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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jul 20, 2019 19:20:42 GMT
nconsistent existence of gravity onboard the SR2 at the start of ME2, but you're too busy being impressed by "floating objects" to notice it. I noticed it but you can enjoy some artistic liberties if the overall impression given is great, and the thing to see is this: "Shit the SR1 is fucked!" "Nobody's left." "The chairs are floating." "The lighting really sets the tone." "Oh right, I guess that's Joker over there" And YES, I noticed there's a dumb energy barrier there which was never established and he's weird a goofy-ass helmet to handwave the skimpy stuff. But I didn't hate any of this because the motivation to make the scene overall was great. ME3 tries so hard with emotion and "acting" that it sticks out like a sore thumb how video-gamey it is, which is the opposite of its motivation, it's obnoxious to me.
I would probably meet you halfway and agree that the desk-dodging and the bench-rolling is on the same level of awkward and "wtf is this choreography??" as when Shepard rescues Joker and subsequently gets flung out. But I was more thinking of how slick the initial escape from the lower deck to the upper deck felt, both in the cutscene with stuff exploding and people tripping, the pacing of it all, verus how the walk to the trial and subsequently the trial felt where you could say the moment of the Reaper strike is equal to the moment of Shepard losing gravity.
I just thought every waking moment of the opening to 3 was awkwardly shot, acted and paced. The animation was good, the choreography was shit. The writing sure didn't help.
Also, there's no autodialogue in 2's intro. There's just a funky delay between choosing the dialogue before it's said but it does vary depending on whether you're an ass or neutrally tell Joker/Ashley to do their thing. Meanwhile I had to sit through I think 10 lines of autodialogue from Shepard in 3's opening before you get to choose whether you think the Reapers are here or whether you think we haven't prepared enough if the Reapers are here.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jul 20, 2019 19:25:52 GMT
Shepard's state did not satisfy the in-universe definition of death btw. They also could not commit to it. Some places in ME2 and especially throughout ME3 you'll hear characters saying "You almost died" or "When Shepard died" like, there's just no agreement between the writers there. Pure reversion to ME1's style is not the answer though because ME3 also has some of the best "choreographed" scenes in the franchise with logos and pathos working together better than they had in the previous games. WHAT, I don't want a "Pure reversion" to ME1 lol. I'm mostly saying ME2 but obviously there's graphical or playable improvements to the two more recent games we could have. The level of emotion and how they've learned to write believable "bro" dialogue is also okay. But if it keeps being mostly only brolicious writing and "FEELS" but less hard-sci fi justifications or less contemplative ideas that don't only seem like a writer just discovered science fiction for their first time, I would appreciate it a lot.
What I'm mostly referring to with ME2's general level of pacing, cinematography and writing quality is how I felt there was a consistency to the amount of choices matched with a pretty high bar for gestures, cinematic blocking and emotional cinematic storytelling plus good screenwriting, while ME1 is definitely too dry, ME3 is too often too pathos at the expense of rational dimension and MEA is just a sorry mess of all the bad lessons BioWare has deluded themselves into believing.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 20, 2019 20:31:30 GMT
A mass effect field emergency "bulkhead" isn't a lore problem, since that's how we see the Citadel docks holding the air in.
Might be a Codex problem, though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2019 20:41:35 GMT
A mass effect field emergency "bulkhead" isn't a lore problem, since that's how we see the Citadel docks holding the air in. The bulkhead, however, has nothing to do with artificial gravity being generated onboard the ship. I wasn't talking talking about the atmosphere, just the gravity... which comes and goes from scene to scene and, indeed, appears even within the area of the floating objects. In ME1, when you transition from the inside to the outside of the elevator, you would still need mag boots to keep you from falling... not to keep you from floating. Although it's never really clear why there also appears to be no air outside the elevator (which is still within the arms of the Citadel itself). The geth could have built in "boots" to keep them attached to the side of the tower, but iIt's also never really clear why the Krogan don't appear to be wearing any mag boots.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 20, 2019 21:14:19 GMT
I don't think we have enough data on how shipboard gravity generation works to make a fuss over this. If each compartment has its own generator, and some are damaged while others are not.....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2019 21:20:47 GMT
nconsistent existence of gravity onboard the SR2 at the start of ME2, but you're too busy being impressed by "floating objects" to notice it. I noticed it but you can enjoy some artistic liberties if the overall impression given is great, and the thing to see is this: "Shit the SR1 is fucked!" "Nobody's left." "The chairs are floating." "The lighting really sets the tone." "Oh right, I guess that's Joker over there" And YES, I noticed there's a dumb energy barrier there which was never established and he's weird a goofy-ass helmet to handwave the skimpy stuff. But I didn't hate any of this because the motivation to make the scene overall was great. ME3 tries so hard with emotion and "acting" that it sticks out like a sore thumb how video-gamey it is, which is the opposite of its motivation, it's obnoxious to me.
I would probably meet you halfway and agree that the desk-dodging and the bench-rolling is on the same level of awkward and "wtf is this choreography??" as when Shepard rescues Joker and subsequently gets flung out. But I was more thinking of how slick the initial escape from the lower deck to the upper deck felt, both in the cutscene with stuff exploding and people tripping, the pacing of it all, verus how the walk to the trial and subsequently the trial felt where you could say the moment of the Reaper strike is equal to the moment of Shepard losing gravity.
I just thought every waking moment of the opening to 3 was awkwardly shot, acted and paced. The animation was good, the choreography was shit. The writing sure didn't help.
Also, there's no autodialogue in 2's intro. There's just a funky delay between choosing the dialogue before it's said but it does vary depending on whether you're an ass or neutrally tell Joker/Ashley to do their thing. Meanwhile I had to sit through I think 10 lines of autodialogue from Shepard in 3's opening before you get to choose whether you think the Reapers are here or whether you think we haven't prepared enough if the Reapers are here.
OK, so we meet halfway... and all I really said was that I prefer ME3's into to ME2's. ME3's is more believable to me than ME2's. You find the emotiveness of ME2's more to your liking than ME3's. The principle we're discussing is that basically logos and pathos have to work together to create appropriate tension in a scene. Each intro fails to establish that ideal. We're still waiting for a truly great intro, since ME1 really wasn't it either. It was more like ME:A's with an opening dialogue/monologue (the conversation between Hackett and Anderson in ME1 and Alec Ryder's monologue in ME:A). Here, I give the best intro to Alec Ryder's monologue.
ME1 and ME:A then go into a second sort of intro after the game time appears. They following the same sort of the pattern. ME1 then had the conversations with Joker, Kaidan, Pressly, etc. and ME:A had the conversation with the Doc. ME1 then showed us a video of what was happening on the planet before we leap out of Normandyt; whereas, ME:A when the ME2 route by messing with the gravity (and note the pun here). The messing with the gravity of the situation didn't work so well, but up to this point, at least it's believable. ME1's method was less dramatic, but better overall. ME:A goes a step further with the fall from the shuttle, which also wasn't a great move... why, because, like ME2's intro, it's not really believable. Same problems... just one you're willing tol overlook for ME2, but not for ME:A. IMO, ME:A's into would have been better served if the tutorial had of occurred totally onboard the Hyperion and focused on an effort their to free it from the scourage. The discovery that Habitat 7 was a bust could have come in a second mission, where they could have allowed the player to more freely explore that planet.
I didn't suggest that ME2's into2 had autodialogue... just that the selection had no relevance in that there was no change available in the autodialogue that comes later when Joker is revealed to Shepard. Likewise, there is no further mention about when Shepard is gruff to his/her former LI or not. It's a useless bit of choice that, IMO, disrupts the pacing. If they had at least mentioned it and/or, better, had it make a difference later on in the game, it would have been better.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2019 21:22:18 GMT
I don't think we have enough data on how shipboard gravity generation works to make a fuss over this. If each compartment has its own generator, and some are damaged while others are not..... I'm not the one "making a fuss." It's illustrating a problem... but suddenly you and others have gotten completely defensive because, heaven forbid, I'm criticizing ME2.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jul 21, 2019 10:03:41 GMT
You are missing that while it's nice to have a bombastic opening it isn't the quintessential recipe for a good one.
I love ME1's intro. I consider it close to perfect. It has everything in it that evokes "MASS EFFECT" to me. MEA came closest to repeating that kind of start but marred it with terrible cliches and *GASP* emotiveness.
It's cool to have an inciting incident primed from the first lines of dialogue, but I consider it ballsy to be able to start an opening by just music, slow character introduction and pure dialogue that establishes time, place and characterization.
Good pacing is to be able to contrast the loud moments with quiet ones. Eden Prime isn't really extraordinarily put together for its time but it did have tension and is a pretty good contrast to the opening being established with just talking heads.
Each Mass Effect also set out on different missions.
ME1 is Star Trek more than anything. TNG as well. ME2 has a lot of old Star Wars to it and darker moments reminded me of Alien and Bladerunner. ME3 is definitely Battlestar Galactica reboot 2004 MEA is kind of a mix of those but with some modern TV flair put in, mostly The Expanse I think.
MEA felt the least recognizably "Mass Effect" to me. ME3 felt alienating as well but the autodialogue weighs more there than the tone and style, but that did affect my impression a lot too with its muted colors, space-salvage style ships and attempts at one-take shaky cams. I feel that whenever you'd want to try and create the "perfect Mass Effect" by combining all 3 of the trilogy you're mishing too disparate stylings together and you probably won't find a good union unless you pick the most Mass Effect of those 3 and make that more emphasized. Hence, if you pick from ME3 or MEA I'll find it "less Mass Effect" right down to the amped up mobility of combat.
At this point even combat feels like a far departure from the squad-focused "Space Marines" approach the first game had... Very "alien 2" inspired imo. Now you're just a one-man army facing kilometer tall Transformers worms and winning.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 21, 2019 13:54:15 GMT
But that just proves that your taxonomy fails to establish a criterion for being a good ME game. The ME games don't have a consistent SF style, so there's no way for any of them to be more ME than another.
One can still have a personal taste, of course. Or not; I recognize the difference between the styles of the four games, but I'm wholly indifferent to the style a game uses as long as it fits that game's story. When the story is trying to stave off extermination by a fleet of killer robots, nuBSG isn't a bad fit, for instance.
(While I liked ME:A fine, if someone wants to make a case that game had a style/story mismatch-- well, that's not a hill I'm prepared to die on.)
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jul 21, 2019 20:42:57 GMT
No, I can't claim there is a definitive Mass Effect and I hold the key to that lol. It's not objective because we have the first two games setting a certain tone and style and then playing around slightly towards other styles from area to area and gameplay styles starting to shift in ME2, but we also have Mass Effect 3 and MEA and while ME3 carries over some trends of ME2's flavor and MEA carries over some of ME3's flavor, overall I personally always felt a certain distinction between ME1/2 and ME3/MEA.
1 and 2 is a lot about pure conversation, and "trek". 3 and MEA was more about "ACTION" and "EMOTION".
Another reason I like to knock games after 2 is that I find the writing started to lack motivation. Not to say the writers were unmotivated to write but writing lacks motivation behind it at times. Sure there's flubs in 1 and 2 and tonal inconsistencies sometimes, and ME2 has a pretty shallow plot, but often times characters will say stuff like "It would be...... Catastrophic, if we did this!" stuff where it comes across that "the writer really wanted to emphasize the weight behind these words~!" but you can't discern what the real meaning of the quote is.
I think obvious examples is Liara's final gift, the moment that's like "LOOK, IT'S NOTHING!". It felt like the writers ran out of ideas (real answer: Drew K and L'Etoile's lack of involvement is showing, and 5 of the writers didn't write prior to ME2's DLC) and would sort of "hide" their lack of intention in their lines by making characters say stuff that just sounds important but doesn't really mean much if you think about it. "We fight or we die" is another good example. It's just so full of empty platitudes of "emotion" and I suppose to some people that holds real value if you're very fond of platitudes yourself or like to be very emotional without using the other side of your brain.
I just find that from a writing POV there's that gap and the rest of the direction follows suit, with amped up action and attempts at choreographed set-pieces. A lot of those set-pieces in 3 and MEA fall apart to anyone who's played Uncharted or any games that set out to be that rail-roaded set-piece blockbuster experience whereas Mass Effect used to be about taking the old-school RPG and setting it into a more AAA context, but once they started hamstringing and railroading the experience they trade off what makes Mass Effect stand out. That happened gradually but for me the record broke once it went into "Uncharted"-land.
The last-stand on Earth where the timer is really just your bullet-count, and you easily break the intention of the sequence by forgetting to empty your Assault Rifle. The forced setup on Tuchanka where the bridge collapses and it's like "Ooh it's not a REAL cutscene!" but it really is just a masked cutscene, and BioWare just indulged a lot in very narrow hamstrung moments of "action" that end up not impressing you because you can tell how fake it is. It makes the game more linear than it should be and with a loss in dialogue options on top of that, plus a loss of exploration, and it all comes back to that desire to make it "epic" and "emotional", it falls flat on me.
There's some sequences that worked well but even those that did, the escape on the Geth Dreadnaught, the autoturret on Mars, the Beam run etc. you can tell it's all "set up" around the player - there is no choice to make and you can even break the sequence by standing still in many of those. It just goes directly against the strength that ME1 and ME2 established and you can't really have both. An exciting escape sequence might be okay, but only if it's engulfed in moments of choice and exploration like those that ME1 and ME2 are full of, and at best they used interrupts to add some agency to those setpieces in ME3, like in the Citadel Coup.
MEA I liked for its increase in exploration but like Dragon Age Inquisition it felt like two disperate experiences packed in one. The "Jack of all trades master of none" phenomenon. On one hand you had the main quest and loyalty missions. Those are basically like ME3. Linear corridor shooter levels with minor exploration opportunities along the path and cinematic roleplaying here and there. The rest was an Ubi-box game and it was decent. The amazing thing about Mass Effect 1 and Witcher 3 to me is the way that even a side-mission could end up feeling like it was to the same quality as a main quest. The amount of cinematic conversations and moments of confrontation found in ME1's side-missions was engrossing enough that I enjoyed the side-content as much if not more than the main story, and ME2 capitalized on that idea by making the whole main quest feel like a series of smaller stories that mixed exploration, combat and conversation.
It's that flow really, exploration, combat and conversation - it has to be interwoven in its design, you can't seperate it too much or you get ME3 or Andromeda, and that's why I put those below ME1 or ME2. As much as I like certain improvements whether it was companions being more individual, moving around the ship or slicker graphics and boomier sound quality, I feel a lot of that desire to make it "emotional" tie an anchor around the two most recent Mass Effects and BioWare lost their concept of which things made the first two games so revered by so many.
But alas, I'm on BSN and you only get all the people who stuck around who apologize the crap out of every bad moment in the franchise or something. Too often you see Mass Effect 2 being heralded as the best in the consensus and even a lot of love for ME1. ME3 was popular outside of its ending too, Andromeda was pop-mocked because of technical faults and shoddy writing, but IMO the gap began right after ME2 and it's time to move in the other direction again, or watch Mass Effect truly kill itself.
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Post by cloud9 on Jul 22, 2019 5:22:08 GMT
There is no possible way they could continue the story in the milky way... It would have to continue in Andromeda which is likely what they will never do considering everyone hated that game. Andromeda is shitty. I mean, let's keep it real.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jul 22, 2019 7:18:13 GMT
Jade Empire would have doomed Mass Effect and Dragon Age From reports on that, it very nearly did, which is why the doctors looked to sell Bioware to a big publisher. However, my point is that if Bioware took seven years to come up with Anthem, which has proven to be, uh, interesting? As an investment. The point is: does EA trust in Bioware enough to develop another IP, in another 7 years, to produce another Anthem? They were not sold they were BOUGHT. They were aquired by a holding corp which John Riccitello had a major investment in which he used to go back to EA with in order to aquire BioWare for EA in their plan to create an RPG divison for EA, thusly appointing Greg and Ray to the keyholders to all of EA's RPGs. Similarly they appointed the CEO of Dice, Patrick Söderlund to Head of Worldwide because Battlefield was such a block buster. It's all part of the EA Assimilation baby.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jul 22, 2019 7:19:42 GMT
Andromeda is shitty. I mean, let's keep it real. I actually hate it less than ME3. It ruined less and constructed more to the fiction.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 22, 2019 12:00:33 GMT
They were not sold they were BOUGHT I fail to see the distinction. If something isn't for sale, it can't be bought. Bioware, at the time, were actively looking for buyers, in order to avoid bankruptcy, so that, effectively, puts the company up for sale. There were rumours, after their partnerships with Microsoft, that they would be the ones to have bought them, but from what I recall, Bioware weren't particularly fond of their partnerships, so they took their pea elsewhere, or Riccitello cut them a better deal, at the time, that allowed the doctors a better grip on their company, than the Microsoft offer did. As evident, though, that didn't last for long, or the power play that ensued with the reception of games like ToR, DA2 and ME3 drove the doctors out of EA. I actually hate it less than ME3. It ruined less and constructed more to the fiction. I agree with that. ME:A was far from a perfect game, but at least it didn't burn the bridges that ME3 did.
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Post by burningcherry on Jul 22, 2019 17:52:02 GMT
ME3 wasn't meant to leave anything to continue after, so to start with. But it was still possible because everything horrible about the ending was physically separated from the rest of the game (development process artifact reportedly) and all to do to continue in the MW was to cancel the last ten minutes of the previous game and come up with a sane conclusion instead.
ME3 should have done it itself and delay the Reaper invasion.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 22, 2019 17:57:07 GMT
ME3 wasn't meant to leave anything to continue after, so to start with. That is just bad planning, then. They made an entire universe, that they could tell any kind of story they wanted to, in it, only to burn it down after three games. It's like they have no respect for their own work. all to do to continue in the MW was to cancel the last ten minutes of the previous game and come up with a sane conclusion instead. That's what I'd normally be asking for, but I also want to respect the people here who liked the endings, as well, regardless of my personal feelings toward them. ME3 should have done it itself and delay the Reaper invasion. I've been saying that for the longest time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2019 18:04:31 GMT
ME3 should have done it itself and delay the Reaper invasion.
You already delayed the Reaper invasion by 6 months if you send that asteroid to destroy a mass relay in Arrival. Otherwise, the Reapers would have been there in 2 days after ME2 ended, not 6 months.
Regardless of whether you play Arrival or not, they give you 6 months to prepare.
And it's kind of hard to prepare for something like that when no one believes the Reapers even exist, aside from you and a few of your friends. They only believed the threat was real when it smacked them in the face, and they could see the Reapers for themselves. By then, it was too late.
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Post by Ghostknife72 on Jul 22, 2019 19:44:26 GMT
Is it too hard to get my planet scanning back?
Do you know how much fun it was to get EDI to say "Probing Uranus"?!?
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Post by themikefest on Jul 22, 2019 20:14:19 GMT
ME3 wasn't meant to leave anything to continue after, so to start with. But it was still possible because everything horrible about the ending was physically separated from the rest of the game (development process artifact reportedly) and all to do to continue in the MW was to cancel the last ten minutes of the previous game and come up with a sane conclusion instead. It would not have been hard for a sequel to ME3. Halfway through the game, the player learns the crucible has enough energy to destroy the reapers. That's the ending. As soon as the arms of the Citadel are fully opened, the crucible fires the red wave of destroy. After that, Shepard is seen talking to Hackett and the council mentioning that even though the reapers are destroyed, he/she did not encounter this intelligence that Leviathan spoke of. That could have been the story for ta sequel. Track down this intelligence, and destroy it. How long would you have delayed the invasion? Would that extra time be enough to convince the council to do something? Lets say they do. What would they do against the reapers? No one knows the reaper numbers. Or just go with finding the plans to the device, build it, then use it before the reapers enter the galaxy. If that is done, what guarantee that the red wave would reach the reapers outside of the galaxy?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2019 20:18:35 GMT
Is it too hard to get my planet scanning back? Do you know how much fun it was to get EDI to say "Probing Uranus"?!? Ghost … dude!
Long time no here … or hear.
So … howya doin?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2019 20:37:22 GMT
That could have been the story for ta sequel. Track down this intelligence, and destroy it. The intelligence gets destroyed along with the Reapers when you fire the Crucible. Did you notice the hologram disappears as soon as you shoot the tube?
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Post by themikefest on Jul 22, 2019 20:50:17 GMT
That could have been the story for ta sequel. Track down this intelligence, and destroy it. The intelligence gets destroyed along with the Reapers when you fire the Crucible. Did you notice the hologram disappears as soon as you shoot the tube? Yet it doesn't happen in the other endings? Read what I posted. I said, as soon as the arms of the Citadel are fully opened, the crucible fires the red wave. That means, Shepard never encountered the hologram.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2019 21:00:44 GMT
The intelligence gets destroyed along with the Reapers when you fire the Crucible. Did you notice the hologram disappears as soon as you shoot the tube? Yet it doesn't happen in the other endings? Read what I posted. I said, as soon as the arms of the Citadel are fully opened, the crucible fires the red wave. That means, Shepard never encountered the hologram. That's not how the Crucible is supposed to work. You're supposed to shoot the tube to activate it.
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1227
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Phantom
2,652
August 2016
deathscepter
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Phantom on Jul 22, 2019 21:45:11 GMT
I don't know which is sillier, space magic or space ninjas. Space magic does include ranging from shooting tubes to activate a machine to do something without breaking it to Cyber Nercomancy to Space elements giving people magic. Or Space ninjas like Kai Leng, Thane, Kasumi Goto, Cerberus Phantoms, N7 Slayers and N7 Shadows.
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Link"Guess"ski
3,882
August 2016
linkenski
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Linkenski
asblinkenski
Linkenski
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jul 22, 2019 22:43:48 GMT
ME3 should have done it itself and delay the Reaper invasion. Here's literally what I anticipated before ME3 shipped and before the marketing campaign started suggesting some type of "Earth" campaign: Game's about the first batch of Reapers arriving midway into the campaign and then Shepard's plot is a struggle against time to find the instruments that can safeguard our cycle for good, and you would either do it with Illusive Man's help or the council's help based on whether you supported either group or appointed Anderson vs Udina, and the last half of the game would be about assembling the biggest fleet yet involving our ME2 crewmates and ME1 crewmates as beacons for all races to kick Harbinger's butt and his first battallion and the game would end with sort of a "Reapers still exist, but we know them well now, they're in retreat of their original strategy" and then maybe sequels created a decade later would try to make it all about some Reaper war. The "Full scale galactic war" angle on 3... I'll admit they depicted it quite well at times but as far as I was concerned "who the hell even asked for that." lol
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