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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 19, 2019 13:50:13 GMT
Let me know what you guys think! I know that this is already discussed but here's my rankings for the strongest companions. Some of them were too close to call and so I deemed them to be roughly equivalent in power. This is taking into account solely Lore and not gameplay. The closest IMO was the rogues, because all of them were very strong lore-wise.
I made Merrill and Anders equivalent due to both having spirits/Blood Magic helping them. Wynne is weaker than Vivienne, as the latter is a Grand Enchanter. I think that Morrigan is stronger than Merrill and Anders without spirits/Blood Magic but is almost made equal with spirits/Blood Magic. In fact I think Lore wise, Merrill is the only confirmed blood mage, and that gives her an edge over others.
I also rank based on if that person had a base skill, like Oghren's Berserker, and adds an additional power up like a Grey Warden training/power. Alistair was ranked lower because he was just a novice Templar when he joined the Wardens.
I couldn't decide who would win between Cole and Zevran, but it is clear that those 2 are the best assassins lore wise. Leliana and Varric come pretty close to archery, and if it wasn't for her bard skills I would have Leliana tied with Sebastian. Sera and Sebastian seem equal as of archery skill and the other rogues as well. Sigrun posed an interesting question but I think her main occupation as a Legionnaire + Warden was good but not good enough for her to compete with Varric/Leliana. Varric's edge is with Bianca's technological superiority while Leliana's edge is with her connections and skills as a bard. I also think being a Warden does not help as much with rogues than it does with Warriors due to strength being less of a factor.
Mage Companions:
1. Solas (Fen'Harel) 2. Morrigan (Witch of the Wilds + Flemeth Knowledge + maybe Flemeth's Powers)
3. Vengeance Anders (Vengeance + Grey Warden + Circle Training) 3. Merrill (Dalish Magic + Dalish First + Blood Magic)
4. Vivienne (Grand Enchanter of Circle/Most Powerful Circle Mage)
5. Wynne (Circle Mage + Faith Spirit) 5. Dorian (Very Talented Mage) 5. Velanna (Talented Dalish First + Grey Warden)
6. Bethany (Standard Circle Training or Grey Warden) 7. Sketch (Standard Mage but seems more clever than average) 8. Finn (Standard Mage)
Warrior Companions:
1. Fenris (Gladiator + Ability to phase in and out is too much of an advantage)
2. Shale (Warrior Soul+ Golem that is augmented with runic magic) 2. Cassandra (Seeker who took down dragons and saved the Divine)
3. Warden Oghren (Berserker + Grey Warden) 3. Warden Loghain (Skilled War Veteran + Grey Warden) 3. Thom Ranier (Won Grand Melee + Orlesian military training, and a pretty good champion) 3. Iron Bull (Very good combat veteran in Tevinter and the south)
4. Sten (He was lower than Iron Bull, and as Arishok still lost to Alistair) 4. Aveline (Guard captain and Feralden military training. Supercop.) 4. Alistair (Novice Templar + Grey Warden) 4. Justice (Grey Warden body with spirit abilities, but the undead factor makes him not as good as he could have been)
5. Runic Golem (Just a huge golem) 5. Carver
6. Dog (Malbari War Dog) 6. Ariane (Dalish Hunter) 6. Brogan Dace (Warrior Caste)
7. Tug (Mercenary Tough) 7. Silas Corthwaite (Standard Soldier)
Rogue Companions:
1. Zevran (Crow Assassin that potentially is the leader of the crows and/or evades all the crow assassins sent after him) 1. Cole (Spirit that can kill and be invisible to people)
2. Varric (Spymaster with a huge tech advantage in Bianca) 2. Leliana (Spymaster + Bard skills)
3. Sera (Probably tied with Sebastian as the best archer) 3. Sebastian (Tied with Sera as the best archer) 3. Nathaniel Howe (Ferelden army training + Grey Warden abilities) 3. Sigrun (Legion of the Dead + Carta experience, + Grey Warden blood gives her enough power to rise above her humble origins) 3. Isabella (The best duelist in the game lore wise) 3. Tallis (Qunari Superspy)
4. Jerrik Dace (Standard Rogue)
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Post by Catilina on Apr 19, 2019 14:25:17 GMT
Fen'Harel (1000 years old demigod – probably possessed, or something similar. Dreamer.) Anders/Justice Wynne/Faith Morrigan (she can follow Fen'Harel directly as a dragon, with the power of the well) Why would Vivienne so powerful? Talented and experienced, but she has a simple Circle training, like Bethany. About her rank: she's not a Grand Enchanter, just First Enchanter of Montsimmard. Fiona is the Grand Enchanter. Later Vivienne became a self-appointed Grand Enchanter, or, if Cassandra is the Divine, she got the Grand Enchanter position, but that just political position, nothing about her magical skills. (Irving was a mediocre mage, just opportunist enough to get the position.)And why would she stronger like Wynne? Wynne is an "abomination" – nice or not, the spirit inside her matter, just like her experiences. And Wynne –Just like Anders– is a special mage: the Spirit Healers are very rare. Dorian probably also stronger than Vivienne: I suppose the Tevinter Circles better in the training.
I'm not sure, but probably Velanna better as well. Elf trained Grey Warden...
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Why would Alistair better than Carver? They are the same age with same training. Alistair probably has advantage at first. Later not really. They probably have similar quality. Zevran would better than Isabela? Who knows...
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Anyway, very hard to ranking them, if they don't have some special ability/circumstances, like Anders/Justice, Wynne/Faith, Shale and Fenris, Cole...
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Apr 19, 2019 15:40:48 GMT
7. Sketch(Standard Mage but seems more clever than average) Remember that Sketch is also an ancient elf, or at least Leliana suspects he is. So that might affect his position.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 19, 2019 15:49:06 GMT
Good point about Morrigan's ability to turn into a Dragon. I had her at number 2 for that reason. My take with Vivienne is that she's a very skilled First Enchanter of the Circle, and at the end of DAI, she is the most powerful mage in the circle. That is how she was able to get the position of Grand Enchanter. You are right that it is a political position, but I never thought it was unrelated to skill. I always thought First Enchanter Irving was very powerful in DAO.
Regarding Wynne. Yes she is an abomination. But her abilities as an abomination is geared towards healing and are not offensive based. Wynne in the story mainly uses her powers to heal, whereas Vivienne' abilities in the lore have her doing both. Wynne does have offensive powers, it's just that the spirit possessing her seems to augment her healing ones mainly, and so it doesn't give her an edge offensive-wise.
Wynne might be close to Vivienne though. I just saw her not being able to get Grand Enchanter as a sign of Wynne not being able to outmaneuver Vivienne in terms of being a mage. Politics in the circle probably is related to how strong the mage is. Fiona for example was easily the Grand Enchanter because Vivienne couldn't take it away from her; likely because everyone saw Fiona was a better mage than Vivienne (including Vivienne herself). Being able to heal the Grey Warden Blight would earn anyone's respect. For those reasons, I'm not sure Wynne can win against Vivienne in a matchup.
Regarding Dorian, I think Grand Enchanter Vivienne would have to be a little more skilled than Dorian (who although is very talented, never was a Magister).
I had Alistair above Carver, because Alistair would always have a slight edge. If it was Templar Carver, I think Alistair's Grey Warden + Templar training would give him the edge. If it was Grey Warden Carver, then Alistair still has the edge of having Templar training.
I have Zevran over Isabella only because I think if they ever were to match up, Isabella would win in a "fair fight" but Zevran would easily assassinate her. And being rogues, we have to take into account their unconventional skills and stealth skills.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 19, 2019 15:51:16 GMT
7. Sketch(Standard Mage but seems more clever than average) Remember that Sketch is also an ancient elf, or at least Leliana suspects he is. So that might affect his position. Haha I always thought that was just trolling.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 19, 2019 16:00:57 GMT
Good point about Morrigan's ability to turn into a Dragon. I had her at number 2 for that reason. My take with Vivienne is that she's a very skilled First Enchanter of the Circle, and at the end of DAI, she is the most powerful mage in the circle. That is how she was able to get the position of Grand Enchanter. You are right that it is a political position, but I never thought it was unrelated to skill. I always thought Grand Enchanter Irving was very powerful in DAO.
Regarding Wynne. Yes she is an abomination. But her abilities as an abomination is geared towards healing and are not offensive based. Wynne in the story mainly uses her powers to heal, whereas Vivienne' abilities in the lore have her doing both. Wynne does have offensive powers, it's just that the spirit possessing her seems to augment her healing ones mainly, and so it doesn't give her an edge offensive-wise.
Wynne might be close to Vivienne though. I just saw her not being able to get Grand Enchanter as a sign of Wynne not being able to outmaneuver Vivienne in terms of being a mage. Politics in the circle probably is related to how strong the mage is. Fiona for example was easily the Grand Enchanter because Vivienne couldn't take it away from her; likely because everyone saw Fiona was a better mage than Vivienne (including Vivienne herself). Being able to heal the Grey Warden Blight would earn anyone's respect. For those reasons, I'm not sure Wynne can win against Vivienne in a matchup.
Regarding Dorian, I think Grand Enchanter Vivienne would have to be a little more skilled than Dorian (who although is very talented, never was a Magister).
I had Alistair above Carver, because Alistair would always have a slight edge. If it was Templar Carver, I think Alistair's Grey Warden + Templar training would give him the edge. If it was Grey Warden Carver, then Alistair still has the edge of having Templar training.
I have Zevran over Isabella only because I think if they ever were to match up, Isabella would win in a "fair fight" but Zevran would easily assassinate her. And being rogues, we have to take into account their unconventional skills and stealth skills. Wynne is incredibly strong mage – she just doesn't want political power, she wants serve. And canonically, the most feared mages are the Spirit Healers, because they able to survive and able to protect the others (and always suspicious their relationship with the Fade-spirits... – especially because most of Andrastian people think about them as demons...)
I didn't say, that Vivienne's not strong, but I think, Wynne's stronger.
Carver has Templar skills like Alistair, even if he's a Grey Warden. The Greys have Templars.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 19, 2019 16:04:19 GMT
Very true, there is a good case that Wynne would win because Faith would revive her while Vivienne would still be weakened. Very close to call. Wynne tried to get political power, but failed because Fiona outmaneuvered her. Wynne never even made First Enchanter, she was at most a Senior Enchanter. That's why I see it as Wynne not being renown enough to sway other mages. But Faith reviving Wynne is definitely an edge. Carver doesn't get Templar training if he is a Grey Warden.
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Post by Catilina on Apr 19, 2019 17:14:42 GMT
Very true, there is a good case that Wynne would win because Faith would revive her while Vivienne would still be weakened. Very close to call. Wynne tried to get political power, but failed because Fiona outmaneuvered her. Wynne never even made First Enchanter. That's why I see it as Wynne not being renown enough to sway other mages. But Faith reviving Wynne is definitely an edge. Carver doesn't get Templar training if he is a Grey Warden. Carver has Templar talent – and it's not really unbelievable. Alistair gave his knowledge to the Warden, why wouldn't any other ex-Templar? Not every Templar feels s/he should keep the Order's secret. And what more than one people know, this knowledge not a secret anymore. The Wardens/mercenaries have very mixed type people – criminals, outlaws, adventurers, and ofc, wannabe and true heroes... everyone of them has a past, I'm sure there are some Templars as well. The Templar skills can be useful, wasted opportunity, if they don't learn tose... (True, the lyrium addiction can be hard – but we don't know, how much lyrium needs for the abilities exactly.)
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Post by copper on Apr 19, 2019 17:59:20 GMT
I think as far as the mage category goes I'd agree with Catilina that in terms of magical power Wynne is stronger than Vivienne on the basis of being a spirit healer with the Faith spirit assisting her. Vivienne's success to me seemed more based on her being more politically savvy than most mages in the series we've met so far. I'd probably rate her similar to Dorian and Bethany.
I think Aveline would be higher in the warrior category as well. I think she's probably close to Cassandra based on in game banter. Alistair should also probably be higher than Sten since he did beat him in combat in canon.
Rogues are the toughest category since they're not going to fight fair. I'd probably increase Isabela's ranking and lower Varric's though. Varric's edge is based on him using Bianca; give him any other crossbow and he's no better than any other archer. Isabela on the other hand is considered to be a highly skilled duelist, often winning fights against multiple opponents at a time.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 19, 2019 18:09:18 GMT
Very true, there is a good case that Wynne would win because Faith would revive her while Vivienne would still be weakened. Very close to call. Wynne tried to get political power, but failed because Fiona outmaneuvered her. Wynne never even made First Enchanter. That's why I see it as Wynne not being renown enough to sway other mages. But Faith reviving Wynne is definitely an edge. Carver doesn't get Templar training if he is a Grey Warden. Carver has Templar talent – and it's not really unbelievable. Alistair gave his knowledge to the Warden, why wouldn't any other ex-Templar? Not every Templar feels s/he should keep the Order's secret. And what more than one people know, this knowledge not a secret anymore. The Wardens/mercenaries have very mixed type people – criminals, outlaws, adventurers, and ofc, wannabe and true heroes... everyone of them has a past, I'm sure there are some Templars as well. The Templar skills can be useful, wasted opportunity, if they don't learn tose... (True, the lyrium addiction can be hard – but we don't know, how much lyrium needs for the abilities exactly.) Fair point. But as far as we know, Grey Warden Carver does not get Templar training. Maybe it could theoretically happen off screen. But there isn't any sign of that.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 19, 2019 18:21:52 GMT
I think as far as the mage category goes I'd agree with Catilina that in terms of magical power Wynne is stronger than Vivienne on the basis of being a spirit healer with the Faith spirit assisting her. Vivienne's success to me seemed more based on her being more politically savvy than most mages in the series we've met so far. I'd probably rate her similar to Dorian and Bethany. I think Aveline would be higher in the warrior category as well. I think she's probably close to Cassandra based on in game banter. Alistair should also probably be higher than Sten since he did beat him in combat in canon. Rogues are the toughest category since they're not going to fight fair. I'd probably increase Isabela's ranking and lower Varric's though. Varric's edge is based on him using Bianca; give him any other crossbow and he's no better than any other archer. Isabela on the other hand is considered to be a highly skilled duelist, often winning fights against multiple opponents at a time. My take on it is that Wynne is a Senior Circle Mage, and without Faith, would be only just more powerful than Bethany. With Faith however, the game changes. Faith can revive Wynne, but it cannot revive her indefinitely and in fact taxes Wynne every time it does heal. The Lore gives us numerous examples of Vivienne being a powerful mage. The Circle First Enchanters are all very powerful, as seen in DAII and arguably DAO. To reach that level of seniority is not just political but related to skill, as you need to be able to teach people who you outrank. The fact that Fiona was one of the most powerful mages in the lore further illustrates why I see things the way I do. Vivienne is indeed shrewd but I don't think she would be capable of getting to First and then Grand Enchanter by simply being a seasoned circle mage. Vivienne and other NPCs also mention that Vivienne is very powerful. Here is a summary of Vivienne's resume: 1. Vivienne became the youngest full-fledged mage in Circle history. 2. Vivienne impressed Celene and was made court enchanter after only 1 single meeting 3. Vivienne earned the nick name Lady of Iron after getting elevated to First Enchanter at such a young age it caused a scandal. 4. She instantly became a de facto leader of the Loyalists during the rebellion. All this shows that Vivienne is a super strong mage and getting to First Enchanter is not just political savvy but related to skill. And I do think Wynne might beat her if Faith revives her and Vivienne is weak. I just don't see Wynne packing enough punch to really put Vivienne out, in spite of her revivals. I could be wrong that I fully admit. Good point on Alistair and Sten haha. I should change that. Why do you think Aveline is closer to Cassandra?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 19, 2019 19:11:54 GMT
The thing is do you base this solely on what they can do in game when your companion or do you take into account what theoretically they ought to be able to do and what they have been shown to do outside the game?
With regard to the mages:
Dorian has been trained as the sole apprentice of a Tevinter Magister who knew how to manipulate time. Dorian knew enough that he could figure out how to reverse the spell that took us into the future. Even without that, he is trained as a Necromancer, which in DAI comes with significant benefits, including having a spirit fight for you if you are knocked out. So that puts him on a similar level to Wynne.
Vivienne is trained as a Knight Enchanter. That is an incredibly powerful specialism. My PC Knight Enchanter could take down a dragon single handed. That said, I think the reason she advanced so quickly in the Circles and as Court Enchanter is because she knew how to use the game to her advantage. Historically this has been shown to be important to the advancement of mages in the Orlesian Circles. Whilst Vivienne wasn't noble by birth, she became mistress to a powerful and influential Orlesian noble at young age and this likely accounted for her rapid rise thereafter rather than her natural magical ability.
Fiona bagged the position of Grand Enchanter when she did because at that time her politics were more popular than those of Vivienne. The mages were pushing for greater freedoms and Fiona promised she would give this to them. Again, this had nothing to do with her level of magical ability, so the fact that she was Grand Enchanter and Wynne did not attempt to claim that position is that the latter was not ambitious for political power. Even so, she managed to hedge off a vote for independence that Fiona had proposed the year before the events of Asunder. In that book Wynne was shown to have considerable power owing to her indwelling spirit but we will never know quite how much because she never used it offensively outside of the Fade.
Anders and Wynne both had the ability to be brought back from death by a spirit, although it would seem at the end of DA2 that Justice specifically did not exercise this ability if we choose to execute Anders because they both seemed to feel that was "justice" for what he did. How much additional power Justice gave Anders is debatable. Back in Awakening he was already a spirit healer. Anders had the handicap of being a Grey Warden where Corypheus was concerned, which was odd really considering I would have thought Justice ought to have been able to overcome the compulsion placed on him.
With regard to the advantage of having blood magic places on power, that depends on whether the mage is willing to use specific blood magic spells rather than simply as a source of additional mana. If the mage is only low level than the boost to mana that the blood magic gives may still not place them on the same level as a naturally more gifted mage. Take Jowan for example. As for Merrill, some of the most powerful blood magic spells seemed to be missing from her repertoire so I am not sure that I would place her above someone like Dorian who has great natural ability plus Necromancy.
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Post by copper on Apr 19, 2019 19:34:46 GMT
Here is a summary of Vivienne's resume: 1. Vivienne became the youngest full-fledged mage in Circle history. 2. Vivienne impressed Celene and was made court enchanter after only 1 single meeting 3. Vivienne earned the nick name Lady of Iron after getting elevated to First Enchanter at such a young age it caused a scandal. 4. She instantly became a de facto leader of the Loyalists during the rebellion. Why do you think Aveline is closer to Cassandra? Regarding Vivienne, I agree that point 1 shows she has skill. The others, however, can all be attributed to her social and political skills. I'm certainly not disagreeing that Vivienne is skilled with the magical power she has. But I suppose I'm thinking this through in terms of raw power, rather than how each mage wields their power, which is why I think Wynne is more powerful than Vivienne even though Wynne is more of a healer. Concerning Aveline, I'm going more on in game banter than anything. Though now that I'm looking for specific files, this could be more about her being a competent woman warrior rather than a competent warrior in general. For now I'll take back my thought that she should be higher unless I find something more concrete.
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Post by Sokemis on Apr 19, 2019 23:03:28 GMT
Regarding Dorian, I think Grand Enchanter Vivienne would have to be a little more skilled than Dorian (who although is very talented, never was a Magister). Isn't Magister more of a political position than a "magical ranked" one - kind of like a Senator. And Dorian does inherited his father's seat in the Magisterium (and with it title of Magister) after his father is assassinated. I think it was more of Dorian's refusal to "play by the status quo", rather than his level of magical ability, that would have probably prevented him from being made a Magister (without inheriting the position). Dorian has been trained as the sole apprentice of a Tevinter Magister who knew how to manipulate time. Dorian knew enough that he could figure out how to reverse the spell that took us into the future. He's not only Alexius's apprentice, but Dorian helped develop said time magic. As far as Vivienne/Wynne go - I'm not sure who would be the stronger mage. I have no doubt that Vivienne's political connections/savvy helped her in advancing as far as she did as quick as she did position-wise, but there is also no denying that she is very powerful mage in her own right. I think Wynne is a powerful mage as well, but less apt to show it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 23:23:27 GMT
I'd place Merrill much lower and Dorian much higher.
For Merrill, the difficult tasks are performed by outside influence like demons, not her natural ability, the price of which she doesn't even understand.
Dorian is extremely intuitive with magic. He has shown the ability to improvise on the spot and lightening reactions to sudden circumstances. He pretty much saves the entire world by creating a loophole and squeezing himself and Inky through it on a rebound from a huge spell that was aimed to erase them from existence and came up with it in half a second reaction.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 20, 2019 1:51:35 GMT
I'd place Merrill much lower and Dorian much higher. For Merrill, the difficult tasks are performed by outside influence like demons, not her natural ability, the price of which she doesn't even understand. Dorian is extremely intuitive with magic. He has shown the ability to improvise on the spot and lightening reactions to sudden circumstances. He pretty much saves the entire world by creating a loophole and squeezing himself and Inky through it on a rebound from a huge spell that was aimed to erase them from existence and came up with it in half a second reaction. The reason I picked Merrill is because by DAI she improved a lot. She repaired her Eluvian, for starters. And she has had ample time to master Blood Magic, unlike Jowan who just started. Dorian's time magic was innovative and is powerful. But Time Magic is not superior to all other sorts of magic. It is the fact that Merrill can draw on expert Blood Magic alongside her talents as a Dalish First (who would have been a Keeper), that I think she would win. But yeah, it is fairly close. Blood Magic isn't forbidden in Tevinter. So Dorian would have access to it, but Dorian chooses not to be a blood mage. Why do you think his Time Magic is stronger than Merrill's Blood Magic and Dalish Keeper/First skills put together?
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 20, 2019 1:55:54 GMT
Regarding Dorian, I think Grand Enchanter Vivienne would have to be a little more skilled than Dorian (who although is very talented, never was a Magister). Isn't Magister more of a political position than a "magical ranked" one - kind of like a Senator. And Dorian does inherited his father's seat in the Magisterium (and with it title of Magister) after his father is assassinated. I think it was more of Dorian's refusal to "play by the status quo", rather than his level of magical ability, that would have probably prevented him from being made a Magister (without inheriting the position). Dorian has been trained as the sole apprentice of a Tevinter Magister who knew how to manipulate time. Dorian knew enough that he could figure out how to reverse the spell that took us into the future. He's not only Alexius's apprentice, but Dorian helped develop said time magic. As far as Vivienne/Wynne go - I'm not sure who would be the stronger mage. I have no doubt that Vivienne's political connections/savvy helped her in advancing as far as she did as quick as she did position-wise, but there is also no denying that she is very powerful mage in her own right. I think Wynne is a powerful mage as well, but less apt to show it. Magister, like Grand Enchanter, is both a political and skill based position. Basically, whoever can be Magister (and keep being Magister), is a very powerful mage. We all know Tevinter Mages gun down each other the first chance they get. So any Magister left standing is a freaking good mage. Political intrigue only gets you so far, you need to eventually deliver on your posturing. Dorian never becomes a Magister. He becomes an ambassador. So we would never know if Dorian had what it takes to survive the constant rivalries in the Magisterium. I understand Time Magic is a huge deal, but why do you think Dorian being an expert at it would mean he is more powerful than Vivienne, who is also a highly regarded expert in the arcane?
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 20, 2019 2:00:58 GMT
Here is a summary of Vivienne's resume: 1. Vivienne became the youngest full-fledged mage in Circle history. 2. Vivienne impressed Celene and was made court enchanter after only 1 single meeting 3. Vivienne earned the nick name Lady of Iron after getting elevated to First Enchanter at such a young age it caused a scandal. 4. She instantly became a de facto leader of the Loyalists during the rebellion. Why do you think Aveline is closer to Cassandra? Regarding Vivienne, I agree that point 1 shows she has skill. The others, however, can all be attributed to her social and political skills. I'm certainly not disagreeing that Vivienne is skilled with the magical power she has. But I suppose I'm thinking this through in terms of raw power, rather than how each mage wields their power, which is why I think Wynne is more powerful than Vivienne even though Wynne is more of a healer. Concerning Aveline, I'm going more on in game banter than anything. Though now that I'm looking for specific files, this could be more about her being a competent woman warrior rather than a competent warrior in general. For now I'll take back my thought that she should be higher unless I find something more concrete. Fair enough. Although keep in mind the only other Court Enchanter we know of is...Morrigan. Vivienne being a Court Enchanter is a testament to the fact that she must have done something magical to impress Celene. Orlais is filled with charming people, and I'm sure Celene was looking for a court enchanter that wowed her. Regarding Raw Power, I agree. I think if Wynne were to channel her powers offensively, she would be a better contender. But my issue is that without Faith, I don't think Wynne is that powerful to begin with. Faith does give her a lot of raw power though and if we are going by Raw Power as opposed to how Vivienne/Wynne wields their power, I would think Wynne has more potential power than Vivienne. I think Vivienne has more knowledge of magic and how to use it tactically than Wynne though.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 20, 2019 2:12:06 GMT
The thing is do you base this solely on what they can do in game when your companion or do you take into account what theoretically they ought to be able to do and what they have been shown to do outside the game? With regard to the mages: Dorian has been trained as the sole apprentice of a Tevinter Magister who knew how to manipulate time. Dorian knew enough that he could figure out how to reverse the spell that took us into the future. Even without that, he is trained as a Necromancer, which in DAI comes with significant benefits, including having a spirit fight for you if you are knocked out. So that puts him on a similar level to Wynne. Vivienne is trained as a Knight Enchanter. That is an incredibly powerful specialism. My PC Knight Enchanter could take down a dragon single handed. That said, I think the reason she advanced so quickly in the Circles and as Court Enchanter is because she knew how to use the game to her advantage. Historically this has been shown to be important to the advancement of mages in the Orlesian Circles. Whilst Vivienne wasn't noble by birth, she became mistress to a powerful and influential Orlesian noble at young age and this likely accounted for her rapid rise thereafter rather than her natural magical ability. Fiona bagged the position of Grand Enchanter when she did because at that time her politics were more popular than those of Vivienne. The mages were pushing for greater freedoms and Fiona promised she would give this to them. Again, this had nothing to do with her level of magical ability, so the fact that she was Grand Enchanter and Wynne did not attempt to claim that position is that the latter was not ambitious for political power. Even so, she managed to hedge off a vote for independence that Fiona had proposed the year before the events of Asunder. In that book Wynne was shown to have considerable power owing to her indwelling spirit but we will never know quite how much because she never used it offensively outside of the Fade. Anders and Wynne both had the ability to be brought back from death by a spirit, although it would seem at the end of DA2 that Justice specifically did not exercise this ability if we choose to execute Anders because they both seemed to feel that was "justice" for what he did. How much additional power Justice gave Anders is debatable. Back in Awakening he was already a spirit healer. Anders had the handicap of being a Grey Warden where Corypheus was concerned, which was odd really considering I would have thought Justice ought to have been able to overcome the compulsion placed on him. With regard to the advantage of having blood magic places on power, that depends on whether the mage is willing to use specific blood magic spells rather than simply as a source of additional mana. If the mage is only low level than the boost to mana that the blood magic gives may still not place them on the same level as a naturally more gifted mage. Take Jowan for example. As for Merrill, some of the most powerful blood magic spells seemed to be missing from her repertoire so I am not sure that I would place her above someone like Dorian who has great natural ability plus Necromancy. I mean, gameplay bleeds into Lore (Dorian's Time Magic or Vivienne's Knight Enchanter both are referenced by them). I mainly focus on Lore though. That was how I ranked it. Dorian's Lore centers around him being a Time Mage, whereas Vivienne's centers around her being a Grandmaster of Circle Magic, a broader field than Dorian's narrow specialization. That's why I think she's more powerful. Vivienne is good at the game. But being good at the game does not in and of itself elevate one to Grand Enchanter. Fiona and Vivienne were both very strong mages, alongside their savvy at the game. I agree though Wynne never showed what exactly was her limits with Faith possessing her. But perhaps that is a factor to consider? As far as we know, Wynne is not a powerful mage in and of herself without Faith. And I am certain without Faith, Wynne is no match for Vivienne or Fiona. With Faith, the odds tip back but I'm not sure how back. Raw potential goes to Wynne, but actual application may go to Vivienne. I agree that Blood Magic isn't an advantage by itself, and Jowan is a good example of a novice blood mage being easily swept aside. Merrill though is not a novice at DAI. She repaired the Eluvian (not sure if Morrigan can even do that). She also is a very strong Dalish First, being able to stave off Demons and other dangers. And added to the fact that she has had years by now to full augment her Blood Magic (which was already at expert level in DAII), means that Blood Magic does become an edge when comparing Merrill to everyone else. That's how I see it anyway. Why do you think Merrill is not adept at Blood Magic for it to matter?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2019 2:13:34 GMT
The reason I picked Merrill is because by DAI she improved a lot. She repaired her Eluvian, for starters. And she has had ample time to master Blood Magic, unlike Jowan who just started. Dorian's time magic was innovative and is powerful. But Time Magic is not superior to all other sorts of magic. It is the fact that Merrill can draw on expert Blood Magic alongside her talents as a Dalish First (who would have been a Keeper), that I think she would win. I don't think one magic is more powerful than other magic. It's all about how well any mage is capable of using their craft plus inborn power and talent. Repairing Eluvian involved other craft items like rare artifacts that enhance skill. Why do you think she asked from a pointy thing from Marethari? She can't do it without it or without some other thingy. Merrill relies on secondary items, demons, and years of research to get her job done rather than her personal power. She even confessed openly, 'I didn't have enough power to repair it so I asked a nice demon.' She didn't have her own raw power to get it done. In my opinion improvising displays the highest level of skill. Some people spend ten years studying how to light a torch and set up their own robe on fire anyway. Dorian was capable of inventing a new spell in a flash to counter a massive spell flying in his face. That's not even a good job or amazing job, that's miracle work. Thinking you're controlling a demon while it's controlling you is not doing a good job with magic. When it comes to Merrill her magic is immature. She's fumbling through it. She's learning a branch on her own that her clan didn't teach and dubbed as taboo. Dorian's skill is highly mature and polished to perfection. He was born in society that specializes and breathes magic and he was encouraged by his social position to learn it from birth. His actions are very much professional and with self-reflection and self-realization. He knows what he's doing and knows how to take best advantage of it. Unlike Merrill, he knows how to deal with demon enough to be cynical about them. He tells a tale how he had a nice cup of tea with a demon until it tried to possess him, then, it didn't go so well for the demon. That was a highly controlled situation by him much unlike Merrill who let's herself be suckered.
Dorian had all the cards laid out right for him from birth. He was born naturally powerful. He has an instinctive understanding of magic. He was born into a family that intentionally for generations bred powerful mages with powerful mages to have power. He was born into society that taught him exactly how to use his skills and how to take best advantage of them. On top of that he has a naturally inquisitive mind. He went out of the box and picked up other skills along the way such as time magic. That's a very powerful individual and with a lot of self-awareness and many skills for his young age.
If Merrill didn't have Marethari and Hawke to cover for her blood magic mistakes and use, that demon most likely would have eaten her, her clan and then ran off to eat a street or two in Kirkwall until the Templars would gallivant in to stab it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2019 2:56:20 GMT
Dorian never becomes a Magister. He becomes an ambassador. So we would never know if Dorian had what it takes to survive the constant rivalries in the Magisterium. Excuse me if I'm getting my facts mixed up with fanfiction, but doesn't Dorian lead anti-traditionalist movement and serves in the Magisterium opposition when we meet him in Tresspasser? I think you either need to be extremely crazy or extremely powerful since Tevinter doesn't want any changes to its thousand year old system to be in the opposition, especially if that opposition is actually getting heard. The lawful authorities would send six assassins per day to silence you. I'm pretty sure since Dorian is alive it's indicative that he in fact is well suited to survive the hostile environment.
I'm pretty sure he doesn't become one because he doesn't want to, not because he wasn't able to. He never wanted to continue his father's work. It was an obligation.
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Post by Sokemis on Apr 20, 2019 3:12:13 GMT
Excuse me if I'm getting my facts mixed up with fanfiction, but doesn't Dorian lead anti-traditionalist movement and serves in the Magisterium opposition when we meet him in Tresspasser? He's not a Magister yet in Trespasser - his father is killed during that time and Dorian is going back at the end of it take his seat in the Magisterium. So he does become a Magister, just off-screen. He joins with Magister Maevaris in pushing for reforms within Tevinter.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2019 3:17:15 GMT
He's not a Magister yet in Trespasser - his father is killed during that time and Dorian is going back at the end of it take his seat in the Magisterium. So he does become a Magister, just off-screen. He joins with Magister Maevaris in pushing for reforms within Tevinter. Ah gocha. Thank you for clarifying. It is my understanding though that Dorian is a reformist. He had said periodically that he isn't happy with what's going on in his homeland, but loves it enough to go back to it. I doubt he's just going to play a yes man to Magisterium and be a perfect token Minrathos citizen. He's going to push for change and that change will be dangerous to advocate.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 20, 2019 6:54:48 GMT
Merrill though is not a novice at DAI. She repaired the Eluvian (not sure if Morrigan can even do that). How do you know this? At the end of DA2 she still had not repaired the eluvian. In fact in some world states she will have destroyed it. People say they see her eluvian in the Crossroads and it is working. How do they know it is working on the Thedas side? Even if it is working, how do you know that someone else wasn't responsible for fixing it? Or that simply reactivating the network did so? I don't recall any codex in game that confirmed Merrill had been successful in repairing it. Repairing the eluvian of itself is no an indication of natural magical ability. It was something she admitted was beyond her power without blood magic. However, she admitted that she used blood magic because it was the only source of additional energy available to her as she did not have the money to purchase large amounts of lyrium. The knowledge of how to repair it came from the demon. I think you either need to be extremely crazy or extremely powerful since Tevinter doesn't want any changes to its thousand year old system to be in the opposition, especially if that opposition is actually getting heard. This is relevant to the argument about Dorian. In Tevinter your survival in the political system does depend on you being a powerful mage. The reason so many mages do turn to blood magic (specific spells not just for a power source) is to stay ahead of the opposition. Urian, the Black Divine, told Lambert that he was naïve to consider otherwise. Dorian's greatest fear is temptation and he knows the perils turning to blood magic in order to boost his power. What he and Maevaris are trying to do is prove that you do not need blood magic to succeed. Maervaris survived because she did have considerable magical ability and the financial clout that came from her husband's estate. Dorian managed to survive on his own when he first came to the south and was not afraid to challenge the status quo when he returned north. I doubt those enthusiastic young Magisters would have joined the Lucerni unless they respected his natural ability as well as his rhetoric. Bear in mind that if fighting corruption does extend to opposing the use of blood magic, then Dorian and Co will be taking on no less an individual than the Black Divine. Alexius and Dorian's magical ability is not just founded on time magic. Alexius was already considered an authority on the limits to which magic could be pushed long before he took on Dorian as his apprentice. His own father ceded his seat on the Magisterium to him in order to encourage him to be more political and use his magic for practical purposes but Alexius still preferred to concentrate on magical theory. Whilst his wife took on many apprentices, Alexius only took one, Dorian, because he recognised he did have talent worth nurturing and spending his time on. Dorian's specialism is Necromancy and that does give the user considerable power, in particular to manipulate spirits and spiritual energy. However, his original education in the Circles and then later as Alexius' apprentice mean he also has a grounding in all forms of magic and his knowledge of such would naturally be greater than those in the south because there were no religious restrictions on magical research. So Dorian has both the theoretical knowledge and the natural ability.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 20, 2019 7:19:52 GMT
On the subject of the relative merits of warriors, I think that Justice should have been placed higher on the list as he isn't just a spirit occupying a body and using the abilities that person had when alive but is a Spirit Warrior in his own right. This specialism does give the individual certain unique advantages, even if these were not sufficiently explored in the game. If being a spirit makes Cole a superior rogue to the majority of ordinary mortals, then being a spirit should make Justice a superior warrior.
Thus I would place Justice above everyone bar Fenris, who I agree is the most powerful of our warrior companions, and possibly Cassandra.
I would not place Cassandra so highly on the basis of her earlier history because she admits she couldn't have done it without the assistance of others. Nor would I put her there on the basis of the abilities she is given in game, because basically they just made her a Templar. If they had given her some unique Seeker abilities, such as she described to the PC, then that would place her above the rest. Seekers are immune to blood magic mind spells and possession. This is a considerable advantage in the world of Thedas. However, she claims that the most powerful Seekers are also capable of setting the lyrium aflame in the blood of their opponent, which is particularly lethal against mages who have a greater concentration in their blood but would also account for why they were so feared by Templars. In fact the abilities of Seekers would seem to replicate several high level blood magic spells. This makes sense considering that lyrium is in fact the blood of titans, so manipulating lyrium in the way a Seeker does is blood magic. Having this control over lyrium in the blood might actually mean a top level Seeker might be one of the few individuals capable of having a chance against Solas. Now Cassandra never claimed to be able to do this herself but the fact she knew about it meant she had the potential to be able to do so. So this is why she would rank highly on my list.
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