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Post by Iddy on May 23, 2019 17:04:46 GMT
And yet, there are some non-Wardens in the series who know that Grey Wardens have tainted blood.
Like Finn during Witch Hunt, the npcs in Skyhold commenting on how surprising it is that a GW could conceive a child (Kieran) or Oghren saying "Where is that cup? I'll gargle and spit!" before being told about it.
I know there are a few more examples, but I can't remember right now.
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Post by vertigomez on May 23, 2019 17:27:45 GMT
It could just be the specifics that are a mystery? Like what sort of weird darkspawn blood magic concoction they actually have to consume and where it comes from. And the Calling side effect. Apparently the fertility thing is well known, as even Isabela comments on it....
Isabela: You've certainly... filled out, Carver. Shame, really, I hear joining the Wardens separates the men from their "boys." Warden!Carver: We rarely have children, true. But don't worry, that just means I try ever so much harder.
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on May 24, 2019 1:15:31 GMT
Like Finn during Witch Hunt, the npcs in Skyhold commenting on how surprising it is that a GW could conceive a child (Kieran) or Oghren saying "Where is that cup? I'll gargle and spit!" before being told about it. Finn is a scholar - probably read about it somewhere Orlais doesn't hate Wardens (or at least didn't until Inquisition) so information about them is probably more well known than in Ferelden where they aren't all that popular. Also, Orlesians love to gossip. Oghren traveled with the Warden and Alistair so could have picked up a few things there, either directly or by eavesdropping.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 24, 2019 19:01:30 GMT
There has always been inconsistency about this right back to DAO. At the beginning we are told the whole ritual is very hush, hush and it is vital it is kept a secret. Yet it would seem the Circle of Magi must have some inkling that it involves a magical potion because Duncan requests one of them to help with brewing it (or did I remember that wrong?) Alistair comments that it is probably necessary because no one would want to join if they knew what the Joining involved and that there is a high chance you won't survive it. This seems borne out later in DAA as Nathaniel says his family never knew what happened to his relative who went off to join the Wardens and never came back but in hindsight he realised he probably just didn't survive the Joining.
Then at the Landsmeet, when the option is suggested of conscripting Loghain to the Wardens, Anora says that would seem a fair way of judging the matter as people don't always survive the Joining. So how did she know that? Did Riorden break his vow of secrecy and tell her in order to get her on side? Even so, whilst she knew the Joining might be fatal, she wouldn't have been told the exact ingredients of the potion they are meant to drink.
The knowledge that the Joining renders the Warden infertile might not be such a secret. Whilst Wardens are meant to leave their old lives behind, we know that the warden whose body Justice inhabited was married and remained in contact with his wife. Presumably there were other wardens who did them same and in any case there didn't seem any suggestion that they should remain celibate even if they weren't meant to maintain family ties, so eventually it probably became apparent to the general populace that wardens don't seem to be able to have children. The hierarchy may even have been willing to let this "secret" out because it would explain why the Grey Wardens couldn't simply guarantee their future by encouraging a hereditary element to the order.
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Post by Iddy on May 24, 2019 19:34:28 GMT
There has always been inconsistency about this right back to DAO. At the beginning we are told the whole ritual is very hush, hush and it is vital it is kept a secret. Yet it would seem the Circle of Magi must have some inkling that it involves a magical potion because Duncan requests one of them to help with brewing it (or did I remember that wrong?) Alistair comments that it is probably necessary because no one would want to join if they knew what the Joining involved and that there is a high chance you won't survive it. This seems borne out later in DAA as Nathaniel says his family never knew what happened to his relative who went off to join the Wardens and never came back but in hindsight he realised he probably just didn't survive the Joining. Then at the Landsmeet, when the option is suggested of conscripting Loghain to the Wardens, Anora says that would seem a fair way of judging the matter as people don't always survive the Joining. So how did she know that? Did Riorden break his vow of secrecy and tell her in order to get her on side? Even so, whilst she knew the Joining might be fatal, she wouldn't have been told the exact ingredients of the potion they are meant to drink. The knowledge that the Joining renders the Warden infertile might not be such a secret. Whilst Wardens are meant to leave their old lives behind, we know that the warden whose body Justice inhabited was married and remained in contact with his wife. Presumably there were other wardens who did them same and in any case there didn't seem any suggestion that they should remain celibate even if they weren't meant to maintain family ties, so eventually it probably became apparent to the general populace that wardens don't seem to be able to have children. The hierarchy may even have been willing to let this "secret" out because it would explain why the Grey Wardens couldn't simply guarantee their future by encouraging a hereditary element to the order. So while it is a poorly kept secret, non-Wardens generally only know part of the truth. Hmm. You know... I can't help but think that a HoF who romances Morrigan and leads a perfectly functional family life for 10 years is an anomaly. Maybe even lore breaking.
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Post by thats1evildude on May 24, 2019 19:37:54 GMT
No secret known by a large number of people stays a secret for long. That’s the flaw in a lot of conspiracy theories.
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N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: melbella
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Post by melbella on May 24, 2019 23:25:48 GMT
Anora says that would seem a fair way of judging the matter as people don't always survive the Joining. So how did she know that? Did Riorden break his vow of secrecy and tell her in order to get her on side? Duncan could have told Cailan and Anora quite a bit about the Wardens while he was stationed in Denerim. Even Maric could have told them any number of things.
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Post by vertigomez on May 24, 2019 23:33:47 GMT
No secret known by a large number of people stays a secret for long. That’s the flaw in a lot of conspiracy theories. "It's not a secret anymore. It's information."
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Post by gervaise21 on May 25, 2019 12:19:03 GMT
Hmm. You know... I can't help but think that a HoF who romances Morrigan and leads a perfectly functional family life for 10 years is an anomaly. Maybe even lore breaking. Well it doesn't start off perfect. You will recall that Morrigan leaves straight after the Battle of Denerim and has stipulated he will have no part in the upbringing of their child. It is only some years later (certainly after the events of DAA) during the events of Witch Hunt that the HoF can persuade her to let him go with her. Then at some point (which was left somewhat vague) he takes off in search of a cure, presumably because he wants to continue the family life with Morrigan and his child and he is starting to feel the effects of the Taint. So whilst it is an anomaly, it is hardly lore breaking. As I say above, the warden that Justice inhabited had a wife and he kept contact with her. If Jordy had taken and survived the Joining, he had a newly married, pregnant wife back home. I thought that Duncan should have recruited only single people or at least those without children dependent on them, but he clearly would have known the situation with Jordy. Did he think the guy would totally abandon his wife? Just talking to him makes it clear that would not be the case. In between Blights what would be wrong with maintaining family contacts? I could never really see the point in taking the Joining between Blights. The benefits of immunity and sensing darkspawn would be off-set by the high wastage among recruits, so better to keep it as a last resort should they fall sick from coming into contact. The only task that a fully joined warden is needed for is killing an arch-demon (or doing a soul snatch if that is your preference). Plenty of time to do the ritual should one surface or be discovered underground.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 25, 2019 16:35:11 GMT
I could never really see the point in taking the Joining between Blights. The benefits of immunity and sensing darkspawn would be off-set by the high wastage among recruits, so better to keep it as a last resort should they fall sick from coming into contact. The only task that a fully joined warden is needed for is killing an arch-demon (or doing a soul snatch if that is your preference). Plenty of time to do the ritual should one surface or be discovered underground. I'd assumed it was done to make the secret easier to keep. The Chantry might try to ban it if they learned of it, and certain overzealous templars would try to enforce a ban whether or not the Chantry gave them one to enforce. If nearly everyone who knows of the Joining has been modified by it, they have a cast-iron reason not to tell the Chantry, and especially not the overzealous templars.
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Post by gervaise21 on May 25, 2019 18:54:19 GMT
I'd assumed it was done to make the secret easier to keep. If nearly everyone who knows of the Joining has been modified by it, they have a cast-iron reason not to tell the Chantry, and especially not the overzealous templars. That was not the case in DAA though. There the Joining ritual was conducted by the Seneschal of Vigil's Keep, who was an ordinary civilian who had never undertaken the Joining himself. So the only thing keeping him to secrecy was presumably an oath he swore to do so. Why if someone has taken the Joining would that necessarily make them more likely to keep it secret. They could have been truly horrified and it would only take one drunken slip-up or even a totally sober feeling of revulsion for the secret to be revealed to someone outside the order. That is why it seemed to me that the secret of the Joining would be safer with only a few people knowing about it. It would be a secret passed on by each Warden-Commander to their second in command as something that is only done as a last resort or when it is clear that a Blight has begun. If a Warden-Commander died before nominating their successor then the new Warden-Commander would be informed of the secret by their nearest neighbouring Commander or Wiesshaupt. Apparently it is not enough to use simply darkspawn blood in the potion, you need a drop of arch-demon blood as well. Given the wastage, if there is a long period between Blights, as there was between the 4th and 5th, there could be a serious danger of supplies running out. Far better to save resources, both human and material, for when they are truly needed. I wonder if Warden HQ were re-considering the matter because in Last Flight they were reluctant to put new recruits through the Joining straight away. Whilst in the book it would seem they did not know what was happening with the wardens in Orlais, they would have known about Corypheus escaping from his prison and the control he seemed to have over wardens, so that may have explained it. Of course, if wardens were not automatically put through the Joining between Blights then Corypheus' false Calling would not have worked because it would only have affected older recruits. So no need for a general panic.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 26, 2019 16:41:17 GMT
I'd assumed it was done to make the secret easier to keep. If nearly everyone who knows of the Joining has been modified by it, they have a cast-iron reason not to tell the Chantry, and especially not the overzealous templars. That was not the case in DAA though. There the Joining ritual was conducted by the Seneschal of Vigil's Keep, who was an ordinary civilian who had never undertaken the Joining himself. So the only thing keeping him to secrecy was presumably an oath he swore to do so. Why if someone has taken the Joining would that necessarily make them more likely to keep it secret. They could have been truly horrified and it would only take one drunken slip-up or even a totally sober feeling of revulsion for the secret to be revealed to someone outside the order. Varel's a lot of the reason I said nearly everyone who knows of the Joining has taken it. But I agree that having him know the secret for no reason was probably unwise. Anyway, the reason I say that someone's more likely to keep the Joining secret if they've taken it is that they're now guilty of the crime they might otherwise want to report. If a Warden had told a fanatical templar that every Warden including themselves had been modified by a blood magic ritual, and that templar decides that all Wardens who've done it need to die, what happens to the snitch? Three can keep a secret if they all think their lives depend on it.
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Post by boxofscreaming on May 26, 2019 21:22:12 GMT
Hmm, it's definitely meant to be a secret, but maybe they forget that sometimes. Notably, as far as I know, the codex entries (written by Chantry scholars) make no mention of the Joining. I also seem to recall Hawke didn't really understand what being a Grey Warden involved when Carver was recruited.
Another thing I realised may be a secret - the mages' phylacteries. Duncan's never heard of them in the Magi origin. I'd assumed they were common knowledge, but struggling to think of them being mentioned by non-mages.
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Post by michaeln7 on May 27, 2019 4:56:26 GMT
I see the Joining as a psuedo-equivalent to, say, joining the Special Forces of your country's military (I say "SF" as a generic here, not specifying any one group).
Point being, everyone knows they exist on paper, and that there is A process, but the details of THE process are anybody's guess.
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Post by vertigomez on May 27, 2019 21:22:11 GMT
Another thing I realised may be a secret - the mages' phylacteries. Duncan's never heard of them in the Magi origin. I'd assumed they were common knowledge, but struggling to think of them being mentioned by non-mages. Bull theorizes that Cullen's watchword would be "phylactery"...
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Post by boxofscreaming on May 27, 2019 22:17:26 GMT
Another thing I realised may be a secret - the mages' phylacteries. Duncan's never heard of them in the Magi origin. I'd assumed they were common knowledge, but struggling to think of them being mentioned by non-mages. Bull theorizes that Cullen's watchword would be "phylactery"... Well, Templars would know and Bull's a spy.
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Post by vertigomez on May 27, 2019 22:23:23 GMT
Bull theorizes that Cullen's watchword would be "phylactery"... Well, Templars would know and Bull's a spy. Fair. That's just the only instance I could think of, lol.
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Post by Blaze on May 29, 2019 12:35:33 GMT
it's a matter of putting 2+2 together. sure the wardens keep the ritual a secret, however, it is known that drinking darkspawn blood can make darkspawn think you are one of their own (eg. ruck), it is known that said blood can also kill you, it is known that people who join the wardens often don't survive (even if the actual details of the joining is not known, if people, like sir jory, dies before even fighting darkspawn, some clever people like anora would figure out the joining is deadly, even without knowing why), and it is known that wardens can resist darkspawn. so yeah the wardens keep secret, but they can't hide the clues and some people can piece those clues together. specifically for oghren, he likely either knew about the cup from his time with the warden during the blight or he saw the cup as a recruit while waiting for the arrival of the commander. Point being, everyone knows they exist on paper, and that there is A process, but the details of THE process are anybody's guess. i think that sums it really well =D
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Post by Reznore on May 29, 2019 15:33:21 GMT
I'd imagine it is still somewhat of a secret. Wardens get the blight ( blight is known to have some kind of contagious effect) eventually they lost their minds and turn ghoulish. Without knowing all the details of the process, it sounds pretty bad. For dwarves the blight is more of an everyday thing, they have the legion of the dead and deal with darkspawn all the time. And they are closer to the wardens, they know they go to die in the deep roads. And scholars are well scholars, it's their job to know stuff. But for common folks, or even some people in power, it might be better if they don't know. Stuff like Adamant when the wardens lost their collective mind over the fake calling isn't reassuring, and screams never trust a warden they can turn coocoo on the spot. :s
Still it's not the best kept secret, but the wardens at time have to recruit in bulk and go for pretty much anyone, so some people will talk. Also it might be impossible for the wardens to go official with the information, there's obviously the problem of people growing too suspicious of them but there is also the Chantry issue. The blight is supposed to be somekind of divine punishment, and singing the chant from all corner of the world is supposed to be the cure. The wardens have a pragmatic and somewhat ruthless approach to the Blight issue ( sometimes allying with darkspwan, getting blighted, wanting to cure the Calling so you only have the "nice" part of the joining, using the blight to be immortal, using blood magic etc..), this might clash with religious teachings.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jul 27, 2019 15:46:10 GMT
Anora says that would seem a fair way of judging the matter as people don't always survive the Joining. So how did she know that? Did Riorden break his vow of secrecy and tell her in order to get her on side? Duncan could have told Cailan and Anora quite a bit about the Wardens while he was stationed in Denerim. Even Maric could have told them any number of things. It's also possible that as leadres of a country the ywould b eentrusted with information like that. I'd be surprised if Celene and Gaspard didn't know it as well or any other potential political leaders either. Because I think the ywould want and need t oknow in order t ofiguer out how t obest serve the wardens in times of difficulty such as Blights Because as we saw Wardens on their own aren't enough to deal with the situation when a Blight is in ful swing. As Alistair I think said in a conversation with you it often takes half a dozen armies to put an end to a Blight and that's assuming a grey warden lands the killing blow on the Archdemon like we do at the end of DAO.
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Post by duckley on Aug 2, 2019 16:43:46 GMT
It think what is most secret is what they drink. The specifics of the ceremony are secret but they are well founded rumours....
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Aug 3, 2019 11:28:57 GMT
I'd imagine it is still somewhat of a secret. Wardens get the blight ( blight is known to have some kind of contagious effect) eventually they lost their minds and turn ghoulish. Without knowing all the details of the process, it sounds pretty bad. For dwarves the blight is more of an everyday thing, they have the legion of the dead and deal with darkspawn all the time. And they are closer to the wardens, they know they go to die in the deep roads. And scholars are well scholars, it's their job to know stuff. But for common folks, or even some people in power, it might be better if they don't know. Stuff like Adamant when the wardens lost their collective mind over the fake calling isn't reassuring, and screams never trust a warden they can turn coocoo on the spot. :s Still it's not the best kept secret, b ut the wardens at time have to recruit in bulk and go for pretty much anyone, so some people will talk. Also it might be impossible for the wardens to go official with the information, there's obviously the problem of people growing too suspicious of them but there is also the Chantry issue. The blight is supposed to be somekind of divine punishment, and singing the chant from all corner of the world is supposed to be the cure. The wardens have a pragmatic and somewhat ruthless approach to the Blight issue ( sometimes allying with darkspwan, getting blighted, wanting to cure the Calling so you only have the "nice" part of the joining, using the blight to be immortal, using blood magic etc..), this might clash with religious teachings. Yeah they tend to recruit in bulk I think mostly because the ydon't know how many of them it's going t otake to getto an Archdemon .As there's always like4ly going t obe an ocean of darkspawn between them and the beast itself That for m ewas why Jory wsa recruited as I think normally they would only go with single people who aren't married and expecting children and onl ydid so in this case because of the Blight as Stroud kind of said t oHawke we don't just recruit anyone when Carver/Bethany are brought to them. I think they only really do that when they need numbers such as during a Blight
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Post by Iddy on Aug 16, 2019 14:29:34 GMT
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 16, 2019 18:52:05 GMT
But isn't it often said that the Wardens don't just take anyone? They do screen out people who would be a total liability; the individual needs a degree of combat ability. I've also pointed out that if you go by Last Flight then they don't just need darkspawn blood for the Joining but a drop of Arch-demon blood as well. That is a finite resource, particularly when you consider the Warden Commanders are spread across Thedas and now they no longer have the gryphons, it would not be easy to replenish supplies at short notice. It is hard to say whether they are as selective during a Blight as in between them. Duncan seemed to have adopted a selection process that kept his numbers limited when it would seem that he could have had more. Yet he opted for Jordy when clearly there must have been other volunteers and co-opted the other guy (don't recall his name) purely because he caught him pick-pocketing so he had no option but to join up or be turned over to the authorities. So I do agree that I wonder just how picky the Wardens can afford to be during a Blight.
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Post by Iddy on Aug 16, 2019 18:56:47 GMT
But isn't it often said that the Wardens don't just take anyone? They do screen out people who would be a total liability; the individual needs a degree of combat ability. I've also pointed out that if you go by Last Flight then they don't just need darkspawn blood for the Joining but a drop of Arch-demon blood as well. That is a finite resource, particularly when you consider the Warden Commanders are spread across Thedas and now they no longer have the gryphons, it would not be easy to replenish supplies at short notice. It is hard to say whether they are as selective during a Blight as in between them. Duncan seemed to have adopted a selection process that kept his numbers limited when it would seem that he could have had more. Yet he opted for Jordy when clearly there must have been other volunteers and co-opted the other guy (don't recall his name) purely because he caught him pick-pocketing so he had no option but to join up or be turned over to the authorities. So I do agree that I wonder just how picky the Wardens can afford to be during a Blight. Nah. Iirc, it was also because Daveth had quick hands and Duncan thought that is an useful skill in battle.
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