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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 9, 2019 19:03:01 GMT
The history of Joplin actually reminds me of the original concept for DAI that we were shown. Back in 2013 we had the first teaser trailer with Morrigan narrating. Shortly after that they had a demo for people to sample at one of the game shows. That original version had a lot of reactivity in the game world with multiple options for resolving a scenario. In particular it showcased Crestwood under attack by red Templars, who had arrived by boats that we could set alight to prevent their escape. The conquest of the Keep was on a timer, so you could opt to save the village but at the possible risk of losing the Keep or focus on the Keep and the village would be destroyed, etc. They had also suggested each Keep could be customisable, depending on whether you wished to make the focus of your organisation diplomacy, spying or martial.
This version of the game had been worked on for the best part of 2 years and yet a greater part of the concept was ditched when DAI shipped in 2014. Only Skyhold was customisable and this was purely cosmetic. The focus of your Inquisition that appeared in the final epilogue was determined by choices you made on the War Table. The Crestwood plot in particular had changed drastically from the original vision, so I would imagine other areas probably had as well. According to DG we only got half the story, which seems borne out by the fact that Corypheus was an underwhelming big bad, more like the side-kick of the main antagonist, which in fact he effectively was, even though he personally wasn't aware of it.
So the vision they had for Joplin sounds a lot like the original concept they had for DAI that was shelved. I still wonder (and grieve) about the game that might have been that was hinted at in that first trailer and demo for DAI but I still enjoyed what we finally received. The most depressing part for me about the article is that if it was shelved in the autumn of 2017 and then subsequently rebooted, just when are we going to get DA4? It is 18 months on with nothing but that tiny teaser trailer to give us any idea what to expect.
I'm not keen on the idea that I would have to be permanently on-line to play the game but I suppose I could live with it provided it is still essentially a single-player game. However, I definitely would not want to have my experience determined by other people's choices.
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 9, 2019 19:03:18 GMT
”Anthem with Dragons" on the other hand sounds horrible and disgusting. That would kill the franchise for me. Trust in the road map! THE ROAD MAAAAAAP Actually, the article suggests it won’t be Anthem with Dragons, so that’s a small relief. It’s just not clear what else it will be, which is cause for worry.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Apr 9, 2019 19:04:50 GMT
""Reading lots of feedback regarding Dragon Age, and I think you’ll be relieved to see what the team is working on. Story & character focused. Too early to talk details, but when we talk about ‘live’ it just means designing a game for continued storytelling after the main story.”"" If 'live service' means they extend the main storyline with a series of DLC, I can live with that, as long as they don't short the initial offering and it is as compelling as Dragon Age games have been in the past. The worrisome bit to me is the idea of using multiplayer to tie these add-ons together. I am allergic to multiplayer, both organized and PUG. But why feel the need to rename something that has existed for a very long time already, thus the need to re-explain it, if it stays the same? Bioware games have had their stories supplemented by DLCs since the first Mass Effect, heck, you could say since the days of Baldur's Gate and NWN. Those DLCs have changed and have been re-contextualized to be smaller than Expansion Packs and to also include item packs but the basic gist is that they were exactly what Hudson described, continued storytelling after the main story.
The DA franchise itself has had its story supplemented by DLC since the first installment: DAO: 3 story DLCs during the main story, 3 after, 1 prequel, 1 as an alternate universe to the main story DA2: 3 story DLCs during the main story, 1 planned to be after but was scrapped to make DAI
DAI: 2 story DLC that could be either during the main story or after, 1 that is definitely after the main story.
Renaming "post launch story support" to "live service" is a clumsy image move if the practice essentially stays the same and only the name changes.
If the practice also changes, that brings about questions about what is it changing to and you can't be confused why people keep asking about it when you don't clearly define what it is you're changing (and in some cases, why).
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Post by Iakus on Apr 9, 2019 19:07:54 GMT
""Reading lots of feedback regarding Dragon Age, and I think you’ll be relieved to see what the team is working on. Story & character focused. Too early to talk details, but when we talk about ‘live’ it just means designing a game for continued storytelling after the main story.”"" If 'live service' means they extend the main storyline with a series of DLC, I can live with that, as long as they don't short the initial offering and it is as compelling as Dragon Age games have been in the past. The worrisome bit to me is the idea of using multiplayer to tie these add-ons together. I am allergic to multiplayer, both organized and PUG. They've been doing that for years, and apparently that's doesn't count as "live service"
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Post by colfoley on Apr 9, 2019 19:12:18 GMT
Re reading through the posted bits ( i refuse to give Kotaku clicks) and recontectualizing things I'm actually very curious by the ideas presented. Sounds like... Hopefully... A cross between GRW and TOR. And that's all they mean by players from across the globe having an input in choices is the people in your party all having to agree... Like TOR. Which is... Still kind of annoying actually, but if i have PSP when DA 4 comes out i could see me making an alt so i can play through if a friend wants to join. Maybe.
Doubt it will be always online but i will be less then amused if it means our companions will just be AI place holders for real people.
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Post by coldsteelblue on Apr 9, 2019 19:13:17 GMT
well, that's interesting, not sure what my mindset is yet, still digesting, but the idea of having the outcome decided by the globe does put a bad taste in my mouth, as there's only 1 person I want making decision in the game I am playing, plus, that gives me the option of replayability, something I have done with every DA game, well, now all we can do is wait & see what comes out.
Just my thoughts.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2019 19:16:55 GMT
But why feel the need to rename something that has existed for a very long time already It's a new and popular marketing term for methods of monetization. Basically it's the new hip corporate-speak for the shareholders to hear, so that they think that the company is innovating, though they're just repackaging what already exists.
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Post by wright1978 on Apr 9, 2019 19:17:52 GMT
""Reading lots of feedback regarding Dragon Age, and I think you’ll be relieved to see what the team is working on. Story & character focused. Too early to talk details, but when we talk about ‘live’ it just means designing a game for continued storytelling after the main story.”"" If 'live service' means they extend the main storyline with a series of DLC, I can live with that, as long as they don't short the initial offering and it is as compelling as Dragon Age games have been in the past. The worrisome bit to me is the idea of using multiplayer to tie these add-ons together. I am allergic to multiplayer, both organized and PUG. They've been doing that for years, and apparently that's doesn't count as "live service" At some point soon they have to front up and actually explain what they mean by live service in a sp rpg setting because as you say it’s clearly not sp dlc per say.
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Post by Gileadan on Apr 9, 2019 19:19:18 GMT
Well, isn't that great. Another promising project butchered on the altar of failures beginning with an A and resurrected as a live service abomination.
I'll consider myself duly warned.
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Post by mgsmsc on Apr 9, 2019 19:21:41 GMT
I wouldn't mind the community altering your game if it were along the lines of Demon's Souls world tendency mechanic. That was quite good, subtle enough to not get really annoying and could be changed offline if you were after something in particular.
Fingers crossed on end product.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 9, 2019 19:39:38 GMT
I guess that means the earliest the next da game could be released is 2022, if not later
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Post by midnight tea on Apr 9, 2019 19:41:21 GMT
I wouldn't mind the community altering your game if it were along the lines of Demon's Souls world tendency mechanic. That was quite good, subtle enough to not get really annoying and could be changed offline if you were after something in particular. Fingers crossed on end product. Yea, I wouldn't pre-judge a vague idea when we really don't know how that idea would be executed. No amount of "I don't want X" will make an X not show up, given that we don't really know what the X actually is. I have my doubts whether DA team or BW in general would go into great experimentation there or bet their game's fate into this one system (it can't really be a significant narrative beat if they want to continue the story past DA4, for example) - and who knows, maybe it will be something fun? Dragon Age has a lot of open space to experiment there with the concept of the Fade, where nothing is ever certain or set in stone, so they can have these short, encapsulated narratives or events that may be driven by collective community choices, player score or whatevs - and that's regardless of the fact that if players will like a certain thing the devs may just pivot towards it (as they did many times in the past), and because the code allows it they'd be able to make adjustments or create new content faster than in any previous traditional title of theirs and thus some narrative can be shaped collectively by players *that* way. Like, 'oh, community wants THIS romance continuation or that scene? Okay^^...' I wonder how many people would have objections to that.
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 9, 2019 19:42:33 GMT
I guess that means the earliest the next da game could be released is 2022, if not later Yep, I'd agree. For me the gist of this is that they basically just started pretty much from scratch just recently and have almost no idea yet where to go exactly.
But it also sounds like EA had no strong hesitation to shut Joplin down because it was pretty SP focused, so I will assume they'll build some form of MP mechanic into the core gameplay, be that mild, like some drop-in coop for companions or strong to he level of Anthem, that remains to be seen but unless something drastic will shift EA's stance on this it sounds like that will be their only way to get the support they'd need from the mother company.
And to me, that does not bode well to be honest.
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 9, 2019 19:43:24 GMT
Well, Joplin sounds like it was planned to be awesome.
But it’s also entirely unclear how much of that has actually changed with Morrison. The article is disappointingly lacking in actual information.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Apr 9, 2019 19:43:38 GMT
Here comes another trainwreck by the looks of it, almost five years they're still figuring what the game will even look like. What has Bioware turned into? Geez. I think that's likely one part of it, but based on the article, it sounds like this delay in the games vision was stifled because of EA mandating that all their games have live-service (in 2017). The original concept probably didn't have this in mind, and why the project had to be rebooted that same year. Another problem, that likely had an even bigger impact, was the Dragon Age team constantly having to be reassigned to another project (like Andromeda or Anthem), and that they didn't get enough opportunities to really focus on the game. We can expect something akin to AC Odyssey in terms of live service, I would say. But again, they're struggling with coming up with a vision for another game, five years after the predecessor for numerous reasons, but still a thing, and why would they scrap everything together just because EA demanded more monetization in the game? We've seen games add and remove that after launch, like Shadow Of War. Andromeda was an worse Inquisition in terms of development, Anthem was worse than Andromeda in the same regard, what will DA4 be now? I was told before here that this was the "A" Bioware team working on Anthem and that they wouldn't mess this up again. Welph.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Apr 9, 2019 19:51:05 GMT
Omg. I had a feeling it'd be spies. I'm not sure if that idea came from Patrick Weekes, but damn does it sound like him. And it really sucks that the one game whose production was going well was eaten up by the other productions that were on fire. Absolutely devastating.
Bioware is going to need to learn how to juggle with EA's expectations and what the studio is generally known for - strong, story-driven RPG's with memorable characters and experiences. DA4 can be a great game with live-service elements, if done right. I mean, would it be too crazy to serve these live-service elements, but make them more story driven (EA sir, would it)? Add additional story content in the world, characters, have a town start from nothing and watch it grow into a small settlement with new NPC's and quests. Of course the world cannot start out empty, but think of, say, when Mother Giselle in Trespasser states that the Dales are healing and growing after the Inquisitor's involvement. Instead of hearing about it, you experience it yourself. That'd be an awesome way to include live-service elements. Less surface, more substantial, and totally Bioware.
I realize that to serve the EA gods, we would have to buy this new content. To do this, they could set it up in years. $$.$$ for a year to pass in-game, $$.$$ for the next year. Watch your world grow through the choices you make. I know that it would most likely be hella expensive to produce with new voice-acting and what not- but damn, that sounds enticing enough for me as an RPG player and it works within the realm of what Bioware is known for. Whatever they come up with, I hope they really remember what Dragon Age, and Bioware, is about.
As far as playing with other players, let's have them sub in as one of our companions and leave it at that. I'm the star of my story, thanks!
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Post by bladefist on Apr 9, 2019 19:54:05 GMT
Well, at least I don't have to wait 3 + years for the "What Went Wrong With Dragon Age 4" article.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 9, 2019 19:54:48 GMT
I was hoping we’d get some information on who the protagonist is going to be, whether the Inquisitor returning or confirmation they’re not and is somebody new.
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Post by Gileadan on Apr 9, 2019 19:57:35 GMT
I was hoping we’d get some information on who the protagonist is going to be, whether the Inquisitor returning or confirmation they’re not and is somebody new. Spoiler...
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Post by wright1978 on Apr 9, 2019 20:00:22 GMT
I was hoping we’d get some information on who the protagonist is going to be, whether the Inquisitor returning or confirmation they’re not and is somebody new. Reading between the lines Joplin sounded like a new protagonist which is what I want. who knows now.
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Post by Little Bengel on Apr 9, 2019 20:02:10 GMT
OK... so the only new thing here, essentially, is the information regarding Joplin's general concept. It is a pretty meaty portion of the article, however.
The concept of Tevinter espionage and branching areas depending on your choices sounds very interesting, and (as the article said) very ambitious. I could definitely go for a game like that, and I'm kinda sad that it may not go that way, to be honest. That said, it's still kinda early to properly discern what form of live-service elements DA4 might have (as they can take many forms), although if they go online-only it'll be a major shitshow, no matter the quality. Plus, after Trespasser, I don't know if I'd like to play such a game unless it dealt with the revelations surrounding Solas and the ancient elves. (I mean, it most certainly would, but reading it gave me a slight feeling that it could have gone otherwise...)
Regarding Schreier's LS speculations: for co-op, it's not a new concept in RPGs: Baldur's Gate (at least the Enhanced Edition) had it, Neverwinter Nights had it, and while I never played Divinity OS II, I've seen that it also has co-op. So that's honestly the least concerning part regarding potential multiplayer elements. As for the quests changing based on worldwide choices... not a big fan on a conceptual level, and I don't think they can implement that in a satisfying way. That said, the comments about DA constantly changing make me think there's a chance, however slight, that they'll stick to a MP mode more along the lines of DAI. After all, there's this excerpt right here: One person close to the game told me this week that Morrison’s critical path, or main story, would be designed for single-player and that goal of the multiplayer elements would be to keep people engaged so that they would actually stick with post-launch content. Single-player downloadable content like Dragon Age: Inquisition’s Trespasser, while often excellent, typically sells only a fraction of the main game, according to developers from BioWare and elsewhere across the industry.
I do want to note two things, though:
1. At least some part of Joplin's vision is intended to shape Morrison. Now, I dunno if it's the story premise, the general concept of spycraft and non-static locations, a reduced emphasis on fetch quests or some (if not all/none) of the above, but there's still a chance that some of Joplin's DNA will influence Morrison's general direction moving forward. It still remains to be seen just how much so.
2. The reboot is a clean slate. At least budget-wise it is, but one thing I'm taking from this is that, reading through the article, they're still deciding on the general model, which can swing either way.
Overall, not as hopeful as I might've hoped for, but not as damning as I feared. It's just barely hanging in the balance at this point.
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Post by Grog Muffins on Apr 9, 2019 20:02:48 GMT
Considering you need a game to be officially announced before you can talk about the protagonist, I don't think there was ever a chance we'd get anything about this at this point. All we have is a teaser and devs and writers constantly reminding people there's been no DA4 announcement. As far as they're concerned, anything outside the teaser is off limits or doesn't exist.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 9, 2019 20:02:49 GMT
I was hoping we’d get some information on who the protagonist is going to be, whether the Inquisitor returning or confirmation they’re not and is somebody new. Spoiler... Then as I've said before, they could not have failed any harder and they are every bit the overrated hacks the haters say they are. Also makes that DLC the worst they've ever made since it completely ruins the protagonist and game. I was hoping we’d get some information on who the protagonist is going to be, whether the Inquisitor returning or confirmation they’re not and is somebody new. Reading between the lines Joplin sounded like a new protagonist which is what I want. who knows now. It read a bit that way to me too, which is a big reason why I'm glad to hear they scrapped Joplin.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 9, 2019 20:03:51 GMT
They've been doing that for years, and apparently that's doesn't count as "live service" At some point soon they have to front up and actually explain what they mean by live service in a sp rpg setting because as you say it’s clearly not sp dlc per say. Well, the goals are pretty clear. The issue, in their terms, is "engagement"; how long do players keep playing? Most SP RPG players are strictly one and-done. Play a character through the campaign, and then it's on to the next game. (If they finish even once, that is.) Drop a DLC in a few months, and some of those players will check back in. But most won't. The trick is to keep the bulk of players playing long enough to actually sell DLC. MP-focused games stick around longer because players are engaged with each other, rather than the campaign. Heavily and easily moddable games stick around too, but that strategy isn't available with Frostbite. I don't know what other strategies are available. I hear AC does something now, but I don't know what. One problem with discussing this here is that the most of the people on this board are pretty much out of the target demographic for the feature. We're not the ones who need to be lured into sticking around.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Apr 9, 2019 20:05:23 GMT
Dragon Age 4, you say? Live service, built on Anthem you say?
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