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Post by Sartoz on May 9, 2019 0:41:14 GMT
Hawley has plans to introduce an anti lootbox and pay-to-win mechanics bill to protect people under the age of 18.
Here is a slice of the bill "...The bill summary also takes aim at so-called "pay-to-win" mechanics that "manipulate a game's progression system... to induce players to spend money.....".
Anthem has grind... DA4 will have grind.... I wonder how EA / Bio will handle this.
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melbella
N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 7,912 Likes: 24,200
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Post by melbella on May 9, 2019 1:02:14 GMT
No link?
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Post by Sartoz on May 9, 2019 1:08:41 GMT
Ooops I've update the OP.
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Post by colfoley on May 9, 2019 1:19:22 GMT
Every game ever has grind. I mean seriously talk about crossing your wires.
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Post by Sartoz on May 9, 2019 1:19:58 GMT
Depending on the bill's language, ME3MP, DAIMP and MEAMP may be affected and competitor's games as well.
Mobile game will be the hardest hit. I've played some to free-to-play games and they hit you once you reach level 5+. So, will the game store pull these games?
I'll be interested in what the studio / EA has to say about this as it will effect game progression/grind design.
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Post by Sartoz on May 9, 2019 1:21:47 GMT
Every game ever has grind. I mean seriously talk about crossing your wires.
As i mentioned, the bill's language will determine how they can enforce this mechanic.
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Post by colfoley on May 9, 2019 1:33:54 GMT
Every game ever has grind. I mean seriously talk about crossing your wires.
As i mentioned, the bill's language will determine how they can enforce this mechanic.
My point is that lootboxes and grind are two seperate 'problems' within the game industry. It might be possible to leglslate one but I don't see how its possible to leglslate the other and both can open up giant cans of worms.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 9, 2019 7:56:20 GMT
The summary of the legislation released by Hawley’s office mentions “pay-to-win” mechanics and lootboxes as its main targets. He offers the example of Candy Crush’s $150 “Luscious Bundle,” which offered a bunch of in-game currency.
After the Star Wars Battlefront 2 debacle, I think the industry has probably realized lootboxes aren’t a great idea - all the focus is on “cosmetics” now.
However, the legislation does have value as a signal to the game’s industry that these abusive schemes carry the risk of provoking government oversight.
If it makes EA hesitant about pay-to-win mechanics, that’s only good news for Dragon Age.
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Post by Sartoz on May 9, 2019 8:42:49 GMT
As i mentioned, the bill's language will determine how they can enforce this mechanic.
My point is that lootboxes and grind are two seperate 'problems' within the game industry. It might be possible to leglslate one but I don't see how its possible to leglslate the other and both can open up giant cans of worms.
Well, that's why I want to see the language of the bill.
However, it's possible excessive grind to unlock a cosmetic or few coins as a rewards for in game currency to buy the cosmetic may be outlawed. Thus the "grind" design may be impacted.
A negative that I see is that the bill pushes pubs to go the "yearly" subscription route for all games as a way to maintain their game monetisation..
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 9, 2019 9:40:21 GMT
From the language, I suspect this will only impact games that are aimed at children, which is pretty vague criteria. It may not affect Anthem or DA4 at all. They may be rated below R18+, but you'd have a hard time convincingly arguing that children are the intended audience.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on May 9, 2019 10:36:37 GMT
It sounds like they're only talking about banning lootboxes and pay-to-win for underage friendly games. So possibly this would manifest in anything that uses these mechanics being rated 18+?
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 9, 2019 12:47:11 GMT
It sounds like they're only talking about banning lootboxes and pay-to-win for underage friendly games. So possibly this would manifest in anything that uses these mechanics being rated 18+? That still affects games like FIFA and Madden. Even if this legislation fails, at this point politicians will continue pushing for regulation of lootboxes, until they get it right. There are multiple countries/states that are pushing for it and at this point it is inevitable. Sooner or later, the legislation will pass, EA and other publishers will have to comply and even if that doesn't work, in spite of the popularity of EA's sports games, their fanbase is dwindling and the revenue is already showing decline. It still is a fuckhuge amount of money, ($4.75bn according to their recent financial report) but EA needs a successful franchise to make up for that decline, in the eyes of their investors and shareholders, as well as something to substitute their gigantic source of income with, once it trails off completely/gets legislated out of the equation.
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Post by biggydx on May 9, 2019 15:32:00 GMT
I'm not sure why you think this would affect Anthem since there's no Pay2Win options in the game; or lootboxes. If anything, this would actually hurt the F2P market the most, and that includes games like Apex Legends and Fortnite. Hell, even Overwatch and The Division 2 would take a hit; if the legislation hits across ALL age rating levels.
I tend to be wary of legislation regarding regulation of the video game industry. As bad as lootboxes were, public outcry towards the practice has done a lot of good in making people more skeptical of its usage. That doesn't mean companies still don't try to use it, but at least if they do, they're inviting more problems onto themselves.
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Post by Polka Dot on May 9, 2019 17:42:18 GMT
While I generally support pro-consumer legislation that aims to protect consumers from exploitative business practices, I fear such legislation could have... unintended consequences.
As others have noted, it could destroy the F2P model as we know it. It could also result in more games being sold via subscription only, or require additional fees per playthrough or hour played. The various packages and editions sold are already fairly extensive; I can just imagine the new packages with some additional fee structure for ongoing play, like so: $60 - base game, one playthrough or up to 80 hours of play. $80 - completionist package, includes up to 200 hours of play. $120 - completionist plus, includes up to 500 hours of play. etc.
Of course with that kind of pricing model, the next hill would be ever-expanding game length/size, and content inflation. (also, it could really wreck the used game market.)
You can bet that industry lobbyists will be all over this proposed legislations, and I would rate its chance of passage as paper thin. Still, the combination of player pushback and regulatory threat might be enough to get publishers to police themselves a bit. It seems that they already have, at least to some degree.
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N3
People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on May 10, 2019 1:09:09 GMT
I would like to make a note that while all games do indeed have a grind.
Microtransactions do in fact affect just how awfully painful aforementioned grind is.
Microtransactions and lootboxes are not introduced to NOT be sold, they are introduced to be sold and in order for it to be sold you'd have to somehow manipulate people into buying, and the subtlest way to do this is by making the progression more and more tedious.
It does not necessarily happen over night, as we witness with Ubisoft's Assassin's Creed, but it will eventually happen.
Microtransactiosn and lootboxes are increasing the goals for the investors, because microtransactions and lootboxes are in fact an additional income for corporations, which means more money and more money means higher expectations and desire for even more money.
This desire will not go away, at any point. It will only make investors crave more money forcing corporations to make their mictrotransactions even more appetizing by making an even grindier game.
I don't know why all of this goes in the ear of people and right out the other, it is the most simple, most basic business logic. It is just straight up fact.
This is why microtransactions and lootboxes in many cases should not be encouraged, they should be discouraged, what we need is not for games to compete with their microtransactions, we need games to compete based on their systems, the overall gameplay, the general quality of story, etc. all of which will matter less and less, as corporations can just simply rake in money with their microtransactions and lootboxes.
That said.
Yes, the chances of this bill passing is minimal. Furthermore, no one wants the government involved, but we who enjoy gaming really need to start realising what these microtransactions and lootboxes does to the industry.
Also, a study from Australia suggests that lootboxes, at the very least, are having similar affects on the mind as gambling. The EU may be undergoing studies to perhaps find similar results, and if it is indeed the case then lootboxes should be restricted to 18+ games.
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Post by duskwanderer on May 10, 2019 1:20:22 GMT
I doubt it would affect BioWARE because those are intended for adults. But if it affects FIFA and EA, whoo, boy.
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TheEmptyRoad
N2
Honor is a fool's prize, glory is no use to the dead.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: The3mptyRoad
PSN: TheEmptyRoad
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Post by TheEmptyRoad on May 10, 2019 2:54:18 GMT
At the very least, whether or not this bill passes, it has been seen. If the industry continues to try and 'work around' or find loopholes instead of just, you know, NOT trying to monetize every little thing after this, they deserve what happens to them.
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Post by Ieldra on May 10, 2019 9:26:24 GMT
Hawley has plans to introduce an anti lootbox and pay-to-win mechanics bill to protect people under the age of 18.
Here is a slice of the bill "...The bill summary also takes aim at so-called "pay-to-win" mechanics that "manipulate a game's progression system... to induce players to spend money.....".
Anthem has grind... DA4 will have grind.... I wonder how EA / Bio will handle this.
It is currently discussed here in Germany whether paid-for lootboxes with random content fall under the definition of "gambling", which would make it illegal to offer such "services" to minors. I tentatively support defining this as "gambling" because it facilitates addiction. I do not support banning pay-to-win mechanics with non-random content - there it should be everyone's own decision whether to put up with it. I would certainly not play any MP game with pay-to-win mechanics. It's not as if there aren't any alternatives.
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Elfen Lied
N3
Fatebinder
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Post by Elfen Lied on May 10, 2019 15:47:06 GMT
It is currently discussed here in Germany whether paid-for lootboxes with random content fall under the definition of "gambling", which would make it illegal to offer such "services" to minors. I tentatively support defining this as "gambling" because it facilitates addiction. I do not support banning pay-to-win mechanics with non-random content - there it should be everyone's own decision whether to put up with it. I would certainly not play any MP game with pay-to-win mechanics. It's not as if there aren't any alternatives.
I'm not sure if comparing pay2win games to gambling would be the right thing to do. Gambling usually implies that you risk your money to get something tangible, i.e. other money or a material prize. In a game you don't get nothing but self satisfaction. Besides, people can become addicted to many things. For example, there are compulsive shoppers, so they should ban Amazon as well, or any other digital shop online that allow anyone to spend their money without restraint.
Correct me if I am wrong: considering that you have to pay with a credit card and that a minor cannot have a credit card (at least where I live) shouldn't they already be protected by default?
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Post by Sartoz on May 10, 2019 21:38:19 GMT
Interesting quote.
"It's nice not feeling the need to spot any sleight of hand these days or wonder if the card was chosen or forced. I'm happy to be free from the half-truths and full-on deceptions. And thankful to no longer hear people referred to as 'muggles' like a con-man refers to a 'mark'." - Former Gearbox VP of business development (and voice of Claptrap in Borderlands) David Eddings describes the relief of no longer working with Gearbox CEO Randy Pitchford, who Eddings said assaulted him at GDC 2017 and stalked him on social media.
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Post by garrusfan1 on May 10, 2019 23:28:04 GMT
Your kidding me right? This is what they are fuc*ing working on.
Climate change that ends with human extinction nope. Health care nope. The ridiculous corruption nah
Consumer rights and regulation-screw them all...except when it comes to having some people volunterily buy loot boxes.
This is just ridiculous. THIS is what they choose to regulate. The economy is gonna crash soon because they took off what little regulations on the banks there was... I give up.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 10, 2019 23:52:01 GMT
It is currently discussed here in Germany whether paid-for lootboxes with random content fall under the definition of "gambling", which would make it illegal to offer such "services" to minors. I tentatively support defining this as "gambling" because it facilitates addiction. I do not support banning pay-to-win mechanics with non-random content - there it should be everyone's own decision whether to put up with it. I would certainly not play any MP game with pay-to-win mechanics. It's not as if there aren't any alternatives.
I'm not sure if comparing pay2win games to gambling would be the right thing to do. Gambling usually implies that you risk your money to get something tangible, i.e. other money or a material prize. In a game you don't get nothing but self satisfaction. Besides, people can become addicted to many things. For example, there are compulsive shoppers, so they should ban Amazon as well, or any other digital shop online that allow anyone to spend their money without restraint.
Correct me if I am wrong: considering that you have to pay with a credit card and that a minor cannot have a credit card (at least where I live) shouldn't they already be protected by default? Kids are smarter than you think, and even the best parent can't be guarding their credit card at all hours. There are numerous accounts of children stealing from their parents to buy digital goods in games like Fortnite.
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melbella
N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
Prime Posts: 2186
Prime Likes: 5778
Posts: 7,912 Likes: 24,200
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Post by melbella on May 10, 2019 23:57:42 GMT
There are numerous accounts of children stealing from their parents to buy digital goods in games like Fortnite. That's a different issue that I don't think gaming regs are going to alleviate just by making items/mechancis illegal since STEALING IS ALREADY ILLEGAL and is apparently not enough of a deterrent.
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People are too forgiving when it comes to video games, and their focus is malplaced.
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Post by cankiie on May 11, 2019 0:24:44 GMT
Your kidding me right? This is what they are fuc*ing working on. Climate change that ends with human extinction nope. Health care nope. The ridiculous corruption nah Consumer rights and regulation-screw them all...except when it comes to having some people volunterily buy loot boxes. This is just ridiculous. THIS is what they choose to regulate. The economy is gonna crash soon because they took off what little regulations on the banks there was... I give up. Politicians also want voters. It is only logical. This new generation of voters, even those born in the 80s and 90s know and tend to play video games. Those born following those years have grown up with video games being the big thing. Now looking into gaming and the practises by gaming corps is the new way to get voters. Gaming is mainstream, and it has ruined gaming! Nah, just like with the last gaming crash we had, the fault lies mostly with the gaming corporations themselves who could not keep it in their pants and start regulating their own greed, the ESRB was there to do that, but seeing as the ESRB are funded by the gaming corps themselves the gaming corps only have themselves to blame. And those newer generations of gamers (Even those who are older than myself but who got into gaming later) who think microtransactions and lootboxes should somehow be okay in every single part of gaming. Silly... absolutely silly. Good thing we still have the good independent developers... time to support them!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 11, 2019 1:21:24 GMT
There are numerous accounts of children stealing from their parents to buy digital goods in games like Fortnite. That's a different issue that I don't think gaming regs are going to alleviate just by making items/mechancis illegal since STEALING IS ALREADY ILLEGAL and is apparently not enough of a deterrent. Yeah at that point it’s the parent’s and kid’s fault rather than the game company. Also every system has parental settings that allows parents to stop even stolen credit cards with things like needing a password. As mentioned above, the fact some politicians think this should be where their attention is rather than actual problems is ridiculous.
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