inherit
410
0
2,852
Sartoz
6,013
August 2016
sartoz
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on May 11, 2019 12:32:52 GMT
Snip The fact that they are now allowing you to grab missions without even going to the NPCs and now launch to new missions without going back to FT, it is clear that they are de-emphasizing FT to a point of meaninglessness. They realized everyone hates it.
Hm... Kinda disagree.
Taking short cuts is what people do. Go to any park and you will notice, in addition to the official pathways, paths across grass that people made to shorten their walk to a destination. Same here. It doesn't mean it's a de-emphasis.
A good design for a city / hub, imo, is to allow the player to explore at leisure but also provide fixed points of interests. If the hub is large, provide Public Contract Boards at various location to minimise distances. Also, "offices" for the various NPC that give special contracts. Additionally, once the player reaches a certain reputation level, these same NPCs would contact the player to offer opportunities that dovetail with their "expertise". Finally, the player ought to decide from anywhere (once the mission is over), what to choose next (ie: explore or choose public recyclable contracts). This minimises loading screens.... which in this game is a huge design flaw. Marketing calls that QoL improvements but I reserve that for life outside the game.
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inherit
410
0
2,852
Sartoz
6,013
August 2016
sartoz
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on May 11, 2019 12:43:18 GMT
The "official" explanation per the devs was they wanted Fort Tarsis to feel tight and cramped as you moved through it and those close quarters felt better represented in first person point of view. It was a design decision...that's it. Whether it was a good or bad one is relative to the player. Not my first choice but I don't hate it. I'm just glad the combat is in third person...THAT was the right decision. This and furthermore in cramped walkways you run into issues 3rd Person as the Field of View ends up in a wall. NPCs facial expressions are also distanced 3rd Person, a problem both Andromeda and Inquisition suffered from. The 'reasons' are plan to see even if disliked by some.
Different view here.
Time is the key for this decision. The Kotaku article clearly spells out that the studio was short on time. Third person animation required the use of EA computer animation farms which have to be scheduled in advance. They take time, cost and resources that Bio could not afford.... Time was the critical factor. Eliminating 3rd person view and the editing time required to make it work properly bought Bio time. Even then, we know the shape of the game at launch.
Bio's "official" explanation is just a load of farts.
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flauntyquill
N2
May you always suck the jelly out of life's doughnut.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: Faeryia
XBL Gamertag: flauntyQuill
Posts: 117 Likes: 226
inherit
11168
0
Aug 30, 2019 11:27:39 GMT
226
flauntyquill
May you always suck the jelly out of life's doughnut.
117
Apr 22, 2019 10:35:34 GMT
April 2019
flauntyquill
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Faeryia
flauntyQuill
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Post by flauntyquill on May 11, 2019 13:31:55 GMT
I know there's slim chance, but I am still hoping they'll fix it so at least we can shift between first and third person ourselves. Even if the camera is always positioned slightly behind the PC like in DA:O I would prefer that. First Person makes me nauseous. It's not so bad in Anthem because the character moves quite slowly, and I can turn off the head movements, although I don't feel that made much an improvement.
Camera view aside, I do enjoy exploring Fort Tarsis and talking to the NPCs. I have a love for textures and details, and I think Tarsis is really beautiful. As is all of Anthem. I still wish I could actually bump into people and have them react like in the Assassin's Creed games, but compared to everything else it is such a minor detail it would probably not add as much to the atmosphere of the game as I imagine it would.
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inherit
265
0
11,980
Pounce de León
Praise the Justicat!
7,910
August 2016
catastrophy
caustic_agent
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Post by Pounce de León on May 13, 2019 17:16:06 GMT
This and furthermore in cramped walkways you run into issues 3rd Person as the Field of View ends up in a wall. NPCs facial expressions are also distanced 3rd Person, a problem both Andromeda and Inquisition suffered from. The 'reasons' are plan to see even if disliked by some.
Different view here.
Time is the key for this decision. The Kotaku article clearly spells out that the studio was short on time. Third person animation required the use of EA computer animation farms which have to be scheduled in advance. They take time, cost and resources that Bio could not afford.... Time was the critical factor. Eliminating 3rd person view and the editing time required to make it work properly bought Bio time. Even then, we know the shape of the game at launch.
Bio's "official" explanation is just a load of farts.
Ye, their reason doesnt explain it away convincingly. Tho you still require animations for the NPCs. A couple of anims for tje PC - really that hard for the time budget? Is probably a mix. Might have been planned as immersive XP to be had in 1st person but not enough time to make story really happen.
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0
Jun 24, 2019 22:35:11 GMT
213
vorchainteriordesign
46
Apr 21, 2019 16:02:18 GMT
April 2019
vorchainteriordesign
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Post by vorchainteriordesign on May 14, 2019 13:12:54 GMT
The "official" explanation per the devs was they wanted Fort Tarsis to feel tight and cramped as you moved through it and those close quarters felt better represented in first person point of view. It was a design decision...that's it. Whether it was a good or bad one is relative to the player. Not my first choice but I don't hate it. I'm just glad the combat is in third person...THAT was the right decision. This and furthermore in cramped walkways you run into issues 3rd Person as the Field of View ends up in a wall. NPCs facial expressions are also distanced 3rd Person, a problem both Andromeda and Inquisition suffered from. The 'reasons' are plan to see even if disliked by some. GRAAAAH! IGNORES FACT THAT IN PREVIOUS BIOWARE GAMES THAT USED PRIMARY 3RD PERSON POV (KOTOR, MASS EFFECT FOR EXAMPLE) IN ANY REAL CONVERSATION, CAMERA CHANGED AND 1ST PERSON POV WAS USED, CAMERA FOCUS ON SPEAKER THEN ON TARGET, SOMETIMES ZOOM BACK SEE BOTH, ETC. REASONS ARE NOT PLAN TO SEE, OR PLAIN. REASONS ARE PLAIN THEY DID NOT PLAN!
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0
1
Apr 15, 2024 11:40:05 GMT
32,674
SofaJockey
Not a jockey. Has a sofa.
13,126
August 2016
sofajockey
SofaJockey
SofaJockey
6000
7164
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Post by SofaJockey on May 14, 2019 13:28:34 GMT
REASONS ARE NOT PLAN TO SEE, OR PLAIN. REASONS ARE PLAIN THEY DID NOT PLAN! Such games would use cutscenes, which are expensive. Games like Inquisition and Andromeda tried to reduce the need for cutscenes, but the 3rd person perspective was not immersive. It's a practical solution, irrespective of SHOUTING...
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Jun 24, 2019 22:35:11 GMT
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vorchainteriordesign
46
Apr 21, 2019 16:02:18 GMT
April 2019
vorchainteriordesign
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Post by vorchainteriordesign on May 14, 2019 13:31:39 GMT
REASONS ARE NOT PLAN TO SEE, OR PLAIN. REASONS ARE PLAIN THEY DID NOT PLAN! Such games would use cutscenes, which are expensive. Games like Inquisition and Andromeda tried to reduce the need for cutscenes, but the 3rd person perspective was not immersive. It's a practical solution, irrespective of SHOUTING... VORCHA SPEAK IN ONE TONE. MONOTONE LOUD!! GAAAH! I DO NOT MEAN OFFENSE, JUST HOW WE TALK! EXPENSIVE? VORCHA CONFUSED. PREVIOUS GAMES HAD LOTS OF EXPENSIVE, NEW GAMES CANNOT AFFORD?
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inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 14, 2019 13:41:50 GMT
PREVIOUS GAMES HAD LOTS OF EXPENSIVE, NEW GAMES CANNOT AFFORD? Aurora and UE3 were probably better suited for the task, compared to Frostbyte. So additional work would need to be put into it for games like Inquisition, Andromeda and Anthem, therefore more expensive.
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57
0
1
Apr 15, 2024 11:40:05 GMT
32,674
SofaJockey
Not a jockey. Has a sofa.
13,126
August 2016
sofajockey
SofaJockey
SofaJockey
6000
7164
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Post by SofaJockey on May 14, 2019 13:44:41 GMT
VORCHA SPEAK IN ONE TONE. MONOTONE LOUD!! GAAAH! I DO NOT MEAN OFFENSE, JUST HOW WE TALK! EXPENSIVE? VORCHA CONFUSED. PREVIOUS GAMES HAD LOTS OF EXPENSIVE, NEW GAMES CANNOT AFFORD? That's fair, I didn't notice your Vorcha accent. You need an avatar maybe. The cost issue is addesed in these interesting tweets from 2017 from Mike Laidlaw. TL;DR: It ain't easy. Animation in older games was much 'simpler', that all needs mocap and a ton of effort, so the more that can naturally be captured from an acceptable in-game POV, the batter for cost. Inquisition was criticized because you couldn't see many of the faces properly. Andromeda was criticized becauase, er, you could.
Mike Laidlaw @mike_Laidlaw · 5 Oct 2017 So the ask is totally valid. "I picked this class, can you make that special and rewarding." So, yes, of course, right? Why wouldn't we?
And the answer, as you might expect is, "we could, but what would we give up in doing so? And is that worth it?"
It comes down to math. Say we want to have a boss kill in a cutscene, and we want to make is super special.
So, first we have to make the scene. Music, visual effects, scripting it into a likely-custom environment. Let's say it's expensive.
So compared to a "normal" scene, this one costs, let's call it "3 zots." It's 3 times as complicated and fancy as a normal. Worth it? Yeah.
But now we have to make some tweaks to it, because of races. Let's say elves and humans are even, but dwarf and qunari variants +1 zot each.
Okay, now we're up to 5. So that's not too terrible, but getting pricey, but still worth it, right?
But now we have to get fancy with the killing blow. We have three classes...but we have 5 core weapon types...uh oh.
More if you want blunt to be treated different from "stabbing" (mace vs. sword, let's say). Okay, so now it's getting pricey.
Assuming height tweaks can be reused but are needed per variation, we have 5 times five "zots" in play.
But say we have some savings that bring that down to the deleriously good half-price. 12.5 zots!
So now, the question is: is supporting custom class-kills worth 12 other "normal" cutscenes? Sometimes yes...but then you have to ask...
..by doing it once, am I committing to doing it for all bosses? If 5, am I willing to spend 60 scenes of effort on 5 scenes the player sees?
Again, sometimes the answer is yes. Sometimes the cost is lower or higher. Doesn't matter.
What matters is this: every single feature you see in a came has to be run through this kind of filter. Because rarely is it free or easy.
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11167
0
Jun 24, 2019 22:35:11 GMT
213
vorchainteriordesign
46
Apr 21, 2019 16:02:18 GMT
April 2019
vorchainteriordesign
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Post by vorchainteriordesign on May 14, 2019 13:59:49 GMT
NOT CONVINCING FOR ME, OTHER THAN PETRAKIS' POINT REGARDING ENGINE CHANGE. ONE ENGINE LIKE TOYOTA, NEW ENGINE LIKE LAMBORGHINI. ONE WORKS OK AND HAS PARTS MECHANICS KNOW, OTHER HAS NO PARTS, RUNS LIKE BANSHEE AND WHEN IT BREAKS DOWN BETTER CALL MARIO BECUZ IT'S ITALIAN!
MOCAP ISN'T NEEDED MORE THAN BEFORE, THAT IS EXCUSE. GRRAAAAAGH MOCAP IS EXPENSIVE AND SHOULD BE USED SPARINGLY; THAT NEVER CHANGES!
FAST CAR IS FAST WHEN IT WORKS. GOOD CAR IS GOOD BECAUSE IT ALWAYS WORKS.
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flauntyquill
N2
May you always suck the jelly out of life's doughnut.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: Faeryia
XBL Gamertag: flauntyQuill
Posts: 117 Likes: 226
inherit
11168
0
Aug 30, 2019 11:27:39 GMT
226
flauntyquill
May you always suck the jelly out of life's doughnut.
117
Apr 22, 2019 10:35:34 GMT
April 2019
flauntyquill
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Faeryia
flauntyQuill
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Post by flauntyquill on May 14, 2019 14:20:54 GMT
VORCHA SPEAK IN ONE TONE. MONOTONE LOUD!! GAAAH! I DO NOT MEAN OFFENSE, JUST HOW WE TALK! EXPENSIVE? VORCHA CONFUSED. PREVIOUS GAMES HAD LOTS OF EXPENSIVE, NEW GAMES CANNOT AFFORD? That's fair, I didn't notice your Vorcha accent. You need an avatar maybe. The cost issue is addesed in these interesting tweets from 2017 from Mike Laidlaw. TL;DR: It ain't easy. Animation in older games was much 'simpler', that all needs mocap and a ton of effort, so the more that can naturally be captured from an acceptable in-game POV, the batter for cost. Inquisition was criticized because you couldn't see many of the faces properly. Andromeda was criticized becauase, er, you could.
Mike Laidlaw @mike_Laidlaw · 5 Oct 2017 So the ask is totally valid. "I picked this class, can you make that special and rewarding." So, yes, of course, right? Why wouldn't we?
And the answer, as you might expect is, "we could, but what would we give up in doing so? And is that worth it?"
It comes down to math. Say we want to have a boss kill in a cutscene, and we want to make is super special.
So, first we have to make the scene. Music, visual effects, scripting it into a likely-custom environment. Let's say it's expensive.
So compared to a "normal" scene, this one costs, let's call it "3 zots." It's 3 times as complicated and fancy as a normal. Worth it? Yeah.
But now we have to make some tweaks to it, because of races. Let's say elves and humans are even, but dwarf and qunari variants +1 zot each.
Okay, now we're up to 5. So that's not too terrible, but getting pricey, but still worth it, right?
But now we have to get fancy with the killing blow. We have three classes...but we have 5 core weapon types...uh oh.
More if you want blunt to be treated different from "stabbing" (mace vs. sword, let's say). Okay, so now it's getting pricey.
Assuming height tweaks can be reused but are needed per variation, we have 5 times five "zots" in play.
But say we have some savings that bring that down to the deleriously good half-price. 12.5 zots!
So now, the question is: is supporting custom class-kills worth 12 other "normal" cutscenes? Sometimes yes...but then you have to ask...
..by doing it once, am I committing to doing it for all bosses? If 5, am I willing to spend 60 scenes of effort on 5 scenes the player sees?
Again, sometimes the answer is yes. Sometimes the cost is lower or higher. Doesn't matter.
What matters is this: every single feature you see in a came has to be run through this kind of filter. Because rarely is it free or easy.
Not entirely related perhaps, but an easy fix for those who are annoyed by the facial animations in DA: I is to first play Andromeda for a couple of hours and then change to DA:I. I swear, the animations look awesome when you do that.
Also, I understand game developers wanting to push the envelope when it comes to graphics, making their games look better and better. But no amount of fancy animations can save a badly written plot and inconsistent characters. I think they, and in particular BioWare, need to change focus and go back to their roots a bit.
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inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 14, 2019 16:05:47 GMT
Not entirely related perhaps, but an easy fix for those who are annoyed by the facial animations in DA: I is to first play Andromeda for a couple of hours and then change to DA:I. I swear, the animations look awesome when you do that. Bioware Magic
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Feb 24, 2021 20:40:39 GMT
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reiichiroh
51
April 2019
reiichiroh
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Post by reiichiroh on May 16, 2019 22:17:36 GMT
AC Odyssey's dialogue scene cameras show you what could have been as Ubisoft moves more into Olde BioWare RPG Lite territory.
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inherit
9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 17, 2019 12:04:00 GMT
AC Odyssey's dialogue scene cameras show you what could have been as Ubisoft moves more into Olde BioWare RPG Lite territory. I'll say it again, Odyssey has been the best Bioware-like experience in a game I've ever had, since ME2. Would recommend. Also, Melissanthi Mahut speaking English in a Greek accent is so cute, it's irresistible. And I generally hate cute stuff.
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inherit
✜ Theorymancer
2627
0
Jan 16, 2020 14:58:38 GMT
2,733
PillarBiter
2,366
January 2017
pillarbiter
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
PillarBiter
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Post by PillarBiter on May 17, 2019 13:13:52 GMT
AC Odyssey's dialogue scene cameras show you what could have been as Ubisoft moves more into Olde BioWare RPG Lite territory. I'll say it again, Odyssey has been the best Bioware-like experience in a game I've ever had, since ME2. Would recommend. Also, Melissanthi Mahut speaking English in a Greek accent is so cute, it's irresistible. And I generally hate cute stuff. Intriguing. It's that character focused and story heavy? Do you need to have played the other AC's ?
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inherit
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0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 17, 2019 13:41:35 GMT
Intriguing. It's that character focused and story heavy? Do you need to have played the other AC's ? It has references to a few events in Origins, in the modern day part of the story, but you can just play Kassandra's or Alexios' story and not miss a beat.
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