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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 18, 2019 7:43:56 GMT
One is a game the other a movie. Like in: completely different experiences. So what? The point is still the same, which is that remaking/rebooting is not necessarily bad for a franchise. Do I need to take a game example? Ok. Was Pokemon Heart Gold & Soul Silver the raping of Pokemon Gold & Silver? Was Ninja Gaiden Black the raping of Ninja Gaiden? Was the 2016 Doom the raping of 1993 Doom? Was the 2013 Tomb Raider the raping of 1996 Tomb Raider? There's Metroid, Mortal Kombat, God of War... Upcoming there will be Final Fantasy VII... The original Mass Effect was released almost 12 years ago. There is little reason for not trying a reboot. Those were mostly completely different games. Cant say for the console stuff. Is that what you want? A completely new story with new characters?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 18, 2019 11:29:16 GMT
Would the games have made more money if they'd been delayed? I don't know when the optimal release points were, and I don't have the data to second-guess EA with any confidence. I don't know if they would have sold more copies. I mean, I think that it would be naive not to think so, but I can't know for certain and that they could have sold an extra 10-15% in the early months or so, but they would have got a lot less refunds and there would not be a need for damage control PR campaigns, like the "it's the journey, not the destination that counts", which, make no mistakes, it costs the company money. It also impacts sales performance of future titles, market reception and brand name. If you continue to underdeliver on promises and increase customer discontent and sure, you can make up for lost market share with whales, but not all whales jump to every new game, nor are they going to jump into your game, if your studio has a bad rep and you've released a subpar product, or will stick around if its an online game that bleeds its community in the first few months.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 18, 2019 12:31:40 GMT
A completely new story with new characters? The problem with that is that, well, they tried it. They tried it and it failed. The tone, characterization, pretty much everything about Andromeda was criticized and the thing most reviewers had to say was that Andromeda turned out lacking and how inferior it felt, compared to the OT. Also, as Anthem proved, you can't base reception on the promise of "it'll be fixed with patches/expansions/DLC", so that the point Andromeda could have been fixed in a year from launch, proves that the could is a very big one and just because they could, doesn't mean they would. Also, since Bioware can't, realistically, develop another new IP, will most likely stay away from an Anthem 2 and they won't develop a DA5, without knowing the reception and performance of DA4 first, what else do they have to work with? The only thing they can work on, in the meantime, is ME. So what would you rather them do? Andromeda 2? Or have them remaster ME OT in Frostbyte for the PS5/Project Scarlet etc.? I'd go for the later. Not sure if I'd let them go for a complete remake, because then they'd have the creative liberty to rewrite the established characters into new personalities. And you can bet that would suck, just as it sucked with Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 18, 2019 12:55:30 GMT
A completely new story with new characters? The problem with that is that, well, they tried it. They tried it and it failed. The tone, characterization, pretty much everything about Andromeda was criticized and the thing most reviewers had to say was that Andromeda turned out lacking and how inferior it felt, compared to the OT. Also, as Anthem proved, you can't base reception on the promise of "it'll be fixed with patches/expansions/DLC", so that the point Andromeda could have been fixed in a year from launch, proves that the could is a very big one and just because they could, doesn't mean they would. Also, since Bioware can't, realistically, develop another new IP, will most likely stay away from an Anthem 2 and they won't develop a DA5, without knowing the reception and performance of DA4 first, what else do they have to work with? The only thing they can work on, in the meantime, is ME. So what would you rather them do? Andromeda 2? Or have them remaster ME OT in Frostbyte for the PS5/Project Scarlet etc.? I'd go for the later. Not sure if I'd let them go for a complete remake, because then they'd have the creative liberty to rewrite the established characters into new personalities. And you can bet that would suck, just as it sucked with Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear. Not sure why they wouldn't have any other IPs in drawer? I mean a game dev without ideas - what is that?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 18, 2019 13:00:52 GMT
Not sure why they wouldn't have any other IPs in drawer? They have at least one that got canceled and I don't think it'll be revived. Their other foray into a new IP was Anthem and that's the one that survived, btw. So you can imagine the state of the other one. I mean a game dev without ideas - what is that? Bioware?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2019 13:39:08 GMT
Forgive my bluntness, but Benezia's death scene is a load of horsepucky from either the perspective of logos or pathos. That's why I brought it up. That scene is not well executed and the other scene I mentioned arguably was but failed to connect because it's very railroaded. That said they don't seem to go on for too long and were surrounded by moments of player agency giving the player the opportunity to goof up the surrounding context, take it seriously or move it along neutrally. ME3 hamstrings the emotion throughout the experience and has very big, indulgent sequences with Kai Leng; with Ashley or Kaidan; with the dumb kid and even parts of Tuchanka and Rannoch. Any part of the game hampers itself to am extent to force emotion on the player when they don't have a choice to reject it unlike previous games. Andromeda has the same vibe and it is felt right down to the increase in piano music and ethereal sounding soundscapes. This is just not that recognizable anymore as Mass Effect in my opinion. We need back more of an Alien meets Bladerunner meets Babylon 5 vibe and not this Hollywood meets superemotional a la soap opera with Michael Bay explosions and Inception noises crap. Pure reversion to ME1's style is not the answer though because ME3 also has some of the best "choreographed" scenes in the franchise with logos and pathos working together better than they had in the previous games. That's why I broke it apart the way I did. Logos and pathos have to work together. If pathos fails, it disrupts logos as well. The genophage sequence has a LOT of player agency as well... that wasn't sacrificed to make the scene feel much more organic. The emotions make sense regardless of how the player comes to that point. The events respond appropriately to the different decisions made by the player. If Wreav is in charge, it makes sense to be able to convince Mordin to sabotage the genophage. If Wrex is in charge, then convincing Mordin becomes impossible. That's appropriate because the player doesn't and shouldn't have total agency over how the various NPC's in the game react to the PC. The player's agency should be limited to agency over the PC.
If Kai Leng's scene had an opposing situation such that Shepard's reaction depended upon how the player got there, it would have been better... people would likely have hardly noticed the Leng's plot armor and Shepard been merely given a few options to react differently to the situation. It's much the same in Andromeda. It's not that the scenes are badly choreographed. It's that that the players wanted a wider range of alternatives. The issue, in part, I believe was that Bioware did not want to have to deal with the same degree of variances among individual playthroughs as they failed at dealing with regarding ME3's endings. They wanted to try sending us all into ME:A2 with basically the same sort of Ryder and the same sort of situation. Problem is the fan base has rejected that sort of compromise (and it is a compromise... because producing all decisions with the same sort of organic responses in opposing ways IS going to be very, very expensive and labor intensive to make... perhaps simply too expensive and too labor intensive to make). Still, I don't want to go back to ME1 where the PC can act in numerous different ways and the NPCs always react pretty much the same way regardless or where the choreography of the scene jumps around inappropriately to bring the NPCs movements to a singular stance.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 18, 2019 14:48:40 GMT
Also, since Bioware can't, realistically, develop another new IP, will most likely stay away from an Anthem 2 and they won't develop a DA5, without knowing the reception and performance of DA4 first, what else do they have to work with? The only thing they can work on, in the meantime, is ME. So what would you rather them do? Andromeda 2? Or have them remaster ME OT in Frostbyte for the PS5/Project Scarlet etc.? I'd go for the later. Not sure if I'd let them go for a complete remake, because then they'd have the creative liberty to rewrite the established characters into new personalities. And you can bet that would suck, just as it sucked with Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear. Why can't they? Failure of one IP can't imply that future IPs will fail, or Jade Empire would have doomed Mass Effect and Dragon Age.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 18, 2019 15:34:20 GMT
Jade Empire would have doomed Mass Effect and Dragon Age From reports on that, it very nearly did, which is why the doctors looked to sell Bioware to a big publisher. However, my point is that if Bioware took seven years to come up with Anthem, which has proven to be, uh, interesting? As an investment. The point is: does EA trust in Bioware enough to develop another IP, in another 7 years, to produce another Anthem?
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 18, 2019 16:16:09 GMT
But the problems post JE were purely financial and have no relevance post-EA acquisition, and the problems with Anthem are pretty much about the gameplay. If Anthem proved that Bio can't be trusted with a new IP, it would also prove that Bio can't be trusted with old IPs.
You're conflating the issues because you want to see more ME, I think. the more of these threads I read the less convinced I become that this actually makes business sense.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 18, 2019 16:42:17 GMT
But the problems post JE were purely financial and have no relevance post-EA acquisition, and the problems with Anthem are pretty much about the gameplay I'd argue they are twofold. On the one hand you have a new IP, that the established fanbase didn't really care for, enjoyed a lot of bad blood, because a lot of people accused it for Andromeda's condition, you have a couple, at least, titles that have underperformed financially and a management so bent on chasing trends that they forget what made Bioware what it is, or was. With the series of strikes Bioware has committed, had they not been acquired by EA, they would surely have ceased to exist. On the other hand, Bioware must really be feeling the threat of being next on the chopping block. And I do not, exactly, trust them with their old IPs, but as I have said before, in the Milky Way, in the OT, there is a blueprint, that they can stick to and not fuck up.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 18, 2019 17:20:09 GMT
I can see, say, two months to clean up facial animations in ME:A. That might have done somethibg I don't see 2 months for the facial animations being enough. Like we've already established, from multiple reviewers giving their own takes, Andromeda's problems ran far deeper, from the MMO-like quests with little to no substance behind them, the enemy placements and poorly thought out encounters, level design, AI, loot mechanics, crafting mechanics, combat, skills, UI, the jetpack, poor Q&A, general writing problems etc. We're talking having to take down the game, as it is, and relaunching it into something that would garner better critiques and not outright roasting.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jul 19, 2019 7:54:56 GMT
Pure reversion to ME1's style is not the answer though because ME3 also has some of the best "choreographed" scenes in the franchise with logos and pathos working together better than they had in the previous games. I'm a bit iffy on that. It had some, yeah. It's pretty sparse. They always try pretty hard but if I had to give any game of the series any award for supreme cinematic direction and choreography it would be ME2. Obviously, hats off for the final scenes of Tuchanka and I really love the choreography between Anderson's final conversation and the meeting with the kid, but otherwise I thought ME3 was amateur as hell in regards to choreography. It has more of it but it's overdone and not very well motivated a lot of the time... Like in the intro when Shepard slides down to shield himself from the reaper blast or those insanely awkward truck air spins throughout the game. That stuff has nothing on the interrupt moments of the core ME2 game or the subtle emotional shots of Garrus when he's gonna take out Sidonis or the moment when you realize how fucked the Normandy just got in the opening.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2019 11:35:19 GMT
Pure reversion to ME1's style is not the answer though because ME3 also has some of the best "choreographed" scenes in the franchise with logos and pathos working together better than they had in the previous games. I'm a bit iffy on that. It had some, yeah. It's pretty sparse. They always try pretty hard but if I had to give any game of the series any award for supreme cinematic direction and choreography it would be ME2. Obviously, hats off for the final scenes of Tuchanka and I really love the choreography between Anderson's final conversation and the meeting with the kid, but otherwise I thought ME3 was amateur as hell in regards to choreography. It has more of it but it's overdone and not very well motivated a lot of the time... Like in the intro when Shepard slides down to shield himself from the reaper blast or those insanely awkward truck air spins throughout the game. That stuff has nothing on the interrupt moments of the core ME2 game or the subtle emotional shots of Garrus when he's gonna take out Sidonis or the moment when you realize how fucked the Normandy just got in the opening. Generally, I thought the choreography in ME2 was well done. The scenes with Shepard blocking Garrus' shot were particularly well done... good use of building tension. The intro... I'm iffy on that. I found the ejection of Shepard into space followed by the leaking of his/her suit to be over the top and completely unrealistic. Also the shots from the Collector ship don't really coincide with the damage the ship sustained and I felt somewhat intentionally mislead when Shepard emerges from a largely undamaged stairway and door to finding the hull above that door almost completely got. They could have done a lot better without expending a lot more resources on the scenes, IMO. I admit that the sliding down the building was not well done, however it was a somewhat realistic portrayal of the Vancouver port area; and I thought that was pretty cool at the time. I thought the scene with the kid running to the shuttles and the shuttles getting shot down was well done and I personally like ME3's intro over ME2's overall. My favorite intro ahead of the title appearing, however, goes to ME:A (Alec's monologue). It does deteriorate from the point where that monologue ends and I do think a better intro may have helped draw people into the story. "We made it." just didn't cut it. IMO, they would have been better off showing the ship hitting the scourge and Alec and the captain trying to contain the damage as orders are given to wake the PC and twin. Putting the peril on the back burner to introduce the PC and SAM using a mundane conversation with the doctor was a mistake, IMO.
As you've almost noted, however, the purposes of those shots are different than the tension building ones of pointing the gun at Mordin or Shepard blocking Garrus' shot.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 19, 2019 12:31:16 GMT
@upagain And then you are reminded of the dream sequences.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2019 13:48:22 GMT
@upagain And then you are reminded of the dream sequences. So... your point?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 19, 2019 14:05:05 GMT
@upagain And then you are reminded of the dream sequences. So... your point? Just adding a few more scenes to the pile.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jul 19, 2019 19:23:54 GMT
I personally like ME3's intro over ME2's overall. You... You like the desk-dodging and the awkward attempts at shaky cam and walking through a crowd to the way Shepard dies in ME2? Also, while I admit the actual cause and moment of death was weakly directed, the good stuff happens from the start you enter the interior of the ship and to when the player enters the CIC to see the blown off hull and antigravity objects in beautiful lighting and bits of screen shaking. The intro to ME3 has so much forced and even nonsensical emotion, from the out of character expository delivery between Shepard and Anderson, informing each other what each other knows to the way they awkwardly dodge oncoming people and the way there's a triple of people announcing names when you bunch into Ash/Kaidan... And the nonsensical trial which ends on a giant curved desk rotating in one piece and Shepard dodging it - I mean... That is terrible-ass choreography lol. Even Shepard's knockback into the bench and rolling off was a strange choice of action. I always found it cringey. I feel ME2 and 3 are really similar overall in choreography and style but they often force it more and for longer stretches in 3 which highlights its mediocrity more. The crux of it all is again that in order to achieve such "seamless, continuous chorepgraphy" as "an improvement over ME2" BioWare had to reduce the frequency of dialogue choices. That was their method of involving Shepard as the character of focus in a cinematic and it absolutely sucked. The point is Andromeda continued that overall style, made it even worse and the franchise needs to look at what ME2 did and realize it was better for meeting the player halfway with roleplaying and slick cinematics
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2019 21:39:36 GMT
I personally like ME3's intro over ME2's overall. You... You like the desk-dodging and the awkward attempts at shaky cam and walking through a crowd to the way Shepard dies in ME2? Also, while I admit the actual cause and moment of death was weakly directed, the good stuff happens from the start you enter the interior of the ship and to when the player enters the CIC to see the blown off hull and antigravity objects in beautiful lighting and bits of screen shaking. The intro to ME3 has so much forced and even nonsensical emotion, from the out of character expository delivery between Shepard and Anderson, informing each other what each other knows to the way they awkwardly dodge oncoming people and the way there's a triple of people announcing names when you bunch into Ash/Kaidan... And the nonsensical trial which ends on a giant curved desk rotating in one piece and Shepard dodging it - I mean... That is terrible-ass choreography lol. Even Shepard's knockback into the bench and rolling off was a strange choice of action. I always found it cringey. I feel ME2 and 3 are really similar overall in choreography and style but they often force it more and for longer stretches in 3 which highlights its mediocrity more. The crux of it all is again that in order to achieve such "seamless, continuous chorepgraphy" as "an improvement over ME2" BioWare had to reduce the frequency of dialogue choices. That was their method of involving Shepard as the character of focus in a cinematic and it absolutely sucked. The point is Andromeda continued that overall style, made it even worse and the franchise needs to look at what ME2 did and realize it was better for meeting the player halfway with roleplaying and slick cinematics Let's see - floating objects yet hanging cables... yep, that's logical (sarcasm). Shepard having to pull/lift Joker out of his seat (he should have just essentially floated out of it). Shepard being pulled by gravity towards the planet, yet floating objects are not. As I mentioned, hit points on the ship by the Collector ship do not coincide with the damage shown. Other escape pods are activated with everyone able to be on board, yet Shepard has to move away from the door of the pod to activate it and send Joker off (after a blast not coming from the pod in front of Shepard blows him/her back away from the door). Yep, all that's logical (sarcasm). Then there's the whole purpose of that intro... to evoke an OMG from the player based on... they wouldn't kill the PC this early in the game, would they? It amounts to a cheap theatrical trick to evoke an emotion (a plea on the player's pathos)... and that cheapens the entire intro to ME2. Sorry, it was just a bit much for me to suspend my disbelief. I'll take ME3's "forced" emotion over watching a child get blown to bits by the enemy over ME2's "OMG, is Shepard dead... joking?" intro of ME2 any day of the week.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jul 20, 2019 6:40:00 GMT
A lot of that is some seriously nitpicky "it's a video game" kind of critique lol. The least they could've done in 3's intro was have Shepard blown against the wall with some debris he luckily gets out of instead of a giant spinning desk in an almost empty room.
Also, he wasn't gravitationally pulled towards the planet from space lol, he was flung in that direction from an explosion and proceeded to reach its stratosphere.
Also, "Is Shepard dead?" Is a valid opening. We're not discussing the story to that degree though, and in terms of setting up a story and choreographing a moment nothing is wrong with it except that they decided to instantly revive him which is even impossible. Not a fault of the animation team. A fault of the writers unless they forgot to say "make sure he dies without getting burned up in the atmosphere"
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2019 11:07:54 GMT
A lot of that is some seriously nitpicky "it's a video game" kind of critique lol. The least they could've done in 3's intro was have Shepard blown against the wall with some debris he luckily gets out of instead of a giant spinning desk in an almost empty room. Also, he wasn't gravitationally pulled towards the planet from space lol, he was flung in that direction from an explosion and proceeded to reach its stratosphere. Also, "Is Shepard dead?" Is a valid opening. We're not discussing the story to that degree though, and in terms of setting up a story and choreographing a moment nothing is wrong with it except that they decided to instantly revive him which is even impossible. Not a fault of the animation team. A fault of the writers unless they forgot to say "make sure he dies without getting burned up in the atmosphere" ... and I think your criticisms of ME3's intro includes "some seriously nitpicky" stuff as well... how Shepard moves through a crowd at the start of ME3 is not near as badly choreographed as the inconsistent existence of gravity onboard the SR2 at the start of ME2, but you're too busy being impressed by "floating objects" to notice it. If Shepard is blasted to the planet from outside that planet's gravitational range, how on earth did he survive reentry into that planet's atmosphere (which is described in the Wiki as being thick and consisting of methane and ammonia)? He/she should have been completely vaporized long before ever reaching the ground. A smarter choice would have sent him/her into an orbit of the planet... and then they wouldn't have to have endured the criticisms about finding the helmet on the surface also in ME2 (which is IMO a seriously nitpicky criticism of that little quest that I've seen uttered here on BSN as well).
I am entitled to my preferences about what I find believable and don't. IMO, the intro to ME2 is not believable... from the start of the sending the SR1 out to find geth (effectively demoting the spectre who had just saved the Citadel) to a collector ship being a totally new threat from left field that no one knew existed prior to that moment (how did the Reapers find out about Shepard to target him/her so specifically when the premise of ME1 was that Sovereign's communications with the Reapers had been cut off throughout that entire game0 to Shepard dying and then being brought back to life (what does that really contribute to the story other than giving them the ability to quip about Shepard "getting better" later on). It's a cheap trick "game" type of opening... and I'm lol'ing at how suddenly you've become so overtly defensive of it.
ETA: Since you seem to be moving focus towards emotions being "forced" onto the player character. ME2 is guilty of that as well. They give you a choice whether or not to be gruff with Joker in the intro, but regardless of that choice or of any opinions expressed in ME1 about Joker, Shepard is always just so happy to see him before the ship is unveiled and the autodialogue that follows is basically a "best-bro" type conversation. I personally think it's more believable for even a hardened soldier to show a little sadness at watching two shuttles full of people being blown to bits than it is for a Shepard who said he'd save Joker's "crippled ass" to be all warm and fuzzy and not at all suspicious about him being there with Cerberus.
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Post by burningcherry on Jul 20, 2019 11:12:21 GMT
Shepard's state did not satisfy the in-universe definition of death btw.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2019 11:16:28 GMT
Shepard's state did not satisfy the in-universe definition of death btw. Does that actually matter? He/she should have been vaporized... no body to recover, period. There are many more plausible ways that Shepard could have wound up allied with Cerberus. For example, he/she could have made it into the pod with Joker and that pod getting ejected in such a way that it landed in an unknown location on the planet... and Cerberus simply beat the Alliance to the crash site and recovered both of them before the Alliance got there. Shepard could have still been in a 2-year coma, etc.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: ShinobiKillfist
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ahglock
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Jul 20, 2019 15:59:10 GMT
Shepard's state did not satisfy the in-universe definition of death btw. Does that actually matter? He/she should have been vaporized... no body to recover, period. There are many more plausible ways that Shepard could have wound up allied with Cerberus. For example, he/she could have made it into the pod with Joker and that pod getting ejected in such a way that it landed in an unknown location on the planet... and Cerberus simply beat the Alliance to the crash site and recovered both of them before the Alliance got there. Shepard could have still been in a 2-year coma, etc. I think the whole death thing was stupid. But there really is no way to know what state his body would be in when falling through a unknown atmosphere with sci fi armor and shields designed to deflect rail gun shots.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2019 17:24:01 GMT
Does that actually matter? He/she should have been vaporized... no body to recover, period. There are many more plausible ways that Shepard could have wound up allied with Cerberus. For example, he/she could have made it into the pod with Joker and that pod getting ejected in such a way that it landed in an unknown location on the planet... and Cerberus simply beat the Alliance to the crash site and recovered both of them before the Alliance got there. Shepard could have still been in a 2-year coma, etc. I think the whole death thing was stupid. But there really is no way to know what state his body would be in when falling through a unknown atmosphere with sci fi armor and shields designed to deflect rail gun shots. If incendiary ammo burns through it, atmospheric entry (in any sort of atmosphere) would disintegrate it. Shepard's armor is not one of a kind in the galaxy and you watch a gazillion enemies go down in the same basic stuff throughout the game. It's more logical to believe it would fail before Shepard hit the planet than not. The more logical scenario is that Shepard is not thrust towards the planet at sufficient speed and steep enough entry angle that he/she basically skips off the atmosphere and drifts off into space or enters into an orbit of the planet.
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alanc9
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 20, 2019 19:09:11 GMT
Akthugh that's only true if the ship was at something like orbital velocity. If Normandy's final motion relative to Alchera was close to zero, Shepard wouldn't have had heating problems.
VFX contradicts this, but that's not exactly reliable in this series.
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