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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 30, 2019 3:00:17 GMT
I don't see anyone in here raising a similar fuss about foreign properties adapting for Western audiences by making the cast majority white. Is that a dare? Johnny Rico in Paul Verhoeven's film adaptation of Starship Troopers was whitewashed. Well, Argentinian washed, probably because of all the Nazi expats. The Major was whitewashed in Rupert Sanders's film adaptation of Ghost in the Shell. Well, Scarlet "Boom Boom" Johansson-washed, anyway. In terms of majority cast whitewashing, there's Adam Wingard's adaptation of Death Note, but I don't think that should count, because every live action adaptation of Death Note has been execrable, even the 100% Japanese cast ones.
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Post by alanc9 on May 30, 2019 6:49:27 GMT
Rico's ethnicity is pretty easy to miss in the book. Which was kind of Heinlein's point, right?
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Post by alanc9 on May 30, 2019 6:53:18 GMT
But don't expect people to be all blind sheeps before things they see, read, and witness, from games to games, m'okay ? So let me get this straight. You know going in that the setting is rigged for retconning. You acknowledge that writers can and will retcon anything. You or I or any number of close readers of the text could fill pages with retcons that have already been perpetrated in DA. Nevermind the undermining of trust in anything, since, as I pointed out, if the Chantry can cover up something as trivial as an Inquisitor being a Dales elf, wtf else that's much more serious have they covered up? Maybe Andraste was an apostate, possessed by a Compassion spirit? Who knows, since absolutely anything goes? Despite all that, you still choose to complain about retcons in DA games? Seems like the textbook definition of futility to me. Mostly agreed, but I'm not sure that "retcon'" is technically correct here. Is there actually a continuity to retcon, beyond what our PCs have perceived with their own senses?
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Post by cankiie on May 30, 2019 9:24:25 GMT
Depending on the industry, you might see people start raising eyebrows and asking questions as whitewashing, blackwashing, genderwashing, whatever-the-fuck-you-wash-that-is-not-your-body.
Imagine older comics fans who have now left the comics industry due to is downfalling after their new, obvious politics being on constant display not only on social media but in their works too, imagine their reaction if someone like Black Panther, or Blade was white-washed. Or try to suddenly make Wonder Woman a straight male.
Questions would be asked, uproar would happen.
Manga and anime is not that big in the west, while it has gotten more popular over time, it is still a small sub-culture and thus anything being white-washed or black-washed or whatever there is mostly irrelevant.
Trying to do that to a comicsbook-to-movie thing might not go down just as well, due to it's much larger fanbase.
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Post by Syv on May 30, 2019 9:25:27 GMT
It should be noted that Sten doesn't confront the warden about being a woman when they first meet and she tells him she's a Grey Warden, even though she is visibly female and he knows wardens are warriors. Instead he confronts her in camp after they've traveled together atleast a little. Which implies that it is seeing her act as and be treated as a woman that caused him to view the warden as a woman and therefore wrong. Not her breasts.Otherwise why wouldn't he have said something in/at the cage? He sais the same thing to her that he does a male warden. With a different character I might assume they were going along with what they believed to be an obvious lie in order to escape, but Sten is content to stay in the cage and meet his punishment. I can't know for sure whether or not the qun was retconned behind-the-scenes, but if it was then it has not, so far, broken the world's consistancy. Not for me anyway. Huh ? Sten is bothered because the female warden, Morrigan, Leliana, Wynn, look like women and fight ( directly mentioned several times ), not because " they act like women " ( what does that even mean ? ) or because they are simply aknowledged as women. Also you seem to conveniently ignore a lot of things that Sten tell to focus on a relatively random thing that doesn't mean much to be honest. It's the second time that I feel like you are saying things that I don't really understand, at least with DAO and in relationship with what Sten is telling. I'm not certain on what you relate to argue such things. Why women and men are separated in their duty and roles, if not because of biology, in the first place ? Why women can't be warriors ? Just because they look differently ? Just because someone said so ? " yeaaah let's do it ? " Just because of a difference of pronouns she or he ? / Really ? That's it ? There is no basis here, that's dumb. Lol. You had this sentence absolutely clear that mentions biology as a reasoning : " A person is born Qunari or human, or elven, or dwarf. he doesn't choose that. The size of his hands, whether he is clever or foolish, the land he comes from, the color of his hair. These are beyond his control. We do not choose, we simply are. "
Meaning, that people don't get too choose what they can do, women can't fight, it's not their role, they are born to do what they can based on what they are according to him. ( and my warden will answer that people can choose in spite of their nature ) Women are born in a different way than men and that's how they roles were determined in the first place in the Qunari society, and why they are supposed to have different roles than men, regardless of the exceptions ( for Sten ). They can't fight according to him, his words. There is no nuance, no exceptions in his mind. Hence why he is stating that " women have no place in war, that women that wish to be men makes no sense, and that women who want to fight is as attainable as living on the moon and can only lead to frustration. "
When my female warden tells him that some women fight, that it's not universal truth, he still denies it. ( meaning that your good fighter = male for the Qunari doesn't apply to Sten, otherwise he would have immediately considered her as such instead of being confused and simply refusing to believe it, before trying to rationalize her as male because that could be the only satisfying answer with such strange thing. ) Sten is not only bothered by the fact that the warden is a woman, but also because she is a woman who fights, the same with others, NOT precisely because she acts like or is aknowledged as a woman lol. So excuse me, that seems pretty much based on physical appearance too in part ? So yes, her breasts. I mean it's implied, you guys need absolutely the word breasts mentioned ( ), to get that the physical appearance of the warden is also what bothered him in his way of thinking ? If he was used to see women who fight among men but according to you were considered as " males " , he wouldn't react that way, he wouldn't point out the difference of gender don't you think ? I mean it's obvious. He is the one bringing the issue, that keeps pointing out that the female warden, Morrigan, Wynn look like women and fight. He is questioning the female warden during all the game, it's a proof he is totally confused and lost. You don't react that way when you already have the answers. ( according to you that women who fight or good fighters are simply considered as males ) Also, I will point out again, that you win the respect of Sten AS A WOMAN AND A WARRIOR at the end of the game with high approval, this evolution, that totally makes sense with his arc only reinforces my thoughts anyway. On what basis it was decided that women couldn't be warriors - Obviously physical attributes, where obviously men have some advantages -, if not because of differences of biology ?
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Post by Iakus on May 30, 2019 13:09:43 GMT
But don't expect people to be all blind sheeps before things they see, read, and witness, from games to games, m'okay ? So let me get this straight. You know going in that the setting is rigged for retconning. You acknowledge that writers can and will retcon anything. You or I or any number of close readers of the text could fill pages with retcons that have already been perpetrated in DA. Nevermind the undermining of trust in anything, since, as I pointed out, if the Chantry can cover up something as trivial as an Inquisitor being a Dales elf, wtf else that's much more serious have they covered up? Maybe Andraste was an apostate, possessed by a Compassion spirit? Who knows, since absolutely anything goes? Despite all that, you still choose to complain about retcons in DA games? Seems like the textbook definition of futility to me. The setting is not "rigged for retconning" (or if it is, that's a pretty sh*tty way to create a setting) THe setting IS rife with forgotten or misinterpreted history, however. Details such as the fall of Arlathan, the Golden City, the origins of the dwarves, the nature of darkspawn, etc, are all shrouded ni mystery because their beginnings are either lost to history, have been twisted or misinterpreted, or deliberately changed over hundreds or in some cases thousands of years. The history of the Qunari before landing on Thedas may not be known, but how they live their day to day lives are not.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 30, 2019 15:45:31 GMT
Mostly agreed, but I'm not sure that "retcon'" is technically correct here. Is there actually a continuity to retcon, beyond what our PCs have perceived with their own senses? It's a fair point. One could argue that, by undermining the meaning of truth in lore and evidentiary validity, the whole continuity game is off. There is no absolute continuity to base any argument upon. One might as well argue on the basis of belief or opinion, which would not suffer more for lack of proof, since nothing can be proven in the absolute. Still, a "face value" interpretation of lore known to date is at least something we can all agree to as a basis for continuity, for the sake of argument. Sure, it's ultimately futile and subject to overthrow, but until it is overthrown, we don't have anything better.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 30, 2019 15:53:19 GMT
The setting is not "rigged for retconning" (or if it is, that's a pretty sh*tty way to create a setting) THe setting IS rife with forgotten or misinterpreted history, however. That's precisely what I mean by rigged for retconning. There is no continuity in the absolute sense. Anything is subject to historical revisionism. Anything is subject to unreliable narrators (Solas). Everything is layers of the onion, and when we think we've finally gotten to the inner layer and the truth, they can just add more hidden layers, ad infinitum. They've given themselves license to change anything in established lore, in the name of forgotten/covered up/misinterpreted/lost history or trickster liars that fooled us. Since "history is a pack of lies" is the norm, not the exception, what better way could a setting be set up for arbitrary retconning at any time?
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Post by alanc9 on May 30, 2019 15:56:11 GMT
It should be noted that Sten doesn't confront the warden about being a woman when they first meet and she tells him she's a Grey Warden, even though she is visibly female and he knows wardens are warriors. Instead he confronts her in camp after they've traveled together atleast a little. Which implies that it is seeing her act as and be treated as a woman that caused him to view the warden as a woman and therefore wrong. Not her breasts.Otherwise why wouldn't he have said something in/at the cage? He sais the same thing to her that he does a male warden. With a different character I might assume they were going along with what they believed to be an obvious lie in order to escape, but Sten is content to stay in the cage and meet his punishment. I can't know for sure whether or not the qun was retconned behind-the-scenes, but if it was then it has not, so far, broken the world's consistancy. Not for me anyway. Huh ? Sten is bothered because the female warden, Morrigan, Leliana, Wynn, look like women and fight ( directly mentioned several times ), not because " they act like women " ( what does that even mean ? ) or because they are simply aknowledged as women. Also you seem to conveniently ignore a lot of things that Sten tell to focus on a relatively random thing that doesn't mean much to be honest. It's the second time that I feel like you are saying things that I don't really understand, at least with DAO and in relationship with what Sten is telling. I'm not certain on what you relate to argue such things. Why women and men are separated in their duty and roles, if not because of biology, in the first place ? Why women can't be warriors ? Just because they look differently ? Just because someone said so ? " yeaaah let's do it ? " Just because of a difference of pronouns she or he ? / Really ? That's it ? There is no basis here, that's dumb. Lol. You had this sentence absolutely clear that mentions biology as a reasoning : " A person is born Qunari or human, or elven, or dwarf. he doesn't choose that. The size of his hands, whether he is clever or foolish, the land he comes from, the color of his hair. These are beyond his control. We do not choose, we simply are. "
Meaning, that people don't get too choose what they can do, women can't fight, it's not their role, they are born to do what they can based on what they are according to him. ( and my warden will answer that people can choose in spite of their nature ) Women are born in a different way than men and that's how they roles were determined in the first place in the Qunari society, and why they are supposed to have different roles than men, regardless of the exceptions ( for Sten ). They can't fight according to him, his words. There is no nuance, no exceptions in his mind. Hence why he is stating that " women have no place in war, that women that wish to be men makes no sense, and that women who want to fight is as attainable as living on the moon and can only lead to frustration. "
When my female warden tells him that some women fight, that it's not universal truth, he still denies it. ( meaning that your good fighter = male for the Qunari doesn't apply to Sten, otherwise he would have immediately considered her as such instead of being confused and simply refusing to believe it, before trying to rationalize her as male because that could be the only satisfying answer with such strange thing. ) Sten is not only bothered by the fact that the warden is a woman, but also because she is a woman who fights, the same with others, NOT precisely because she acts like or is aknowledged as a woman lol. So excuse me, that seems pretty much based on physical appearance too in part ? So yes, her breasts. I mean it's implied, you guys need absolutely the word breasts mentioned ( ), to get that the physical appearance of the warden is also what bothered him in his way of thinking ? If he was used to see women who fight among men but according to you were considered as " males " , he wouldn't react that way, he wouldn't point out the difference of gender don't you think ? I mean it's obvious. He is the one bringing the issue, that keeps pointing out that the female warden, Morrigan, Wynn look like women and fight. He is questioning the female warden during all the game, it's a proof he is totally confused and lost. You don't react that way when you already have the answers. ( according to you that women who fight or good fighters are simply considered as males ) Also, I will point out again, that you win the respect of Sten AS A WOMAN AND A WARRIOR at the end of the game with high approval, this evolution, that totally makes sense with his arc only reinforces my thoughts anyway. On what basis it was decided that women couldn't be warriors - Obviously physical attributes, where obviously men have some advantages -, if not because of differences of biology ? Sounds like you made a bunch of (not unreasonable) assumptions which turned out not to be true. That happens when making inferences, sometimes. You thought that Sten was talking about boobies, but it turns out he was talking about the Warden presenting as female. "Physical attributes" isn't all that obvious when talking about Thedas. Sexual dimorphism doesn't have as much of an effect there as it does here. While in theory you could implement this in an RPG by only fiddling with the top end of the bell curve, so only PCs and high-level NPCs would be equal regardless of sex, this isn't how the setting works.
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Post by Iakus on May 30, 2019 16:11:44 GMT
The setting is not "rigged for retconning" (or if it is, that's a pretty sh*tty way to create a setting) THe setting IS rife with forgotten or misinterpreted history, however. That's precisely what I mean by rigged for retconning. There is no continuity in the absolute sense. Anything is subject to historical revisionism. Anything is subject to unreliable narrators (Solas). Everything is layers of the onion, and when we think we've finally gotten to the inner layer and the truth, they can just add more hidden layers, ad infinitum. They've given themselves license to change anything in established lore, in the name of forgotten/covered up/misinterpreted/lost history or trickster liars that fooled us. Since "history is a pack of lies" is the norm, not the exception, what better way could a setting be set up for arbitrary retconning at any time? First, they have said there is "deep lore" There is a "truth" behind all the misinterpretations and changes in understanding. We simply aren't privy to it it. So not all the retconning is really retconning. They are simply revealing details hidden from us up to this point. Continuity stays intact. And secondly, these changes are in understanding the distant past. Not the here and now. Changing the Qunari's understanding of gender and gender rolls is like changing the Chantry's views on male priests. Rather wtf-inducing. Simply retconning whatever the hell you want makes for a cr*ppy setting. When you can't depend on anything being "real" from one story to the next, why invest yourself in the setting? It'll just change next go-around anyway.
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Post by cankiie on May 30, 2019 17:19:47 GMT
Dragon age lore and bioware's storytelling is slowly moving in a direction of Elder Scrolls lore and Bethesda storytelling.
Horrid shit, atleast when it comes to the bigger lore.
Bethesda atleast can tell smaller, entertaining stories... sometimes.
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Post by Syv on May 30, 2019 20:47:19 GMT
Sounds like you made a bunch of (not unreasonable) assumptions which turned out not to be true. That happens when making inferences, sometimes. You thought that Sten was talking about boobies, but it turns out he was talking about the Warden presenting as female. "Physical attributes" isn't all that obvious when talking about Thedas. Sexual dimorphism doesn't have as much of an effect there as it does here. While in theory you could implement this in an RPG by only fiddling with the top end of the bell curve, so only PCs and high-level NPCs would be equal regardless of sex, this isn't how the setting works. Boobies ? What ? ... Good job. You totally missed the point. It seems the word " boobies " was important to you, more important than reading comprehension. Sten is reacting to the fact that people that look like women fight, meaning that his judgement is in part based on their appearance since he is bothered after seeing with his eyes. That is why he comes to bother every others female member, in the group about that issue, not just the warden. Sten has never seen a woman fighting before. That whole thing about " its just because they act like women " ( which doesn't mean anything ) isn't at all what triggers him, it's their physical appareance. Wynne: I do not understand. Do the Qunari have no female mages? No female warriors? Sten: Of course not. Why would our women wish to be men? It's obvious that Sten has never seen people that look like women fighting, not even mages, so with female attributes, so yeah, " BOOBIES " if that's what triggers you so much ( yeah because women have boobs ? ), before the warden or any other member of the group. Sten : I don't understand you look like a woman. You are a grey warden, so it follows that you can't be a woman. And I already said ( but again reading comprehension ) that Sten was bothered by the fact that the warden was female, as much as he was bothered that a woman fights. Probably because that didn't happen where he comes from, at least in DAO. I posted my previous conversation where my female warden is forced to defend herself as a woman who fights, which was a conversation that went beyond being a warden, and that he denies. As for your last sentence, I'm just going to lol and I'm not going to touch that. Okay ? Whatever the hell you want dude.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 30, 2019 22:20:34 GMT
First, they have said there is "deep lore" There is a "truth" behind all the misinterpretations and changes in understanding. We simply aren't privy to it it. I’ll take your word for that, though I wouldn’t mind a citation, as this is the first I’ve heard of such a claim. Suffice to say, I’m deeply skeptical. Maybe some of the big revisions, like the true history of Arlathan, were planned out in advance and the onion layers stop there, but every revision and overthrow? I doubt it. Like Leiliana’s resurrection? Fiona being cured of the taint? The Ameridan cover up? I think they pulled those out of their asses as the need arose. I don’t see any difference. It’s all revisionism or putting too much trust in an unreliable narrator, e.g., Sten. I couldn’t agree more. Which is why I don’t waste my time with rhetorical arguments about lore, because it’s all subject to change.
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Post by colfoley on May 30, 2019 22:24:05 GMT
First, they have said there is "deep lore" There is a "truth" behind all the misinterpretations and changes in understanding. We simply aren't privy to it it. I’ll take your word for that, though I wouldn’t mind a citation, as this is the first I’ve heard of such a claim. Suffice to say, I’m deeply skeptical. Maybe some of the big revisions, like the true history of Arlathan, were planned out in advance and the onion layers stop there, but every revision and overthrow? I doubt it. Like Leiliana’s resurrection? Fiona being cured of the taint? The Ameridan cover up? I think they pulled those out of their asses as the need arose. I don’t see any difference. It’s all revisionism or putting too much trust in an unreliable narrator, e.g., Sten. I couldn’t agree more. Which is why I don’t waste my time with rhetorical arguments about lore, because it’s all subject to change. honestly though how much of real life history is unknown, misinterpreted, or just a plain lie?
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 31, 2019 0:08:23 GMT
Lol, receiving information that contradicts previous assumed "knowledge" is not a retcon. It's called Every Fantasy/Sci-Fi Story That Ever Fucking Existed.
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Post by melbella on May 31, 2019 1:27:06 GMT
Lol, receiving information that contradicts previous assumed "knowledge" is not a retcon. It's called Every Fantasy/Sci-Fi Story That Ever Fucking Existed. Could also be called "history."
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 31, 2019 3:15:02 GMT
Lol, receiving information that contradicts previous assumed "knowledge" is not a retcon. It's called Every Fantasy/Sci-Fi Story That Ever Fucking Existed. Could also be called "history." I mean, sure. But revelations about the history/nature/established lore of society and the world are such a standard feature of fantasy and science fiction, that not only should they NOT be upsetting, they should be EXPECTED, especially from BioWare, it is literally their only move. Which makes all the bad-faith bleating about retcons especially egregious here. Using this """logic""", I could argue that the Profane are a retcon because nothing in DA:O indicated that they existed. Like, if anyone picked up DA:O expecting that everything it was going to tell you was the complete, fundamental truth of that fictional universe, and no new or contradictory information would ever be presented, then I'm really sorry they spent their entire life up to then chained up in a basement, and I hope they can move past that trauma.
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Post by colfoley on May 31, 2019 4:29:35 GMT
Could also be called "history." I mean, sure. But revelations about the history/nature/established lore of society and the world are such a standard feature of fantasy and science fiction, that not only should they NOT be upsetting, they should be EXPECTED, especially from BioWare, it is literally their only move. Which makes all the bad-faith bleating about retcons especially egregious here. Using this """logic""", I could argue that the Profane are a retcon because nothing in DA:O indicated that they existed. Like, if anyone picked up DA:O expecting that everything it was going to tell you was the complete, fundamental truth of that fictional universe, and no new or contradictory information would ever be presented, then I'm really sorry they spent their entire life up to then chained up in a basement, and I hope they can move past that trauma. you have a point. Mass effect gave us the Reapers and especially leviathan.
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Post by coldsteelblue on May 31, 2019 10:20:34 GMT
Not read all of this thread, but this thing on Qunari women & how Sten says one thing & Bull says another, well, could it not simply be the Sten changed things when he became the Arishok? After all, it is the military arm of the Qunari you guys are talking about, overseen by the Arishok, so maybe, when he saw women fighting during the blight he brought that back. The fighters are still refered to as male, as per tradition, but women are now also allowed into the role.
Just my thoughts
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pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 31, 2019 13:44:48 GMT
Not read all of this thread, but this thing on Qunari women & how Sten says one thing & Bull says another, well, could it not simply be the Sten changed things when he became the Arishok? After all, it is the military arm of the Qunari you guys are talking about, overseen by the Arishok, so maybe, when he saw women fighting during the blight he brought that back. The fighters are still refered to as male, as per tradition, but women are now also allowed into the role. Just my thoughts According to DA Wiki, the Qunari already had a concept they call "Aqun-Athlok"; born as one gender but living as another. Has anyone floated the possibility that Sten sees the female party members as 'women' purely because they refer to themselves as such? They call themselves 'women', therefore they should not be warriors. Krem refers to himself as a 'man', therefore there is no conflict. Also worth noting: Sten is a stranger to the mainland of Thedas, and prior to meeting us, has spent most of his time there as a prisoner. It's not likely that he would have an in-depth understanding of Thedas society or gender constructs. Iron Bull, however, has been in Thedas for a few years at least, long enough to form significant relationships with outsiders, and as a spy his job is to collect and understand as much about non-Qunari society as he can.
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slimgrin727
I don't stir, I work the material.
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slimgrin727
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Post by slimgrin727 on May 31, 2019 14:01:46 GMT
Could also be called "history." I mean, sure. But revelations about the history/nature/established lore of society and the world are such a standard feature of fantasy and science fiction, that not only should they NOT be upsetting, they should be EXPECTED, especially from BioWare, it is literally their only move. Which makes all the bad-faith bleating about retcons especially egregious here. Using this """logic""", I could argue that the Profane are a retcon because nothing in DA:O indicated that they existed. Like, if anyone picked up DA:O expecting that everything it was going to tell you was the complete, fundamental truth of that fictional universe, and no new or contradictory information would ever be presented, then I'm really sorry they spent their entire life up to then chained up in a basement, and I hope they can move past that trauma. That's just bad writing. And no, not all fantasy suffers from the same inconsistencies Bioware has.
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on May 31, 2019 15:27:35 GMT
Not read all of this thread, but this thing on Qunari women & how Sten says one thing & Bull says another, well, could it not simply be the Sten changed things when he became the Arishok? After all, it is the military arm of the Qunari you guys are talking about, overseen by the Arishok, so maybe, when he saw women fighting during the blight he brought that back. The fighters are still refered to as male, as per tradition, but women are now also allowed into the role. Just my thoughts According to DA Wiki, the Qunari already had a concept they call "Aqun-Athlok"; born as one gender but living as another. Has anyone floated the possibility that Sten sees the female party members as 'women' purely because they refer to themselves as such? They call themselves 'women', therefore they should not be warriors. Krem refers to himself as a 'man', therefore there is no conflict. Also worth noting: Sten is a stranger to the mainland of Thedas, and prior to meeting us, has spent most of his time there as a prisoner. It's not likely that he would have an in-depth understanding of Thedas society or gender constructs. Iron Bull, however, has been in Thedas for a few years at least, long enough to form significant relationships with outsiders, and as a spy his job is to collect and understand as much about non-Qunari society as he can. Because under the Qun, individuals have no personal identity. Even their "names" are more job descriptions or titles. "Sten" wasn't a name, it was his military rank. It doesn't matter what you identify as, you are whatever the hell the Tamassrans say you are and you either get with the program or you're reeducated/qamek-ed till you're converted or your brain falls out. That's the horror of Qunari life, you don't get a say in who or what you are. You are TOLD that by outside forces. Bull's light and fluffy take on how tolerant they are is just that, Bull.
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papacharlie9
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 31, 2019 18:50:10 GMT
Lol, receiving information that contradicts previous assumed "knowledge" is not a retcon. It's called Every Fantasy/Sci-Fi Story That Ever Fucking Existed. If it was planned in advance, sure. I’m skeptical about just how much was planned in advance, though. Even if all of it was planned in advance, every succeeding revelation has a “ha ha fooled you again” effect that undermines trust in any of the lore. Using that trick too much puts the whole continuity under suspicion.
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Post by colfoley on May 31, 2019 19:33:21 GMT
Lol, receiving information that contradicts previous assumed "knowledge" is not a retcon. It's called Every Fantasy/Sci-Fi Story That Ever Fucking Existed. If it was planned in advance, sure. I’m skeptical about just how much was planned in advance, though. Even if all of it was planned in advance, every succeeding revelation has a “ha ha fooled you again” effect that undermines trust in any of the lore. Using that trick too much puts the whole continuity under suspicion. so? And yes I think its obvious that most of DAs writing... at least in regards to Origins... is backloaded. I've read... and can believe... that originally DA O was supposed to be its own thing. I've also read that they now tend to start planning things out two games in advance.
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Syv
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syv
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Post by Syv on May 31, 2019 22:15:58 GMT
According to DA Wiki, the Qunari already had a concept they call "Aqun-Athlok"; born as one gender but living as another. Has anyone floated the possibility that Sten sees the female party members as 'women' purely because they refer to themselves as such? They call themselves 'women', therefore they should not be warriors. Krem refers to himself as a 'man', therefore there is no conflict. Also worth noting: Sten is a stranger to the mainland of Thedas, and prior to meeting us, has spent most of his time there as a prisoner. It's not likely that he would have an in-depth understanding of Thedas society or gender constructs. Iron Bull, however, has been in Thedas for a few years at least, long enough to form significant relationships with outsiders, and as a spy his job is to collect and understand as much about non-Qunari society as he can. Because under the Qun, individuals have no personal identity. Even their "names" are more job descriptions or titles. "Sten" wasn't a name, it was his military rank. It doesn't matter what you identify as, you are whatever the hell the Tamassrans say you are and you either get with the program or you're reeducated/qamek-ed till you're converted or your brain falls out. That's the horror of Qunari life, you don't get a say in who or what you are. You are TOLD that by outside forces. Bull's light and fluffy take on how tolerant they are is just that, Bull. Yeah, that's the thing. Where suddenly comes from that weirdness where Qunari now accept self identification ? Individuals in the Qun have no personality ( unlike the tal vahots ) , why what you identify as and your personal identity would suddenly matter ? Like you said, you don't get to say in who or what you are. You couldn't even have a name. The Qunari demands from you and tells your name. It was consistent like that in both DAO and DA:II. The qunari rigid as fuck believe people are born a certain way, and they are assigned tasks based and purposes on how they are best believed to serve the Qun. It is an intolerant and unaccommodating society that does not care for the personal feelings or beliefs of its subjects. Not even children can have a break. The Qun is demanding with them too. Sten : what were they doing ? It didn't sound like they were having any purpose. Warden : Don't tell me qunari children are always serious ? Sten : When do they have time to waste on foolishness ? They have much to learn. Warden : What do Qunari children do, if they don't play ? Sten : They study warden : What do they study ? Sten : They learn their place in the world. Seems like the control is tight and there is little place for anything else than their purpose for the Qun. Also another interesting thing : Warden: Do you find Ferelden very strange? Sten: To put it lightly. No one has a place here. Your farmers wish to be merchants. The merchants dream of being nobles, and the nobles become warriors. No one is content to be who they are. Warden: Don't the qunari ever want to change their lot in life? Sten: What does that accomplish? The farmer who buys a shop is never a merchant: He is always a farmer-turned-merchant. He carries his old life with him as a turtle carries its shell. Warden: Maybe he was meant to be a merchant. Sten: Meant by whom? And if that were, indeed, his purpose, why did that mysterious source of meaning not make him so to begin with. That also seemed to indicate that in the qunari society from his POV, once your your place is decided, it's not an usual thing to change, what was determined the first time, doesn't change because you want to, it's not for you to decide, to each its place and purpose. ( Interesting to see that even if a farmer has succeeded to become a merchant, Sten doesn't change his mind about him being a farmer. It's that rigid. ) If you are unhappy, if you resist, you are reeducated. Why would that be different for gender and people feeling like they are someone else compared to their natural attributes ? Yet suddenly in Inquisition, the Qunari for a reason no one knows have become a flexible and pratical society, adapting to the wishes of some individuals. First we have : Cassandra: I am surprised you accept fighting at a woman's side, Bull. I understood qunari women didn't fight. The Iron Bull: If a qunari women really wants to fight and has a gift for it, she becomes an Aqun-athlok. The Aqun-athlok joins the warriors and is treated as a male. He becomes... a guy, for all intents and purposes. Huh ? What ? If she really wants ? So now individuals have a word ? They get to choose ? And then Krem : The Iron Bull: Krem would be an Aqun-athlok. That's what we call someone born one gender but living like another. Krem: And qunari don't treat those Aqun people any different than a real man? The Iron Bull: They are real men, just like you are. Bull speaks of the Qunari like they are suddenly tolerant for those that choose to live in another way than their nature ( why they would accept that ? He doesn't even explain the reasoning behind that decision, how convenient. ) , their society taking into account the wishes and beliefs of individuals ( I see myself as a woman so the Qun must accomodate and has to see me as a woman, I see myself as a man, so the Qun has to see me as a man ) , as if that was a norm, an usual pratice established, with even a specific title for them. why aren't they simply reeducated ? We radically went from Sten that kept saying things like why would women ever wish to be men, people don't get to choose, they simply are, to that. That's just too lol for me.
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