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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2019 22:48:34 GMT
Just like the Citadel couldn't even beef up its defenses after being clearly involved in a war for more than two years. Just like the colony on Horizon was basically defenseless even after the Alliance gave the "a big gun that couldn't shoot straight." And we certainly didn't see any other ground to air defenses during that run. The cutscene shows Ashley/Kaidan being the only individual in possession of even a firearm to shoot at the bugs. It's not like the citizens there even wanted the defenses because they left for the Terminus to get away from all that (the Alliance). Again with the 'that it happened in the trilogy as well' comment. I'm surprised you even like the game. It's obvious the game didn't do anything better than the trilogy. But you don't care as long as the game didn't take place in the Milky Way. I doubt you wouldn't care how poor a sequel might be as long as it takes place in Andromeda and not the Milky Way. I'm curious what you'll compare next. What if someone says they didn't like Andromeda because they didn't like a character's nose? Will you jump on your bandwagon to point out that one of the characters in the trilogy had a nose you didn't like? Is that why? Sounds like speculation on your part with nothing to support your comment. Sounds like this post by you is mostly about your speculating about what I like and/or dislike about both the Trilogy and ME:A with nothing to support your comment.
When I say both the Citadel and the Nexus have essentially no ground to air defenses, it's because essentially none are shown to us in either game and we don't see any in place wherever we walk on either station. I did acknowledge 3 turrets that Shepard hacks during the final mission in ME1, but that's all we ever see.... in any of the 3 games. So I would say that the conclusion that such defenses were not added even after Sovereign's attack is a supported one.
I believe my description of the cut scene on Horizon is accurate as well. I certainly don't recall seeing any ground to air defenses firing before Shepard powered up the single "big gun that couldn't shoot straight" and I don't recall seeing any of the settlers in the cut scene using hand-held weapons to fire at the bugs... just Ashley or Kaidan fired back at them while the others ran. The only weapon found on the planet was a Collector Particle Beam. I also think it was clearly stated by Delan on Horizon in ME2 that they settlers came there to get away from Alliance interference.
Conversely, we are shown a lot of ground to air activity when we use the remnant defenses on Khi Tasira. We are also clearly shown that Meridian was originally part of Khi Tasira (so, I am assuming it can be put back together with Khi Tasira, but admit that may not be the case).
We are clearly shown that the AI does have some armed vessels, so it's factually incorrect for anyone to continue to say they have no armed vessels.
I'll admit to speculating about the exact motive of fans... but it isn't without support since several ranted about it on this forum shortly after the game was released. You can run the search if you wish. I believe my recollection is pretty clear on that.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 25, 2019 22:59:39 GMT
Again with the 'that it happened in the trilogy as well' comment. I'm surprised you even like the game. It's obvious the game didn't do anything better than the trilogy. But you don't care as long as the game didn't take place in the Milky Way. I doubt you wouldn't care how poor a sequel might be as long as it takes place in Andromeda and not the Milky Way. I'm curious what you'll compare next. What if someone says they didn't like Andromeda because they didn't like a character's nose? Will you jump on your bandwagon to point out that one of the characters in the trilogy had a nose you didn't like? Is that why? Sounds like speculation on your part with nothing to support your comment. Sounds like this post by you is mostly about your speculating about what I like and/or dislike about both the Trilogy and ME:A with nothing to support your comment. When I say both the Citadel and the Nexus have essentially no ground to air defenses, it's because essentially none are shown to us in either game and we don't see any in place wherever we walk on either station. I did acknowledge 3 turrets that Shepard hacks during the final mission in ME1, but that's all we ever see.... in any of the 3 games. So I would say that the conclusion that such defenses were not added even after Sovereign's attack is a supported one. False. You also pass a number of gun emplacements during the space walk which you can't interact with.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2019 23:08:00 GMT
Sounds like this post by you is mostly about your speculating about what I like and/or dislike about both the Trilogy and ME:A with nothing to support your comment. When I say both the Citadel and the Nexus have essentially no ground to air defenses, it's because essentially none are shown to us in either game and we don't see any in place wherever we walk on either station. I did acknowledge 3 turrets that Shepard hacks during the final mission in ME1, but that's all we ever see.... in any of the 3 games. So I would say that the conclusion that such defenses were not added even after Sovereign's attack is a supported one. False. You also pass a number of gun emplacements during the space walk which you can't interact with. OK, it looks like there might be some bigger guns there (I count 3 maybe 4 and still in the same area as the 3 hackable turrets - possibly on top of Citadel Control) - but they're not firing so they could be something else. However, I'll give you that they do look like guns.
Question though - Why then after Shepard gets control of the Citadel, those bigger guns don't start firing on Sovereign? Great vantage point to do some damage... from right underneath "the dragon's belly" and little risk of missing him. It would at least help knock his shield out quicker and possibly save some vessels from the fleets. Yet, we still don't see any ground to air activity during the battle. The fire all comes from the ships.
Also, why don't we see ground to air fire during the coup attempt in ME3?
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 26, 2019 2:02:40 GMT
Since the whole defense plan for the Citadel was based on closing the arms, wouldn't the guns have been mounted on the outside?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2019 2:44:57 GMT
Since the whole defense plan for the Citadel was based on closing the arms, wouldn't the guns have been mounted on the outside? Have you seen any there... on the outside then? The ones lakus found are on the inside since Shepard is on the inside at that point.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 26, 2019 3:34:07 GMT
At the distances we see the Citadel exterior from, I wouldn't have seen guns whether they were there or not.
As long as we're doing hypotheticals, which is all this can be, finding guns where the defence plan says they wouldn't need guns doesn't decrease the likelihood of guns being found where the defense plan says they would need guns.Although I suppose they could have just had incoherent purchasing priorities.
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Post by 10k on Jun 26, 2019 3:48:07 GMT
Maybe when Bioware remakes the trilogy, , Bioware might give Shepard the option not to have aliens on the ship. I would even add that option to ME2/3 as well. Let's not kid ourselves. If BioWare remade Mass Effect they would make asari referred to as gender-fluid, non-binary, make Garrus a woman and make Udina an allegory for Donald Trump. HAHA...they already basically did something like that to the asari in Andromeda. There's a conversation that happens on the Hyperion where an asari refers to herself as "he". Even though asari are monogendered, male and female have no meaning to the asari, and they have a matriarchal society; this asari on the Hyperion argued that she preferred the "he" pronoun. This baffled me given both the "She" or "He" pronouns have no meaning in asari culture. Asari only really use the "She" pronoun because that is what other races are comfortable using for them, so they adopted it. I can't really understand why she would want to be referred to as he, when neither "He" or "She" has any real meaning to her species? Other then "she just wants to be different from everyone else" this would be the only reason. It makes no sense at all, given there is no concept of the pronoun "He" in her culture. I mean, do she feel as though she has male characteristics, feel male, or feel masculine? What does that even mean for an asari? Boy I couldn't, and still can't wrap my head around that. I can understand a human using a pronoun that is opposite to their assigned birth to describe themselves; because they have a general concept of those pronouns. But as for an asari, I don't get it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2019 4:32:48 GMT
At the distances we see the Citadel exterior from, I wouldn't have seen guns whether they were there or not. As long as we're doing hypotheticals, which is all this can be, finding guns where the defence plan says they wouldn't need guns doesn't decrease the likelihood of guns being found where the defense plan says they would need guns.Although I suppose they could have just had incoherent purchasing priorities. Even so, we are not shown any fire coming from the Citadel during the final fight. After Sovereign and the fleet come through the relay, we see the DA leaving the Citadel. In a bit of a sequence break, it's after this scene that the captain of the DA finds out the defenses aren't responding and orders evacuation of the Council (even though they appear to already be on the ship and the ship is already trying to get away)... Anyways, we then see Sovereign alone make it into the arms as they close. There are no geth ships that come inside with him; that is, the entire battle with the geth fleet takes place outside the arms.
Next sequence, Shepard tells Joker, he/she has control of all systems and makes the decision to save the DA or not. We see no tracer fire coming from alleged ground to air defenses on the Citadel despite Shepard having control of them. All the fire in that battle appears to be coming from the various ships. As the arms start to open, Joker and the fleet go inside to take on Sovereign. Despite Sovereign apparently sitting over top 4 big guns (as lakus pointed out and we'll accept that they look like guns), we still see no evidence of any tracer fire that would indicate them firing underneath Sovereign. Again, all the fire seems to be coming from the ships.
If the guns are there and Shepard undeniably had control of them... why aren't they shown as firing... at the geth fleets (if outside the arms) or at Sovereign (if inside the arms)?
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Post by Iakus on Jun 26, 2019 13:27:15 GMT
At the distances we see the Citadel exterior from, I wouldn't have seen guns whether they were there or not. As long as we're doing hypotheticals, which is all this can be, finding guns where the defence plan says they wouldn't need guns doesn't decrease the likelihood of guns being found where the defense plan says they would need guns.Although I suppose they could have just had incoherent purchasing priorities. Even so, we are not shown any fire coming from the Citadel during the final fight. After Sovereign and the fleet come through the relay, we see the DA leaving the Citadel. In a bit of a sequence break, it's after this scene that the captain of the DA finds out the defenses aren't responding and orders evacuation of the Council (even though they appear to already be on the ship and the ship is already trying to get away)... Anyways, we then see Sovereign alone make it into the arms as they close. There are no geth ships that come inside with him; that is, the entire battle with the geth fleet takes place outside the arms. Except you know, for the geth dropships that attack Shepard during the spacewalk along the outside of the Citadel. Why is the Normandy the only ship shown killing Sovereign?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2019 14:25:27 GMT
Even so, we are not shown any fire coming from the Citadel during the final fight. After Sovereign and the fleet come through the relay, we see the DA leaving the Citadel. In a bit of a sequence break, it's after this scene that the captain of the DA finds out the defenses aren't responding and orders evacuation of the Council (even though they appear to already be on the ship and the ship is already trying to get away)... Anyways, we then see Sovereign alone make it into the arms as they close. There are no geth ships that come inside with him; that is, the entire battle with the geth fleet takes place outside the arms. Except you know, for the geth dropships that attack Shepard during the spacewalk along the outside of the Citadel. Why is the Normandy the only ship shown killing Sovereign? 1) Still doesn't change the fact that the scene showing Sovereign entering as the arm closes shows the geth fleet far behind and shows no geth ships entering the arms with Sovereign.
2) The Normandy is the ship that kills Sovereign, but there are other shown as firing at Sovereign at various points in the battle and shown as being destroy when Sovereign fires back at them.
Point one illustrates another break/error in how the cut scenes are illustrated... much like the scene showing the DA leaving the arms of the Citadel comes before the Captain asks for evacuation of the Council. Effectively, the ship is already in the process of evacuating Council before the Captain considers evacuating the council as necessary. They may have intended the scene to take place at a different point in time of the attack or, more likely, they should have shown some geth fighters accompanying Sovereign into the area as the arms closed around them, not just him. It still doesn't change the fact that the battle with the fleets, which shows no tracer fire from the Citadel itself, takes place outside the arms. So, it could be guns are there and not illustrated or that the Citadel is actually more lightly defended than people here want to believe.
Since this thread is about "sociopolitical" representation in the game... I presented a theory that there is a sociopolitical mindset among, particularly, the Asari that is not militaristic... and that attitude carried over and contributed to the lack of armaments among the Initiative. Another part of my theory is that the mistrust of the Alliance among the human colonists also contributed to that happening. The reason some fighters were brought is the Turian influence, which is militaristic.
Now, I realize all the anyone wants to do hear is sit and complain about ME:A rather than discuss anything about it... So, carry on. It's still part of the ME Universe. It may or may not be part of the next game... but if it is, someday the fans will just have to come to grips with it. If it dies and they go back and remake the entire Trilogy to accommodate a different story going forward, then any discussion here about any of it, Trilogy included, will be moot. Whether you or I or anyone else "likes" whatever Bioware does with it... remains to be seen.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 26, 2019 14:50:29 GMT
Except you know, for the geth dropships that attack Shepard during the spacewalk along the outside of the Citadel. Why is the Normandy the only ship shown killing Sovereign? 1) Still doesn't change the fact that the scene showing Sovereign entering as the arm closes shows the geth fleet far behind and shows no geth ships entering the arms with Sovereign.
2) The Normandy is the ship that kills Sovereign, but there are other shown as firing at Sovereign at various points in the battle and shown as being destroy when Sovereign fires back at them.
Point one illustrates another break/error in how the cut scenes are illustrated... much like the scene showing the DA leaving the arms of the Citadel comes before the Captain asks for evacuation of the Council. Effectively, the ship is already in the process of evacuating Council before the Captain considers evacuating the council as necessary. They may have intended the scene to take place at a different point in time of the attack or, more likely, they should have shown some geth fighters accompanying Sovereign into the area as the arms closed around them, not just him. It still doesn't change the fact that the battle with the fleets, which shows no tracer fire from the Citadel itself, takes place outside the arms. So, it could be guns are there and not illustrated or that the Citadel is actually more lightly defended than people here want to believe.
Since this thread is about "sociopolitical" representation in the game... I presented a theory that there is a sociopolitical mindset among, particularly, the Asari that is not militaristic... and that attitude carried over and contributed to the lack of armaments among the Initiative. Another part of my theory is that the mistrust of the Alliance among the human colonists also contributed to that happening. The reason some fighters were brought is the Turian influence, which is militaristic.
Now, I realize all the anyone wants to do hear is sit and complain about ME:A rather than discuss anything about it... So, carry on. It's still part of the ME Universe. It may or may not be part of the next game... but if it is, someday the fans will just have to come to grips with it. If it dies and they go back and remake the entire Trilogy to accommodate a different story going forward, then any discussion here about any of it, Trilogy included, will be moot. Whether you or I or anyone else "likes" whatever Bioware does with it... remains to be seen.
Sovereign was over two kilometers long. You don't think it could have held a few drop ships within it? The Citadel never fell even during the Rachni War or the Krogan Rebellions. I'd say it's pretty well defended. And MY point is that the Citadel races including, even ESPECIALLY the asari, since many of them were around during the Relay 314 Incident, the Morning War, and, among the matriarchs, even the Krogan Rebellions, they are well aware that there are hostile races out there, and even a single misunderstanding can lead to violence where they WILL have to defend themselves. This in addition to historical details like the Rachni War, and more current issues like batarian slavers, piracy in the Terminus (which should be considered a map to go by, since the Terminus was the Citadel's own version of a "frontier") It's not a matter of being "militaristic" is just freaking COMMON SENSE! All the races that came along in the first wave had experience with hostile aliens. The First Contact War was barely a single human generation ago! Mindoir happened within the Ryders' own lifetime! the Skyllian Blitz and the attack on Elysium (one of Earth's oldest colonies) was less than ten years ago! (from the colonists' perspective) Not bringing along armed ships and other means of defending the Arks and the Nexus makes anyone who went along on this excursion who didn't have to literally flee the galaxy a Darwin Award contender. Edit: Heck the AI launched while human colonies in the Terminus were DISAPPEARING!
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Post by themikefest on Jun 26, 2019 15:25:07 GMT
Still doesn't change the fact that the scene showing Sovereign entering as the arm closes shows the geth fleet far behind and shows no geth ships entering the arms with Sovereign. Yet a geth ship is seen dropping off geth to fight Shepard as he/she progresses to face Saren. Don't forget to add the 2 fighters at the SR1's side that fired as well
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 26, 2019 19:14:18 GMT
There may be a reason why there are no guns on the Citadel. The keepers may remove them, if they are put in place. Remember how they basically provide passive resistance to any changes they don't like? It may actually be difficult to maintain large guns on the outside of the station if the keeper don't want them there and given that the actual mission of the keepers is to keep the Citadel ready for when the reapers come, they have a good reason not to want them there.
Also, the Citadel's outer shell is impenetrable and in ME3, we learn that any of these impenetrable materials are basically quantum shielded, which means locked down at the quantum level somehow. At that point, it may be difficult to attach anything. Therefore, the defense plan for the Citadel has three layers (as described in ME: Revelation): 1. Closing the arms, creating an impenetrable interior. 2. The Citadel fleet, headed by the Destiny Ascension, basically the most powerful ship in the galaxy heading up the most powerful fleet in the galaxy 3. The Serpent Nebular, which allows one to approach only through a couple of mass relays, limiting the inflow of attackers.
Even without guns on the station itself, that seems like a pretty solid defense plan for the station (until the reapers show up of course).
As for what exactly we see in the cutscenes, I remember back when ME1 released, we had a discussion about the many inconsistencies between the cutscenes and the lore with the devs (yes, the the like of Chris L'Etoille and Patrick Weekes still frequented the old pre first-BSN legacy forums back in 2008/9). Some of the writers and cinematic designers admitted that there are plenty of lore violations in the videos because for the cinematics, when in doubt they decided to rather go with the rule of cool then to adhere strictly to how the lore would actually require e.g. space battle to look like (i.e. lot's of little dots, thousands of kilometers apart slowly turning and trying to hit each other but not managing to do so most of the time).
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Post by burningcherry on Jun 26, 2019 20:21:26 GMT
"He has a bigger hole than your Council's defense plan"
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 26, 2019 22:34:13 GMT
One of the hazards of being a fan is that you sometimes end up trying to analyze something unreal. It's not like there's any such thing as a Citadel Defense Plan.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 27, 2019 1:57:16 GMT
One of the hazards of being a fan is that you sometimes end up trying to analyze something unreal. It's not like there's any such thing as a Citadel Defense Plan. Thanks to this thread, there is now.
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Post by helios969 on Jun 27, 2019 10:19:52 GMT
The Andromeda Initiative was essentially a hippy commune filled with idealistic dreamers that were ill prepared for the harsh realities that came at them...which is why they got their ass kicked up and down the Heleus Cluster. It was pretty moronic for them to assume that the star cluster would be free of a hostile enemy force occupying the worlds they planned to settle. It's all fine and well to go with "peaceful explorers" but other sentient life may not give a shit when you're vying for the same resources.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 27, 2019 15:12:08 GMT
It's not that they assumed that the locals wouldn't be hostile, it's that planning for that case was useless. What good would a militaristic AI approach have done? A race without mass effect technology or the equivalent can't threaten the AI at all. A race with those techs is going to outclass any possible AI fleet. Trade a couple of the Arks for dreadnoughts and the AI fleet is still far inferior to the kett, and now you're half the population size forever.. I suppose they might have been able to blackmail the angara into letting the AI settle on Aya, depending on how many armed shuttles the angara have, but 20,000 colonists aren't going to be able to enslave a population of millions for long. Would anything about the ME:A plotline change in this case?
And the Heleus situation is actually pretty close to optimal for a militaristic AI. The chances of running into two factions hostile to each other, one of which has had its entire space fleet destroyed and the other one being just a small expeditionary for, is not high.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 27, 2019 15:15:33 GMT
What good would a militaristic AI approach have done? A race without mass effect technology or the equivalent can't threaten the AI at all. A race with those techs is going to outclass any possible AI fleet. Trade a couple of the Arks for dreadnoughts and the AI fleet is still far inferior to the kett, and now you're half the population size forever.. I suppose they might have been able to blackmail the angara into letting the AI settle on Aya, depending on how many armed shuttles the angara have, but 20,000 colonists aren't going to be able to enslave a population of millions for long. Doesn't need to be that aggressive. But being armed for initial self defense if nothing else would have been sensible. They even do it for their ground recon teams (when you go down to Habitat 7 for the first time). Would just make sense to do the same with their ships.
I think any long range exploration vessel should carry some armament, just in case. Even Star Trek's super peace loving Federation equips even their science vessels with some basic weaponry. You just do not know what you will encounter, so you prepare for as many possibilities as possible.
The only half way sensible explanation I've seen so far is UpUp's, that due to the reaper threat becoming imminent (assuming they left after ME2's Arrival DLC) the AI left prematurely and wasn't fully equipped yet at launch. But yea, that's yet one more head canon stretch to apply to the whole mess that is the Andromeda setup.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 27, 2019 15:45:19 GMT
If the benefactor is willing to invest x number of credits to have 100,000 occupants travel to another galaxy to preserve/save them, wouldn't investing in a defense system for the Nexus and the ships be worthwhile? Does that mean they would be able to fight off an attack by some unknown enemy? No, but having those defense systems in place could buy enough time for the ships/Nexus to get out of trouble before they take any/more damage. The other thing is why wasn't a sam and pathfinder on the Nexus?
It's also surprising that the pathfinder team wasn't awaken a few days before arriving so that the team could do a once over to make sure all equipment is in working order, get to known each member of the team, and to go over a few scenarios of what they would do in case something happens.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 27, 2019 15:52:32 GMT
It's also surprising that the pathfinder team wasn't awaken a few days before arriving so that the team could do a once over to make sure all equipment is in working order, get to known each member of the team, and to go over a few scenarios of what they would do in case something happens. I don't quite remember if there is a line about it in the game or not but I always thought this was actually supposed to happen if the Hyperion hadn't rammed into the scourge.
That said? Why wouldn't the pathfinder team have already known each other from some training sessions (or at least in introduction mixer or something) back in the MW? It's ridiculous to assume that such an important group never met before, if only to evaluate their group dynamics.
IMO this game would have been much better off actually starting in the MW, where we are still in training and the ships are being prepared. Then we witness the initial reaper attacks (though no one around us would actually know that it is the reapers or what exactly is going on) have to make a mad escape and end up on our way to Andromeda. Maybe we can't even get all the pre-vetted colonists to the sleeper ships, so some other people are taken on board in some emergency evacuation (explaining why there are quite a few people in the AI that really have no business being there) and so on. It could have been a spectacular opening and could have explained a lot more credibly some of the the setup at the same time.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 27, 2019 15:52:50 GMT
What does your alternative design for the Arks look like? How much armament? How many colonists do you trade off for that armament? Remember, this is a permanent tradeoff of total AI colonization stength for weapons which will only be useful in a very narrow band of potential outcomes, since in most cases the AI will either be totally superior to the locals or totally at the locals' mercy whatever weapons the AI brought.
It wouldn't even change anything abut the ME plot. If Leusinia or Paarchero had been armed, the kett would have just brought more forces to the attacks.
The Tempest-class is a different question. There's nothing to trade off, so making the ships armed means making them bigger. OTOH, they're not likely to have been a very big part of the total AI budget. Do the angara let an alien warship land on Aya?
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 27, 2019 15:59:49 GMT
If the benefactor is willing to invest x number of credits to have 100,000 occupants travel to another galaxy to preserve/save them, wouldn't investing in a defense system for the Nexus and the ships be worthwhile? Does that mean they would be able to fight off an attack by some unknown enemy? No, but having those defense systems in place could buy enough time for the ships/Nexus to get out of trouble before they take any/more damage. The other thing is why wasn't a sam and pathfinder on the Nexus? How would that "buying time" thing actually work? If you can activate your mass effect drive, you're safe until they catch up with you again. How does having weapons let you activate the drive faster? BTW, the Nexus does have a fighter defense. As for credits, do hypothetical extra funds get invested in space weapons, or more colonists? Yeah, but that would have just made the opening sequence dull. Well, they could have hit the Scourge the same way, but then that leaves Hyperion a long way off from Habitat 7.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jun 27, 2019 16:03:09 GMT
What does your alternative design for the Arks look like? How much armament? How many colonists do you trade off for that armament? Remember, this is a permanent tradeoff of total AI colonization stength for weapons which will only be useful in a very narrow band of potential outcomes, since in most cases the AI will either be totally superior to the locals or totally at the locals' mercy whatever weapons the AI brought. It wouldn't even change anything abut the ME plot. If Leusinia or Paarchero had been armed, the kett would have just brought more forces to the attacks. The Tempest-class is a different question. There's nothing to trade off, so making the ships armed means making them bigger. OTOH, they're not likely to have been a very big part of the total AI budget. What do you mean trade off? I assume you mean total mass of the ship? The Arks (and Nexus) are already huge. putting even a dreadnought sized barrel into/onto the ship is more a question of design than bolting something heavy onto it. I'd assume a trade-off would be minimal. And then, why wouldn't there be a trade-off with the Tempest? I am not sure how you are coming up with these constraints.
And no, it might not have changed anything about the plot. That's not the point. The point is credibility of how such a venture might be planned and conceptualized, especially if species like humans and turians are involved.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 27, 2019 16:09:58 GMT
That can't be the case. Unless dreadnoughts have enough empty space to fit thousands of colonists, a dreadnought-sized ship can't both have dreadnought capabilities and be an ark.
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