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Post by Syv on May 31, 2019 22:24:32 GMT
Lol, receiving information that contradicts previous assumed "knowledge" is not a retcon. It's called Every Fantasy/Sci-Fi Story That Ever Fucking Existed. If it was planned in advance, sure. I’m skeptical about just how much was planned in advance, though. Even if all of it was planned in advance, every succeeding revelation has a “ha ha fooled you again” effect that undermines trust in any of the lore. Using that trick too much puts the whole continuity under suspicion. I don't really believe that the writers planned in advance the transgender issue when they wrote the Qunari in DAO more than 10-13- 15 years ago or even thought a little about it. It's something they added and that came to their mind way after. The transgender issue and representation is not something that normally and usually come to the minds of the writers overall, especially in the video game department, when it's their first game, and that their game is first based on a medieval setting quite realistic and obviously inspired from history, with basically a bit the same rules while they had their own ideas. Especially that Patrick Weekes who wrote Bull and Krem wasn't even there before DA:I. The writers can evolve, especially when we talk about difference of years, as much as their POV, story and lore can evolve with them.
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Post by slimgrin727 on May 31, 2019 23:53:46 GMT
Based Syv is bringing down the logic here, lol.
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Post by Iakus on May 31, 2019 23:58:28 GMT
Because under the Qun, individuals have no personal identity. Even their "names" are more job descriptions or titles. "Sten" wasn't a name, it was his military rank. It doesn't matter what you identify as, you are whatever the hell the Tamassrans say you are and you either get with the program or you're reeducated/qamek-ed till you're converted or your brain falls out. That's the horror of Qunari life, you don't get a say in who or what you are. You are TOLD that by outside forces. Bull's light and fluffy take on how tolerant they are is just that, Bull. Yeah, that's the thing. Where suddenly comes from that weirdness where Qunari now accept self identification ? Individuals in the Qun have no personality ( unlike the tal vahots ) , why what you identify as and your personal identity would suddenly matter ? Like you said, you don't get to say in who or what you are. You couldn't even have a name. The Qunari demands from you and tells your name. It was consistent like that in both DAO and DA:II. The qunari rigid as fuck believe people are born a certain way, and they are assigned tasks based and purposes on how they are best believed to serve the Qun. It is an intolerant and unaccommodating society that does not care for the personal feelings or beliefs of its subjects. Not even children can have a break. The Qun is demanding with them too. Sten : what were they doing ? It didn't sound like they were having any purpose. Warden : Don't tell me qunari children are always serious ? Sten : When do they have time to waste on foolishness ? They have much to learn. Warden : What do Qunari children do, if they don't play ? Sten : They study warden : What do they study ? Sten : They learn their place in the world. Seems like the control is tight and there is little place for anything else than their purpose for the Qun. Also another interesting thing : Warden: Do you find Ferelden very strange? Sten: To put it lightly. No one has a place here. Your farmers wish to be merchants. The merchants dream of being nobles, and the nobles become warriors. No one is content to be who they are. Warden: Don't the qunari ever want to change their lot in life? Sten: What does that accomplish? The farmer who buys a shop is never a merchant: He is always a farmer-turned-merchant. He carries his old life with him as a turtle carries its shell. Warden: Maybe he was meant to be a merchant. Sten: Meant by whom? And if that were, indeed, his purpose, why did that mysterious source of meaning not make him so to begin with. That also seemed to indicate that in the qunari society from his POV, once your your place is decided, it's not an usual thing to change, what was determined the first time, doesn't change because you want to, it's not for you to decide, to each its place and purpose. ( Interesting to see that even if a farmer has succeeded to become a merchant, Sten doesn't change his mind about him being a farmer. It's that rigid. ) If you are unhappy, if you resist, you are reeducated. Why would that be different for gender and people feeling like they are someone else compared to their natural attributes ? Yet suddenly in Inquisition, the Qunari for a reason no one knows have become a flexible and pratical society, adapting to the wishes of some individuals. First we have : Cassandra: I am surprised you accept fighting at a woman's side, Bull. I understood qunari women didn't fight. The Iron Bull: If a qunari women really wants to fight and has a gift for it, she becomes an Aqun-athlok. The Aqun-athlok joins the warriors and is treated as a male. He becomes... a guy, for all intents and purposes. Huh ? What ? If she really wants ? So now individuals have a word ? They get to choose ? And then Krem : The Iron Bull: Krem would be an Aqun-athlok. That's what we call someone born one gender but living like another. Krem: And qunari don't treat those Aqun people any different than a real man? The Iron Bull: They are real men, just like you are. Bull speaks of the Qunari like they are suddenly tolerant for those that choose to live in another way than their nature ( why they would accept that ? He doesn't even explain the reasoning behind that decision, how convenient. ) , their society taking into account the wishes and beliefs of individuals ( I see myself as a woman so the Qun must accomodate and has to see me as a woman, I see myself as a man, so the Qun has to see me as a man ) , as if that was a norm, an usual pratice established, with even a specific title for them. why aren't they simply reeducated ? We radically went from Sten that kept saying things like why would women ever wish to be men, people don't get to choose, they simply are, to that. That's just too lol for me. Iron Bull was a good character. But a terrible Qunari.
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Post by cankiie on Jun 1, 2019 0:45:19 GMT
And now I do not get why the writers would feel that need to somehow make the Qun more inclusive, more palatable. What is wrong with having an ideology/religion/culture/what-the-fuck-ever like the Qun in a fantasy world? Are the writers or other people going to be so incredibly butt-hurt about it? Oh, right
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Post by slimgrin727 on Jun 1, 2019 1:03:31 GMT
And now I do not get why the writers would feel that need to somehow make the Qun more inclusive, more palatable. What is wrong with having an ideology/religion/culture/what-the-fuck-ever like the Qun in a fantasy world? Are the writers or other people going to be so incredibly butt-hurt about it? Oh, right It's about challenging the player but doing it without being preachy. Sten, and other DA:O characters did that.
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Post by yogsothoth on Jun 1, 2019 3:09:27 GMT
Not read all of this thread, but this thing on Qunari women & how Sten says one thing & Bull says another, well, could it not simply be the Sten changed things when he became the Arishok? After all, it is the military arm of the Qunari you guys are talking about, overseen by the Arishok, so maybe, when he saw women fighting during the blight he brought that back. The fighters are still refered to as male, as per tradition, but women are now also allowed into the role. Just my thoughts The Tamassrans control role assignments, and they fall under the Ariqun, not the Arishok. We don't know exactly how much sway each branch has on the other, but I doubt the Arishok has any say on who joins the army.
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Post by cankiie on Jun 1, 2019 3:58:46 GMT
And now I do not get why the writers would feel that need to somehow make the Qun more inclusive, more palatable. What is wrong with having an ideology/religion/culture/what-the-fuck-ever like the Qun in a fantasy world? Are the writers or other people going to be so incredibly butt-hurt about it? Oh, right It's about challenging the player but doing it without being preachy. Sten, and other DA:O characters did that. More like retconning from what I logically can perceive. Now, a more proper explanation would be that Iron Bull just, indeed, happened to be a big softie and he made up interpretations, lies if you will, to justify Krem. Rather than actually challenging Krem and thus possibly undergo more discussions with the Inquisitor (Who may or may not, it is important to give choices here, want to try and speak for Krem) similar to how Sten challenged the female warden. Now, THAT is a challenge, and a possibility to, if the right dialogue options (Like in Kotor2) was chosen, give more story information, more lore. Kotor2 did exceptionally well on that part, you do not pass speech-skills-challenges to get more information, nooo, you read the NPC in front of you and you read your own responses to what the NPC said and try to determine what will drive the NPC to tell you more. For now, the only logical explanation to the mess is that Iron Bull was just a big softie and felt he had to lie.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 1, 2019 6:39:43 GMT
I mean, sure. But revelations about the history/nature/established lore of society and the world are such a standard feature of fantasy and science fiction, that not only should they NOT be upsetting, they should be EXPECTED, especially from BioWare, it is literally their only move. Which makes all the bad-faith bleating about retcons especially egregious here. Using this """logic""", I could argue that the Profane are a retcon because nothing in DA:O indicated that they existed. Like, if anyone picked up DA:O expecting that everything it was going to tell you was the complete, fundamental truth of that fictional universe, and no new or contradictory information would ever be presented, then I'm really sorry they spent their entire life up to then chained up in a basement, and I hope they can move past that trauma. That's just bad writing. And no, not all fantasy suffers from the same inconsistencies Bioware has. It's bad writing to NOT tell you everything about a fantasy world right away? You realise that makes literally everything, including LOTR and GOT, terrible according to you? Not to mention it would mean most fantasy could not even be written, since uncovering mysteries is the nature of the plot in nearly every single one. Secondly, you don't actually know what an inconsistency is. New information is NOT AN INCONSISTENTCY. Characters can lie, or make incorrect assumptions, that's not "inconsistency", that's fucking basic storytelling. By your argument, nobody would be allowed to write a mystery story AT ALL, because nobody would be allowed to lie or disagree or contradict anythjng that was said previously.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 1, 2019 6:42:14 GMT
According to DA Wiki, the Qunari already had a concept they call "Aqun-Athlok"; born as one gender but living as another. Has anyone floated the possibility that Sten sees the female party members as 'women' purely because they refer to themselves as such? They call themselves 'women', therefore they should not be warriors. Krem refers to himself as a 'man', therefore there is no conflict. Also worth noting: Sten is a stranger to the mainland of Thedas, and prior to meeting us, has spent most of his time there as a prisoner. It's not likely that he would have an in-depth understanding of Thedas society or gender constructs. Iron Bull, however, has been in Thedas for a few years at least, long enough to form significant relationships with outsiders, and as a spy his job is to collect and understand as much about non-Qunari society as he can. Because under the Qun, individuals have no personal identity. Even their "names" are more job descriptions or titles. "Sten" wasn't a name, it was his military rank. It doesn't matter what you identify as, you are whatever the hell the Tamassrans say you are and you either get with the program or you're reeducated/qamek-ed till you're converted or your brain falls out. That's the horror of Qunari life, you don't get a say in who or what you are. You are TOLD that by outside forces. Bull's light and fluffy take on how tolerant they are is just that, Bull. What does Iron Bull say that implies the Qun are tolerant? He didn't say that individuals get to choose their own gender.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 1, 2019 13:40:27 GMT
How has it been several years and people are still talking about this completely irrelevant thing that matters NIL in the grand scheme of Dragon Age's story, and it certainly doesn't change much about the qunari either just because a guy who has experienced life beyond the Qun and whose job is to lie, said something that sort of goes against what was previously learned from another qunari.
Boohoo.
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Post by Polka Dot on Jun 1, 2019 14:07:18 GMT
How has it been several years and people are still talking about this completely irrelevant thing that matters NIL in the grand scheme of Dragon Age's story, and it certainly doesn't change much about the qunari either just because a guy who has experienced life beyond the Qun and whose job is to lie, said something that sort of goes against what was previously learned from another qunari. Boohoo. The real problem is that they apparently made a metric crapton of assumptions and inferences based on their own personal filters and their interpretation of the world in which they live and then insist on applying them to a fantasy world. All based on conversations with one individual.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 1, 2019 17:13:51 GMT
Because under the Qun, individuals have no personal identity. Even their "names" are more job descriptions or titles. "Sten" wasn't a name, it was his military rank. It doesn't matter what you identify as, you are whatever the hell the Tamassrans say you are and you either get with the program or you're reeducated/qamek-ed till you're converted or your brain falls out. That's the horror of Qunari life, you don't get a say in who or what you are. You are TOLD that by outside forces. Bull's light and fluffy take on how tolerant they are is just that, Bull. What does Iron Bull say that implies the Qun are tolerant? He didn't say that individuals get to choose their own gender. Virtually everything he says about the Qun makes it sound like just another human organization. Only, you know, better, where everyone is accepted and everyone has a place. Despite people like Cassandra, or any mage Inquisitor for that matter, being living contradictions of the Qun.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 1, 2019 18:00:36 GMT
What does Iron Bull say that implies the Qun are tolerant? He didn't say that individuals get to choose their own gender. Virtually everything he says about the Qun makes it sound like just another human organization. Only, you know, better, where everyone is accepted and everyone has a place. Despite people like Cassandra, or any mage Inquisitor for that matter, being living contradictions of the Qun. Sounds pretty reasonable to make Qun sound promising if they want to lure people into their cult, or make Qun seem like less of a threat as they plan their world domination. How do you think ISIS and islamic terrorists lure women and wives into their forces? Definitely not by telling the truth on how these women will be treated once they join.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 1, 2019 18:17:06 GMT
How has it been several years and people are still talking about this completely irrelevant thing that matters NIL in the grand scheme of Dragon Age's story, and it certainly doesn't change much about the qunari either just because a guy who has experienced life beyond the Qun and whose job is to lie, said something that sort of goes against what was previously learned from another qunari. Boohoo. The real problem is that they apparently made a metric crapton of assumptions and inferences based on their own personal filters and their interpretation of the world in which they live and then insist on applying them to a fantasy world. All based on conversations with one individual. sounds familiar to what is going on in a couple other sci fi/ fantasy stories.
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Post by Little Bengel on Jun 1, 2019 18:23:25 GMT
What does Iron Bull say that implies the Qun are tolerant? He didn't say that individuals get to choose their own gender. Virtually everything he says about the Qun makes it sound like just another human organization. Only, you know, better, where everyone is accepted and everyone has a place. Despite people like Cassandra, or any mage Inquisitor for that matter, being living contradictions of the Qun. I mean, he is also literally named "Liar" in the Qunari tongue. That's what he did at the service of the Qun... lying. In the case of the Qun, he lied and twisted the truth to make the idea of joining the Qun more palatable to outsiders. Or at least that's what we can infer.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 1, 2019 18:25:20 GMT
Virtually everything he says about the Qun makes it sound like just another human organization. Only, you know, better, where everyone is accepted and everyone has a place. Despite people like Cassandra, or any mage Inquisitor for that matter, being living contradictions of the Qun. I mean, he is also literally named "Liar" in the Qunari tongue. That's what he did at the service of the Qun... lying. In the case of the Qun, he lied and twisted the truth to make the idea of joining the Qun more palatable to outsiders. To be fair, he is only a liar if future content proves he is. But before that happens, it's a totally feasible theory that he was just lying about a lot of stuff.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 1, 2019 18:33:18 GMT
I mean, he is also literally named "Liar" in the Qunari tongue. That's what he did at the service of the Qun... lying. In the case of the Qun, he lied and twisted the truth to make the idea of joining the Qun more palatable to outsiders. To be fair, he is only a liar if future content proves he is. But before that happens, it's a totally feasible theory that he was just lying about a lot of stuff. I contend he wasn't out and out lying. Bull was great at basically lying when telling the truth... for lack of a better term. He told us he was a Qunari spy so we'd trust him...but he was still a Qunari spy. Same here. I have little doubt that the 'Aqun-athlak' is a real concept in the Qun but it's application is far from what he was describing. Since its the Qun and especially the Tamserans that decide what your role is if they liked Krem being a warrior Krem would be a warrior, if she was better as a bread cooking maid then that's tough noogies for her.
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Post by Little Bengel on Jun 1, 2019 18:35:55 GMT
Since its the Qun and especially the Tamserans that decide what your role is if they liked Krem being a warrior Krem would be a warrior, if she was better as a bread cooking maid then that's tough noogies for her.Your inner Qunari is showing.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 1, 2019 18:39:48 GMT
Since its the Qun and especially the Tamserans that decide what your role is if they liked Krem being a warrior Krem would be a warrior, if she was better as a bread cooking maid then that's tough noogies for her.Your inner Qunari is showing. I actually did that from the Qunari perspective intentionally to highlight the point. My own opinion on transgender issues not withstanding.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 1, 2019 18:49:52 GMT
It does actually highlight the point on just how bad the Qunari is, when I think about it, and how bioware didn't do much actual sugar coating.
In a 'free' society any two people can have differing perspectives on any issue (like the whole transgender...topic?). They can debate, they can argue, they can disagree... which is fine at the end of the day because nothing has to change.
But under a hyper collectivist hyper state like the qun it does not matter what any individual feels because the Qun defines who and what you are.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jun 1, 2019 20:22:29 GMT
The thing is while Iron Bull did try to portray Qun in a good light, and even with the discussion about gender, I never perceived Qun as less threatening or evil. Regardless of whether Krem would be seen as a man or not in the ranks of Qun, they are still a threat and need to be put down. That didn't change one bit.
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Post by cankiie on Jun 2, 2019 11:55:02 GMT
Same here. I have little doubt that the 'Aqun-athlak' is a real concept in the Qun but it's application is far from what he was describing. Since its the Qun and especially the Tamserans that decide what your role is if they liked Krem being a warrior Krem would be a warrior, if she was better as a bread cooking maid then that's tough noogies for her. Krem like being a warrior and thus becomes a warrior would imply a choice in what you want to be though Krem being born a woman under the Qunari would, as we first have the Qun explained and perceived throughout two games, Krem would at first have been put into the roles of a female and if Krem happened to be a good bread cooking maid they would figure it out and have Krem remain there depite what Krem wanted. Krem wanting to be a warrior and thus allowed to be a warrior is a huge choice. Sign this petition to keep the Qun a no-choice philosophy! Your sex shall determine your role in society, so says the Qun!
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Jun 2, 2019 12:39:38 GMT
Your sex shall determine your role in society, so says the Qun! That's backwards. The Qun says that your role in society determines your gender. If you have a penis but you're the best at cooking bread, well, hope you enjoy life as a baker.
You don't get a choice about it, so it's very on-brand for them.
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Post by Polka Dot on Jun 2, 2019 13:13:37 GMT
Krem being born a woman under the Qunari would, as we first have the Qun explained and perceived throughout two games, Krem would at first have been put into the roles of a female Says who? This illustrates a key assumption a lot of people here seem to be making - and frankly, I think it may be a major source of the misunderstanding. If we take Sten's words verbatim, gender is defined purely by vocational assignment. That would imply that the gender of a qunari individual is indeterminate up until the point where the Tamassran assigns that individual to a role. The point at which the Tamassran assigns vocation would be the gender reveal analogue in qunari world.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 2, 2019 14:48:00 GMT
It's hilarious how mad people are getting when it was their own fault for assuming they knew how Qunari assigned gender, despite that information not having been divulged until the third game in the series. Good thing we can just call it a retcon!
While we're on the subject, Red Lyrium is a retcon because in the first game it only came in blue. Alistair is a retcon because how can he be a bastard prince? You already told us he's a Templar! People can't be TWO things! Saying good morning is a retcon because until you said morning I thought it was evening.
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