Silversmurf
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Post by Silversmurf on May 24, 2019 16:25:28 GMT
I hope the developers strive to make the best game they possibly can that THEY envisage (not the fans)
I hope fans get little to no input as that can skew games in the wrong direction.
Support them, or don't but at least play the game that they create.
Don't cater to one side or another. Take pride in your creation, no short cuts.
Run with YOUR ideas devs and create something truly special !
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 24, 2019 20:31:22 GMT
I hope the developers strive to make the best game they possibly can that THEY envisage (not the fans) I hope fans get little to no input as that can skew games in the wrong direction. Support them, or don't but at least play the game that they create. Don't cater to one side or another. Take pride in your creation, no short cuts. Run with YOUR ideas devs and create something truly special ! It didn’t work for MEA, why would you want it for DA4?
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Beerfish
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Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Beerfish
XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
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Post by Beerfish on May 24, 2019 21:53:20 GMT
Well, listen to no one......cept me
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Post by colfoley on May 24, 2019 22:07:57 GMT
I hope the developers strive to make the best game they possibly can that THEY envisage (not the fans) I hope fans get little to no input as that can skew games in the wrong direction. Support them, or don't but at least play the game that they create. Don't cater to one side or another. Take pride in your creation, no short cuts. Run with YOUR ideas devs and create something truly special ! It didn’t work for MEA, why would you want it for DA4? what didn't work for MEA?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by duckley on May 25, 2019 17:16:56 GMT
I just hope its a good game and that people don' go overboard in their criticism. DAI was a great game for me - but OMG to read some of the critiques it was a terrible game!
I don't understand why MEA was panned so badly. A flawed game for sure - released too early - but I had a ton of fun playing it. I would have loved a dlc or an MEA2. I cant help but feel that part of the reason it was put to bed was because of the intense of criticism- much of it not deserved IMO. Sales were impacted by the bad press to some extent I suspect, so of course EA is less inclined to invest into Bioware and its projects. That worries me.... I don't play Anthem type games - but for the life of me I can't figure out why Bioware/EA would release a game that is apparently not very good. It seems counter-productive and suicidal if you ask me. Is Anthem really that bad? Has Bioware lost it? I hope not because I cant wait for DA4 to come out!!
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Blaze
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Everyone seem normal till you get to know them
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Post by Blaze on May 25, 2019 17:53:32 GMT
I hope the developers strive to make the best game they possibly can that THEY envisage (not the fans) I hope fans get little to no input as that can skew games in the wrong direction. Support them, or don't but at least play the game that they create. Don't cater to one side or another. Take pride in your creation, no short cuts. Run with YOUR ideas devs and create something truly special ! It didn’t work for MEA, why would you want it for DA4? it worked for baldur's gate 1 & 2, neverwinter nights, KOTOR, jade empire, all the dragon age games so far the mass effect trilogy and guess what? it also worked for andromeda, because it's a fun game with good story and the best combat in the series. but lets for the sake of argument pretend that andromeda being a "bad game" was not a subjective opinion that can be easily argued against, how would it erase everything else bioware have done? by this point i can't say if it's more sad or amusing that people just drop "mass effect andromeda" in conversations as if it's an actual argument.
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Polka Dot
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Post by Polka Dot on May 25, 2019 18:06:58 GMT
I just hope its a good game and that people don' go overboard in their criticism. DAI was a great game for me - but OMG to read some of the critiques it was a terrible game! I feel that DAI's characters and stories are certainly up to BioWare's typically stellar standards for those aspects. I got really bogged down with the (boring imho) combat and sparse content in the massive maps. I still consider it a very good, if not great, game. I agree. MEA was memed to death before it even released, and its reception greatly suffered for it imho. Aside from the early animation issues (most of which were corrected with patches pretty quickly), a lot of people just didn't like Ryder, and I think that colored their perception of the entire game. I certainly don't regret my investment (money and time) in the game, and found it worthwhile. I think Anthem suffers from a couple of issues: 1. It's designed around co-op MP, not a traditional BioWare SP game, thus the bulk of the traditional BioWare fanbase was not interested in it. MEA got tossed to Montreal since Edmonton was focused on Anthem, and DA4 has been greatly delayed by its development. " ME died for this, DA4 was delayed for this" are commonly held (and very understandable) sentiments, leading to a certain amount of hatred toward it. 2. It actually does have quite a few problems and unmet expectations, and a lot of people who were initially eager for it have been sorely disappointed. Its player base has dwindled, the promised roadmap cancelled (postponed?), and it seems like a lot of its problems won't be easily patched, but will require some major redesign. It probably has (had?) a great deal of potential, but I'm not feeling terribly optimistic about its future.
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Gileadan
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Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on May 25, 2019 18:11:04 GMT
Fan input? Heh. How many fans wanted them to make a loot-shooter for example?
They will make a game, with more or less "BioWare magic", and we'll decide whether it's worth our money or not. Like pretty much any other developer too.
If it's a good game, great! I'll happily buy and play it.
If it isn't - well, other studios make really good stuff too.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 25, 2019 18:22:16 GMT
It didn’t work for MEA, why would you want it for DA4? what didn't work for MEA? Not listening to fans and doing only what they thought would be cool for the sake of being different. Forsaking what fans loved in ME because "Bioware magic," which is what OP is encouraging/enabling.
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Post by colfoley on May 25, 2019 19:12:42 GMT
what didn't work for MEA? Not listening to fans and doing only what they thought would be cool for the sake of being different. Forsaking what fans loved in ME because "Bioware magic," which is what OP is encouraging/enabling. None of Andromeda's problems had anything to do with giving fans what they wanted or not. Rather it came down to execution. I mean sure I guess fans want a 'well polished game' but then every developer wants to give us one . So no it wasn't any lack of fan service or trying to give fans a pleasing game that failed...merely their execution. And with respect what the OP is proposing is exactly what BioWare (or any company/ writer) should be going for. To write the story they want to write. Create the game they want to create and not have to worry about the fans or fan input most of whom...imo...don't seem to know what they are talking about, lack complete information, or think their own fan theories and expectations are exactly how a story should go so if said story deviates from them leaves dissapointment and even anger in its wake. Time after time. Franchise after franchise. Is often ruined or or become 'hated' over fan expectation. And in the vast majority of cases I simply disagree with the criticism. Even when I do agree with the criticism the sheer amounts of 'butt hurt' over it is...weird. In most cases its really weird how violently people can hate something for not matching their expectations. At the end of the day writers/ creators should focus on creating the stories they want to create and while fan service is neat and is one of the tools that writers can use ultimatley doing nothing but fan service can weigh a story down. And the same thing happened with Andromeda. Andromeda was (IMO) a great game. Sure it had its bugs and was ultimatley not as good as Inquisition was in my mind...but it also made vast improvements to that game too in terms of dialogue wheel, side quests, and story integration. But since the fans hated it and hated the side quests and hated the dialogue wheel it leaves BioWare in an interesting position. What should they have done? Given us a sequel set in the Milky Way and have the fan service as hell option of having Shepard return which would have made no sense given how ME 3 ended? What should they do now? Tuck their tales in between their legs pretend Andromeda never happened go back to the Milky Way give us Shepard back or a boring as hell Shepard clone just to sell copies? Should they throw out everything they have learned with Andromeda because some fans didn't like it? Should they go back to the *mostly* bland and boring side quests from DAI as well as the huge empty spaces? Should they give us a boring dialogue wheel that does not actually let us express our emotions to a full range of possibilities...I mean I loved the Inquisitor to death but it wasn't anything compared to playing Ryder?...or should they double down ignore the fan criticisms ignore what many people are saying and make the game they want to make and the game which makes sense? Should we get our Andromeda 2 or a DA 4 that learns from the past and actually forges forward? Acknowledging the mistakes it made, because no game is without sin, while forging a better experience for us all? I know what option I prefer.
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Post by bizantura on May 26, 2019 10:15:46 GMT
Bioware's saving grace after Anthem may be that EA has no IP's to speak of. Besides Fifa and Madden there isn't much to fall back on. I hope this time EA keeps a very close eye on Bioware to make sure they don't waste 5 years thinking about what to create then lying about it and 1 year creating a debacle. The creative drain seems to go hand in hand with the social decline that makes for no master at the helm with a rudderless ship at mercy of the waves and currents. * slurs removed. [ SofaJockey ]
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Partying like it's 1999
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Post by Little Bengel on May 26, 2019 13:01:09 GMT
Bioware's saving grace after Anthem may be that EA has no IP's to speak of. Besides Fifa and Madden there isn't much to fall back on. I hope this time EA keeps a very close eye on Bioware to make sure they don't waste 5 years thinking about what to create then lying about it and 1 year creating a debacle. The creative drain seems to go hand in hand with the social decline that makes for no master at the helm with a rudderless ship at mercy of the waves and currents. This is going into my pasta folder, thanks.
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Andraste_Reborn
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on May 26, 2019 13:08:32 GMT
Um, I have some bad news about the people who wrote the entire Dragon Age series so far. The writer's pit is full of women and gay/pansexual men and has been this whole time.
(Well, they do have one token straight man, Lukas Kristjanson. At least to the best of my knowledge Lukas is both straight and a man. A few others worked on Origins, but they've never been the majority or had a straight dude in charge of the team.)
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Post by biggydx on May 26, 2019 13:18:00 GMT
Fan input? Heh. How many fans wanted them to make a loot-shooter for example? They will make a game, with more or less "BioWare magic", and we'll decide whether it's worth our money or not. Like pretty much any other developer too. If it's a good game, great! I'll happily buy and play it. If it isn't - well, other studios make really good stuff too. That's really all it amounts to now. BioWare aren't the only ones who make great story driven games anymore. They need to get their house in order and start showing up if they want to be treated with the same adoration they had back in the 360/PS3 era and earlier. If the game is great, I'll buy. But right now, I'm on a wait and see status with BioWare games.
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Post by Polka Dot on May 26, 2019 14:32:36 GMT
<snip> not have to worry about the fans or fan input most of whom...imo...don't seem to know what they are talking about, lack complete information, or think their own fan theories and expectations are exactly how a story should go so if said story deviates from them leaves dissapointment and even anger in its wake. Time after time. Franchise after franchise. Is often ruined or or become 'hated' over fan expectation. And in the vast majority of cases I simply disagree with the criticism. Even when I do agree with the criticism the sheer amounts of 'butt hurt' over it is...weird. In most cases its really weird how violently people can hate something for not matching their expectations. Internet outrage and hate mobs are all the thing, don'tcha know. It's driven talented people out of industries, destroyed careers, and altered lives in a myriad of ways. It's also garnered a lot of clicks, views, and made some professional haters a lot of money. It all comes from people assuming far too much privilege, imho. For my part, I'll try to continue to clearly state my likes, dislikes, tastes, and preferences, but at the end of the day - evaluating new releases to see whether they are of interest to me is my job. The job of the developers is to deliver what they say they're going to deliver - even when it's different from what I'd prefer. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by duckley on May 26, 2019 16:23:49 GMT
<snip> not have to worry about the fans or fan input most of whom...imo...don't seem to know what they are talking about, lack complete information, or think their own fan theories and expectations are exactly how a story should go so if said story deviates from them leaves dissapointment and even anger in its wake. Time after time. Franchise after franchise. Is often ruined or or become 'hated' over fan expectation. And in the vast majority of cases I simply disagree with the criticism. Even when I do agree with the criticism the sheer amounts of 'butt hurt' over it is...weird. In most cases its really weird how violently people can hate something for not matching their expectations. Internet outrage and hate mobs are all the thing, don'tcha know. It's driven talented people out of industries, destroyed careers, and altered lives in a myriad of ways. It's also garnered a lot of clicks, views, and made some professional haters a lot of money. It all comes from people assuming far too much privilege, imho. For my part, I'll try to continue to clearly state my likes, dislikes, tastes, and preferences, but at the end of the day - evaluating new releases to see whether they are of interest to me is my job. The job of the developers is to deliver what they say they're going to deliver - even when it's different from what I'd prefer. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Well said
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xassantex
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Post by xassantex on May 26, 2019 16:36:22 GMT
i just want an overall solid single player : good lines and good combat ( ( bugs, weak spots are normal , it's the overall feeling that matters)
then they'll get my $$$ .
otherwise, it'll be the 0$ i spent on Anthem.
edit fan input is what it is , contradictive, brilliant ,stupid , empty or constructive ,.. take your pick. What's a dev to do .
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 26, 2019 16:57:10 GMT
None of Andromeda's problems had anything to do with giving fans what they wanted or not. Rather it came down to execution. In two words: I disagree. Poor execution was a huge problem, to be sure, but it doesn't account for all the problems of the fan reception of MEA. Poor execution doesn't excuse the dumb idea of going to Andromeda, abandoning nearly all the work that went into the world-building of ME -- (literally abandoned, in the case of the lost Quarian ark), and subsequently cookie-cuttering similar factions and dramatic cliches that could have just been set in the MW. I mean, if you are going to wipe the slate clean, go all in. Do a completely new and different kind of story, instead of the same story in different costumes. Not to mention all of the fan investment in Shepard and their closest known associates. Bioware ROUTINELY underestimates just how much fans identified with Shepard, and how much their support for the franchise was connected to Shepard. MEA could have been a prequel. It could have been all about the First Contact war. It could have featured a young Shepard. Even with execution as poor as MEA, don't you think a game based on that vision would have gotten a lot more love, or at least, at lot less hate from ME fans? Poor execution also doesn't excuse the muddled vision of turning a cover-shooter game into an exploration game. Being an Explorer player type myself, I actually thought the execution of the exploration parts of the game were pretty decent. Flawed, to be sure -- I still hate Eos and Kadara with a passion, boring af -- but Havarl and Elaaden made up for those. I really enjoyed chasing the sandworms on Elaaden and dune-buggying. But that's mainly because I'm an Explorer type. Anyone who loves ME for the cover-shooter stuff and/or hates open world gaming is never going to love MEA for exploration, no matter how well done it is. I really hate to be arguing the other side of this, because for any other game or any other studio, I'd be agreeing with you. But ME is an exception, due to how it has been received by fans. Again, Bioware routinely underestimates the rabid attachment fans have to "traditional" ME, or at least, what they perceive to be that tradition. In a purely business sense, it's a mistake to deviate from that expectation. A multi-million dollar mistake. Call it a success disaster, but it's still true. ME isn't the only example of this. We've seen this with Bethesda and the Fallout franchise (where FO76 was a more obvious cash grab, making the deviation even worse), with Doom, with Halo, and with other big franchise games. Every time the devs try to do something new for the sake of doing something different, they get a black eye from fans. Why refuse to learn that lesson? Does this mean dev's are enslaved by their own success and can never do anything new? Of course not. But instead of trying to foist new ideas into a fan base that doesn't want things to change that much, invent a new IP instead. I know, that's what they tried to do with Anthem -- in that case, I'll agree 100% that's mainly an execution problem, not to mention a leadership and decision making problem. But let's point to a success instead. Rockstar had a lock with GTA, and continue to churn out more and better traditional GTA games. They did NOT try to shoehorn a western cowboy showdown vision into GTA. They made a new IP instead, and knocked it out of the ballpark. So that leaves us with a question: does the DA fanbase have the same rabid attachment to the DA franchise that ME does to its? Will deviating from the DA tradition too much result in the same disaster? Is "write the story you want to write, make the game you want to make," a blessing or a curse for DA fans? On the whole, I'd say DA is not quite as rabid as ME -- there is certainly no parallel to the personal attachment to the Shepard character, because there is no equivalent in DA (some people and their "bring back my Warden" hobby horse notwithstanding). But I also think giving total license to the devs to do whatever they want would be a huge business mistake. There is some margin for trying new stuff, but I think it's on the narrow side, rather than on the broad side.
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Post by biggydx on May 27, 2019 1:30:17 GMT
So that leaves us with a question: does the DA fanbase have the same rabid attachment to the DA franchise that ME does to its? Will deviating from the DA tradition too much result in the same disaster? Is "write the story you want to write, make the game you want to make," a blessing or a curse for DA fans? On the whole, I'd say DA is not quite as rabid as ME -- there is certainly no parallel to the personal attachment to the Shepard character, because there is no equivalent in DA (some people and their "bring back my Warden" hobby horse notwithstanding). But I also think giving total license to the devs to do whatever they want would be a huge business mistake. There is some margin for trying new stuff, but I think it's on the narrow side, rather than on the broad side. I guess to answer that question, you'd have to think about whether or not you liked what BioWare did with Trespasser. Given that Patrick Weekes was its story writer, and is now leading the narrative side of the franchise from here on out, that pretty much gives you a rough metric of where the games story will pan out.
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Post by duckley on May 27, 2019 2:45:34 GMT
I would welcome new chapters in the world of DA, as I welcomed new chapters in the ME world. From my perspective Shepard's story was done. A prequel would be okay some day, but I still liked exploring new worlds in Andromeda.
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Post by melbella on May 27, 2019 3:20:47 GMT
Anyone who loves ME for the cover-shooter stuff and/or hates open world gaming is never going to love MEA for exploration, no matter how well done it is. MEA was marketed as an explorer game, so anyone buying it thinking it wasn't going to be one was just fooling themselves.
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Post by Kappa Neko on May 27, 2019 9:34:52 GMT
Bioware's saving grace after Anthem may be that EA has no IP's to speak of. Besides Fifa and Madden there isn't much to fall back on.I hope this time EA keeps a very close eye on Bioware to make sure they don't waste 5 years thinking about what to create then lying about it and 1 year creating a debacle. The creative drain seems to go hand in hand with the social decline that makes for no master at the helm with a rudderless ship at mercy of the waves and currents. I hope Mike Darrah can keep the non-creative soy boys and whamen at bay because I am sick an tired of identity politics in my games. For me, the subpar writing of ME Andromeda is what ruined it not the graphics glitches. Then again, I am not holding my breath all the creativity has already left Bioware and in hindsight for good reason!! Yes but they are making BILLIONS with those! They don't NEED any other franchises to keep them afloat, sadly.
As for identity politics, I think that ship has sailed... it's everywhere now in media/entertainment. Most of what's on Netflix is a "black lesbian" joke now. And it's all just ticking boxes to quiet down the mob of self-absorbed crybabies and look "progressive" without actually giving a shit. It's just marketing. Like Assassin's Creed Odyssey and that DLC shitstorm. They didn't even see that reaction coming!
Bioware used to be inclusive in a good way. Now we have Asari pronouns..... I have no hope left. That said, DAI was a pretty good game if you ignore the clumsy preachy identity politics. Their last great game.
To be fair, Bioware has far bigger issues than writing terrible identity politics.
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...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
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Post by Kappa Neko on May 27, 2019 9:36:31 GMT
MEA was marketed as an explorer game, so anyone buying it thinking it wasn't going to be one was just fooling themselves. With exploration being the worst aspect of the game. Good job!
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helios969
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Post by helios969 on May 27, 2019 9:40:11 GMT
None of Andromeda's problems had anything to do with giving fans what they wanted or not. Rather it came down to execution. In two words: I disagree. Poor execution was a huge problem, to be sure, but it doesn't account for all the problems of the fan reception of MEA. Poor execution doesn't excuse the dumb idea of going to Andromeda, abandoning nearly all the work that went into the world-building of ME -- (literally abandoned, in the case of the lost Quarian ark), and subsequently cookie-cuttering similar factions and dramatic cliches that could have just been set in the MW. I mean, if you are going to wipe the slate clean, go all in. Do a completely new and different kind of story, instead of the same story in different costumes. Not to mention all of the fan investment in Shepard and their closest known associates. Bioware ROUTINELY underestimates just how much fans identified with Shepard, and how much their support for the franchise was connected to Shepard. MEA could have been a prequel. It could have been all about the First Contact war. It could have featured a young Shepard. Even with execution as poor as MEA, don't you think a game based on that vision would have gotten a lot more love, or at least, at lot less hate from ME fans? Poor execution also doesn't excuse the muddled vision of turning a cover-shooter game into an exploration game. Being an Explorer player type myself, I actually thought the execution of the exploration parts of the game were pretty decent. Flawed, to be sure -- I still hate Eos and Kadara with a passion, boring af -- but Havarl and Elaaden made up for those. I really enjoyed chasing the sandworms on Elaaden and dune-buggying. But that's mainly because I'm an Explorer type. Anyone who loves ME for the cover-shooter stuff and/or hates open world gaming is never going to love MEA for exploration, no matter how well done it is. I really hate to be arguing the other side of this, because for any other game or any other studio, I'd be agreeing with you. But ME is an exception, due to how it has been received by fans. Again, Bioware routinely underestimates the rabid attachment fans have to "traditional" ME, or at least, what they perceive to be that tradition. In a purely business sense, it's a mistake to deviate from that expectation. A multi-million dollar mistake. Call it a success disaster, but it's still true. ME isn't the only example of this. We've seen this with Bethesda and the Fallout franchise (where FO76 was a more obvious cash grab, making the deviation even worse), with Doom, with Halo, and with other big franchise games. Every time the devs try to do something new for the sake of doing something different, they get a black eye from fans. Why refuse to learn that lesson? Does this mean dev's are enslaved by their own success and can never do anything new? Of course not. But instead of trying to foist new ideas into a fan base that doesn't want things to change that much, invent a new IP instead. I know, that's what they tried to do with Anthem -- in that case, I'll agree 100% that's mainly an execution problem, not to mention a leadership and decision making problem. But let's point to a success instead. Rockstar had a lock with GTA, and continue to churn out more and better traditional GTA games. They did NOT try to shoehorn a western cowboy showdown vision into GTA. They made a new IP instead, and knocked it out of the ballpark. So that leaves us with a question: does the DA fanbase have the same rabid attachment to the DA franchise that ME does to its? Will deviating from the DA tradition too much result in the same disaster? Is "write the story you want to write, make the game you want to make," a blessing or a curse for DA fans? On the whole, I'd say DA is not quite as rabid as ME -- there is certainly no parallel to the personal attachment to the Shepard character, because there is no equivalent in DA (some people and their "bring back my Warden" hobby horse notwithstanding). But I also think giving total license to the devs to do whatever they want would be a huge business mistake. There is some margin for trying new stuff, but I think it's on the narrow side, rather than on the broad side. Damn that's so good I wish I could give you 10 likes.
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Post by helios969 on May 27, 2019 9:45:48 GMT
Yes but they are making BILLIONS with those! They don't NEED any other franchises to keep them afloat, sadly. Never underestimate investor's desire for more.
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