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Post by Little Bengel on Apr 2, 2019 21:20:14 GMT
So regarding my burning Anthem codebase question: I may have an answer thanks to this post by Heimdall over on the DA4 forum: “Cancel” may not imply all it may seem here. If they were rebooting the project they would probably recycle as much of the old work as they could. I suspect that what they mean about using Anthem’s code base is for more low level functionality like cutscenes, inventory and event triggers that is lacking at base Frostbite. This makes sense.
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Post by shinobiwan on Apr 2, 2019 21:21:05 GMT
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Post by 10k on Apr 2, 2019 21:22:16 GMT
Why are you the only one to get defensive? If it's not true, then it shouldn't bother you. But for some reason you are the only one to respond to my "generalizing." If it doesn't concern you, than why does it bother you? Because you’re generalizing other people especially with what you said. Seriously can you not see how it paints people? Generalizing and painting who? Like I said I didn't mention any names? Only person I see acting so defensive about this entire situation is you.
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Post by bshep on Apr 2, 2019 21:22:21 GMT
10k quit your generalizing seriously. Nobody wants to see these devs suffer. Why are you the only one to get defensive? If it's not true, then it shouldn't bother you. But for some reason you are the only one to respond to my "generalizing." If it doesn't concern you, than why does it bother you? Edit: I didn't mention any names. But here you come, defending yourself. Well you quoted me when doing your generalization post. Also weren't you the one trying to use Corey Gaspur's death on the other thread?
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Post by shinobiwan on Apr 2, 2019 21:25:03 GMT
Why are you the only one to get defensive? If it's not true, then it shouldn't bother you. But for some reason you are the only one to respond to my "generalizing." If it doesn't concern you, than why does it bother you? Because you’re generalizing other people especially with what you said. Seriously can you not see how it paints people? LOL, don't blame 10k. Responding to an article detailing the severe cultural and leadership issues that have led to mental health problems for numerous employees with a statement that amounts to 'keep up the good work' "paints people" all on its own.
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Post by 10k on Apr 2, 2019 21:25:33 GMT
Why are you the only one to get defensive? If it's not true, then it shouldn't bother you. But for some reason you are the only one to respond to my "generalizing." If it doesn't concern you, than why does it bother you? Edit: I didn't mention any names. But here you come, defending yourself. Well you quoted me when doing your generalization. Also weren't you the one trying to use Corey Gaspur's death on the other thread? I didn't quote you at all I quoted Qui-Gon GlenN7. Also when sofa said stop talking about Corey I did, I just wanted to know what happen to him. So don't even try to use his death as a weapon.
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Post by Reznore on Apr 2, 2019 21:29:30 GMT
@ thread: so what do u think this means for DA4? The good news : Mark Darrah. Whatever the end result for Anthem, it sounds like employees were relieved to have him around when everything else was falling to pieces.
Very Bad News, I'm going to cry in my cereal : Laidlaw and DA4 before the "reboot". People were excited by DA4 pre reboot. That got axed and Laidlaw left.
Somewhat good news : Laidlaw was replaced by the DA Art team boss. Can't remember his name. Always seemed very passionate about his work, and DAI environment/art was very very good imho. Also been on the team since DAO/ is lead since DA2. Always had some strong vision, even when it ment lots of spikes in DA2. ^^
So there are some good elements but the reboot thingie and then DA4 being put on ice for Anthem, just gave me a really really bad vibe.
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Post by river82 on Apr 2, 2019 21:32:54 GMT
Over the months, Anthem had begun naturally picking up ideas and mechanics from loot shooters like The Division and Destiny, although even mentioning the word Destiny was taboo at BioWare. (Diablo III was the preferred reference point.) A few people who worked on the game said that trying to make comparisons to Destiny would elicit negative reactions from studio leadership. “We were told quite definitively, ‘This isn’t Destiny,’” said one developer. “But it kind of is. What you’re describing is beginning to go into that realm. They didn’t want to make those correlations, but at the same time, when you’re talking about fire teams, and going off and doing raids together, about gun combat, spells, things like that, well there’s a lot of elements there that correlate, that cross over.”
Oh my God, lol!
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Post by river82 on Apr 2, 2019 21:34:42 GMT
Because leadership didn’t want to discuss Destiny, that developer added, they found it hard to learn from what Bungie’s loot shooter did well. “We need to be looking at games like Destiny because they’re the market leaders,” the developer said. “They’re the guys who have been doing these things best. We should absolutely be looking at how they’re doing things.” As an example, the developer brought up the unique feel of Destiny’s large variety of guns, something that Anthem seemed to be lacking, in large part because it was being built by a bunch of people who had mostly made RPGs. “We really didn’t have the design skill to be able to do that,” they said. “There just wasn’t the knowledge base to be able to develop that kind of diversity.”
Are these guys FOR REAL? It's hard to type while laughing so very hard xD
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Little Bengel
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Partying like it's 1999
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Post by Little Bengel on Apr 2, 2019 21:36:56 GMT
Over the months, Anthem had begun naturally picking up ideas and mechanics from loot shooters like The Division and Destiny, although even mentioning the word Destiny was taboo at BioWare. (Diablo III was the preferred reference point.) A few people who worked on the game said that trying to make comparisons to Destiny would elicit negative reactions from studio leadership. “We were told quite definitively, ‘This isn’t Destiny,’” said one developer. “But it kind of is. What you’re describing is beginning to go into that realm. They didn’t want to make those correlations, but at the same time, when you’re talking about fire teams, and going off and doing raids together, about gun combat, spells, things like that, well there’s a lot of elements there that correlate, that cross over.” AKA Managerial Incompetence. EDIT: Damn it, you posted an even better one to quote!
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Post by lennybusker on Apr 2, 2019 21:40:59 GMT
If one thing is clear it's that it's fine to be hopeful for DA4, it's fine to be skeptical of DA4, but anyone who insinuates that skepticism of DA4 is inherently unfair or unwarranted because BioWare needs to be laughed out of whatever discussion platform they're inhabiting.
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 2, 2019 21:51:40 GMT
Keep in mind that Jason doesn't even hides that he's mostly interviewed people who have some level of grievance with the studio - I have no interest in dismissing what they're saying as I have no reason to doubt that Bioware has its slew of problems, as most game dev studios do, and they have to deal with them, but if one interviews mostly people with bones to pick with studio or leadership, the picture that emerges will be skewed towards whatever narrative one intends to paint.
In the very article it is mentioned that games like Last Of Us had rocky development and unhappy devs (quote: "Some of the best video games in history, like The Last of Us, came out of rocky development cycles in which many of the staff felt like they were screwed until everything coalesced at the last minute." <- wait, so is Naughty Dog also believing in "Bioware magic" or are you trying to tell us that this is an industry-wide problem?), but because the game launched to universal acclaim no journalist went out of his/her way to find people ready to air their dirty laundry about unhappy times during development.
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Post by OdanUrr on Apr 2, 2019 21:56:58 GMT
Wow.
I haven't even finished reading it and all I can say is... Wow.
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Post by river82 on Apr 2, 2019 22:01:38 GMT
“Anthem is the game you get from a studio that is at war with itself,” said one former BioWare developer. “Edmonton understandably has the perspective of, ‘We are the original BioWare.’ Anybody not part of that brand is lesser, and does not garner the same level of trust as people that are in the Edmonton office. And so I think that’s a little bit of an issue there.”
Even when they did figure out what was happening, it felt to BioWare Austin staff like they were the grunts. Developers who worked both in Austin and Edmonton say the messaging was that Edmonton would come up with the vision and Austin would execute on it, which caused tension between the two studios. BioWare Austin developers recall offering feedback only to get dismissed or ignored by BioWare Edmonton’s senior leadership team, a process that was particularly frustrating for those who had already shipped a big online game, Star Wars: The Old Republic, and learned from its mistakes. One developer described it as a culture clash between a group of developers in Edmonton who were used to making single-player box product games and a group of developers in Austin who knew how to make online service games.
Sadly you're starting to hear this more and more as time goes on. It started with a few Glassdoor reviews I believe and has gradually expanded from there. Sad to see
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 2, 2019 22:06:05 GMT
“Anthem is the game you get from a studio that is at war with itself,” said one former BioWare developer. “Edmonton understandably has the perspective of, ‘We are the original BioWare.’ Anybody not part of that brand is lesser, and does not garner the same level of trust as people that are in the Edmonton office. And so I think that’s a little bit of an issue there.”
Even when they did figure out what was happening, it felt to BioWare Austin staff like they were the grunts. Developers who worked both in Austin and Edmonton say the messaging was that Edmonton would come up with the vision and Austin would execute on it, which caused tension between the two studios. BioWare Austin developers recall offering feedback only to get dismissed or ignored by BioWare Edmonton’s senior leadership team, a process that was particularly frustrating for those who had already shipped a big online game, Star Wars: The Old Republic, and learned from its mistakes. One developer described it as a culture clash between a group of developers in Edmonton who were used to making single-player box product games and a group of developers in Austin who knew how to make online service games.Sadly you're starting to hear this more and more as time goes on. It started with a few Glassdoor reviews I believe and has gradually expanded from there. Sad to see Well, if Glassdoor reviews are to be believed, what does it make of all the Glassdooor reviews that paint other studios in bad light and what does it mean for them?
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Post by natetrace on Apr 2, 2019 22:12:05 GMT
All I can say is that if there is a silver lining, it's that Casey Hudson and Mark darrah are there and it sounds like they are improving things. Also more than issues at BioWare or blaming Kotaku, I think Reddit "fan" pages would do the most damage to my mental state as a dev.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Apr 2, 2019 22:15:17 GMT
Why are you the only one to get defensive? If it's not true, then it shouldn't bother you. But for some reason you are the only one to respond to my "generalizing." If it doesn't concern you, than why does it bother you? Because you’re generalizing other people especially with what you said. Seriously can you not see how it paints people? As people who don't care how the sausage gets made? That's what you are. This sausage has a disgusting list of ingredients, yet you miraculously find it delicious. That is some good marketing and "muh Iron Man". Good for you. You're the worst public defender never appointed nor asked for, and that's saying a lot. If you are studying law, well, lol. I find this sausage reprehensible, and I want to know why. The article helped.
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Post by shaqfu on Apr 2, 2019 22:16:36 GMT
Honestly none of this surprises me, I always figured they were having some large management issues over there and at this point pretty much anybody knows Frostbite is rubbish for RPG games. Still I hope they can really turn it around from here, I really want the next Dragon Age to be amazing! Also I can't agree with the devs that wanted Inquisition to flop..more likely that would have just led to Dragon Age being canned altogether after the mess DA2 made.
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Post by river82 on Apr 2, 2019 22:17:41 GMT
“Anthem is the game you get from a studio that is at war with itself,” said one former BioWare developer. “Edmonton understandably has the perspective of, ‘We are the original BioWare.’ Anybody not part of that brand is lesser, and does not garner the same level of trust as people that are in the Edmonton office. And so I think that’s a little bit of an issue there.”
Even when they did figure out what was happening, it felt to BioWare Austin staff like they were the grunts. Developers who worked both in Austin and Edmonton say the messaging was that Edmonton would come up with the vision and Austin would execute on it, which caused tension between the two studios. BioWare Austin developers recall offering feedback only to get dismissed or ignored by BioWare Edmonton’s senior leadership team, a process that was particularly frustrating for those who had already shipped a big online game, Star Wars: The Old Republic, and learned from its mistakes. One developer described it as a culture clash between a group of developers in Edmonton who were used to making single-player box product games and a group of developers in Austin who knew how to make online service games.Sadly you're starting to hear this more and more as time goes on. It started with a few Glassdoor reviews I believe and has gradually expanded from there. Sad to see Well, if Glassdoor reviews are to be believed, what does it make of all the Glassdooor reviews that paint other studios in bad light and what does it mean for them? Glassdoor reviews are to be taken with a grain of salt by themselves, which they were when they appeared about Bioware. But the cries about Edmonton's arrogance is slowly rising to a crescendo, there's beginning to be too many to ignore. But on this forum people regularly believe CD Projekt's glassdoor reviews about how horrible the crunch is at this studio, so why not with Bioware? If people on this forum criticise CD Projekt, why not the same when Bioware drives its employees to mental breakdowns?
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Post by 10k on Apr 2, 2019 22:18:51 GMT
All I can say is that if there is a silver lining, it's that Casey Hudson and Mark darrah are there and it sounds like they are improving things. Also more than issues at BioWare or blaming Kotaku, I think Reddit "fan" pages would do the most damage to my mental state as a dev.But that's the thing, BW don't have to communicate with reddit. Negativity was one of the reasons why they shut down their own forum. If negativity is causing them so much grief why even interact with the reddit community, when they are not obligated to do so? "Negativity" has become more and more of an excuse lately for just plain bad game development.
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Post by biggydx on Apr 2, 2019 22:23:49 GMT
Because leadership didn’t want to discuss Destiny, that developer added, they found it hard to learn from what Bungie’s loot shooter did well. “We need to be looking at games like Destiny because they’re the market leaders,” the developer said. “They’re the guys who have been doing these things best. We should absolutely be looking at how they’re doing things.” As an example, the developer brought up the unique feel of Destiny’s large variety of guns, something that Anthem seemed to be lacking, in large part because it was being built by a bunch of people who had mostly made RPGs. “We really didn’t have the design skill to be able to do that,” they said. “There just wasn’t the knowledge base to be able to develop that kind of diversity.”Are these guys FOR REAL? It's hard to type while laughing so very hard xD Something tells me this section applies directly to Jonathan Warner; the games director. He was even mentioned specifically in the article. Jon's often talked about how he intended for the game to be like Diablo during interviews and livestreams.
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Post by river82 on Apr 2, 2019 22:26:14 GMT
It’s not unusual for a video game to be in rough shape close to launch. Some of the best video games in history, like The Last of Us, came out of rocky development cycles in which many of the staff felt like they were screwed until everything coalesced at the last minute. Something about Anthem felt different, though. Too much had gone awry; too many ambitions had not been realized. “I think if just one thing had gone wrong, we would’ve navigated that,” said a developer.
A key point. Also it feels like the fundamentals started going wrong. When the fundamentals start going wrong, like when people won't make decisions, when a product is paralysed partly because of over-ambition, when you just want to make something that's "different and cool" so let's look for something which feels sufficiently "different and cool", things go awry. Then chuck in continuous engine problems and wow.
"Make the game unmemeable", what does that even mean? What kind of directive is that? Sometimes memes are good, you want those memes :S
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 2, 2019 22:30:08 GMT
Well, if Glassdoor reviews are to be believed, what does it make of all the Glassdooor reviews that paint other studios in bad light and what does it mean for them? Glassdoor reviews are to be taken with a grain of salt by themselves, which they were when they appeared about Bioware. But the cries about Edmonton's arrogance is slowly rising to a crescendo, there's beginning to be too many to ignore. But on this forum people regularly believe CD Projekt's glassdoor reviews about how horrible the crunch is at this studio, so why not with Bioware? If people on this forum criticise CD Projekt, why not the same when Bioware drives its employees to mental breakdowns? Are they? Because I thought the general consensus is that, as you've put it, glassdoor reviews should be taken with a grain of salt, including CDPRs ones? At least that's what I took from that discussion when it ran its course. And again - if it turns out that BWs glassdoor reviews are something to be taken with less grain of salt, what does it mean for other developers? Is this a "Bioware problem" or general industry problem that is neatly brushed under the rug if the game finds enough success or initial positive reaction? I've already pointed this out, but even Jason mentioned that highly acclaimed TLoU had a rocky development and unhappy, stressed devs working their arses off till they saw light in the tunnel (I heard last God Of War had rocky development too) and I'm fairly sure that if one dug, they could find and interview developers that would paint no more flattering picture of the Naughty Dog. (and yes, that one game we both love, went through long, rocky development as well and you'll find many stressed, overworked developers there too. I know not just because of articles written on the topic, but because there were times me and my raiding guild literally sat with them in Team Speak and spoke about game itemization and combat balance - with some of our suggestions making to the game and staying there till today in some form - and how hard it is to design games and so on).
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Post by spacev3gan on Apr 2, 2019 22:42:28 GMT
What a fantastic piece of investigative journalism. Highly recommended. Get your popcorn by the way. This article is easily the best piece of entertainment related to Bioware in 5 years.
Now putting the praising to the article's quality aside, the information it presents is worrisome. The lack of vision and leadership, the clash between different studios, the unwillingness to learn from other games of the genre, the "last-minute-crunch" and the reliance on "Bioware magic" are all visible traits in Anthem, as they were all visible in Andromeda as well. Yet I think these harsh truths being exposed might improve Bioware development practices for their next game.
One interesting thing that I noted in the article was the almost prohibition of talking about Destiny during Anthem's development. I could not help bringing to my mind this streaming (couldn't find the link now, unfortunately) by Billy Buskell, associate producer at Bioware Edmonton, back in mid-2017, in which he was playing Andromeda but would not stop talking about Destiny and how hyped he was for Destiny 2, and that was a little bizarre given he was there playing and addressing Andromeda. Buskell then left Bioware in 2017, as did many others. So yeah, it felt as if something was going on back then.
As for Bioware official response to this article, stating that "we don’t see the value in tearing down one another, or one another’s work" and "we don’t believe articles that do that are making our industry and craft better", well, that was just embarrassing. This is called journalism, Bioware. If you are going to take your chances at releasing games at the state in which Anthem was released, with all the false advertising and knowing it was a gamble, you might as well be hold accountable.
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Post by river82 on Apr 2, 2019 22:47:01 GMT
Glassdoor reviews are to be taken with a grain of salt by themselves, which they were when they appeared about Bioware. But the cries about Edmonton's arrogance is slowly rising to a crescendo, there's beginning to be too many to ignore. But on this forum people regularly believe CD Projekt's glassdoor reviews about how horrible the crunch is at this studio, so why not with Bioware? If people on this forum criticise CD Projekt, why not the same when Bioware drives its employees to mental breakdowns? Are they? Because I thought the general consensus is that, as you've put it, glassdoor reviews should be taken with a grain of salt, including CDPRs ones? At least that's what I took it from that discussion when it ran its course. And again - if it turns out that BWs glassdoor reviews are something to be taken with less grain of salt, what does it mean for other developers? Is this a "Bioware problem" or general industry problem that is neatly brushed under the rug if the game finds enough success or initial positive reaction? I've already pointed this out, but even Jason mentioned that highly acclaimed TLoU had a rocky development and unhappy, stressed devs working their arses off till they saw light in the tunnel (I heard last God Of War had rocky development too) and I'm fairly sure that if one dug, they could find and interview developers that would paint no less flattering picture of the Naughty Dog. (and yes, that one game we both I love, went through long, rocky development as well and you'll find many stressed, overworked developers there too. I know not just because of articles written on the topic, but because there were times me and my raiding guild literally sat with them in Team Speak and spoke about game itemization and combat balance - with some of our suggestions making to the game and staying there till today in some form - and how hard it is to design games and so on). People in the gaming community (and on here) were talking so much about glassdoor reviews that CD Projekt had to release a statement specifically addressing glassdoor reviews - www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2017-10-16-cd-projekt-red-responds-to-glassdoor-reviews (check out the horrible rationalisation in this statement by the way: "This approach to making games is not for everyone", textbook victim blaming xD) So they're meant to be taken with a grain of salt, but they often aren't. Because people will be people. I trust Schreier though, he tends to make his name from leaking. I would say it's a AAA problem but I'm just guessing here. I have no knowledge about it. I think I've repeatedly said I don't like the AAA industry? I don't like what it does to developers, I don't like it's box-checking way of development, I don't like the exponentially escalating costs (game prices really do need to go up imo). Blizzard has recently been slammed for its treatment of employees, and they're not the same as they used to be either, I've criticised Bethesda since Oblivion (although I LOVE ESO. Actually funny enough Elder Scrolls Online is probably the only AAA game I've REALLY enjoyed since ... I actually can't remember when. I'm going to buy FFXIV to see if my tastes lie with MMOs 0.0) So yeah, I just don't like the whole AAA industry at the moment. I think some of Bioware's problems are problems across the industry. I don't think it's sustainable. Though I'll gladly gobble up ESO right now :3 Got stable internet today too :3
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