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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 5, 2019 3:08:51 GMT
DISCLAIMER: I know people who work at DICE and, while I've never made a game with Frostbite, I know a little about its technology and quirks. The Kotaku article "How BioWare's Anthem Went Wrong," and much of the fan reaction to it, blames Frostbite for many problems with Bioware games. That's not only wrong-headed, it misdirects attention from where the real blame should go. Frostbite was designed for very specific game experience goals, like HDR color grading and destructible environments and procedural terrain generation. It's forte is about 3D graphics quality, interaction with the environment, and shared simulation for online multiplayer games. It's a tool for a specific purpose, like a CnC. If someone said, "All woodworking from now on will be done only with a CnC," including things like table legs (lathe is a better tool), joining (miter box is a better tool), and cutting a 2x4 to length (a saw is a better tool), do you blame the CnC for all the problems that ensue? Of course not, you blame the idiot who forced everyone to use a special purpose tool like a multitool one-size-fits-all solution. It's the same with Frostbite. The problem is not Frostbite, the problem is trying to use it for game experiences it wasn't designed for. From the Kotaku article: It's clear from that where the blame should lie. It's should lie with Patrick Soderlund. Then compound that blame with the gladiator-style competition for who got priority for technical support with the engine, instead of having an embedded DICE team at Bioware Edmonton from day one, and is it any surprise that all those ex-Bioware devs hated Frostbite with a passion? They were forced to use something for the wrong purpose, and got no help.
Though I hate to say it, I think basing DA4 on Anthem, and thus Frostbite, is on the whole a net negative. Yes, starting over from scratch for every game is a problem, but continuing to make the same mistake of using the wrong tool for the right job is probably the bigger problem. The only way I could see making this work is taking a tiger team of the smartest and most experienced Frostbite experts from DICE and embedding them in the Bioware studio in Edmonton RIGHT THE FUCK NOW and for the duration. They should remake the engine to be what it is needed to be, no holds barred. By the time they are done, it shouldn't even look like Frostbite any more.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Apr 5, 2019 4:06:18 GMT
Relief isn't coming. Time to switch to Unreal 4. Or build their own tech, something many studios have done.
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 5, 2019 4:17:14 GMT
One of the things I hope this article does is either shame EA into relenting on its mandate to use Frostbite for all new games or to at least give some more technical support to BioWare as they use Frostbite to develop Dragon Age 4.
EA has a pretty dire reputation in the gaming community, but it certainly doesn't help when major exposés are pointing to their Darwinian approach to resources as one of the reasons BioWare's latest game was a huge flop.
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Mobius Y
N3
The Legend Continues
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
XBL Gamertag: Mobius Y
PSN: Mobius_Y
Posts: 878 Likes: 2,129
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Post by Mobius Y on Apr 5, 2019 5:58:48 GMT
Just ditch Frostbite and make all future BioWare games in Roblox. Problem solved.
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Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Gileadan on Apr 5, 2019 6:46:50 GMT
Forcing studios to use Frostbite without proper support and knowhow-building is essentially mismanagement at a publisher level - another layer of mismanagement on top of BioWare's own. No wonder the end results are disastrous.
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...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
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kappaneko
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 5, 2019 7:26:30 GMT
What I wish we could know is if Bioware ever went to their EA contact and actually told them that they're struggling badly with the engine and if maybe they could use a different one. Or did they soldier on in silence, afraid EA would close them down if they admitted that they are no longer able to make good games in Frostbite?
It was a bad situation in any case. Just wondering if EA was even aware how much Bioware struggled with Frostbite. The higher ups can be quite oblivious to such matters if nobody tells them. Not saying EA is blameless, not at all, just curious what the dialogue on this was between EA and Bioware.
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Post by Pounce de León on Apr 5, 2019 7:38:38 GMT
Söderlund is gone now and makes games for daughters. But Frostbite still persists.
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Post by aglomeracja on Apr 5, 2019 7:45:04 GMT
What I wish we could know is if Bioware ever went to their EA contact and actually told them that they're struggling badly with the engine and if maybe they could use a different one. Or did they soldier on in silence, afraid EA would close them down if they admitted that they are no longer able to make good games in Frostbite? It was a bad situation in any case. Just wondering if EA was even aware how much Bioware struggled with Frostbite. The higher ups can be quite oblivious to such matters if nobody tells them. Not saying EA is blameless, not at all, just curious what the dialogue on this was between EA and Bioware. Oh, they knew that for a long time. Bioware struggled with Frostbite during DAI development, MEA's development and now again with Anthem. EA people had to be aware of the problem, especially since it wasn't just Bioware that had it.
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Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Apr 5, 2019 8:02:50 GMT
some things here some things here continue on!
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Post by XCPTNL on Apr 5, 2019 10:33:51 GMT
What I can't understand:
- if EA wants to use one engine for everything which I can totally understand, then why isn't there a dedicated team within EA that is solely responsible for making Frostbite (or another engine) fit all/most of the needs of the studios instead of having the guys at each studio figure out how to realize stuff the engine apparently isn't very well suited for - why aren't other publishers doing this, for example Bethesda: they keep using their stupid engine that is buggy as hell for Fallout when they have a studio like if software under their roof who have been creating engines since basically forever. And id sucks at storytelling. So let them make engine(s) only that fit all the needs and the creative minds can actually use an engine that's not running like shit for once and make good games with it - like the newer Wolfenstein games for example - why do most of the other games running with Frostbite engine work much better from what I can tell. Is the engine really that bad for the games Bioware makes or are they just not very good at figuring stuff out. It's not like their other games they made before with unreal engine work flawlessly. Far from it *cough* ME3MP *cough* - why did nobody (management) at Bioware have a serious talk with EA about using a different engine that better suits their needs after they ran into a lot of problems with their first game made with that engine. Apparently there is always a way to do things differently *looking at Respawn and Apex Legends*
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 5, 2019 15:17:40 GMT
What I wish we could know is if Bioware ever went to their EA contact and actually told them that they're struggling badly with the engine and if maybe they could use a different one. Or did they soldier on in silence, afraid EA would close them down if they admitted that they are no longer able to make good games in Frostbite? That's a good point. It would seem incredible to have covered up the difficulties with Frostbite for so long, since two consecutive games have suffered from that mismatch -- DAI and MEA -- but I've seen similar things happen at places I've worked. Nobody wants to say the emperor has no clothes to the highest level executives that made the decision to consolidate. It's an open indictment of their decision and career limiting in the extreme. Also, there is a possibility of the cure being worse than the disease, or so Bioware may have thought. Suppose that someone with balls did go forward with a plan to drop Frostbite and take up Unreal 4. Soderlend could have then said, "Okay, great, that's -$6 on every unit in license fees it will cost Anthem. How are you going to make that revenue up? You've been against lootboxes from the start, but if you switch to Unreal, I'm going to have to insist on the lootboxes ..." But I do hold the studio accountable for not demanding direct embedded support from DICE at the earliest. That should have been a condition of entering production.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 5, 2019 15:29:29 GMT
- why do most of the other games running with Frostbite engine work much better from what I can tell. Is the engine really that bad for the games Bioware makes or are they just not very good at figuring stuff out. It's not like their other games they made before with unreal engine work flawlessly. Far from it *cough* ME3MP *cough* I wouldn't say they necessarily worked better ... Battlefield 3 and 4 at launch were buggy messes. Battlefield 3 open beta was extremely meme-worthy. It probably was also a combination of both mismatched tool and Bioware not learning/changing fast enough: Frostbite wasn't made for certain critical things, like third-person camera and scripted level design, but Bioware probably also might have been a bit stubborn in terms of how their creative workflow (art assets, level design) wanted to work, instead of adapting that workflow to how Frostbite works best.
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by xrayspex73 on Apr 5, 2019 15:51:15 GMT
They need to ditch Frostbite. Full stop.
Does EA not realize that if Bioware were able to choose a new engine or design their own (which they have done many times before), that it would make Bioware games better thus selling more copies thus more than compensate for licensing costs. The amount of years struggling with an engine that takes longer to do anything in is not saving EA one red cent and the games are suffering because of it.
I can only imagine how much better DAI, MEA and and Anthem would be if they used the tools that allowed them to work faster and iterate more quickly.
At this point, I don't even feel sorry for Bioware anymore. I don't want to hear about how Bioware struggled with Frostbite after DA4 releases (if it does). It's a broken record at this point and I am more mad that they haven't pushed back on EA to allow them to use a different engine. Respawn isn't forced to use Frostbite (and go figure that APEX Legends is probably EA's best game).
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...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
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kappaneko
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 5, 2019 15:51:24 GMT
That's a good point. It would seem incredible to have covered up the difficulties with Frostbite for so long, since two consecutive games have suffered from that mismatch -- DAI and MEA -- but I've seen similar things happen at places I've worked. Nobody wants to say the emperor has no clothes to the highest level executives that made the decision to consolidate. It's an open indictment of their decision and career limiting in the extreme. Also, there is a possibility of the cure being worse than the disease, or so Bioware may have thought. Suppose that someone with balls did go forward with a plan to drop Frostbite and take up Unreal 4. Soderlend could have then said, "Okay, great, that's -$6 on every unit in license fees it will cost Anthem. How are you going to make that revenue up? You've been against lootboxes from the start, but if you switch to Unreal, I'm going to have to insist on the lootboxes ..." But I do hold the studio accountable for not demanding direct embedded support from DICE at the earliest. That should have been a condition of entering production. Oh yeah. I see this constantly which is why I'm asking. Issues are being raised at the beginning of the project, we assume it got passed up the chain of command. We wait. Two months later the issue still persists and now it's becoming a bit of a pressing issue. And 50% of the time it turns out it did NOT get passed on! The person either forgot, was too afraid to ask, or dodging extra work, who knows! Like many bigger companies with different offices and weird hierarchies we are discouraged to raise issues that make the other party look bad, you know how it is. So certain problems keep repeating themselves because though shalt not criticize group X. So we're basically Bioware Austin bowing to Edmonton and EA.
So, I would not be surprised at all if Bioware never directly told EA that things with Frostbite are not improving.
Of course EA must be aware that their engine is causing problems everywhere. But when 80% of your money is made with sports games, how much do you really care if the other studios release lackluster games? If marketing did their job right, these games will still sell well enough.
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legendcncd
Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
LegendCNCD / AsariLoverFI
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Apr 5, 2019 16:11:07 GMT
I wouldn't say they necessarily worked better ... Battlefield 3 and 4 at launch were buggy messes. Battlefield 3 open beta was extremely meme-worthy. It probably was also a combination of both mismatched tool and Bioware not learning/changing fast enough: Frostbite wasn't made for certain critical things, like third-person camera and scripted level design, but Bioware probably also might have been a bit stubborn in terms of how their creative workflow (art assets, level design) wanted to work, instead of adapting that workflow to how Frostbite works best. About the camera ... its moveable. Theres nothing restricting 3rd person view. Others we can just guess. I'm very puzzled about some stuff in this thread. Its just mostly people dont understand things. Too tired to address them all. (Not pointing to papacharlie)
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Post by biggydx on Apr 5, 2019 16:41:31 GMT
What I wish we could know is if Bioware ever went to their EA contact and actually told them that they're struggling badly with the engine and if maybe they could use a different one. Or did they soldier on in silence, afraid EA would close them down if they admitted that they are no longer able to make good games in Frostbite? That's a good point. It would seem incredible to have covered up the difficulties with Frostbite for so long, since two consecutive games have suffered from that mismatch -- DAI and MEA -- but I've seen similar things happen at places I've worked. Nobody wants to say the emperor has no clothes to the highest level executives that made the decision to consolidate. It's an open indictment of their decision and career limiting in the extreme. Also, there is a possibility of the cure being worse than the disease, or so Bioware may have thought. Suppose that someone with balls did go forward with a plan to drop Frostbite and take up Unreal 4. Soderlend could have then said, "Okay, great, that's -$6 on every unit in license fees it will cost Anthem. How are you going to make that revenue up? You've been against lootboxes from the start, but if you switch to Unreal, I'm going to have to insist on the lootboxes ..." But I do hold the studio accountable for not demanding direct embedded support from DICE at the earliest. That should have been a condition of entering production. But based on the article, it doesnt seem like they [BioWare] would have had a say regardless. If EA didnt want to devote DICE engineers to Anthem/Andromeda, they only needed to make the call and move them to another project/studio.
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Post by Superhik on Apr 5, 2019 17:04:48 GMT
Bioware announces, at next E3: We're making DA4 on...Unreal Engine!
The crowd roars...
Seriously though, why in gods name, did they think this was a good idea. Their games are polar opposite of what this engine was designed for. How the article, and his own previous statements describe, it seems that idiot Sonderlund is easily wowed by game's visuals. But are they really that important? It matters more, that you have a unique product on the market that's simultaneously has some kind of psychological "pull" for the masses ( like with TES)
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 5, 2019 17:05:00 GMT
One of the things I hope this article does is either shame EA into relenting on its mandate to use Frostbite for all new games or to at least give some more technical support to BioWare as they use Frostbite to develop Dragon Age 4.
EA has a pretty dire reputation in the gaming community, but it certainly doesn't help when major exposés are pointing to their Darwinian approach to resources as one of the reasons BioWare's latest game was a huge flop.
I would hope so myself, but EA ultimately won't, because Bioware isn't bringing in the cash, which means that they aren't worth investing into. Is the fact that Bioware lies at the bottom of EA's food chain good PR? Of course not. Will this move EA in any way? Not a hitch. Unfortunately, Bioware's best bet with Frostbyte right now, is that there are people working on a new iteration of the engine for next gen consoles, which could be coming as soon as Q1 2020, or so it is being said, and being more user friendly and responsive to what it currently is.
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 5, 2019 17:08:11 GMT
If public perception meant nothing, they wouldn’t have invested effort and money into expensive mo-cap to make Anthem “unmemeable.”
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Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
LegendCNCD / AsariLoverFI
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Apr 5, 2019 17:30:54 GMT
And the facepalms were heard to another universe... I'm officially out of the thread.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Posts: 285 Likes: 502
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Post by xrayspex73 on Apr 5, 2019 17:42:17 GMT
And the facepalms were heard to another universe... I'm officially out of the thread.
Because you were contributing so much I don't know what this thread would do without you.
Please expound your virtuous knowledge about Frostbite and how we are all so uneducated. Tell us how we have no idea what we are talking about (even when we are just echoing what Bioware has said about the engine).
But I am sure you know better.
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Post by Steelcan on Apr 5, 2019 17:43:09 GMT
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Post by degs29 on Apr 5, 2019 18:04:57 GMT
Um, isn't that what everyone has been saying? They aren't blaming Frostbite, they're saying it was the wrong engine for the game/studio in question.
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Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Apr 5, 2019 18:16:58 GMT
but I'm out of the thread!
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Dejected Mind
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by tatarforas on Apr 5, 2019 18:38:04 GMT
What I can't understand: - if EA wants to use one engine for everything which I can totally understand, then why isn't there a dedicated team within EA that is solely responsible for making Frostbite (or another engine) fit all/most of the needs of the studios instead of having the guys at each studio figure out how to realize stuff the engine apparently isn't very well suited for - why aren't other publishers doing this, for example Bethesda: they keep using their stupid engine that is buggy as hell for Fallout when they have a studio like if software under their roof who have been creating engines since basically forever. And id sucks at storytelling. So let them make engine(s) only that fit all the needs and the creative minds can actually use an engine that's not running like shit for once and make good games with it - like the newer Wolfenstein games for example - why do most of the other games running with Frostbite engine work much better from what I can tell. Is the engine really that bad for the games Bioware makes or are they just not very good at figuring stuff out. It's not like their other games they made before with unreal engine work flawlessly. Far from it *cough* ME3MP *cough* - why did nobody (management) at Bioware have a serious talk with EA about using a different engine that better suits their needs after they ran into a lot of problems with their first game made with that engine. Apparently there is always a way to do things differently *looking at Respawn and Apex Legends* Yeah no, BF3 and 4 were buggy as hell for the first year or so that were out and as someone who does play sports games (don't h8 plz) FIFA in particular become noticeably buggier after the switch to Frostbite. The engine is simply aids to work with evidently.
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