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Post by Syv on Jun 4, 2019 20:15:22 GMT
We know that in everything there are exceptions Then what, pardon my Qun, is the motherfucking problem? Sten asserts a rule, Iron Bull introduces an exception. He doesn't say that it's common, he doesn't say that it's special or celebrated. He even states outright that a female in the warrior caste would be treated as a male "for all intents and purposes". Meaning that, if Sten were following the rules of the Qun, he would only refer to his fellow soldiers as male anyway, regardless of their biological sex. Because Bull doesn't introduce an exception, that is an hypocritical established rule, the total opposite from Sten. A pratical hypocritical thing to accept for the society without saying it, women who want to join the army are welcomed as much as men, it's just based on a dumb and ridiculous lie. He told that any woman that wants to fight, with enough skills can fight and become a warrior, just called male, while they do know they are not based on gender. The same for anyone that sees himself as a man, while having female attributes, anyone that wants to live in another way than what was chosen for them, meaning that actually the Qun accomodates to their beliefs and wishes, as individuals, and we don't know the reasoning, just the role is everything. It's not the same as Tallis, that was used as a tool, and not because she wanted to, but because an agent had an idea of how to use her for specific missions. It's him who specifically required the tammasrans to train her, not her, she didn't get to choose. Either Bull is a liar, and is portraying the Qun in a good light, either I find that very hard to believe. We went from an absolute to another. Tallis is an example of exception, ( and not even a warrior by the way ) she has been trained alone, in secret, far away from eyes, she was just a tool, with a Ben Hassrath who had a specific idea of how to use her on human lands, far away from the Qunari lands, while she was normally supposed to become a mindless laborer with the decision of the tammasrans in the qunari lands. The military and society isn't involved, and had nothing to do with her training, she is working with Ben-Hassrath, used to strangers, all non qunari.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 5, 2019 0:32:59 GMT
If Bull is a liar, then Sten is also a liar.
Sten tells us at multiple points that roles are determined by gender. He tells us at other points that they are determined by talent. He gives absolutely no answer for what would happen in a scenario where a female is more suited to the warrior caste than any other area, which MUST happen at least occasionally.
The only ways to resolve this conflicting information are 1) the explanation offered by Iron Bull 2) to believe erroneously that literally every single female will always automatically be worse at fighting than other things, no matter how much the evidence indicates otherwise.
It's not a 'retcon', it's a resolution for a pretty significant gap in the logic of Qunari society, that has been present since the very beginning. The only reason to be mad about it is if you just don't want fantasy media to acknowledge the existence of people who defy traditional gender roles.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 5, 2019 1:49:18 GMT
Secondly, we don't have nearly enough knowledge about how Qunari are raised and trained in general, let alone Sten in particular. We don't know the particulars of what he was taught in regards to gender or any other subject, or what kind of socialisation opportunities he was given Not to mention that, surprise surprise, the Qun might have different factions that interpret the Qun in different ways, some more extreme than others. Every single society that we've been introduced to in DA has had some amount of factionlism. Are the Qunari somehow immune to this? That, more than any single precept of the QUn, would make them stand out like a sore thumb in DA lore. The Bioware creatives and writers fucking love factionalism and internal political conflict. It would be incredible for them to give the Qunari a pass on that front.
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Post by phoray on Jun 5, 2019 2:03:51 GMT
Anyone who loves ME for the cover-shooter stuff and/or hates open world gaming is never going to love MEA for exploration, no matter how well done it is. MEA was marketed as an explorer game, so anyone buying it thinking it wasn't going to be one was just fooling themselves. I am amused by this. I went in and totally embraced colonizing new planets and the idea of dealing with the struggles for that-- only for that to totally peter out and get overwhelmed by the big alien force story. What I loved playing it for initially was it's side story. Damn. I just realized Odyssey did that to me too. I gotta get better at screening games...
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 5, 2019 2:04:11 GMT
A pratical hypocritical thing to accept for the society without saying it, women who want to join the army are welcomed as much as men, it's just based on a dumb and ridiculous lie. Wait, I'm confused. Which society are you talking about? What lie do you mean? The one Iron Bull told?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 5, 2019 2:23:34 GMT
Secondly, we don't have nearly enough knowledge about how Qunari are raised and trained in general, let alone Sten in particular. We don't know the particulars of what he was taught in regards to gender or any other subject, or what kind of socialisation opportunities he was given Not to mention that, surprise surprise, the Qun might have different factions that interpret the Qun in different ways, some more extreme than others. Every single society that we've been introduced to in DA has had some amount of factionlism. Are the Qunari somehow immune to this? That, more than any single precept of the QUn, would make them stand out like a sore thumb in DA lore. The Bioware creatives and writers fucking love factionalism and internal political conflict. It would be incredible for them to give the Qunari a pass on that front. Weeeeeeeell, the language and logic of the Qun allows for that, not to mention their re-education techniques, the efficacy of which we know little about. A controlling faction, if there is one, would simply say that whoever disagrees with their interpretation is 'Tal Vashoth', and therefore was never 'Qunari' in the first place. Any attempt to gauge how many Qunari are 'true believers' would be obfuscated by this use of language. To be Qunari IS to be a true believer. I can't think of a good word for it right now, but the Qunari language is very newspeak-y in the way it deliberately enforces certain ideas simply by speaking it. Similar to the way language is employed by fascists and white supremacists IRL, where if you don't fit into or agree with their rigid philosphy, you become less than human, sometimes applied retroactively.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 5, 2019 13:10:49 GMT
Secondly, we don't have nearly enough knowledge about how Qunari are raised and trained in general, let alone Sten in particular. We don't know the particulars of what he was taught in regards to gender or any other subject, or what kind of socialisation opportunities he was given Not to mention that, surprise surprise, the Qun might have different factions that interpret the Qun in different ways, some more extreme than others. Every single society that we've been introduced to in DA has had some amount of factionlism. Are the Qunari somehow immune to this? That, more than any single precept of the QUn, would make them stand out like a sore thumb in DA lore. The Bioware creatives and writers fucking love factionalism and internal political conflict. It would be incredible for them to give the Qunari a pass on that front. The Qun by its very nature abhors factions. The Qun is a single entity of which each member is a cell of the body. If you aren't of the Qun, you are Vashoth, or Tal Vashoth and get reeducated/qamkeded/killed
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Post by Syv on Jun 5, 2019 14:31:07 GMT
If Bull is a liar, then Sten is also a liar. Sten tells us at multiple points that roles are determined by gender. He tells us at other points that they are determined by talent. He gives absolutely no answer for what would happen in a scenario where a female is more suited to the warrior caste than any other area, which MUST happen at least occasionally. The only ways to resolve this conflicting information are 1) the explanation offered by Iron Bull 2) to believe erroneously that literally every single female will always automatically be worse at fighting than other things, no matter how much the evidence indicates otherwise. It's not a 'retcon', it's a resolution for a pretty significant gap in the logic of Qunari society, that has been present since the very beginning. The only reason to be mad about it is if you just don't want fantasy media to acknowledge the existence of people who defy traditional gender roles. Meh, let us agree to disagree about Sten. Nothing to do with being mad over the existence of people who defy traditional gender roles, people just think the Qunari as told in DAO and confirmed in DAII got retconned for more inclusiveness. Any other human organization doing such thing would make more sense, not with the Qunari, absolute, rigid, and uncompromising with their philosophy and way of life. At any rate the writting in DA:I wasn't satisfying at all on that issue, to explain that whole thing. It was just it's like that, without the reasoning behind. No, I don't think that concept was already in DAO, it's the opposite, it contradicts what was told. I made my peace with it anyway, so be it. I'm just always going to think that the Qunari from the original concept has disappeared in favour of another one softened for reasons out of story.Especially after having followed all the devs and writers's'statements, for months during DAII and DAI developments. Unless I 'm blowed out by the writting with the Qunari in the next game, and finally, I tell myself, " wow they fooled me, now that makes totally sense, good job Bioware." If it doesn't happen in the next game, then, I will just shrug and move on other things I like. Secondly, we don't have nearly enough knowledge about how Qunari are raised and trained in general, let alone Sten in particular. We don't know the particulars of what he was taught in regards to gender or any other subject, or what kind of socialisation opportunities he was given Not to mention that, surprise surprise, the Qun might have different factions that interpret the Qun in different ways, some more extreme than others. Every single society that we've been introduced to in DA has had some amount of factionlism. Are the Qunari somehow immune to this? That, more than any single precept of the QUn, would make them stand out like a sore thumb in DA lore. The Bioware creatives and writers fucking love factionalism and internal political conflict. It would be incredible for them to give the Qunari a pass on that front. Huh ? I think you are confusing the Qun with another generic human organization. Factionalism cannot exist, there is only one version of the Qun. All the rest is heresy and Tal Vashots. And I hope it remains that way anyway. That's what is so interesting with the Qun, it's that it's totally different, totally stranger from what we know and are used with humans, with different rules. That's what was scary. I think that's the irony with Bull. The Qun that was so fascinating and stranger, and weird with Sten, with The Arishock, suddenly becomes a little more human with Bull, which I find meh. By the Way Iron Bull was interesting as a character, but less as a Qunari. I would have liked him more if he was human. Only in Trepasser, betraying me, I truly felt he was a badass Qunari. A pratical hypocritical thing to accept for the society without saying it, women who want to join the army are welcomed as much as men, it's just based on a dumb and ridiculous lie. Wait, I'm confused. Which society are you talking about? What lie do you mean? The one Iron Bull told? I'm saying that according to Bull, as an established rule, the Qunari society accept women as much as men in the army, as warriors, based on skills (since men cannot be all skilled for the army too ), based on the dumb and ridiculous lie " that women warriors are just considered as males " while they can see they are not, just being hypocritical. If that's as simple and as stupid as that, if it's confirmed in the next game, I can only laugh about the writting, confirming me about what I think.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 5, 2019 19:20:21 GMT
Weeeeeeeell, the language and logic of the Qun allows for that, not to mention their re-education techniques, the efficacy of which we know little about. I know, and if that isn’t a setup so they can show how crypto factions get around the limitations of the language, or how the language is subverted by each faction to justify why they are the one true Qunari, I’ll be very surprised. I mean, you don’t put such an anti-social plot device out there without planning to subvert it in some way, or use it as a foil to make some kind of comment about RL society, in the same way as Newspeak. Otherwise, they’d be accused of promoting fascism.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 5, 2019 19:26:19 GMT
I'm saying that according to Bull, as an established rule, the Qunari society accept women as much as men in the army, as warriors, based on skills (since men cannot be all skilled for the army too ), based on the dumb and ridiculous lie " that women warriors are just considered as males " while they can see they are not, just being hypocritical. Thanks, that cleared things up for me. So the fact that the Qun is so extreme and scary isn’t enough cover to admit this see woman as man mental gymnastics? I mean, maybe this whole “you are your job” is a direct result of the language of the Qun?
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Post by vertigomez on Jun 5, 2019 20:59:55 GMT
Secondly, we don't have nearly enough knowledge about how Qunari are raised and trained in general, let alone Sten in particular. We don't know the particulars of what he was taught in regards to gender or any other subject, or what kind of socialisation opportunities he was given Not to mention that, surprise surprise, the Qun might have different factions that interpret the Qun in different ways, some more extreme than others. Every single society that we've been introduced to in DA has had some amount of factionlism. Are the Qunari somehow immune to this? That, more than any single precept of the QUn, would make them stand out like a sore thumb in DA lore. The Bioware creatives and writers fucking love factionalism and internal political conflict. It would be incredible for them to give the Qunari a pass on that front. Speaking of factionalism within the Qun... "I thought about leaving (...) If I leave, the parts of the Qun that I don't like are never going to change."Between this and little things like the baker sneaking extra sugar into bread as an act of defiance, I wouldn't be surprised if there's some kind of, uh, "Protestant Reformation" in the Qun eventually. Not necessarily in DA4. But the seeds are there.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 5, 2019 21:01:11 GMT
Weeeeeeeell, the language and logic of the Qun allows for that, not to mention their re-education techniques, the efficacy of which we know little about. I know, and if that isn’t a setup so they can show how crypto factions get around the limitations of the language, or how the language is subverted by each faction to justify why they are the one true Qunari, I’ll be very surprised. I mean, you don’t put such an anti-social plot device out there without planning to subvert it in some way, or use it as a foil to make some kind of comment about RL society, in the same way as Newspeak. Otherwise, they’d be accused of promoting fascism. The subversion, I suspect, is going to be their rumored dragon heritage. There's probably some truth that early Qunari messed with dragon blood/blood magic and made themselves kinda...dragony. Which led to all sorts of wild animalistic aggressiveness which is why "they had to leave" As a result, they need an extremely rigid set of well-defined rules as well as steely discipline to keep themselves functional. Thus the Qun and why Koslun is so revered, he found a way to save the Qunari. And why Tal Vashoth so often revert to barbarism. May even explin why hornless quanri are considered special: they are a genetic throwback to before they changed, a reminder of what they used to be, even if tehy no longer really remember what that was.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 22:38:17 GMT
Not to mention that, surprise surprise, the Qun might have different factions that interpret the Qun in different ways, some more extreme than others. Every single society that we've been introduced to in DA has had some amount of factionlism. Are the Qunari somehow immune to this? That, more than any single precept of the QUn, would make them stand out like a sore thumb in DA lore. The Bioware creatives and writers fucking love factionalism and internal political conflict. It would be incredible for them to give the Qunari a pass on that front. Speaking of factionalism within the Qun... "I thought about leaving (...) If I leave, the parts of the Qun that I don't like are never going to change."Between this and little things like the baker sneaking extra sugar into bread as an act of defiance, I wouldn't be surprised if there's some kind of, uh, "Protestant Reformation" in the Qun eventually. Not necessarily in DA4. But the seeds are there. Don't forget Bull's old Tamrassan was happy that he escaped the Qun: (If the Inquisitor sided with Iron Bull during the Demands of the Qun quest.) Cole: "Tama, how will I follow the Qun?" Her hands, strong but gentle, ruffles stubs where the horns will be. Cole: "You are strong, and your mind is sharp. You will solve problems others cannot." She smiles, but sadly. Iron Bull: Looks like my old Tamassran was wrong. Bet she's pissed one of her kids went Tal-Vashoth. Cole: Agents with hushed tones. Eyes stinging, forms to fill out, course corrections, reduce risk of similar losses. Cole: I remember the little boy, too wise, eager to help. Words break in small secret spaces. He got away. He got away. Iron Bull: How could you know that? You've never even met her. Cole: Your hurt touches hers. Iron Bull: Well, that's, uh, creepy. But... thanks.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 5, 2019 23:21:30 GMT
Not to mention that, surprise surprise, the Qun might have different factions that interpret the Qun in different ways, some more extreme than others. Every single society that we've been introduced to in DA has had some amount of factionlism. Are the Qunari somehow immune to this? That, more than any single precept of the QUn, would make them stand out like a sore thumb in DA lore. The Bioware creatives and writers fucking love factionalism and internal political conflict. It would be incredible for them to give the Qunari a pass on that front. The Qun by its very nature abhors factions. The Qun is a single entity of which each member is a cell of the body. If you aren't of the Qun, you are Vashoth, or Tal Vashoth and get reeducated/qamkeded/killed Did you know that, in stories, characters can say things about the world and society they live in that aren't true.
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Post by TabithaTH on Jun 6, 2019 13:30:34 GMT
Speaking of factionalism within the Qun...
"I thought about leaving (...) If I leave, the parts of the Qun that I don't like are never going to change."Between this and little things like the baker sneaking extra sugar into bread as an act of defiance, I wouldn't be surprised if there's some kind of, uh, "Protestant Reformation" in the Qun eventually. Not necessarily in DA4. But the seeds are there. I just had terrible vision where they intend for the PC to decide whether the Qun suddenly gets reformed over night or not... that would be horrible .
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 6, 2019 19:50:30 GMT
I know, and if that isn’t a setup so they can show how crypto factions get around the limitations of the language, or how the language is subverted by each faction to justify why they are the one true Qunari, I’ll be very surprised. I mean, you don’t put such an anti-social plot device out there without planning to subvert it in some way, or use it as a foil to make some kind of comment about RL society, in the same way as Newspeak. Otherwise, they’d be accused of promoting fascism. The subversion, I suspect, is going to be their rumored dragon heritage. There's probably some truth that early Qunari messed with dragon blood/blood magic and made themselves kinda...dragony. Which led to all sorts of wild animalistic aggressiveness which is why "they had to leave" As a result, they need an extremely rigid set of well-defined rules as well as steely discipline to keep themselves functional. Thus the Qun and why Koslun is so revered, he found a way to save the Qunari. And why Tal Vashoth so often revert to barbarism. May even explin why hornless quanri are considered special: they are a genetic throwback to before they changed, a reminder of what they used to be, even if tehy no longer really remember what that was. Kind of a copy/paste of Star Trek Vulcans? I mean, I don’t dislike the idea, it makes a lot of sense. It does kind of beg the comparison, though.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 7, 2019 0:04:00 GMT
Speaking of factionalism within the Qun...
"I thought about leaving (...) If I leave, the parts of the Qun that I don't like are never going to change."Between this and little things like the baker sneaking extra sugar into bread as an act of defiance, I wouldn't be surprised if there's some kind of, uh, "Protestant Reformation" in the Qun eventually. Not necessarily in DA4. But the seeds are there. I just had terrible vision where they intend for the PC to decide whether the Qun suddenly gets reformed over night or not... that would be horrible . That would be awful. I'm only interested in wiping that shit out once and for all.
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Post by masterwarderz on Jun 7, 2019 1:45:30 GMT
Secondly, we don't have nearly enough knowledge about how Qunari are raised and trained in general, let alone Sten in particular. We don't know the particulars of what he was taught in regards to gender or any other subject, or what kind of socialisation opportunities he was given Not to mention that, surprise surprise, the Qun might have different factions that interpret the Qun in different ways Considering the dogmatic totalitarian theists that the people are inspired from, I find that notion unlikely. Especially considering just how the Qunari presented in the prior entries dealt with notions that challenged the Qun, no its far more plausible to merely excuse it as a Retcon imposed by BioWare to pretty up their Ottoman proxy.
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Post by masterwarderz on Jun 7, 2019 1:46:55 GMT
The Qun by its very nature abhors factions. The Qun is a single entity of which each member is a cell of the body. If you aren't of the Qun, you are Vashoth, or Tal Vashoth and get reeducated/qamkeded/killed Did you know that, in stories, characters can say things about the world and society they live in that aren't true. Did you know that in stories, that later entries into series can try to shift things from how they were prior without explanation and those are called retcons.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 7, 2019 1:59:54 GMT
Did you know that, in stories, characters can say things about the world and society they live in that aren't true. Did you know that in stories, that later entries into series can try to shift things from how they were prior without explanation and those are called retcons. They did explain it, that's why you're mad. A "retcon" would be if they'd introduced a platoon of female Sten after previously saying females couldn't be soldiers, and didn't tell us why this platoon was allowed. What they did instead, was introduce a Qun-specific concept of gender fluidity, called Aqun-Athlok, which differs from the concept of transgender in at least one extremely important way. Explanation is literally the ONLY thing they gave us.
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Post by masterwarderz on Jun 7, 2019 17:15:19 GMT
Did you know that in stories, that later entries into series can try to shift things from how they were prior without explanation and those are called retcons. They did explain it, that's why you're mad. You seem filled with more anger then I defending this retcon to be honest, I mean you continually assert it isn't even a retcon when it clearly is. Are you so against people having differing opinions that when someone who disagrees with you it induces so much mind numbing rage? ._. If that is the case, I do believe life will prove difficult for you.
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Post by biggydx on Jun 7, 2019 17:43:48 GMT
Whelp... it only took us getting to the second page of this thread before this whole thing devolved into an argument hashed out more than four years ago.
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pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 8, 2019 2:16:05 GMT
They did explain it, that's why you're mad. You seem filled with more anger then I defending this retcon to be honest, I mean you continually assert it isn't even a retcon when it clearly is. Are you so against people having differing opinions that when someone who disagrees with you it induces so much mind numbing rage? ._. If that is the case, I do believe life will prove difficult for you. It's not a retcon. I've explained in detail why it's not a retcon. Neither you nor anyone who disagrees with me has actually engaged with my argument, or the evidence I drew purely from DAO with no content from DAI whatsoever, which demonstrated that Sten's comments about sex/gender roles were always vague and inconsistent. Because the truth is, even if it were a retcon, it wouldn't matter. You don't give a shit about retcon, or realism, or verismilitude, or internal logic and consistency. Sten could have BEEN aqun-athlok, and you'd still be bitching about it. [redacted for the purpose of bringing the discussion to an end for now. SJ]
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Not a jockey. Has a sofa.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jun 8, 2019 8:11:03 GMT
Whelp... it only took us getting to the second page of this thread before this whole thing devolved into an argument hashed out more than four years ago. Indeed...
We're taking a rest here because: - While retcons and/or gender identity politics are legitimate topics (if discussed without slurs, insults and bad faith) in Dragon Age,
- The matter appears to have railroaded this discussion about the future of DA4 to the exclusion of all else.
- Whilst many parts of the discussion have been civil, we've had repeated complaints about the thread and have made several interventions to help to keep it civil and tolerant.
So I'm calling a halt to it for now. - The topics aren't out of bounds, so may return in the future.
- But for now at least, I think we're done here.
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