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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 12, 2019 1:12:36 GMT
Maybe but that means we never came across a single asari Vanguard until Tela Vasir. Otherwise we would have seen charge. Thane's recruitment mission have vanguards They don't use charge. They use warp and shotgun. There's one or two seen during Samara's recruitment mission as well. They too just use warp and a shotgun. They're called eclipse vanguards. They would say weakening their integerity Sure, but this is ME2, the first time we see anyone using Charge. This is sort of my point. No asari in ME1 had Charge. If it had been a possibility prior to ME2, why didn't we see it? My whole point here was that a biotic implant was what made it possible. Asari could not do it until that implant existed. I say this because I have a hard time believing that no asari Vanguards were around during ME1. Yes, I know gameplay changed things but I'm working with lore in mind.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Apr 12, 2019 2:32:39 GMT
Lore wise it's either Jack or Samara. I thought the games made this pretty clear. The likes of a regular human or Asari biotic don't hold a candle to them.
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Post by Pounce de León on Apr 12, 2019 9:48:53 GMT
Thane's recruitment mission have vanguards They don't use charge. They use warp and shotgun. There's one or two seen during Samara's recruitment mission as well. They too just use warp and a shotgun. They're called eclipse vanguards. They would say weakening their integerity Sure, but this is ME2, the first time we see anyone using Charge. This is sort of my point. No asari in ME1 had Charge. If it had been a possibility prior to ME2, why didn't we see it? My whole point here was that a biotic implant was what made it possible. Asari could not do it until that implant existed. I say this because I have a hard time believing that no asari Vanguards were around during ME1. Yes, I know gameplay changed things but I'm working with lore in mind. NPCs not using charge is rather down to tech limits or for gameplay reason I believe. I wouldn't procrustate that into lore.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 12, 2019 11:50:39 GMT
Sure, but this is ME2, the first time we see anyone using Charge. This is sort of my point. No asari in ME1 had Charge. If it had been a possibility prior to ME2, why didn't we see it? My whole point here was that a biotic implant was what made it possible. Asari could not do it until that implant existed. I say this because I have a hard time believing that no asari Vanguards were around during ME1. Yes, I know gameplay changed things but I'm working with lore in mind. NPCs not using charge is rather down to tech limits or for gameplay reason I believe. I wouldn't procrustate that into lore. Yeah, I covered the gameplay. However, if gameplay has ZERO to do with lore then why even bother with any sort of consistency between games?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 12, 2019 12:03:29 GMT
Miranda actually fails at keeping the barrier. Only Jack and Samara pull through, if they're loyal. So yeah, Jack might not be as honed, but definitely is a stronger biotic than Miranda. At least she seems to have a bigger biotic reserve, so to speak, to tap into than Miranda. And now I remembered how much fun I had playing ME2 and made me sad again. I've never not done their loyalty missions so I have questions here. What happens if neither of them is loyal? Do your squadmates die?
Also, just to point something out about who can hold the barriers: an asari and a human. I think we have our strongest biotics.
Jack and Samara have an equal hard time, which is why in my opinion they are about as powerful, as biotics, but Samara is definitely better trained, while Jack seems to go at it by sheer force of will, it seems. If you choose anyone else to hold the barrier, regardless if they are loyal or not, at least one of your squadmates die. So Jack is definitely stronger than Miranda as a biotic, though she is no slouch, either.
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Post by Pounce de León on Apr 12, 2019 12:12:20 GMT
NPCs not using charge is rather down to tech limits or for gameplay reason I believe. I wouldn't procrustate that into lore. Yeah, I covered the gameplay. However, if gameplay has ZERO to do with lore then why even bother with any sort of consistency between games? I know what you mean but Mass Effect underwent so drastic gameplay changes I simply developed blissful ignorance to many lore stuff.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 12, 2019 12:28:00 GMT
Yeah, I covered the gameplay. However, if gameplay has ZERO to do with lore then why even bother with any sort of consistency between games? I know what you mean but Mass Effect underwent so drastic gameplay changes I simply developed blissful ignorance to many lore stuff. Charge is covered in lore. It was a result of a new generation of implants. This is my point. It didn't exist until the implants existed to allow for it.
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Post by Pounce de León on Apr 12, 2019 12:34:48 GMT
I know what you mean but Mass Effect underwent so drastic gameplay changes I simply developed blissful ignorance to many lore stuff. Charge is covered in lore. It was a result of a new generation of implants. This is my point. It didn't exist until the implants existed to allow for it. You're probably more by the book than me. I dont remember such detail. I just go: If there's one archtype of in your face vanguards - it's the krogan so they probably invented biotic charge.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 12, 2019 12:50:10 GMT
I know what you mean but Mass Effect underwent so drastic gameplay changes I simply developed blissful ignorance to many lore stuff. Charge is covered in lore. It was a result of a new generation of implants. This is my point. It didn't exist until the implants existed to allow for it. Really? I don't remember that. Does Jack have charge?
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 12, 2019 15:41:05 GMT
Charge is covered in lore. It was a result of a new generation of implants. This is my point. It didn't exist until the implants existed to allow for it. Really? I don't remember that. Does Jack have charge? No. Looks like you got me on this one.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 12, 2019 16:01:21 GMT
Really? I don't remember that. Does Jack have charge? No. Looks like you got me on this one. I think my point is that Jack doesn't actually have an L5 implant.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 12, 2019 17:11:05 GMT
No. Looks like you got me on this one. I think my point is that Jack doesn't actually have an L5 implant. I thought it was the L4's the allowed for Charge. Didn't Jack get an L5 upgrade as part of the research she brings to the table? (Like heavy skin weave.) I think this follows her LM.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 12, 2019 17:39:49 GMT
I think my point is that Jack doesn't actually have an L5 implant. I thought it was the L4's the allowed for Charge. Didn't Jack get an L5 upgrade as part of the research she brings to the table? (Like heavy skin weave.) I think this follows her LM. Did she? I don't remember it that well. I was under the impression that Jack outright lied about her L5 implants. In her early interactions, Shepard asks her if she has any problems with her implants and she brushes it off, saying she's an L5, but it doesn't make sense for her to have an L5.
I mean, according to her timeline, she must have started off young with her biotics, which is probaly 10 years back, at minimum, especially since she was abducted as a baby and at the time she'd only have got and L2 at best and not an L3, since those didn't spike as high. Now, considering Jack's uniqueness, in terms of human biotic potential, as per her Shadow Broker file, would cerberus risk moving her out of a L2 to any other implant? According to the lore, trying to remove L2s could be fatal, or at least have some dire repercussions. Which is why Kaidan is a retrofitted L2, to avoid severe brain damage. And had Jack indeed moved to an L5, where did she get the money to do such a procedure? Or the staff with the medical expertise? Or what about the damage she must have sustained during the move from L2 to another implant? I have a few theories about Jack, but she is definitely lying about something, somewhere and we never got find out about it.
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Post by tatarforas on Apr 12, 2019 17:50:00 GMT
Hmm that's a tough question, I'd say overall based on lore it goes something like this:
1. Aria 2. Samara/Morinth 3. Jack 4. Liara 5. Cora 6. Javik 7. Kaiden 8. Adept/Vanguard Shepard 9. Wrex 10. Miranda
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 12, 2019 17:55:54 GMT
Jacob > Peebee Also Miranda > Liara > Cora
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Post by tatarforas on Apr 12, 2019 18:09:05 GMT
Jacob > Peebee Also Miranda > Liara > Cora
I wouldn't put Miranda above Liara or Cora based on feats but yeah maybe Peebee shouldn't be there.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 12, 2019 18:11:24 GMT
Jacob > Peebee Also Miranda > Liara > Cora
I wouldn't put Miranda above Liara or Cora based on feats but yeah maybe Peebee shouldn't be there. I was just funposting, but for real, Miranda's codex entry has her pegged as one of the best biotics in the galaxy. That is, if I recall correctly.
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Post by tatarforas on Apr 12, 2019 18:19:41 GMT
I wouldn't put Miranda above Liara or Cora based on feats but yeah maybe Peebee shouldn't be there. I was just funposting, but for real, Miranda's codex entry has her pegged as one of the best biotics in the galaxy. Wait really? It's been awhile since I've read any of the characters codex entries, I can seeing her being one of the best human biotics in the galaxy...but one of the best overall? That just doesn't make sense imo. Even with her enhanced genetics there's no way she should be stronger than say a random asari justicar.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 12, 2019 18:25:34 GMT
I was just funposting, but for real, Miranda's codex entry has her pegged as one of the best biotics in the galaxy.Wait really? It's been awhile since I've read any of the characters codex entries, I can seeing her being one of the best human biotics in the galaxy...but one of the best overall? That just doesn't make sense imo. Even with her enhanced genetics there's no way she should be stronger than say a random asari justicar. Well, an asari, on average, is a stronger biotic than a human. Judging by most asari biotics you fight, they're not that much stronger. Even an asari justicar doesn't guarantee you a strong biotic talent. Samara is exceptional, but she wasn't always a justicar. I'm guessing she honed her biotic talents in her mercenary days, as she admits to them in conversations with Shepard in ME2 and later became a Justicar, in order to find some semblance of sanity, as she took it upon herself to hunt her daughter. We're not exactly sure how, when or the exact why she became one, so that's just speculation on my part.
And yeah, if I recall Miranda's codex entry correctly, that's what it should say. It should be available on the ME wiki, but I can't reach it from my work PC.
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Post by opuspace on Apr 13, 2019 2:37:30 GMT
I think my point is that Jack doesn't actually have an L5 implant. I thought it was the L4's the allowed for Charge. Didn't Jack get an L5 upgrade as part of the research she brings to the table? (Like heavy skin weave.) I think this follows her LM. The L5n allows for Charge on Vanguards, the L5x allows for Singularity for Adepts. Jack herself offers an upgrade for a biotic implant on the L5s I think.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 13, 2019 4:47:55 GMT
I thought it was the L4's the allowed for Charge. Didn't Jack get an L5 upgrade as part of the research she brings to the table? (Like heavy skin weave.) I think this follows her LM. Did she? I don't remember it that well. I was under the impression that Jack outright lied about her L5 implants. In her early interactions, Shepard asks her if she has any problems with her implants and she brushes it off, saying she's an L5, but it doesn't make sense for her to have an L5.
I mean, according to her timeline, she must have started off young with her biotics, which is probaly 10 years back, at minimum, especially since she was abducted as a baby and at the time she'd only have got and L2 at best and not an L3, since those didn't spike as high. Now, considering Jack's uniqueness, in terms of human biotic potential, as per her Shadow Broker file, would cerberus risk moving her out of a L2 to any other implant? According to the lore, trying to remove L2s could be fatal, or at least have some dire repercussions. Which is why Kaidan is a retrofitted L2, to avoid severe brain damage. And had Jack indeed moved to an L5, where did she get the money to do such a procedure? Or the staff with the medical expertise? Or what about the damage she must have sustained during the move from L2 to another implant? I have a few theories about Jack, but she is definitely lying about something, somewhere and we never got find out about it.
Hard to say with Jack. She was under Cerberus so who knows what they put in her head. It could have been stuff still in the developmental stage. She's younger than Shepard and Kaidan. Kaidan is an L2 but Shepard, if biotic, is an L3. Similarly, I can imagine Jack being the kind of person willing to risk getting an upgrade to become more powerful. Jack was born in 2161. L3s came out in 2170. It's not impossible she got an L3 and then got herself upgraded.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 13, 2019 13:22:53 GMT
It's not impossible she got an L3 and then got herself upgraded. I don't think Cerberus would have gone with an L3. An L2 implant will spike higher at every chance and there was no guarantee that an L4 or L5 would be more viable and/or powerful. Even if the science team in Pragia could hold off from experimenting on Jack that long. I think that Jack suffers from paranoia and D.I.D. and some of it stems from the L2 implant she got at some point, some from the childhood trauma. Which is why Mordin warns Shepard that Jack might kill him in his sleep, among other little subtle hints around the game.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 13, 2019 14:13:46 GMT
It's not impossible she got an L3 and then got herself upgraded. I don't think Cerberus would have gone with an L3. An L2 implant will spike higher at every chance and there was no guarantee that an L4 or L5 would be more viable and/or powerful. Even if the science team in Pragia could hold off from experimenting on Jack that long. I think that Jack suffers from paranoia and D.I.D. and some of it stems from the L2 implant she got at some point, some from the childhood trauma. Which is why Mordin warns Shepard that Jack might kill him in his sleep, among other little subtle hints around the game. L2 was already outdated. Beyond that, it would likely had made her unusable. I get that Cerberus wasn't overly concerned with the health of the test subjects but it's clear they were expendable in order to make her more powerful.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 13, 2019 14:47:47 GMT
Beyond that, it would likely had made her unusable Which is why Cerberus conditioned her to get off every time she killed someone, so that she could be controlled.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 13, 2019 14:56:23 GMT
Beyond that, it would likely had made her unusable Which is why Cerberus conditioned her to get off every time she killed someone, so that she could be controlled. It's not a matter of control. L2s didn't have migraines nosebleeds or whatever other "horrific side effects" to be had because they just needed to be controlled. Even the wiki says that some are hardly stronger than an L1 while others are strong but unstable. It also says all L2s are around the same age. Sorry, but she had to be an L3. No reason it couldn't have been specially developed by Cerberus but she wasn't an L2. Too much investment in her to risk her not being useful.
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