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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 0:29:17 GMT
So, an Andromeda sequel should be just fine with you As I've stated many times before, yes, by all means do. But I really, really, really do believe that people won't be immediately on board with an Andromeda 2 and more Ryder. You need to do something else, in order to - reinvigorate the franchise - deal with divide in the Bioware fanbase - silence clickbaiters And all I can say is that I can think of no scenario where an Andromeda 2 right now does away with all, if any, of these. In another thread, I had talked about how I was and still am a big fan of the X-Men. I don't believe you need anyone to tell you what they thought of X3: Last Stand. I don't even need to tell you how choked up I was, at the end of Days of Future Past or how teary eyed I was with the ending of Logan. I'm saying it can be done and Bioware can heal this divide, if they want to, if they try. It is not impossible. ... and I've been saying an OT sequel doesn't likely accomplish "dealing with the divide in the Bioware fan base" because people are so invested in their individual Shepards. A simple remaster of the OT (which doesn't change the endings or anything except make it perform better on the new systems) packaged with a re-release of an "improved" (i.e. more completed) Andromeda and an expansion/DLC that clearly shows a more "grown up" Ryder... all for an exceptional price... I believe has a shot at revitalizing the fanbase and bringing some fans back on board. They could, if they wish, add in some more alternate endings to ME3... but that is where that series should end regardless. People who don't want to reinvest in the whole package could be offered the new DLC separately. If that DLC does enough right, it can generate anticipation for a sequel.
Those who simply won't entertain the idea of a changing/growing Ryder will likely not be brought back with a Shepard who doesn't suit them. They, unfortunately, are likely lost whatever Bioware does.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 28, 2019 0:38:55 GMT
A simple remaster of the OT (which doesn't change the endings or anything except make it perform better on the new systems) packaged with a re-release of an "improved" (i.e. more completed) Andromeda and an expansion/DLC that clearly shows a more "grown up" Ryder... all for an exceptional price... I believe has a shot at revitalizing the fanbase and bringing some fans back on board. I disagree. This changes nothing, if anything, you are invalidating the "closure" provided to Andromeda through books and comic books, which should, according to your stance, "anger" the fanbase even more. The divided fanbase remains divided and will further shit talk next instalments. They could, if they wish, add in some more alternate endings to ME3... but that is where that series should end regardless. But that, yet again, isn't the problem of the community, with ME3. Those who simply won't entertain the idea of a changing/growing Ryder will likely not be brought back with a Shepard who doesn't suit them. They, unfortunately, are likely lost whatever Bioware does. Then Bioware is lost as well.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 1:11:29 GMT
A simple remaster of the OT (which doesn't change the endings or anything except make it perform better on the new systems) packaged with a re-release of an "improved" (i.e. more completed) Andromeda and an expansion/DLC that clearly shows a more "grown up" Ryder... all for an exceptional price... I believe has a shot at revitalizing the fanbase and bringing some fans back on board. I disagree. This changes nothing, if anything, you are invalidating the "closure" provided to Andromeda through books and comic books, which should, according to your stance, "anger" the fanbase even more. The divided fanbase remains divided and will further shit talk next instalments. They could, if they wish, add in some more alternate endings to ME3... but that is where that series should end regardless. But that, yet again, isn't the problem of the community, with ME3. Those who simply won't entertain the idea of a changing/growing Ryder will likely not be brought back with a Shepard who doesn't suit them. They, unfortunately, are likely lost whatever Bioware does. Then Bioware is lost as well. What am I invalidating when I haven't even suggested what such a DLC might be about? None of the books "ended" the Initiative adventure in Andromeda nor described what Ryder is like personality-wise even 10 years from the point in time ME:A ended. Conversely, all but one of the ME3 endings "ended" Shepard... any canon that causes Shepard to live again invalidates those endings... yet you argue that it doesn't. Again, sounds a little contradictory to me.
The "problem" with the ME3 "community" is the ME3 endings. We've been arguing over them for 7 years now, so don't tell me it isn't. My suggestion of adding additional alternate endings during a remaster of the OT, but still ending the OT with ME3 means that those who object to elements of the original selection can be offered additional choices without invalidating the original endings. Of course, the problem is that they want to "expunge" all but the destroy, Shepard-lives ending, including all of Andromeda,... and, despite what you said about being able to differentiate for individual tastes, will settle for nothing less... and they don't care about screwing over any of the other fans who happen to like the other endings and/or like Andromeda because they are unwilling to differentiate for individual tastes. So, basically, I think you're lying when you say you'd be OK with the Synthesis ending, as written, being declared canon.
... and Bioware may well be lost anyways. Staff morale has been reported as being very low. Without creative staff who can get excited about a project, Bioware can't function... in which case, this whole discussion is moot.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 28, 2019 1:19:45 GMT
The "problem" with the ME3 "community" is the ME3 endings The endings prohibit you from doing a number of things, not pertaining to the endings themselves. So you are only partly correct and you solution of basically doing an EC on top of the EC does not mitigate that. So until you educate yourself on it, through whichever myriad of essays available to you online, there is no point in continuing this discussion with you, on the issue.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 1:34:59 GMT
The "problem" with the ME3 "community" is the ME3 endings The endings prohibit you from doing a number of things, not pertaining to the endings themselves. So you are only partly correct and you solution of basically doing an EC on top of the EC does not mitigate that. So until you educate yourself on it, through whichever myriad of essays available to you online, there is no point in continuing this discussion with you, on the issue. How would an as yet unwritten alternate group of endings "prohibit" the player of anything? I haven't suggested what they might be or what different decisions already in the game they might be based on at all. I haven't specified that they be like the EC at all. Shepard could live in any number of them if Bioware wants to write such additional scenarios. The only stipulation is that Bioware would not continue the OT beyond that point... which is the only thing that would necessitate a canon ending of any type. As long as the OT itself ends with ME3, all possible endings remain valid. Individual players, of course, can always write their own fan fictions to carry the story beyond their chosen ending(s).
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 28, 2019 13:13:00 GMT
The endings prohibit you from doing a number of things, not pertaining to the endings themselves. So you are only partly correct and you solution of basically doing an EC on top of the EC does not mitigate that. So until you educate yourself on it, through whichever myriad of essays available to you online, there is no point in continuing this discussion with you, on the issue. How would an as yet unwritten alternate group of endings "prohibit" the player of anything? I haven't suggested what they might be or what different decisions already in the game they might be based on at all. I haven't specified that they be like the EC at all. Shepard could live in any number of them if Bioware wants to write such additional scenarios. The only stipulation is that Bioware would not continue the OT beyond that point... which is the only thing that would necessitate a canon ending of any type. As long as the OT itself ends with ME3, all possible endings remain valid. Individual players, of course, can always write their own fan fictions to carry the story beyond their chosen ending(s). You have committed a series of mistakes and contradictions throughout your argument. I had prepared a way, way too long post, quoting your own words throughout to directly prove my point and the only thing that is held me back from posting it, is that I realized something. You and I are making the same argument, for two different things. We want the same thing; our own private little wet dream of a ME game, if I be allowed this gross exaggeration. I respect that and I respect your sincerity about it, or the subterfuge behind it. However, this doesn't change the factors surrounding the development of one title over the other and how that will impact the final product, market reception and franchise viability. We know how your scenario ends, unfortunately and if you go with it right now, it would cost you more than you'd like and more than the people working at Bioware would like. So I would ask you to reconsider my proposition, or just say one last no, as there is no point arguing it further.
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Post by alanc9 on May 28, 2019 16:17:08 GMT
These threads always leave me with the suspicion that the set of viable future ME games is empty.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 28, 2019 16:36:23 GMT
These threads always leave me with the suspicion that the set of viable future ME games is empty. All things need to end at some point, as Shepard's did. But it needs to happen in a fulfilling enough way that doesn't leave the fanbase divided. At least not in the way that ME's is. And that goes for fans of both Andromeda and OT.
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Post by alanc9 on May 28, 2019 17:22:14 GMT
Too late for that, isn't it?
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 28, 2019 17:30:56 GMT
Too late for that, isn't it? As long as Bioware is still alive, it's doable. Nobody's going to pick up the IP after they're gone, though.
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Post by alanc9 on May 28, 2019 17:53:17 GMT
Too late to not leave the fanbase divided, I meant. We are divided already. You don't have a solution for that.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 28, 2019 17:55:33 GMT
You don't have a solution for that. Sure you do, address the problems that caused the divide.
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Post by alanc9 on May 28, 2019 17:57:05 GMT
We talked about this before, didn't we? I said you were naive for thinking that solutions for problems have to exist if you really want them to exist.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 28, 2019 17:59:36 GMT
I said you were naive for thinking that solutions for problems have to exist if you really want them to exist. I don't think making a video game is an unsolvable problem. We've had a few of them, so far, in the past 40 years.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 18:10:19 GMT
How would an as yet unwritten alternate group of endings "prohibit" the player of anything? I haven't suggested what they might be or what different decisions already in the game they might be based on at all. I haven't specified that they be like the EC at all. Shepard could live in any number of them if Bioware wants to write such additional scenarios. The only stipulation is that Bioware would not continue the OT beyond that point... which is the only thing that would necessitate a canon ending of any type. As long as the OT itself ends with ME3, all possible endings remain valid. Individual players, of course, can always write their own fan fictions to carry the story beyond their chosen ending(s). You have committed a series of mistakes and contradictions throughout your argument. I had prepared a way, way too long post, quoting your own words throughout to directly prove my point and the only thing that is held me back from posting it, is that I realized something. You and I are making the same argument, for two different things. We want the same thing; our own private little wet dream of a ME game, if I be allowed this gross exaggeration. I respect that and I respect your sincerity about it, or the subterfuge behind it. However, this doesn't change the factors surrounding the development of one title over the other and how that will impact the final product, market reception and franchise viability. We know how your scenario ends, unfortunately and if you go with it right now, it would cost you more than you'd like and more than the people working at Bioware would like. So I would ask you to reconsider my proposition, or just say one last no, as there is no point arguing it further. BS - Again, how does an unspecified and as yet unwritten alternate group of endings merely added to the game (without removing anything from the game) "prohibit" the player from anything?" You are the one who said that it does... so, explain your point rather than trying to divert this discussion into a personal attack.
While you're at it, answer my previous question - How does the addition of an unspecified and as yet unwritten DLC to Andromeda "invalidate" the "closure" in the books. Again, you are the one who has stated that it does... explain your point.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 28, 2019 18:24:35 GMT
Again, how does an unspecified alternate group of endings "prohibit" the player from anything?" You are the one who said that it does... so, explain your point rather than trying to divert this discussion into a personal attack. Well, like I said, there are a number of essays in written or video form online, that explain the problems with ME3, up to and including the endings, which adding two colors to the ending don't solve. Also, the new endings you propose that are so different from the others, will clash thematically, be obviously tacked on and will do nothing to mitigate the problems ME3 has, but only exploded by the sheer half ass effort of the endings. Sort of going back in time, thanks to an ending and experiencing a drastically different experience, or adding half a game worth of content post ending, it still strands you on square one. Which is why I said you need to first understand why people had a problem with ME3, in the first place. Unless you explore the other side, you can't understand the other side and this is a much bigger post that I can't get into because - I honestly no longer have the patience - I don't have the time - Other people have done a much, much better job at this - I will fail to cover all the bases - I cannot make it an entertaining read - You will call BS on me regardless But I can give you a few links, if you really want to understand the why, as soon as I get home, a little later.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 18:27:21 GMT
Again, how does an unspecified alternate group of endings "prohibit" the player from anything?" You are the one who said that it does... so, explain your point rather than trying to divert this discussion into a personal attack. Well, like I said, there are a number of essays in written or video form online, that explain the problems with ME3, up to and including the endings, which adding two colors to the ending don't solve. Also, the new endings you propose that are so different from the others, will clash thematically, be obviously tacked on and will do nothing to mitigate the problems ME3 has, but only exploded by the sheer half ass effort of the endings. Sort of going back in time, thanks to an ending and experiencing a drastically different experience, or adding half a game worth of content post ending, it still strands you on square one. Which is why I said you need to first understand why people had a problem with ME3, in the first place. Unless you explore the other side, you can't understand the other side and this is a much bigger post that I can't get into because - I honestly no longer have the patience - I don't have the time - Other people have done a much, much better job at this - I will fail to cover all the bases - I cannot make it an entertaining read - You will call BS on me regardless But I can give you a few links, if you really want to understand the why, as soon as I get home, a little later. Nope. BS. Explain YOUR point. I'm sure you can be brief if you really try. I'm clearly not looking for a dissertation on all the problems with ME3's endings. Explain how something that's not yet written can possibly "prohibit" players from anything? Then explain how something else, also yet unwritten, specifically invalidates the "closure" in the books.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 28, 2019 20:07:34 GMT
Nope. BS. Explain YOUR point My points mostly coincide with that of the general community. But if you want some bullet points - Kai Leng - Cerberus - Reaper motives - We fight or we die and other general brilliant writing lines like that - Reaper motives - Rannoch - Sidelining of ME1 characters (Ashley/Kaidan/Tali) - Stock photo - Sidelining of ME2 characters - Cameltoe bot - Banshee vaginas - N7 missions - CoD style enemy respawn system - Reapers getting less screen time in their own game, than the Transformers in their own movies - War point system - The Kid - Dream sequences - Journal system - Waypoint and quest markers - Inventory system - Weapon customization system - Absurd number of deaths, including several nobodies that you don't give two shits about, because you only just met them - Creepy eavesdrop Shepard - Reapers on the galaxy map - Dropped character development plots - Dropped story plots - Dropped lore related plots - Three games worth of wasted potential And for some more insight into ME3 I'm clearly not looking for a dissertation on all the problems with ME3's endings There are many problems, that do not pertain to the endings, such as mentioned above. You may not like them, you may not agree with them, but there they are. I am sure you have similar problems with Andromeda. Explain how something that's not yet written can possibly "prohibit" players from anything? Because the endings are endings and prevent you from visiting earlier states of the game, where the problems the community has with ME3 still persist and will not be addressed or resolved. Then explain how something else, also yet unwritten, specifically invalidates the "closure" in the books. By asking for DLC to address the plot points left open in the game, that were already addressed in books and graphic novels.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 20:14:17 GMT
Nope. BS. Explain YOUR point My points mostly coincide with that of the general community. But if you want some bullet points - Kai Leng - Cerberus - Reaper motives - We fight or we die and other general brilliant writing lines like that - Reaper motives - Rannoch - Sidelining of ME1 characters (Ashley/Kaidan/Tali) - Stock photo - Sidelining of ME2 characters - Cameltoe bot - Banshee vaginas - N7 missions - CoD style enemy respawn system - Reapers getting less screen time in their own game, than the Transformers in their own movies - War point system - The Kid - Dream sequences - Journal system - Waypoint and quest markers - Inventory system - Weapon customization system - Absurd number of deaths, including several nobodies that you don't give two shits about, because you only just met them - Creepy eavesdrop Shepard - Reapers on the galaxy map - Dropped character development plots - Dropped story plots - Dropped lore related plots - Three games worth of wasted potential And for some more insight into ME3 I'm clearly not looking for a dissertation on all the problems with ME3's endings There are many problems, that do not pertain to the endings, such as mentioned above. You may not like them, you may not agree with them, but there they are. I am sure you have similar problems with Andromeda. Explain how something that's not yet written can possibly "prohibit" players from anything? Because the endings are endings and prevent you from visiting earlier states of the game, where the problems the community has with ME3 still persist and will not be addressed or resolved. Then explain how something else, also yet unwritten, specifically invalidates the "closure" in the books. By asking for DLC to address the plot points left open in the game, that were already addressed in books and graphic novels. How does any of that explain YOUR point? How does the addition of new unspecified endings prohibit the players?
I did not ask for DLC to address specific plot points covered in the book (I did not ask for a Quarian DLC). I asked for an unspecified DLC. The books did not END the Initiative's adventure in Andromeda. They are still there and there are still numerous items not yet covered anywhere. A DLC can certainly be written that does not invalidate anything. It can certainly be written more easily than a sequel to ME3 can be written without invalidating most of the endings.
... and, according to your list, an ME3 sequel doesn't resolve any of the problems you list with the game anyways. So, why force it? It doesn't do you any good. It isn't giving "everyone" what they want. It seems it's closer to not giving anyone what they actually want... and does absolutely nothing towards closing the divide among fans.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 28, 2019 20:36:43 GMT
How does the addition of new unspecified endings prohibit the players? Let me rephrase since you choose to be obtuse. ME3 has a series of problems, culminating in the endings. The endings, as in the end state, PROHIBITS you from further playing the game and still keeps everything that is wrong with ME3 exactly as you left it. I did not ask for DLC to address plot points covered in the book (I did not ask for a Quarian DLC). Then the story is done. I asked for an unspecified DLC. You asked for a DLC that grows Ryder into Shepard. And isn't that an extremely high expectation DLC? One that you, argued, is the reason why anything MEOT related shouldn't be done? The books did not END the Initiative's adventure in Andromeda. EA did, Bioware did, the community did. A DLC can certainly be written that does not invalidate anything. Which not enough of the fanbase will return to. It can certainly be written more easily than a sequel to ME3 can be written without invalidate most of the endings. Opinion. ... and, according to your list, an ME3 sequel doesn't resolve any of the problems you list with the game anyways Does not need to be a sequel. So, why force it? It doesn't do you any good. It certainly seems to be doing harm, though. It isn't giving "everyone" what they want. It seems it's closer to not giving anyone what they actually want Opinion. and does absolutely nothing towards closing the divide among fans. Opinion.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 20:43:05 GMT
How does the addition of new unspecified endings prohibit the players? Let me rephrase since you choose to be obtuse. ME3 has a series of problems, culminating in the endings. The endings, as in the end state, PROHIBITS you from further playing the game and still keeps everything that is wrong with ME3 exactly as you left it. I did not ask for DLC to address plot points covered in the book (I did not ask for a Quarian DLC). Then the story is done. I asked for an unspecified DLC. You asked for a DLC that grows Ryder into Shepard. And isn't that an extremely high expectation DLC? One that you, argued, is the reason why anything MEOT related shouldn't be done? The books did not END the Initiative's adventure in Andromeda. EA did, Bioware did, the community did. A DLC can certainly be written that does not invalidate anything. Which not enough of the fanbase will return to. It can certainly be written more easily than a sequel to ME3 can be written without invalidate most of the endings. Opinion. ... and, according to your list, an ME3 sequel doesn't resolve any of the problems you list with the game anyways Does not need to be a sequel. So, why force it? It doesn't do you any good. It certainly seems to be doing harm, though. It isn't giving "everyone" what they want. It seems it's closer to not giving anyone what they actually want Opinion. and does absolutely nothing towards closing the divide among fans. Opinion. A sequel does harm... to those people who actually liked ME3. It invalidates all the Shepards created who died fighting the Reapers... which is what happened in most of the endings. It invalidates any decisions not selected to be carried forward into a sequel. It doesn't erase Kai Leng or the Reaper motives or change what the Reapers were, etc. You obviously didn't like ME3, so no sequel to it is going to help you like it any better. You're going to be sacrificing whoever your Shepard was for a new Bioware-created version of the same name. Since the Bioware authors are not the same as ME1, you likely won't like that Shepard any more than you like Ryder. So, how is making more people unhappier going to "solve" the divide among fans? You obviously just didn't like ME3... so move on to another franchise then.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 28, 2019 20:44:42 GMT
A sequel does harm... to those people who actually liked ME3. You didn't... so move on to another franchise then. The people who didn't like ME3 are doing Bioware harm. They are not moving. What do you do?
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2019 20:52:19 GMT
A sequel does harm... to those people who actually liked ME3. You didn't... so move on to another franchise then. The people who didn't like ME3 are doing Bioware harm. They are not moving. What do you do? There is no way to make them happy. Even IF Bioware rewrote ME3 completely, chances are they still wouldn't like it... only the details on the list would change. The reception Andromeda got even before it released proves this. You don't improve a business catering to those simply don't like your work... That only serves to drive away those who actually do... allowing those who don't like your work to do even further harm to your company.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 28, 2019 21:06:17 GMT
There is no way to make them happy. Even IF Bioware rewrote ME3 completely, chances are they still wouldn't like it... only the details on the list would change. The reception Andromeda got even before it released proves this. You don't improve a business catering to those simply don't like your work... That only serves to drive away those who actually do... allowing those who don't like your work to do even further harm to your company. One big opinion.
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ArabianIGoggles
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: d8lock
Posts: 310 Likes: 332
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ArabianIGoggles
310
August 2016
arabianigoggles
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
d8lock
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Post by ArabianIGoggles on May 28, 2019 23:39:08 GMT
Honestly, I have trouble perceiving the difference between 30 and more FPS -- I can do it, but I have to be intentionally looking for it. I find this hard to believe. If you can't see the difference between 30 and 60, then something is wrong.
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