linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,179 Likes: 4,063
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 18, 2019 4:55:28 GMT
But people's feelings should be meaningless to truth or fact. I'll be honest, I'm not sure how anyone is "in the dark" at this point. So when Bioware showcased the Inquisition keep system (Crestwood), then quietly took it out of the game without telling anyone, gamers were completely aware what was going on, were they? Youre using a poor example, shit happens during game development like that all the time. The only crime is that demo leaked to the public when it shouldn't have from what I recalled. And like I said, I find it hard to believe folks are really in the dark as to announcements being made. Folks in the stream, fair enough they are mad that they were the last to know, but to start tin foil hatting it is kind of silly without evidence.
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Post by biggydx on Apr 18, 2019 4:56:53 GMT
Some goodwill is extended from the community if the company has great communication and transparency and I can't remember the last time Bioware had those things. This silence or mysteriousness is just another of those things that make them seem increasingly corporate. How long would it have taken for someone to give their twitch peeps, those taking the time out of their day to join them, a heads up? But no, I expect any response needs to be run through PR, EA's PR, legal, numerous other offices... I mean, they said quickly that a line got cut at their offices. Hell, they have been pretty quick with a lot of feedback and videos over the past few months. I'm not sure how more transparent you can be unless you think they are lying on purpose. In which case, no form of transparency would be acceptable for many because they would assume the worst and the studio is lying. I find it very unlikely that they would wait to cancel something at the last minute unless there was an unforeseen issue, and the state of the game they wished to show on stream not working would likely have been known ahead of time if it was true. I believe the main issue regarding BioWare's communication is: - They used to be heavily communicative with the community pre-launch. Since then, they've largely become silent over the last month. This has even extended to the community managers as well. - Though they've outlined a roadmap on new content that's coming, they haven't outlined a roadmap for how they intend to fix specific aspects of the game in the long run (ex. Loot, bugs, etc). - Though the outage of their internet may be out of their control, them being able to at least provide a synopsis of what was intended to be shown (or whats to come) is not. Considering that no new information has been put out on the matter, outside of them telling everyone there's a new stronghold on the way, it's (rightfully) upset a lot of people. Compounding this issue is the fact that we're about to head into Easter break, which means they likely won't be communicating with us till the day before the next livestream. Maybe that synopsis will come tomorrow or Friday. We don't know. I know that it's common knowledge that developers work on new patches up until the final day they need to send it through platform certification, but that doesn't exclude the fact that they're fully capable of knowing what absolutely will and will not be in the patch. For example, the new Stronghold will be in the patch. Let us know what theme its centered around, and what the story is behind it. It was datamined already that new weapons and gear have been added to the game. If these are also expected to be in the game, go ahead and mention those as well. There may be bug fixes that they absolutely needed to push in with this upcoming update. Mention those as well. BioWare is committing the same mistakes that Bungie did during the initial launch window of Destiny 2. They were largely silent regarding the current status of the game, and when compounding controversies continued to surround the game (like xp throttling), it set the community to the boiling point. Ultimately, Bungie had to start putting out roadmaps outlining what they planned on doing to fix the game, as well as needing to communicate more with fans. Yes, people were still angry and upset, but ultimately they worked the game to where it is know: still with some flaws, but with a more fulfilling core gameplay experience. Silence can be just as harmful to a game/developer as talking too much; and even I would still take the latter.
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Post by river82 on Apr 18, 2019 4:58:45 GMT
So when Bioware showcased the Inquisition keep system (Crestwood), then quietly took it out of the game without telling anyone, gamers were completely aware what was going on, were they? Youre using a poor example, shit happens during game development like that all the time. The only crime is that demo leaked to the public when it shouldn't have from what I recalled. And like I said, I find it hard to believe folks are really in the dark as to announcements being made. Folks in the stream, fair enough they are mad that they were the last to know, but to start tin foil hatting it is kind of silly without evidence. Oh I think it's a very good example of recent Bioware. Shit does happen all the time, HOWEVER a mechanic was advertised to the consumer and nothing else was spoken about it. The reasonable expectation of the consumer would be that it would still be in the game. The lack of transparency and communication from Bioware led to a lot of people being disappointed. It is not unreasonable to expect Bioware to correct expectations from earlier builds.
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Post by clips7 on Apr 18, 2019 5:10:43 GMT
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,179 Likes: 4,063
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 18, 2019 6:09:18 GMT
I mean, they said quickly that a line got cut at their offices. Hell, they have been pretty quick with a lot of feedback and videos over the past few months. I'm not sure how more transparent you can be unless you think they are lying on purpose. In which case, no form of transparency would be acceptable for many because they would assume the worst and the studio is lying. I find it very unlikely that they would wait to cancel something at the last minute unless there was an unforeseen issue, and the state of the game they wished to show on stream not working would likely have been known ahead of time if it was true. I believe the main issue regarding BioWare's communication is: - They used to be heavily communicative with the community pre-launch. Since then, they've largely become silent over the last month. This has even extended to the community managers as well. - Though they've outlined a roadmap on new content that's coming, they haven't outlined a roadmap for how they intend to fix specific aspects of the game in the long run (ex. Loot, bugs, etc). - Though the outage of their internet may be out of their control, them being able to at least provide a synopsis of what was intended to be shown (or whats to come) is not. Considering that no new information has been put out on the matter, outside of them telling everyone there's a new stronghold on the way, it's (rightfully) upset a lot of people. Compounding this issue is the fact that we're about to head into Easter break, which means they likely won't be communicating with us till the day before the next livestream. Maybe that synopsis will come tomorrow or Friday. We don't know. I know that it's common knowledge that developers work on new patches up until the final day they need to send it through platform certification, but that doesn't exclude the fact that they're fully capable of knowing what absolutely will and will not be in the patch. For example, the new Stronghold will be in the patch. Let us know what theme its centered around, and what the story is behind it. It was datamined already that new weapons and gear have been added to the game. If these are also expected to be in the game, go ahead and mention those as well. There may be bug fixes that they absolutely needed to push in with this upcoming update. Mention those as well. BioWare is committing the same mistakes that Bungie did during the initial launch window of Destiny 2. They were largely silent regarding the current status of the game, and when compounding controversies continued to surround the game (like xp throttling), it set the community to the boiling point. Ultimately, Bungie had to start putting out roadmaps outlining what they planned on doing to fix the game, as well as needing to communicate more with fans. Yes, people were still angry and upset, but ultimately they worked the game to where it is know: still with some flaws, but with a more fulfilling core gameplay experience. Silence can be just as harmful to a game/developer as talking too much; and even I would still take the latter. So the problem is...people are impatient for new information? I guess I am failing to see why that is even an issue, but I also have a feeling that the service model folks want is also super specific. I would presume the point of the stream is live questions and going through the stronghold right? Is that not adequate enough if thats all they do versus a youtube video that accomplishes the same effect minus the pointed questions by live people? I guess I'm not understanding why people are impatient. This is not silnece to me, since we know the main selling point of the content is coming and we already got a patch update a week or so ago. Silence is more akin to what Sean Murray did for a full year while releasing updates to No Man's Sky, or how Nintendo operates with their directs and sometimes a year long build after a game is announced.
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Post by SofaJockey on Apr 18, 2019 6:52:33 GMT
So when Bioware showcased the Inquisition keep system (Crestwood), then quietly took it out of the game without telling anyone, gamers were completely aware what was going on, were they? Those were pre-alpha mechanics that weren't even widely communicated. I'm sure that argument is still raging somewhere in the Dragon Age forum. Similar to some elements from the E3 17 Anthem demo, not everything makes launch. Has to be said, though, the Schreier articles have sent BioWare into a serious lockdown, to only talk about stuff that is 100% ready to talk about. There's not much casual chat.
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Post by river82 on Apr 18, 2019 6:58:41 GMT
So when Bioware showcased the Inquisition keep system (Crestwood), then quietly took it out of the game without telling anyone, gamers were completely aware what was going on, were they? Those were pre-alpha mechanics that weren't even widely communicated. I'm sure that argument is still raging somewhere in the Dragon Age forum. Similar to some elements from the E3 17 Anthem demo, not everything makes launch. But they were communicated. They showed the thing off at digi-expo. It doesn't matter that they didn't communicate to the whole public, they were responsible for letting the information out into the public. If they thought some person there somehow wasn't a journalist, or that wouldn't have communicated features to a journalist, or that somehow that information would not get reported on whatsoever then they're a bit naΓ―ve. This isn't a case where someone smuggled out information that wasn't designed to be shown off. In this instance they were responsible for the release of that information and never corrected it. It's like Cyberpunk and it's limited journalist only showcase. Sure it was for journalists only and not the wider public, but that didn't mean it wouldn't be reported to hell and back.
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Post by SofaJockey on Apr 18, 2019 7:25:04 GMT
But they were communicated. They showed the thing off at digi-expo. Yep, they thought that would be a thing long before launch and as it turned out it wasn't. They said it was an early look subject to change and it changed.
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correctamundo
N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
Prime Likes: They never liked me! No one likes me!
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by correctamundo on Apr 18, 2019 7:27:48 GMT
We had a data cable cut from the front of my workplace a few years ago and that took about a week to fix so....π€ Can't say I enjoyed the emergency 4 hour drive to the other office location and the incessant irate calls from customers but not much I could do either. Stop with that misinformation. Everyone knows that a dug off fibrecable only needs a duct tape so everything will be up and running in seconds. Bioware is "obviously" lying, there can be no other explanation. The two last big internet/fibre cable problems in my arera have ranged from about twelve hours to 14 days to fix. I mean, they said quickly that a line got cut at their offices. Hell, they have been pretty quick with a lot of feedback and videos over the past few months. I'm not sure how more transparent you can be unless you think they are lying on purpose. In which case, no form of transparency would be acceptable for many because they would assume the worst and the studio is lying. I find it very unlikely that they would wait to cancel something at the last minute unless there was an unforeseen issue, and the state of the game they wished to show on stream not working would likely have been known ahead of time if it was true. Communication is the exchange of information, if that information isn't being directed at the people who would most need that information, like the people on the stream, then yes their communication is shit. If the information WAS communicated to people on the stream by Bioware personnel ... then blame Sofa, I got the information from him *shrugs* Transparency isn't related to this issue, it's just a general comment about how in the dark the consumer is about Bioware games and the general feeling of "being misled" people feel. Bioware tweeted way ahead of stream. So noone was kept in the dark on the stream since it was cancelled ahead of time. So when Bioware showcased the Inquisition keep system (Crestwood), then quietly took it out of the game without telling anyone, gamers were completely aware what was going on, were they? Youre using a poor example, shit happens during game development like that all the time. The only crime is that demo leaked to the public when it shouldn't have from what I recalled. And like I said, I find it hard to believe folks are really in the dark as to announcements being made. Folks in the stream, fair enough they are mad that they were the last to know, but to start tin foil hatting it is kind of silly without evidence. There was no stream though. If people hang in the twitch chat off stream is up to them , I'm one of those people but it's not like it took many seconds for Biowares tweet to reach the chat.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 3,381 Likes: 6,961
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Post by saandrig on Apr 18, 2019 7:36:01 GMT
Cutting a cable just to stop a live stream is a bit desperate...but I guess Bioware is pretty desperate at this point... What? We all thought it, I just said it out loud π
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Post by Pounce de LeΓ³n on Apr 18, 2019 7:54:47 GMT
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Post by river82 on Apr 18, 2019 7:59:07 GMT
But they were communicated. They showed the thing off at digi-expo. Yep, they thought that would be a thing long before launch and as it turned out it wasn't. They said it was an early look subject to change and it changed. I'm not arguing that it is unreasonable that it changed. I'm saying that once they showed that feature off, if it changed they should have communicated that before the game shipped. And that they didn't is an example of their lack of communication and lack of transparency
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Post by PillarBiter on Apr 18, 2019 10:22:45 GMT
Yep, they thought that would be a thing long before launch and as it turned out it wasn't. They said it was an early look subject to change and it changed. I'm not arguing that it is unreasonable that it changed. I'm saying that once they showed that feature off, if it changed they should have communicated that before the game shipped. And that they didn't is an example of their lack of communication and lack of transparency You have every right to believe it is, but from a corporate standpoint, it totally isn't. First of all, it was a closed demo of an alpha that is subject to change. They could've had flying clowns shooting red noses at you that didn't make the final cut, and it would not have mattered. Second, are you really suggesting they 'communicate' every changed planning during pre-production or production? Don't be absurd. Third, there'a huge difference between the; being communicative, and you feeling like you've been duped. Bioware HAS been communicate about anthem. And if you want to keep grasping at arguments since years past (I cannot believe we're still having this discussion so many years later lol), you're not opening yourself up to giving them a chance to redeem themselves.
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Post by river82 on Apr 18, 2019 11:13:52 GMT
I'm not arguing that it is unreasonable that it changed. I'm saying that once they showed that feature off, if it changed they should have communicated that before the game shipped. And that they didn't is an example of their lack of communication and lack of transparency You have every right to believe it is, but from a corporate standpoint, it totally isn't. First of all, it was a closed demo of an alpha that is subject to change. They could've had flying clowns shooting red noses at you that didn't make the final cut, and it would not have mattered. Second, are you really suggesting they 'communicate' every changed planning during pre-production or production? Don't be absurd. Third, there'a huge difference between the; being communicative, and you feeling like you've been duped. Bioware HAS been communicate about anthem. And if you want to keep grasping at arguments since years past (I cannot believe we're still having this discussion so many years later lol), you're not opening yourself up to giving them a chance to redeem themselves. First of all that demo was presented as representative of the game. It is subject to change but without any communication of that effect, it isn't reasonable to expect consumers to suddenly develop ESP powers. Second I am suggesting they correct any information they put out into the public that is no longer representative of their product. That is not unreasonable. Third putting information out into the public and letting that information dictate consumer buying practices when it no longer represents your product is being misleading, whether intentional or not. If you have read my comments on Anthem you would know I am giving it a chance. However, as someone who has fallen prey to their β¦ suspect communication patterns in the past I no longer trust what they SAY. Instead I'll take a look how the game is in a year's time. I fully expect most of the problems to be fixed in a year or two.
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Post by PillarBiter on Apr 18, 2019 12:25:43 GMT
You have every right to believe it is, but from a corporate standpoint, it totally isn't. First of all, it was a closed demo of an alpha that is subject to change. They could've had flying clowns shooting red noses at you that didn't make the final cut, and it would not have mattered. Second, are you really suggesting they 'communicate' every changed planning during pre-production or production? Don't be absurd. Third, there'a huge difference between the; being communicative, and you feeling like you've been duped. Bioware HAS been communicate about anthem. And if you want to keep grasping at arguments since years past (I cannot believe we're still having this discussion so many years later lol), you're not opening yourself up to giving them a chance to redeem themselves. If you have read my comments on Anthem you would know I am giving it a chance. However, as someone who has fallen prey to their β¦ suspect communication patterns in the past I no longer trust what they SAY. Instead I'll take a look how the game is in a year's time. I fully expect most of the problems to be fixed in a year or two. Me and the only 2 other guys still playing by then will welcome you! At least then we'll have a full squad again.
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cypherj
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by cypherj on Apr 18, 2019 12:49:19 GMT
You have every right to believe it is, but from a corporate standpoint, it totally isn't. First of all, it was a closed demo of an alpha that is subject to change. They could've had flying clowns shooting red noses at you that didn't make the final cut, and it would not have mattered. Second, are you really suggesting they 'communicate' every changed planning during pre-production or production? Don't be absurd. Third, there'a huge difference between the; being communicative, and you feeling like you've been duped. Bioware HAS been communicate about anthem. And if you want to keep grasping at arguments since years past (I cannot believe we're still having this discussion so many years later lol), you're not opening yourself up to giving them a chance to redeem themselves. First of all that demo was presented as representative of the game. It is subject to change but without any communication of that effect, it isn't reasonable to expect consumers to suddenly develop ESP powers. Second I am suggesting they correct any information they put out into the public that is no longer representative of their product. That is not unreasonable.Third putting information out into the public and letting that information dictate consumer buying practices when it no longer represents your product is being misleading, whether intentional or not. If you have read my comments on Anthem you would know I am giving it a chance. However, as someone who has fallen prey to their β¦ suspect communication patterns in the past I no longer trust what they SAY. Instead I'll take a look how the game is in a year's time. I fully expect most of the problems to be fixed in a year or two.
I don't know if I agree with this. I don't think any and every change needs to be addressed. If they showcase something and scrap it, by all means, they need to tell people. For example, I read an article that said they had initially planned for Javelin's to be able to climb of enemies like Titans. Had they showcased javelins climbing on Titans at E3, or in a livestream or something, and then found they couldn't make it work. They would definitely need to tell people.
But having to remember everything they said or could be seen in any livestream or update, and make corrections would be a lot to ask.
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Post by river82 on Apr 18, 2019 13:15:33 GMT
First of all that demo was presented as representative of the game. It is subject to change but without any communication of that effect, it isn't reasonable to expect consumers to suddenly develop ESP powers. Second I am suggesting they correct any information they put out into the public that is no longer representative of their product. That is not unreasonable.Third putting information out into the public and letting that information dictate consumer buying practices when it no longer represents your product is being misleading, whether intentional or not. If you have read my comments on Anthem you would know I am giving it a chance. However, as someone who has fallen prey to their β¦ suspect communication patterns in the past I no longer trust what they SAY. Instead I'll take a look how the game is in a year's time. I fully expect most of the problems to be fixed in a year or two.
I don't know if I agree with this. I don't think any and every change needs to be addressed. If they showcase something and scrap it, by all means, they need to tell people. For example, I read an article that said they had initially planned for Javelin's to be able to climb of enemies like Titans. Had they showcased javelins climbing on Titans at E3, or in a livestream or something, and then found they couldn't make it work. They would definitely need to tell people.
But having to remember everything they said or could be seen in any livestream or update, and make corrections would be a lot to ask.
The only thing I want and expect from a company in the lead up to a game is to have the ability to make a fully informed decision. I don't think this should be an unreasonable request. I should point out that the keep system they showed off was actually one of the things I looked forward to the most, and when I found out it was scrapped I felt like I was unable to make a fully informed purchasing decision. I felt as a consumer I did all the things I could reasonably do research wise short of just not believing what they show or say, so now unfortunately I just don't believe what they show or say
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 18, 2019 20:22:34 GMT
A fair bit riding on today's livestream I suspect... How did that work out for them? I swear, if I didn't have such fond memories of old Bioware and old Bethesda it would be an absolute laugh riot watching these two fumbling and bumbling about as they compete for the "laughing stock of the industry" title. Instead it just makes me sad and wistful for days gone by.
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Post by SofaJockey on Apr 18, 2019 20:27:45 GMT
How did that work out for them? Just as much riding on Tuesday, I suspect.
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The Legend Continues
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
XBL Gamertag: Mobius Y
PSN: Mobius_Y
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Post by Mobius Y on Apr 18, 2019 21:02:12 GMT
Sucks. I like hearing about the info-drop from these streams after work. Oh well, shit happens I guess.
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Post by ayenari on Apr 18, 2019 21:02:54 GMT
A fair bit riding on today's livestream I suspect... How did that work out for them? I swear, if I didn't have such fond memories of old Bioware and old Bethesda it would be an absolute laugh riot watching these two fumbling and bumbling about as they compete for the "laughing stock of the industry" title. Instead it just makes me sad and wistful for days gone by. Eh, a developer livestream getting delayed by just under a week is no big deal.
There'd be far more reason to complain if they were cancelling it outright, but that's not what seems to be happening.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 18, 2019 21:15:19 GMT
A fair bit riding on today's livestream I suspect... How did that work out for them? I swear, if I didn't have such fond memories of old Bioware and old Bethesda it would be an absolute laugh riot watching these two fumbling and bumbling about as they compete for the "laughing stock of the industry" title. Instead it just makes me sad and wistful for days gone by. Itβs a delay not a cancellation.
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N6
All the things.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 5,622 Likes: 13,872
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All the things.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by seven on Apr 18, 2019 22:35:35 GMT
If you have read my comments on Anthem you would know I am giving it a chance. However, as someone who has fallen prey to their β¦ suspect communication patterns in the past I no longer trust what they SAY. Instead I'll take a look how the game is in a year's time. I fully expect most of the problems to be fixed in a year or two. Me and the only 2 other guys still playing by then will welcome you! At least then we'll have a full squad again. Oh man another timezone to coordinate for us all to be on together at the same time π
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 18, 2019 22:39:12 GMT
But people's feelings should be meaningless to truth or fact. I'll be honest, I'm not sure how anyone is "in the dark" at this point. So when Bioware showcased the Inquisition keep system (Crestwood), then quietly took it out of the game without telling anyone, gamers were completely aware what was going on, were they? We could pull the reaction threads from when DAI first shipped. I don't recall anyone actually being surprised by the keeps not working the way they expected them to, but since my PC at the time wasn't anything like good enough to run DAI, I didn't follow the early chatter too closely.
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Post by river82 on Apr 18, 2019 22:44:14 GMT
So when Bioware showcased the Inquisition keep system (Crestwood), then quietly took it out of the game without telling anyone, gamers were completely aware what was going on, were they? We could pull the reaction threads from when DAI first shipped. I don't recall anyone actually being surprised by the keeps not working the way they expected them to, but since my PC at the time wasn't anything like good enough to run DAI, I didn't follow the early chatter too closely. As someone who was defending Bioware when Inquisition released I can say for absolutely certainty that people were too busy blowing up about everything else. Including the "banter doesn't work, why the hell doesn't banter work, stop ignoring me Bioware fix mah banter!"
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