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Post by goishen on May 3, 2019 18:09:11 GMT
The problem is that we're getting what we've gotten. A blob of a mess of character homogenization. Going back to ME2, that was what they wanted all along, except they screwed up by including classes.
It was one of their greatest fuckups. But one they made nonetheless.
BioWare has since course corrected, but I'm simply telling them not to.
Was that really so hard to grasp?
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Post by AnDromedary on May 3, 2019 18:32:03 GMT
The problem is that we're getting what we've gotten. A blob of a mess of character homogenization. Going back to ME2, that was what they wanted all along, except they screwed up by including classes. It was one of their greatest fuckups. But one they made nonetheless. BioWare has since course corrected, but I'm simply telling them not to. Was that really so hard to grasp? Yes, it is. What do you mean by "character homogenization"? Do you mean that classes felt the same? If so, I disagree. Classes were much more diverse in ME2/3 than ME1 IMO. Also, in that case why would the opportunity to change classes (again, which you don't have to do) promote that? Please clarify.
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Post by goishen on May 3, 2019 19:02:02 GMT
Okay, you know the timeline, correct? ME1, ME2, ME3, and then came ME:A? Well, with ME:A came a homogenization unseen before in all of ME's history. This was because they had the ability to wipe away their past fuckups. Classes being one of them.
Whew, good grief.
Also, you can see that this was their plan all along, going back to ME2, when they decided that hey, now a soldier can become whatever the fuck you want them to be. Same way with ME3. It's a natural progression. If you fuck up in one game and are locked into that specific set of circumstances, you continue the fuckup until you're not. In programming language this would a "feature", not a bug. Note the quotation marks.
With ME:A, they weren't.
Don't worry about it, they won't listen to what I've gotta say anyway. Wait until the next game comes out and the classes are homogenized even more so than ME:A. Yah, that'll sell well.
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Post by AnDromedary on May 3, 2019 20:54:45 GMT
Okay, you know the timeline, correct? ME1, ME2, ME3, and then came ME:A? Well, with ME:A came a homogenization unseen before in all of ME's history. Oh, you meant to bring ME:A into this, ok, so far I'm with you/ That is a matter of opinion. I think that both systems worked in their own way. Don't really have a favorite. Ok, and this is where you loose me completely. How is the feature to select a new class after importing a save indicative of the completely different system that they introduced in Andromeda? I don't see that "natural progression" as you call it at all. Andromeda simply has a new character system. The fact that you can switch your class at the beginning of any of the trilogy games (which by the way really was a feature) doesn't homogenize anything, you are simply a different class. If anything, I'd argue that the classes were more different and had more individual play-styles in ME2/3 than in 1, so it's kinda the opposite of that. The other thing I do not get: You don't seem to like classes (since you call them a fuckup), yet you promote not even being able to break out of the system a little but by being able to switch. So I still don't really get your point here, sorry. Suffice it to say though that - if they were to go back to a class system - I'd see a benefit for many players in having the ability to respec (even with a class switch if they like) in game. I wouldn't use that feature but I can see the value for others.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 3, 2019 21:45:35 GMT
Classes. I thought it was BS that you could take one character from the first game and cycle him through half of the classes by the end of the trilogy. Pick your game BioWare. One part could work to a limited extent. Wasn't there a line in ME1 where Kaidan says non-biotic Shepard developed some potential later than normal? Beyond that, Cerberus manipulation during the resurrection process could also have brought about limited change. Turning a Soldier into an Engineer? No. Latent biotics developing? Sure, but only going from ME1 to ME2. Makes no sense to change things going into ME3.
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Post by goishen on May 3, 2019 22:36:28 GMT
Ok, and this is where you loose me completely. rly? srsly? Do me a favor, look up loose on dictionary.com. Now look up lose. Two completely different words. Look, I'm just saying that since ME2, the developers were kind'a like, "Hey, ya know what? This class system kind'a sucks. Let's ditch it." "But we can't, the class system is a large portion of the player base's favorite part!" "Yah, I suppose you're right. But let's at least introduce a system where they can change classes. At least at the beginning of the game." In ME:A, they didn't have to do that, because they got to write their own rules. Holy fuck, why am I having to explain this. I mean, if you still think I'm against classes, go back and re-read my posts. I've been very direct. Very clear about wanting classes back in the game. I can't help it if you don't have the reading comprehension to understand my posts.
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Post by AnDromedary on May 4, 2019 2:05:56 GMT
Now now, no reason to get defensive. I was mainly just wondering what advantage removing the option (and it is just an option) to change your class in between games would possibly bring. That is all and I am sorry but I still do not see the reasoning for it.
Also, just to clarify any misunderstanding, I understand that you are not necessarily against classes but when you write something like that
you'll have to forgive me if I draw the conclusion that you are not very fond of them.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 2:31:53 GMT
Ok, and this is where you loose me completely. rly? srsly? Do me a favor, look up loose on dictionary.com. Now look up lose. Two completely different words. Look, I'm just saying that since ME2, the developers were kind'a like, "Hey, ya know what? This class system kind'a sucks. Let's ditch it." "But we can't, the class system is a large portion of the player base's favorite part!" "Yah, I suppose you're right. But let's at least introduce a system where they can change classes. At least at the beginning of the game." In ME:A, they didn't have to do that, because they got to write their own rules. Holy fuck, why am I having to explain this. I mean, if you still think I'm against classes, go back and re-read my posts. I've been very direct. Very clear about wanting classes back in the game. I can't help it if you don't have the reading comprehension to understand my posts. ... and I've been very clear about not wanting them back into the game. Why? Every other RPG I've played allows you to build your character as you go from the entire skill tree. ME, on the other hand made you decide to lock yourself out of a full third of the skill tree based on a arbitrary "class" distinction that didn't make any sense in lore from the get go. Really... an N7 biotic soldier who can't aim an assault rifle? A soldier who can't ever learn to use an omni-tool to hack open a basic door? How on earth did such a Shepard get through basic training, let alone become N7?
People who "defend" the classes always seem to look at it only the one way - how does a non-biotic suddenly become a biotic? Why, is that... they don't want to admit that the other side of that coin is why classes don't make sense in the lore either and are "immersion breaking."
In ME:A - If you don't want to build a biotic character with some tech skills, you have the option, as you have in any other RPG, to just not assign skill points in that area. You can construct your character however you want. That "homogenization" gives you the ability to create a wider variety of specialized characters... making your PC truly yours... and isn't that the "point" of an RPG?
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Post by goishen on May 4, 2019 6:16:52 GMT
Now now, no reason to get defensive. I was mainly just wondering what advantage removing the option (and it is just an option) to change your class in between games would possibly bring. That is all and I am sorry but I still do not see the reasoning for it. Also, just to clarify any misunderstanding, I understand that you are not necessarily against classes but when you write something like that you'll have to forgive me if I draw the conclusion that you are not very fond of them. That's true. When the title of the thread is WHAT FEATURES DO YOU WANT IN THE NEXT MASS EFFECT GAME? And literally the first thing I said is classes. Yeh, I can totally see the discombobulation there. Sorry. My mistake, bro. I fucked up. I dunno where I went wrong. I guess I should've said it before I had said it? I guess?
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Post by goishen on May 4, 2019 6:19:30 GMT
rly? srsly? Do me a favor, look up loose on dictionary.com. Now look up lose. Two completely different words. Look, I'm just saying that since ME2, the developers were kind'a like, "Hey, ya know what? This class system kind'a sucks. Let's ditch it." "But we can't, the class system is a large portion of the player base's favorite part!" "Yah, I suppose you're right. But let's at least introduce a system where they can change classes. At least at the beginning of the game." In ME:A, they didn't have to do that, because they got to write their own rules. Holy fuck, why am I having to explain this. I mean, if you still think I'm against classes, go back and re-read my posts. I've been very direct. Very clear about wanting classes back in the game. I can't help it if you don't have the reading comprehension to understand my posts. ... and I've been very clear about not wanting them back into the game. Why? Every other RPG I've played allows you to build your character as you go from the entire skill tree. ME, on the other hand made you decide to lock yourself out of a full third of the skill tree based on a arbitrary "class" distinction that didn't make any sense in lore from the get go. Really... an N7 biotic soldier who can't aim an assault rifle? A soldier who can't ever learn to use an omni-tool to hack open a basic door? How on earth did such a Shepard get through basic training, let alone become N7?
People who "defend" the classes always seem to look at it only the one way - how does a non-biotic suddenly become a biotic? Why, is that... they don't want to admit that the other side of that coin is why classes don't make sense in the lore either and are "immersion breaking."
In ME:A - If you don't want to build a biotic character with some tech skills, you have the option, as you have in any other RPG, to just not assign skill points in that area. You can construct your character however you want. That "homogenization" gives you the ability to create a wider variety of specialized characters... making your PC truly yours... and isn't that the "point" of an RPG? And that's great. I guess you can follow them down the shitter, then, ehh?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 11:49:02 GMT
... and I've been very clear about not wanting them back into the game. Why? Every other RPG I've played allows you to build your character as you go from the entire skill tree. ME, on the other hand made you decide to lock yourself out of a full third of the skill tree based on a arbitrary "class" distinction that didn't make any sense in lore from the get go. Really... an N7 biotic soldier who can't aim an assault rifle? A soldier who can't ever learn to use an omni-tool to hack open a basic door? How on earth did such a Shepard get through basic training, let alone become N7?
People who "defend" the classes always seem to look at it only the one way - how does a non-biotic suddenly become a biotic? Why, is that... they don't want to admit that the other side of that coin is why classes don't make sense in the lore either and are "immersion breaking."
In ME:A - If you don't want to build a biotic character with some tech skills, you have the option, as you have in any other RPG, to just not assign skill points in that area. You can construct your character however you want. That "homogenization" gives you the ability to create a wider variety of specialized characters... making your PC truly yours... and isn't that the "point" of an RPG? And that's great. I guess you can follow them down the shitter, then, ehh? Pft... you're just trolling... as usual.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 4, 2019 12:56:54 GMT
Really... an N7 biotic soldier who can't aim an assault rifle? Training with an assault rifle, or any weapon for that matter, can be time consuming and distracting from other, more basic parts of your training. Nobody walks into basic, gets handed a rifle and told to shoot things, right off the bat. You're probably not going to hassle your human biotic with assault rifle training, because you'll be too busy training them in biotics. I've met marksmen that have never fired an M16. Why? Because they'll be using sniper rifles and, possibly, service handguns. He can shoot an assault rifle, but don't expect him to be as proficient with it as a field soldier. And that's what the ME1 classes represent; familiarity, training and expertise. You may not like how it is represented, but doesn't mean it's wrong, if anything, what you propose, poses and unrealistic service scenario, or training standard, at least to my service knowledge.
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Post by goishen on May 4, 2019 15:28:40 GMT
He expects them to be able to pick locks, too. Show me that one in the standard field guide.
But, you know... We're just trolling. At least I am.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 4, 2019 16:10:06 GMT
He expects them to be able to pick locks, too. Show me that one in the standard field guide. Well, we trained to breach doors, which has the same result, but not as subtle. I figure in future military corps something like hacking may be doable, but I don't expect these operatives to be trained in assault rifles to the extent of a field soldier. They would be too valuable and scenario specific to be deployed with the rank and file troops. This might already be true for military corps in other countries or in the private military, but I wouldn't know. It's also been over a decade since I fulfilled my service. I just think that a soldier that throws warps, with the same ease he hacks doors, mows down troops by the hundreds with his assault rifle and snipes people from 1km is not just unusual, it's not just unrealistic, he is a unicorn or a dragon. These soldiers simply don't exist. You wouldn't be trained for all that. Which is why field troops aren't also the bomb squad, for example, or field medics as well. And I get that Ryder has SAM to help with all that, but it's ... well, SAM is illegal tech. I get that he is helpful and all and that the Andromeda Initiative is neither a council race, nor a military, but a private group that operates beyond council space and, therefore, laws, but experimentation with AI, as far as the Initiative knows, has never worked well and in a volatile environment, where a rogue AI could run unchecked and fuck every living organic, would not normally be a risk people would be willing to take.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 18:05:10 GMT
Really... an N7 biotic soldier who can't aim an assault rifle? Training with an assault rifle, or any weapon for that matter, can be time consuming and distracting from other, more basic parts of your training. Nobody walks into basic, gets handed a rifle and told to shoot things, right off the bat. You're probably not going to hassle your human biotic with assault rifle training, because you'll be too busy training them in biotics. I've met marksmen that have never fired an M16. Why? Because they'll be using sniper rifles and, possibly, service handguns. He can shoot an assault rifle, but don't expect him to be as proficient with it as a field soldier. And that's what the ME1 classes represent; familiarity, training and expertise. You may not like how it is represented, but doesn't mean it's wrong, if anything, what you propose, poses and unrealistic service scenario, or training standard, at least to my service knowledge. What I said was 'can't aim" an assault rifle... in ME1, that is, was unable physically to put that rifle into the aimed position. Although it is a skill anyone can learn... it's not a skill we were allowed to put skill point into unless we had unlocked it as a bonus power and selected it that way. The only gun a biotic could aim was a pistol. Also, Shepard was N7... allegedly the best of the best... I doubt you'd find a single soldier of that caliber around who had no proficiency in aiming an assault rifle.
There is no good reason to arbitrarily lock players out of large portions of the skill tree. If individuals want to build a "class" without certain skills, they simply don't have to assign their skill points into it... but locking players out of making such builds if they want to is just silly... and it adds nothing to the game's overall replay-ability.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 18:10:25 GMT
He expects them to be able to pick locks, too. Show me that one in the standard field guide. But, you know... We're just trolling. At least I am. Yes, trolling.. with all your "is that so difficult to understand" type jibes. As I responded above... lock picking is a skill that can be learned by anyone. It doesn't require a "biotic implant" so it should be available to assign skill points into that area for all PC's rather than having some 'classes" of PC's locked out of those skills.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 4, 2019 18:29:59 GMT
What I said was 'can't aim" an assault rifle... in ME1, that is, was unable physically to put that rifle into the aimed position Git Gud Although it is a skill anyone can learn... it's not a skill we were allowed to put skill point into unless we had unlocked it as a bonus power and selected it that way Exactly. The alliance can train a million marines to use assault rifles, but perhaps only a thousand biotics. Perhaps they'd be better trained to use their biotics instead of wasting valuable training time learning to use assault rifles. Perhaps pistols and SMGs are preferable to that. Or shotguns. Also, the fact that you can pick it up as a train skill reflects both time allocation and freedom of choice, in addition to your obligatory training. The fact that Shepard, even as an N7, would know to use every single weapon type, is an exaggeration. As a field soldier, you'd get a rifle and train with it for years. The N7 program would most likely not be a weapons training program. At that point, you would be trained deep into tactics, survival and impossible combat scenarios. The Soldier class already depicts an overwhelming and meticulous dedication in weapon familiarity and proficiency, that would take most soldiers several years to achieve, let alone master.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 18:48:22 GMT
What I said was 'can't aim" an assault rifle... in ME1, that is, was unable physically to put that rifle into the aimed position Git Gud Although it is a skill anyone can learn... it's not a skill we were allowed to put skill point into unless we had unlocked it as a bonus power and selected it that way Exactly. The alliance can train a million marines to use assault rifles, but perhaps only a thousand biotics. Perhaps they'd be better trained to use their biotics instead of wasting valuable training time learning to use assault rifles. Perhaps pistols and SMGs are preferable to that. Or shotguns. Also, the fact that you can pick it up as a train skill reflects both time allocation and freedom of choice, in addition to your obligatory training. The fact that Shepard, even as an N7, would know to use every single weapon type, is an exaggeration. As a field soldier, you'd get a rifle and train with it for years. The N7 program would most likely not be a weapons training program. At that point, you would be trained deep into tactics, survival and impossible combat scenarios. The Soldier class already depicts an overwhelming and meticulous dedication in weapon familiarity and proficiency, that would take most soldiers several years to achieve, let alone master. Why then can we unlock them as bonus powers and use them on biotics simply because we've played through the game as a soldier and shot 50 enemies using that gun... then, all of a sudden the Alliance can train its biotics to use AR's? Why then can we suddenly give a soldier the ability to cast a barrier just because we once played through as a biotic and cast 25 of them during that run? It was such a bad idea, they were already shitting on their lore in ME1 with it. The bonus power system got even more laughable in ME2 where simply acquiring a squadmate with that power earned Shepard the ability to use it... regardless of his/her class to start with. My ME2 engineers could reave for no other reason that having a couple of conversations with Samara, but my Adept Shepards had to wait until I got LotSB to use Stasis (even though they could use it in ME1).
The class system is just plain crap. It's for people who need Bioware to hold their hand and tell them exactly where they can put their points to make a biotic build... so they do it by telling them arbitrarily where they shouldn't put points by making it so they can't. I say "git gud" at learning how to build a character without so much hand holding. That way, you'll be able to build a much larger variety of characters with different combinations of skills. By ME3, every engineer was the same because their were only a few "choices" you could made that changed their skill set ever so slightly. We lose a lot with the class system and gain essentially nothing. Any character that can be created in ME3 via class can be created in ME:A... just only put your skill points in the areas that "class' used in ME3 and you've got yourself a Ryder with the old set "class." I like the ability to mix it up more.
... and whether you know it or not... that was the difference between a weapon Shepard could train and one he/she could not train. You could fire the AR as a biotic, just not raise it into an aimed position. Ditto with the sniper rifle. Just try looking through the scope with a biotic in ME1 and you'll see what I mean. I'm sure any butthead recruit (ETA: if one existed who was actually that stupid - and I"m sure there isn't) IRL can put a scope to their eye without having trained with a SR.
ETA: I apologize to anyone who missed my original intention with the above statement and took offense by it.
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Post by goishen on May 4, 2019 19:01:37 GMT
He expects them to be able to pick locks, too. Show me that one in the standard field guide. But, you know... We're just trolling. At least I am. Yes, trolling.. with all your "is that so difficult to understand" type jibes. As I responded above... lock picking is a skill that can be learned by anyone. It doesn't require a "biotic implant" so it should be available to assign skill points into that area for all PC's rather than having some 'classes" of PC's locked out of those skills. Ummm. it's not trolling if it doesn't make someone laugh. I mean, your reaction is laughable, but I'm still not laughing. But then again, I expect that you're one of those people that got participation trophies. You were told that you're the last winner. And you use trolling incorrectly, just like pokimane.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 19:09:05 GMT
Yes, trolling.. with all your "is that so difficult to understand" type jibes. As I responded above... lock picking is a skill that can be learned by anyone. It doesn't require a "biotic implant" so it should be available to assign skill points into that area for all PC's rather than having some 'classes" of PC's locked out of those skills. Ummm. it's not trolling if it doesn't make someone laugh. I mean, your reaction is laughable, but I'm still not laughing. But then again, I expect that you're one of those people that got participation trophies. You were told that you're the last winner. And you use trolling incorrectly, just like pokimane. I'll go back to a term from my age then... Still 'fishing" for a reaction. Shrug.
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Post by goishen on May 4, 2019 19:12:18 GMT
And you're using fishing incorrectly there too.
Jeezus.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 4, 2019 19:27:25 GMT
Why then can we unlock them as bonus powers and use them on biotics simply because we've played through the game as a soldier and shot 50 enemies using that gun... then, all of a sudden the Alliance can train its biotics to use AR's? Because it represents your personal allocation of time, beyond Alliance training. Why then can we suddenly give a soldier the ability to cast a barrier just because we once played through as a biotic and cast 25 of them during that run? It was such a bad idea, they were already shitting on their lore in ME1 with it. Since there are no real life biotics, I cannot give you a reasonable explanation for that. However, even as a soldier, that I am currently playing through, in my chats with Kaidan, he calls me an exception, as far as human biotics go. Perhaps Shepard has biotic ability regardless, just never developed it, because even as a potential biotic, he chose to become a soldier instead? Maybe one of the many things that didn't make it into the final game would explain this better, in which case it also represent your personal allocation of time, beyond alliance training. Good bantz, love it. That way, you'll be able to build a much larger variety of characters with different combinations of skills. Well, another thing is roleplaying. Instead of seeing your character as a "master of everything", the point of the class system is also to establish a background and furthermore, to substantiate the Alliance's training programs, as Alliance instructors of their time saw fit. So it is also world building. ... and whether you know it or not... that was the difference between a weapon Shepard could train and one he/she could not train. You could fire the AR as a biotic, just not raise it into an aimed position. Ditto with the sniper rifle. Just try looking through the scope with a biotic in ME1 and you'll see what I mean. I'm sure any butthead recruit IRL can put a scope to their eye without having trained with a SR. Dude, I was just kidding with the "git gud" spoiler. I thought that the spoiler part made it obvious enough. I know how it was like to fire with an untrained weapon in ME1. It was extremely difficult to hit anything.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 19:34:51 GMT
Why then can we unlock them as bonus powers and use them on biotics simply because we've played through the game as a soldier and shot 50 enemies using that gun... then, all of a sudden the Alliance can train its biotics to use AR's? Because it represents your personal allocation of time, beyond Alliance training. Why then can we suddenly give a soldier the ability to cast a barrier just because we once played through as a biotic and cast 25 of them during that run? It was such a bad idea, they were already shitting on their lore in ME1 with it. Since there are no real life biotics, I cannot give you a reasonable explanation for that. However, even as a soldier, that I am currently playing through, in my chats with Kaidan, he calls me an exception, as far as human biotics go. Perhaps Shepard has biotic ability regardless, just never developed it, because even as a potential biotic, he chose to become a soldier instead? Maybe one of the many things that didn't make it into the final game would explain this better, in which case it also represent your personal allocation of time, beyond alliance training. Good bantz, love it. That way, you'll be able to build a much larger variety of characters with different combinations of skills. Well, another thing is roleplaying. Instead of seeing your character as a "master of everything", the point of the class system is also to establish a background and furthermore, to substantiate the Alliance's training programs, as Alliance instructors of their time saw fit. So it is also world building. ... and whether you know it or not... that was the difference between a weapon Shepard could train and one he/she could not train. You could fire the AR as a biotic, just not raise it into an aimed position. Ditto with the sniper rifle. Just try looking through the scope with a biotic in ME1 and you'll see what I mean. I'm sure any butthead recruit IRL can put a scope to their eye without having trained with a SR. Dude, I was just kidding with the "git gud" spoiler. I thought that the spoiler part made it obvious enough. I know how it was like to fire with an untrained weapon in ME1. It was extremely difficult to hit anything. According to Ashley, the Alliance training philosophy was 'Every marine a rifleman... so I guess biotic Shepard isn't a marine.
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Post by themikefest on May 4, 2019 19:44:21 GMT
I'm sure any butthead recruit IRL can put a scope to their eye without having trained with a SR. Do you have something against recruits in real life to call them buttheads?
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 4, 2019 19:48:46 GMT
According to Ashley, the Alliance training philosophy was 'Every marine a rifleman... so I guess biotic Shepard isn't a marine. Perhaps that's true for the average troops. Biotics are more rare. At least not as common for humans as they are for Asari, yeah? So Biotic Shepard would make a very unusual marine, especially considering his biotic potential. Perhaps there's a special training program for the Alliance's biotic marines, that doesn't involve assault rifle training. Perhaps deemed to wasteful in that training process.
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