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Post by opuspace on Apr 15, 2019 2:18:01 GMT
You've stopped coming up with arguments and are just moralizing now, which isn't either useful or interesting. The conversation has run its course. Those are my arguments because your argument was, that the system "more-or-less functioned" – and the system was built on this lie. Again: this isn't safe, only unjust. Calms the "common" people? Oh, I don't doubt. But why we should calm them to a false sense of a security? Or calm them there's no problem, because they don't see the problem? Just because it comfortable? Yes, I moralizing, because moral is the part of life – an important part. You can't ignore it for, just because of it unpleasant, or easier to ignore – to calm the people's conscience, or to avoid the conflicts? It's wrong. Or just to wait for a better timing? And when that better timing, a better solution come? As I said, if we just wait for it, then never. The whole question about the moral. I'm wondering what's considered too much of an overhaul that's untested vs building upon what works. If left to their devices, the mages will use the structure they grew up with and create it under their control with a different purpose. Cassandra more or less leaves that decision to them while still maintaining the Templars as a backup measure. Vivienne is the only one who keeps the system exactly as it is but with her in charge. Leliana and Cassandra are both controversial for giving more control to the mages, something that's never been tested in Southern Thedas. Vivienne herself is an untested variable. Yet they are building upon parts of the system from before. I guess what I'm saying is that it seems like no matter what changes are implemented, people are still using pieces of the old foundation because they don't have any better examples to use. But at the same time, no matter who is Divine, we're still in uncharted territory with the new changes.
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Post by melbella on Apr 15, 2019 2:18:56 GMT
But none of those things are a given, and just turning all the Circle mages in Thedas over to an underground organization of criminals without screening them or their plans or discussing checks and balances would be insane. Who decides though? Who's doing the screening and the testing? What makes them a better choice than anyone else? Nice dig at the Collective, btw, calling them 'criminals' when their only 'crime' is that they are mages operating outside the Chantry. They aren't running amok, killing people or otherwise causing problems. As for Cass, considering she tells Dorian point-blank she'd stuff him in a little mage prison if she had the power, I'm not so sure she's about fair treatment of mages.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 15, 2019 3:01:50 GMT
But none of those things are a given, and just turning all the Circle mages in Thedas over to an underground organization of criminals without screening them or their plans or discussing checks and balances would be insane. Who decides though? Who's doing the screening and the testing? What makes them a better choice than anyone else? Nice dig at the Collective, btw, calling them 'criminals' when their only 'crime' is that they are mages operating outside the Chantry. They aren't running amok, killing people or otherwise causing problems. As for Cass, considering she tells Dorian point-blank she'd stuff him in a little mage prison if she had the power, I'm not so sure she's about fair treatment of mages. In that ideal scenario? Cassandra does. Obviously. She's the one with the authority to do so. Along with whatever advisers or experts she can call on that she deems to have relevant experience. It's not a dig, it's their legal and social status. Being lawless means that you have to live your entire life hiding from authority and trying to fly under the radar. It severely impacts how one's daily life functions, one's values and policies and view of the world, and what sorts of experiences one can have. Giving a loose organization with no collective history except for that existence one of the most delicate and vital societal functions imaginable out of hand would be crazy. As I said, screening and getting a sense of their plans, and the effectiveness of those plans, for such an undertaking would be in order before committing anybody to their care. Two people who want to adopt a child in real life are screened and brought in for a serious talk about how they imagine it's going to work before anything like it will be allowed. Mage children have the potential to tear reality apart. I really don't see what's so crazy about not turning their training over en masse to just whoever wants to try their hand at it. And how exactly do you know that members of the Mage Collective aren't turning into abominations at a much higher rate than circle mages? They're probably not even organized enough to know themselves if that's the case. One would just fall off the grid one day and not come back, and the others would have no idea if they'd smelled templars and gone underground, been captured or summarily killed, or just left the area for good and not told anyone so as not to leave a trail. No idea what piece of dialogue you're referring to. If you have a quote and the context in which it's said I wouldn't mind trying to unpack it with you, see if it's as incriminating as you make it sound.
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Post by melbella on Apr 15, 2019 3:13:00 GMT
No idea what piece of dialogue you're referring to. If you have a quote and the context in which it's said I wouldn't mind trying to unpack it with you, see if it's as incriminating as you make it sound. It's a banter between Dorian and Cassandra. I'm too lazy to find a link for it but I'm sure there are many out there.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 15, 2019 3:34:48 GMT
It's a banter between Dorian and Cassandra. I'm too lazy to find a link for it but I'm sure there are many out there. I suppose you mean this, then: Dorian: "If you were still a Seeker, would you drag me to one of your Circles?" Cassandra: "I'm not still a Seeker." Dorian: "But you'd do it even though I'm incredibly charming?" Cassandra: "Yes. I would absolutely drag you there. Without question." I don't see much of a problem. Cassandra admits that if hunting down mages was still her job and there were still Circles to drag them back to, she wouldn't have thought twice about dragging Dorian in particular into one. Which isn't a huge surprise, as she doesn't trust him all that much even now when they're fighting side by side and may have been for months. It's not a threat or an insult, none of their other banter indicates any real animosity aside from that they clearly don't know how to talk to each other. She isn't being antagonistic about it, just stating the fact of what would have happened if the world still looked like that. If anything, she may be exaggerating her eagerness to punish him for the "even though I'm incredibly charming" bit, though it's hard to say that without hearing the intonation.
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Post by xerrai on Apr 15, 2019 4:05:57 GMT
But none of those things are a given, and just turning all the Circle mages in Thedas over to an underground organization of criminals without screening them or their plans or discussing checks and balances would be insane. [...] Nice dig at the Collective, btw, calling them 'criminals' when their only 'crime' is that they are mages operating outside the Chantry. They aren't running amok, killing people or otherwise causing problems. [...] Well if you look at some of thier quests you can find a few crimes/shady actions that are not related to thier non-Chantry affiliation. Bribing templars, dealing with altars of questionably safe sources (ex. an altar of sundering associated with a demon), and one quest actually has you collecting scrolls that explicitly detail blood magic rituals. Still, I'll give the Collective some credit. Their quests also deal with investigating rumors of blood magic, investigating prolonged silence of thier members, and even getting rid of dangerous elements (ex. maleficar, false rumors) if they believe it interferes with thier operations/safety of its members. Which is to say nothing of how they have been staying under the Chantry's radar for years, potentially even after being compromised by the Warden (if he/she chose to sell out the collective). They were even in a good enough place come Inquisition to not only study the rifts (a great risk on its own), but get tangible and usable results and potentially send a member to train the Inquisitor. I can't say for certain how effective they are, but given thier ties and scope they seem less like a group that is on the run and more like a cemented syndicate. Which makes sense since part of thier main interest is making a profit and protecting the interests of its members.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 15, 2019 7:37:11 GMT
Cassandra more or less leaves that decision to them while still maintaining the Templars as a backup measure. Where exactly do you get the idea that Cassandra leaves the governance of the mages going forward to the mages? On being made Divine she immediately forms a new Circle of Magi and a new Templar Order. She makes reforms to the way they are run but I see nothing to suggest she allows the mages to govern these Circles independently, particularly considering that Vivienne immediately gets herself elected as Grand Enchanter. It is worth noting that Vivienne re-establishes the loyalist Circles even under Leliana. I assume that Cassandra's reforms might be along the lines of greater accountability for the treatment of mages by Templars and, hopefully, allowing all its members to continue to have contact with the outside world. What struck me about the old Circle was that it was a two-tier system with the children of nobility being treated entirely differently to the children of commoners. The former were mostly sent to Circles near their family home and allowed to maintain contact with their families, so naturally were less likely to suffer abuse as a result, whereas the latter were often sent to a completely different region and never allowed contact with their families again, so just as was the case in the outside world, they were more likely to suffer from those who abused their power over them. I dare say far more commoner mages were made tranquil than those from the nobility. Cassandra tolerates the College of Enchanters, mostly made up of surviving original rebels and/or ex-Inquisition mages and encourages Vivienne to do the same. In fact Vivienne also decides to let them continue to exist even if she is Divine. Thus in every scenario we have two mage factions existing across the south, the loyalist Circle of Magi and the independent College of Enchanters. However, it is clear that even under Leliana, the one that has most power and influence is Vivienne's Circle and it wouldn't surprise me if the writers eventually decided that it was the College which floundered, having no central foundation and little financial backing, once the current members had died. It might have better chance of success in Ferelden because of the previous existence of the Mages Collective, who had some experience of organising a group of individuals with no actual base. I would say that the College of Enchanters would have least degree of success in Orlais because the nobility would prefer their mage children to be trained under the loyalist Circle and thus give that organisation their political and financial support.
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Post by opuspace on Apr 15, 2019 12:29:20 GMT
Cassandra more or less leaves that decision to them while still maintaining the Templars as a backup measure. Where exactly do you get the idea that Cassandra leaves the governance of the mages going forward to the mages? On being made Divine she immediately forms a new Circle of Magi and a new Templar Order. She makes reforms to the way they are run but I see nothing to suggest she allows the mages to govern these Circles independently, particularly considering that Vivienne immediately gets herself elected as Grand Enchanter. Ah, I see it. I took the part where mages who didn't want to rejoin the Circle and form the College declined her invitation to rejoin the Circle. I interpreted that as her respecting their wishes but it's possible she may have attempted to force them back in. In that instance, I shouldn't be surprised. She's consistently had moments of turning a blind eye to the Seekers and the Templars unintentionally so this would not be out of character for her. I'm afraid Cassandra's solution runs the same risk as Vivienne's: backsliding into the same mistakes over time. I've been thinking more about that conversation with Cassandra in Haven regarding the mages and am wondering if she's suggested what she thinks what the reforms should be are why I drew that conclusion.
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Post by Iddy on Apr 15, 2019 17:17:49 GMT
Any chance we can go back to discussing whether the moral decay of organizations is inevitable? I'm not sure about the testing bit as far new organizations go. By all means get them tested, but surely we aren't expecting these organizations to already be tested by the time we start looking at them as alternatives? One of the downsides the Chantry being extremely 'Circle/Templar Order only' is that no other organization even had the opportunity to be tested in weather the organization was enough to manage the mages on thier own. Any that tried were simply labeled illegal on principal (ex. the Mages' Collective) and had to either operate covertly or shut down completely. Besides it seems like an issue that will resolve itself if the system is put into place long enough. Eventually the organization/system of choice will experience problems. It's just bound to happen. How they respond/prepare for it will be enough 'testing' for me. But it just seems unreasonable to me to already expect a new organization to be 'tested and reliable' when there was little to no opportunity for that to be established beforehand. I'm just talking about their ideas and methods for containing rebellious or malevolent mages having been tested out on a smaller scale and proven actually effective before the Chantry rolls the Circles back and gives the reins away entirely. My problem with the Mage Collective, on the face of them, is that they're a very informal organization with few apparent rules and very limited coordination. Part of the reason for that is that the Chantry up to recently would eradicate them out of hand if they stepped out into the open, obviously, as I also said earlier, but the fact still remains. If Cassandra as Divine extended them an olive branch, and they proved to not only have sensible and practical and benevolent ideas for how to make Circles work humanely, but also the dedication and discipline to stick to them as a group when given such an important and dangerous responsibility as training other mages en masse control and responsibility, then giving them funding and locales and gradually giving young mages over to their care would obviously be ideal. But none of those things are a given, and just turning all the Circle mages in Thedas over to an underground organization of criminals without screening them or their plans or discussing checks and balances would be insane. Again, this is why Cassandra is my pick. Unlike Vivienne she actually might give such alternatives a chance if they look promising, and unlike Leliana she wouldn't immediately throw the old system away on the assumption that literally anything else would be better. You make a really good case. Sadly, my choices can't lead to anything but Divine Leliana and I don't want my Inquisitor to be the type who abuses the own power (supporting Divine candidate)
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 15, 2019 18:06:03 GMT
Any chance we can go back to discussing whether the moral decay of organizations is inevitable? Well being something of an idealist myself, I would say that if an organisation starts off in the right way and doesn't become complaisant, then it is possible for it to continue without becoming corrupt. There needs to be a system of checks and balances, together with a degree of collective responsibility for its actions. Otherwise it is all too easy to blame shortcomings on one or two bad individuals instead of realising it is something inherent to the structure that is at fault. For example, take the Circles. The original idea seemed to have been to give security to both the mundane population from rogue mages and the mages from fanatical mobs in the outside world. Mages had been thought safe enough to be allowed among the community provided they stuck to simple, inoffensive magic. However, this limited magical experimentation and the possibility of mages improving their skills in order that they could be effective against dangers such as the darkspawn. So after a group of them voiced their objections to these limitations, it was agreed that they could conduct higher level magic away from the general population and under supervision of Templars in case things should go wrong. No doubt locking the doors was intended originally as an extra safeguard should the magic become too wayward for even the Templars to contain (as happened at Kinloch Hold in DAO). All this seems perfectly reasonable and there is no suggestion there of mages being incarcerated against their will or denied all access to the outside world without special permission. Bear in mind that Tevinter actually started the Circle system under Hessarian and they still seem to operate much as they were originally intended to. Drakon would have been familiar with the system as his family originated in Tevinter, so it was only natural that he would see the benefits of having a similar organisation of magical research and education in his own empire. However, somewhere along the line, this original concept changed to the rounding up of all mages, not matter what their level of skill or whether they wanted to perform high level magic or not. For some reason, owing to the occasional instance of abominations causing destruction both inside and outside the Circles, this was used as the excuse to round up all mages and insist they should be kept away from the community. At some point it was decided to weed out those mages who might seem at greater risk of possession by means of the Harrowing and perform the Rite of Tranquility on those who did not want to undertake the test. Yet, even when someone had passed the test, they still were not allowed back into the community. So effectively the Circles had become mage prisons, at least so far as the commoner mages were concerned. Those from the background of nobility do seem to have been given greater degree of freedom. This is why I suspect that what originally seemed an eminently sensible and practical way of allowing magical research to be undertaken safely was gradually altered for political reasons. This may either have been because the nobility didn't want commoner mages around who might give their communities greater power to challenge their rule, particularly when those nobles abused their power, or possibly around the time that the Imperial Chantry broke away and mages resumed positions of authority in Tevinter because the nobility in the south were afraid of the same thing happening to them. Whenever an organisation becomes too connected with the ruling elite and looking after their interests rather than those of the whole community, is when it is more likely to become corrupted from its original ideals. That is what happened to the original Inquisition when they became the Seekers of Truth under the Chantry and that also seems to be what happened to the Circles.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 15, 2019 19:24:55 GMT
Any chance we can go back to discussing whether the moral decay of organizations is inevitable? You make a really good case. Sadly, my choices can't lead to anything but Divine Leliana and I don't want my Inquisitor to be the type who abuses the own power (supporting Divine candidate) Sorry for derailing another one of your threads, Iddy. Nah, it isn't inevitable at all. There's always the possibility that the organization goes bankrupt, is forcefully disbanded or just peters out before it happens. An interesting look at the inevitability of moral decay is modern tech giants, for example. Building a business used to be a painstaking step-by-step process of building connections and a brand, figuring out how to successfully market a product - which is insanely hard to do on any large scale - and competing tooth and nail with other companies with even more hardened and ruthless and experienced leadership than you, who had all gone through the same process. And companies led by people who really had no conscience to begin with had a towering advantage of there being no low they weren't prepared to go to, and if you wanted to compete with them then you had to match their cynicism or they simply stole your customers. Today though, a niche idea well-executed by bright-eyed and bushy-tailed young nerds can skyrocket them to the top of the market over just a few years, leaving them with an effective monopoly and none of the hardening experience of trying to outplay psychopaths at... well, monopoly, leaving their usually liberal and mostly genuine values more or less intact from college. I sure as hell remember how pristine and altruistic Google seemed when they first became a thing, for example. ...But then time passes, and new competitors turn up trying to muscle their way into the niche to get a slice of the cake, and the good intentions and honorable business practices that were so easy to seem to stick to when there was no real competition occasionally need to be compromised to maintain the head-start. And that pressure doesn't lessen, ever, because there'll always be more people willing to take their own shot at whatever you're doing if it seems like you're getting something out of it. Appropriating useful methods from others is the most natural thing in the world for us. And eventually one or two of them actually start to take, and now you're outdated and in a fight for your life. And so eventually even apparently squaky-clean companies with every conceivable advantage in the market is embroiled in the struggle to stay afloat. Sorry about the fluffy language, I don't think I've ever attempted to talk trade-speak in English before. I'd also like to ground observations more in Dragon Age lore, but the only real taste I remember getting of business in Thedas is Hawke's dealings with Bartrand and that whiny noble with the dragon-magnetic mine he offers you a share in, and several war table missions that offer cool but not very elaborate insights. It'd be really cool if the next game goes more into that part of the world, or at least allows us to play characters engaged with it. Vaguely authentic-seeming trade and resource distribution is usually a good way to ground fantasy stories.
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Post by Iddy on Apr 15, 2019 19:43:44 GMT
Any chance we can go back to discussing whether the moral decay of organizations is inevitable? You make a really good case. Sadly, my choices can't lead to anything but Divine Leliana and I don't want my Inquisitor to be the type who abuses the own power (supporting Divine candidate) Sorry for derailing another one of your threads, Iddy. Nah, it isn't inevitable at all. There's always the possibility that the organization goes bankrupt, is forcefully disbanded or just peters out before it happens. An interesting look at the inevitability of moral decay is modern tech giants, for example. Building a business used to be a painstaking step-by-step process of building connections and a brand, figuring out how to successfully market a product - which is insanely hard to do on any large scale - and competing tooth and nail with other companies with even more hardened and ruthless and experienced leadership than you, who had all gone through the same process. And companies led by people who really had no conscience to begin with had a towering advantage of there being no low they weren't prepared to go to, and if you wanted to compete with them then you had to match their cynicism or they simply stole your customers. Today though, a niche idea well-executed by bright-eyed and bushy-tailed young nerds can skyrocket them to the top of the market over just a few years, leaving them with an effective monopoly and none of the hardening experience of trying to outplay psychopaths at... well, monopoly, leaving their usually liberal and mostly genuine values more or less intact from college. I sure as hell remember how pristine and altruistic Google seemed when they first became a thing, for example. ...But then time passes, and new competitors turn up trying to muscle their way into the niche to get a slice of the cake, and the good intentions and honorable business practices that were so easy to seem to stick to when there was no real competition occasionally need to be compromised to maintain the head-start. And that pressure doesn't lessen, ever, because there'll always be more people willing to take their own shot at whatever you're doing if it seems like you're getting something out of it. Appropriating useful methods from others is the most natural thing in the world for us. And eventually one or two of them actually start to take, and now you're outdated and in a fight for your life. And so eventually even apparently squaky-clean companies with every conceivable advantage in the market is embroiled in the struggle to stay afloat. Sorry about the fluffy language, I don't think I've ever attempted to talk trade-speak in English before. I'd also like to ground observations more in Dragon Age lore, but the only real taste I remember getting of business in Thedas is Hawke's dealings with Bartrand and that whiny noble with the dragon-magnetic mine he offers you a share in, and several war table missions that offer cool but not very elaborate insights. It'd be really cool if the next game goes more into that part of the world, or at least allows us to play characters engaged with it. Vaguely authentic-seeming trade and resource distribution is usually a good way to ground fantasy stories. In short, be like Tyrion Lannister. Honorable, but still well aware of how the game is played.
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Post by Noxluxe on Apr 15, 2019 21:36:46 GMT
In short, be like Tyrion Lannister. Honorable, but still well aware of how the game is played. Sure... In the sense of being forced to observe rather disgusting behavior going unpunished and occasionally having to participate, and trying to do the least amount of collateral damage possible while still staying afloat oneself. Yup, in that sense, being like Tyrion is probably the closest thing to a moral way to run a business in the long run, though obviously it can't last forever before you're either so jaded that the collateral damage doesn't really disturb you anymore, or you're outcompeted by someone who is. Really, the Lannister family are great examples of different kinds of sucky leaders coming to their natural ends. The half-assed one is rejected and replaced, the apathetic one gets in over his head, the short-sighted and egotistical one is exploited and chases all her partners away, and the utterly ruthless one does best in the long run but fosters too much ill will and resentment to survive his moment of weakness.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 16, 2019 9:19:19 GMT
Another example I would give of how it was the original set up of the organisation that was faulty and likely to lead to corruption of its ideal and that is the Templars. We were told back in DAO that the criteria for admission to their ranks was a demonstration of religious fervour rather than moral fibre. Basically I should imagine that all you need to do is to recite passages from the Chant of Light by heart and your are in.
It was also seen by the nobility as a suitable employment for surplus offspring, both giving their family kudos for supporting the Chantry and ensuring the offspring had something useful to do with their time. However, as is evidenced by Sebastian's story and Alistair's, the families seemed to use the Chantry as a dumping ground for troublesome children, whether legitimate or not, and those children very often ended up in the Templars. If they were already of the sort of disposition that the family felt better off shot of them, that would be carried over into the ranks of the Templars. Yet, because religious fervour was the only qualification for admittance, these individuals were likely just the sort of people who should not be given authority over others, particularly those of a lower rank than themselves. This would have been even worse in Orlais where the nobility already regarded themselves as entitled to use the lower ranks as they pleased.
So it was the attributes needed for admittance to the Templar Order that were at fault. Seeing as religious fervour was necessary as a qualification to be a Seeker, it would have been better if the Templars had concentrated on recruiting individuals who seemed to show devotion to the moral imperatives of the Chant. Of course, when the Chantry seemed to hold no one to account in the wider world, it is likely no one saw the necessity to apply such a distinction in the Templar Order. However, it was a major contributing factor to the abuse that occurred in the Circles as anyone who cared about such things should have been able to foresee. Having been made aware of the sort of abuse that occurred, it should be hoped that Divine Cassandra would have made a more rigorous investigation into the character of recruits an essential part of the structure of her reformed Templar Order.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 18, 2019 12:49:06 GMT
This is a big theme in DAI: Organizations start off with a good premise (Chantry, Seekers, Grey Wardens, Inquisition) but then go corrupt. So what are we to take from this? That having faith in an organization is pointless because it will inevitably turn bad? Or that it's just something you keep fixing as many times as needed? I'd say the second one. What else are we going to do? Not have organizations? Another example I would give of how it was the original set up of the organisation that was faulty and likely to lead to corruption of its ideal and that is the Templars. We were told back in DAO that the criteria for admission to their ranks was a demonstration of religious fervour rather than moral fibre. Basically I should imagine that all you need to do is to recite passages from the Chant of Light by heart and your are in. That wasn't the original setup, though, was it? Back when they were still called the Inquisition they accepted an Orzammar exile, two Dalish mages, and who knows how many other people the Templar order wouldn't have accepted during the early Dragon Age. All they seem to have cared about was moral fibre, fighting ability, and a willingness to do whatever the world needed done. And while their leader was Andrastian, he was Andrastian in a decidedly non-mainstream way and accepted an Orzammar exile who I'd guess wasn't Andrastian at all. I don't think any of them were accepted as a direct result of their faith: if any of them were there because of their faith it was because their faith pushed them to develop the qualities the Inquisition needed. Not the worst model, right? The Templars should have remembered it.Well, second sons need some kind of gainful employment, right? The fact that the templars accepted sons the nobility didn't quite know what to do with wasn't in and of itself the problem. That's where Ser Barris came from, and led to it he can be everything the templars ought to be. I think the thing you mentioned above, where the templars didn't prize moral fibre, really is the main problem.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 18, 2019 19:43:56 GMT
That wasn't the original setup, though, was it? Back when they were still called the Inquisition they accepted an Orzammar exile, two Dalish mages, and who knows how many other people the Templar order wouldn't have accepted during the early Dragon Age. All they seem to have cared about was moral fibre, fighting ability, and a willingness to do whatever the world needed done. And while their leader was Andrastian, he was Andrastian in a decidedly non-mainstream way and accepted an Orzammar exile who I'd guess wasn't Andrastian at all. I don't think any of them were accepted as a direct result of their faith: if any of them were there because of their faith it was because their faith pushed them to develop the qualities the Inquisition needed. I was referring to the Templar Order as it existed under the Chantry. Personally I don't regard the original Inquisition to have been the forerunner of either the Seekers or the Templars in anything other than the fact they believed in the Maker. Mind you we have had very conflicting accounts of the original Inquisition. Some Chantry scholars would have us believe their were religious fanatics, whilst other histories suggest they were just trying to give some semblance of order and justice to the world in the south post Andraste. However, just how disordered was that world? It wasn't united under one central religious organisation or secular power and seemed predominantly made up of rival clans but did that really mean it was the chaotic and dangerous world the Chantry would have us believe? Then in Jaws of Hakkon we are given to understand that its members were reluctant to come under the umbrella of the Chantry and so Ameridan was persuaded to take up the leadership by Drakon specifically so he could encourage them to do so. Why were they reluctant? Is it in fact because many of its members were just morally upright individuals who wanted a fair and just society for all and having witnessed what Drakon had done to his political rivals and several of the more unusual Andrastrian sects, they felt that they could no longer maintain their integrity shackled to the Emperor and his Chantry? This is why I feel if you go by the information we were given in Jaws of Hakkon, then the old Inquisition cannot be regarded as the forerunner of the Templars and Seekers of Truth. However, if you go by the Chantry's version that they were religious fanatics with a particular fervour when it came to mages, then I can see the connection. Perhaps it is best to look at how history repeats itself with the new Inquisition. Whilst our organisation was founded under the mandate of Divine Justinia by two of her key personnel, once our PC takes over leadership, it does have a character of its own that can be anything from tyranny to merciful dispensation of justice whilst maintaining order in a chaotic world. However, whatever the perception of it under the PC, once it becomes the Divine's private army (as Justinia always intended) then it will be moulded by her. No doubt several hundred years down the line people will have forgotten the Inquisitor was anything other than human and a devout Andrastrian. In fact, it is because I didn't want history to repeat itself that I preferred to disband the organisation so that it didn't become a tool of the Chantry that bore little resemblance to the organisation that I had led.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 18, 2019 19:52:57 GMT
Well, second sons need some kind of gainful employment, right? The fact that the templars accepted sons the nobility didn't quite know what to do with wasn't in and of itself the problem. That's where Ser Barris came from, and led to it he can be everything the templars ought to be. I think the thing you mentioned above, where the templars didn't prize moral fibre, really is the main problem. That was my point. Giving younger offspring something useful to do with their lives wasn't the problem. It was more the fact that the family tended to offload offspring on the Chantry that they preferred not to have hanging around the place because they were difficult to control. If having a good character had been made the prime attribute for consideration, then I'm pretty sure many of those noble cast offs wouldn't have made the cut. There was also the wider problem of how the nobility regarded themselves in relation to those of lesser rank. In Orlais it is hardly surprising if there was abuse in the Circles when it was considered normal behaviour in society outside. Why should a noble, who had grown up thinking that you can treat commoners as you please because you are noble by divine right, alter that outlook just because they happened to have made an oath to the Chantry?
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 18, 2019 21:22:17 GMT
That wasn't the original setup, though, was it? Back when they were still called the Inquisition they accepted an Orzammar exile, two Dalish mages, and who knows how many other people the Templar order wouldn't have accepted during the early Dragon Age. All they seem to have cared about was moral fibre, fighting ability, and a willingness to do whatever the world needed done. And while their leader was Andrastian, he was Andrastian in a decidedly non-mainstream way and accepted an Orzammar exile who I'd guess wasn't Andrastian at all. I don't think any of them were accepted as a direct result of their faith: if any of them were there because of their faith it was because their faith pushed them to develop the qualities the Inquisition needed. I was referring to the Templar Order as it existed under the Chantry. Personally I don't regard the original Inquisition to have been the forerunner of either the Seekers or the Templars in anything other than the fact they believed in the Maker. Mind you we have had very conflicting accounts of the original Inquisition. Some Chantry scholars would have us believe their were religious fanatics, whilst other histories suggest they were just trying to give some semblance of order and justice to the world in the south post Andraste. However, just how disordered was that world? It wasn't united under one central religious organisation or secular power and seemed predominantly made up of rival clans but did that really mean it was the chaotic and dangerous world the Chantry would have us believe? Then in Jaws of Hakkon we are given to understand that its members were reluctant to come under the umbrella of the Chantry and so Ameridan was persuaded to take up the leadership by Drakon specifically so he could encourage them to do so. Why were they reluctant? Is it in fact because many of its members were just morally upright individuals who wanted a fair and just society for all and having witnessed what Drakon had done to his political rivals and several of the more unusual Andrastrian sects, they felt that they could no longer maintain their integrity shackled to the Emperor and his Chantry? This is why I feel if you go by the information we were given in Jaws of Hakkon, then the old Inquisition cannot be regarded as the forerunner of the Templars and Seekers of Truth. However, if you go by the Chantry's version that they were religious fanatics with a particular fervour when it came to mages, then I can see the connection. The closest thing we have to an unbiased in-setting account is probably this Codex, which says that without a central authority, there was chaos, much of it the result of magic. Which makes sense. With every rival clan left to its own devices, and no central authority to handle training and policing mages (or protecting them from angry muggle mobs,) things could go wrong in a hurry. Local authorities can't necessarily handle a criminal or incompetent mage, and won't necessarily be fair with a mage who is neither. And it sounds like the Inquisition's founders wanted to handle both problems. The Southern Templars themselves would consider themselves the logical inheritors of that goal: they protect muggles from mages, and at least the sane ones are willing to do the converse. And I'd imagine even the crazy ones think they're protecting everyone (even the mages) from magic.
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on Apr 19, 2019 0:41:45 GMT
The closest thing we have to an unbiased in-setting account is probably this Codex, which says that without a central authority, there was chaos, much of it the result of magic. Which makes sense. With every rival clan left to its own devices, and no central authority to handle training and policing mages (or protecting them from angry muggle mobs,) things could go wrong in a hurry. Let's also remember that Ameridan was the last Inquisitor in a long line of them. The organization had been going for some time since the end of the Blight and the collapse of the Imperium. They really were fighting chaos.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 19, 2019 7:35:16 GMT
The closest thing we have to an unbiased in-setting account is probably this Codex, which says that without a central authority, there was chaos, much of it the result of magic Not exactly unbiased, it was written by Brother Genitivi and whilst he might try and maintain impartiality, he is nevertheless influenced by his own background and beliefs. The thing is Tevinter had been gradually weakening in the south for some time. The secular history of Andraste confirms that much of her success lay in the fact that the southern barbarians had never stopped fighting them and the Blight had left Tevinter in a considerably weakened state, so they had been forced to consolidate their power in certain areas and neglect others. South of the Waking Sea they had already largely withdrawn but stuck to a policy of regarding them as a source of slaves and making periodic raids. What was unique to Andraste was that her mother was Ciriane, her father was Alamarri and her husband was from the Avvar, so she was able to unite these normally warring tribes into one cohesive military unit. When slavers captured Andraste, Maferath was forced to negotiate her release because she gave him his authority with the non-Avvar tribes. Once his betrayal became known, the tribes turned on him. A rather crafty move by Hessarian as it ensured the tribes would not unite against Tevinter again. However, did the fact that the south was now a conglomerate of different tribes, no longer united against a common foe, mean that it was utter chaos? Surely this was the Drakon's and the Chantry's propaganda to justify his empire building. It was part of their agenda to convince people that they needed a central consolidation of power for their defence and a central religion to unite them. Did the south universally condemn mages because of the actions of Tevinter? Hardly likely given the evidence of the Avvar and the Chasind. There is reason to suspect that Andraste was herself a mage, likely filling the role of Augur among her people. It seems far more likely that the tribes united behind the Maker as her clan's personal god, much as the Avvar still do, and that they continued to worship their own individual gods as well. Hence it being possible for Ameridan to openly worship both the Maker and his own tribal god. If people in the south were universally distrustful of mages and rogue mages were rampant, why would Drakon think making an elven mage leader of the organisation meant to control them would be a good move in order to get them to trust him? Why would Ameridan and Telana even be accepted in the organisation? If we do not consider the various contradictory histories a lack of consistency by the writers of the game and lore books, then it would seem they are demonstrating the history we were originally told, that came from the Chantry, is not the full story. An Inquisition probably was needed to track down and counter stray demons and rogue groups, both mage and non-mage, who simply crossed borders from one tribal area to another to escape retribution (rather as Lavellan clan did in the Freemarches). The fact that they are said to have treated malefactors equally, whether noble, mage or mundane commoner, would seem to back up this idea. It is likely that members of the organisation were meant to demonstrate belief in the Maker but not to the exclusion of their other gods or beliefs. So, for example, a surface dwarf could still show reverence for the Stone provided they also acknowledged the Maker. Or may be our modern Inquisition did mirror the older one. Even if our PC claimed absolute belief in the Maker and their role of Herald, other people were accepted into our service, even part of our inner Circle who did not.
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