 Shepard as illusive man is strong enough to take control over the wishes of starbrat. Shepard as Anderson has what it takes to pull the trigger to do what he thinks is right.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 23:07:26 GMT
I thought the game established that controlling the Reapers was not even possible.
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