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Post by alanc9 on Aug 10, 2019 22:55:30 GMT
Possibly, but it really doesn't hold true after the asari have been in contact with and inter-breeding with other species for multiple generations. Patriarch may not yet have a meaning in Asari society, but "father" certainly does. Of course it doesn't, because all asari are still female, even the "fathers." My point is, no asari parent who didn't give birth would have been called the "father" until that concept was introduced from other species with male members. It's just one more thing not completely thought through before introducing the concept in ME1. A society based on a single sex/gender is not going to have words for roles based on another sex/gender that doesn't even exist for them. Wait a second. Are you saying that the asari wouldn't have had any word for the non-birth parent, or just that "father " is a lousy translation of that word?
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Post by melbella on Aug 11, 2019 2:27:03 GMT
Are you saying that the asari wouldn't have had any word for the non-birth parent, or just that "father " is a lousy translation of that word? They would have had a word for it, but it wouldn't have been based on a gender/sex that doesn't exist for their people.
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Post by NotN7 on Aug 11, 2019 5:22:37 GMT
I believe when Asari used the word father was for other races to comprehend for whom was not giving birth but where most of the genetics (think that's right) come from. *shrug* just me
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 13:26:11 GMT
I believe when Asari used the word father was for other races to comprehend for whom was not giving birth but where most of the genetics (think that's right) come from. *shrug* just me Well, I wouldn't say "most of the genetics" came from the non-Asari parent since the children were always Asari. The Asari would "take" want traits they felt enchanced their offspring. Not sure how they accomplished it, but the changes to their children seemed to all be pretty minor.
However, I'm saying the gender must have had some meaning to them because they were differentiating between the parent that physically had the child and the one that didn't and consistently applying a word to each that reflected that reality. That's the very basic basis of the concept of "gender" in a nutshell. I'm also saying they were rather blind to the "gender identity" of the second parent... overriding it in a way since that parent always became the falther. This means the species was not truly "gender neutral." They were never truly "mono-gendered" either since they used the same terms when talking about Asari/Asari pairings. Had they considered the species to be truly mono-gendered, Aethyta would not have corrected Shepard when Shepard said "other mother." They were "mono-gendered" only when dealing with non-Asari pairings and in those they were always female and, if their appearance is indeed fluid (as proposed by the bachelor party), that would be why they project feminine traits to each of those other species.
All of this is intentional on Bioware's part. They want us to feel disoriented when it comes to the alien species. With the Asari, the technique is by using gender loaded terms and a gender loaded appearance for a species they claim essentially to be "gender neutral" (the one term they haven't used for it).
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 11, 2019 13:58:25 GMT
Are you saying that the asari wouldn't have had any word for the non-birth parent, or just that "father " is a lousy translation of that word? They would have had a word for it, but it wouldn't have been based on a gender/sex that doesn't exist for their people. But how should a human translation device translate that word?
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Post by melbella on Aug 11, 2019 16:18:19 GMT
I'm also saying they were rather blind to the "gender identity" of the second parent... overriding it in a way since that parent always became the falther. And yet, the same asari could be both the birth parent of one child and non-birth parent of a different one (Aethyta was such herself, since she tells Liara she has an elcor half-sister, even though "that's not how it works"). For humans, a male with children will always be a 'father' and a female with children will always be a 'mother'. I find it somewhat silly that Aethyta calls Shepard out for not calling her Liara's "father" when, to me, the word "father" wouldn't have existed in asari society before meeting a species that included males. What were they called before that meeting?
But how should a human translation device translate that word? Uh, non-birth parent?
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Post by Polka Dot on Aug 11, 2019 16:18:49 GMT
they do take on "father" and "mother" roles in raising their offspring; and Liara herself differentiates them (albeit rather reluctantly) in ME1 and they are further delineated based on behavior in ME2 (after we meet Liara's father and she even corrects Shepard when he/she uses the term "other mother" instead). This is probably something that happened only after the asari encountered other space-faring people with clearly distinguished male and female members (first being the salarians, I think?). It doesn't seem at all likely the asari would have developed the concept of "father" when throughout their prior history all parents were female. Like Aria tells us, "patriarch" doesn't exist in asari society, so, why would "father"? Possibly, but it really doesn't hold true after the asari have been in contact with and inter-breeding with other species for multiple generations. Patriarch may not yet have a meaning in Asari society, but "father" certainly does. Of course it doesn't, because all asari are still female, even the "fathers." My point is, no asari parent who didn't give birth would have been called the "father" until that concept was introduced from other species with male members. It's just one more thing not completely thought through before introducing the concept in ME1. A society based on a single sex/gender is not going to have words for roles based on another sex/gender that doesn't even exist for them. Are you assuming the asari never encountered another life form that reproduce sexually before they left Thessia and met other advanced species? I would expect that at least some of Thessia's flora and fauna utilize sexual reproduction, and that asari biologists would have figured it out and incorporated that knowledge and understanding into their cultural knowledge base long before they became spacefaring. But really, why wouldn't they have evolved a term to identify the non-birth parent of a child?
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Post by Polka Dot on Aug 11, 2019 16:32:10 GMT
]Well, I wouldn't say "most of the genetics" came from the non-Asari parent since the children were always Asari. The Asari would "take" want traits they felt enchanced their offspring. Not sure how they accomplished it, but the changes to their children seemed to all be pretty minor. I believe the way it works is that the pregnant asari supplies both sets of genetic material and somehow uses stimulation from the other parent to randomize one set. We're also told (by Erinya) they can accomplish the same purpose with radiation. Honestly, I think that whole scenario is really just a beer goggles joke. Each individual "sees" characteristics appealing to them.
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Post by melbella on Aug 11, 2019 16:40:38 GMT
Are you assuming the asari never encountered another life form that reproduce sexually before they left Thessia and met other advanced species? [snip] But really, why wouldn't they have evolved a term to identify the non-birth parent of a child?
I am assuming they did not encounter any other sapient/sentient life forms like that, yes.
I'm not saying they didn't have a word for it. I'm saying the word wouldn't have been based on a sex/gender they don't have for their species. That human translators turn the word/phrase/whatever it is into "father," a word based on a male role in human society, is a fault of human thinking.
Let's say at some point in the future, humans encounter an androgynous (neither male or female, maybe even non-sexual) intelligent species. We can't refer to individuals as he or she, because those words relate to male and female in human society. "It" is reserved for non-sapient creatures or things. We don't have a common, widely accepted word to use for how to properly refer to them as individuals, so we would have to invent a new one rather than use current words that really don't fit.
Or, and this is more likely to happen, they would be referred to as the "default" 'he.'
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 16:49:13 GMT
I'm also saying they were rather blind to the "gender identity" of the second parent... overriding it in a way since that parent always became the falther. And yet, the same asari could be both the birth parent of one child and non-birth parent of a different one (Aethyta was such herself, since she tells Liara she has an elcor half-sister, even though "that's not how it works"). For humans, a male with children will always be a 'father' and a female with children will always be a 'mother'. I find it somewhat silly that Aethyta calls Shepard out for not calling her Liara's "father" when, to me, the word "father" wouldn't have existed in asari society before meeting a species that included males. What were they called before that meeting?
But how should a human translation device translate that word? Uh, non-birth parent? Isn't the term "non-birth parent" actually assignment of a 'gender" though? Historically, the very basis of the development of the words father and mother in our language IS on the differentiating of fathers contributing sperm and mothers bearing the child. It's not based on our other traits because we make the same sorts of gender typing to other species. I don't think you can honestly say that there would likely be only non-gendered species on the Asari homeworld. Asari do not procreate asexually nor does the sexual act result in both parents bearing children at the same time. Gender has meaning for them. It just might be fluid when pairing with their own species.
We don't know yet whether in Asari/Asari pairings whether the parents would change their role - that is, sometimes having the children and then sometimes not so that some of the siblings from the same pairing would have one of them as a "mother" and others would have the other one a their "mother." It could well be that they keep the same role throughout the pairing, which would be the equivalent of saying they assume a consistent "gender identity." They do ALL assume a consistent "gender identity" when pairing with non-Asari species in that they simply do not enable the non-Asari parent to bear children of the union regardless of there partner's gender or gender identity. Sure, incompatibility probably makes this sort of thing impossible, but in the case of humans, there would probably we ways through genetic science to pull it off, if the Asari made it an option.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 11, 2019 17:07:49 GMT
I agree that "non-birth parent" is a better term. But ITRW this sort of inaccurate/inappropriate mistranslation happens all the time. I don't see the case for why it shouldn't be a thing in the MEU too.
I suppose you could make a case that the MEU human culture would be far less heteronormative than 21st century urban cosmopolitan culture, which is what Bio designs around. But I don't think Bio's likely to do their worldbuilding that way; the PC's culture is the familiar base which stands in contrast to alien cultures, so making it futuristic/alien is unworkable.
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Post by Polka Dot on Aug 11, 2019 17:44:46 GMT
Are you assuming the asari never encountered another life form that reproduce sexually before they left Thessia and met other advanced species? [snip] But really, why wouldn't they have evolved a term to identify the non-birth parent of a child?
I am assuming they did not encounter any other sapient/sentient life forms like that, yes. I notice you snipped out my primary argument - that they probably knew about other species that use sexual reproduction long before they became spacefaring and met other sapient species. What I'm suggesting is that at least some other species on Thessia are sexually distinct and that the asari understood that. In their observation and study of the birds & the bees & the flowers & the trees, they would have learned about males and females, pollen and pistil, sperm and ova. We have a lot of words to describe reproductive roles in different species (sire, dam, bitch, stud) as well as the sex of individuals of different species, including those who have been neutered (mare, stallion, gelding, cow, bull, steer, hen, rooster, capon). It seems to work as a way to identify a parent who contributed to the creation of an offspring but did not give birth, no? I don't know that it's a fault of human thinking so much as it is a limitation of existing language. "They/them" seems to be coming into use to describe non-binary individuals. Of course, this conversation has been limited to English. Some languages are much more heavily genderized, and would present different challenges.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 17:46:55 GMT
]Well, I wouldn't say "most of the genetics" came from the non-Asari parent since the children were always Asari. The Asari would "take" want traits they felt enchanced their offspring. Not sure how they accomplished it, but the changes to their children seemed to all be pretty minor. I believe the way it works is that the pregnant asari supplies both sets of genetic material and somehow uses the other parent's DNA to randomize one set. We're also told (by Erinya) they can accomplish the same purpose with radiation. Honestly, I think that whole scenario is really just a beer goggles joke. Each individual "sees" characteristics appealing to them. Perhaps, but I'm attributing it to a little more. The Asari are somewhat gender blind. They don't really recognize the various gender identities of the species with whom they procreate. To the Asari, they are all the "non-birth parent" or the equivalent of our 'father" role... regardless of whether or not the target of their union would identify themselves as being "female" and regardless of whether or not they would in a union with other humans Asari, assume the role of "mother." While they themselves are not "mono-gendered" in that they can assume either role, the force their partners to be, in effect, "mono-gendered" as far as they are concerned. As I said, Jaal touches on this issue with PeeBee in ME:A.
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Post by melbella on Aug 11, 2019 18:41:00 GMT
I don't know that it's a fault of human thinking so much as it is a limitation of existing language. Language is based on experience, yes? A people who never experience A aren't going to have a word for, or any concept of, A. It's one reason why learning another language is so difficult. So many of the words and phrases are based in the culture from which the language generates and are absorbed rather than learned as a native speaker. You can't learn that easily, if at all, as an outsider.
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Post by Polka Dot on Aug 11, 2019 18:41:23 GMT
I believe the way it works is that the pregnant asari supplies both sets of genetic material and somehow uses the other parent's DNA to randomize one set. We're also told (by Erinya) they can accomplish the same purpose with radiation. Honestly, I think that whole scenario is really just a beer goggles joke. Each individual "sees" characteristics appealing to them. Perhaps, but I'm attributing it to a little more. The Asari are somewhat gender blind. They don't really recognize the various gender identities of the species with whom they procreate. I guess I've always interpreted asari culture as being completely free of gender norms and expectations. By the time we enter the MEU, they've been exposed to other cultures long enough to have perhaps at least started to develop an understanding of their gender roles, though, and whatever connotations other species might presume wrt gender pronouns. We really haven't much information about them, though. We learned a bit about krogan society under the genophage in ME2, and know a bit about salarian social and breeding sex roles, but that's about as far as it goes... It's not easy to discuss because we tend to conflate gender with sexual reproduction roles, etc. "Mono" means one, and when it comes to the asari as a species, there's a single distinct role for them in reproduction. They neither supply nor receive sex cells to/from other partners. The entire process is internal to the asari individual becoming pregnant. What muddies it all up is the fact that all the conceiving asari needs is some sort of electrical (?) stimulation from another source to become pregnant, which can be supplied by another asari. I don't recall any such Jaal/PeeBee conversation. Does it happen in the Nomad, or somewhere else? I'll look for it next time I play MEA.
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Post by Polka Dot on Aug 11, 2019 18:58:26 GMT
I don't know that it's a fault of human thinking so much as it is a limitation of existing language. Language is based on experience, yes? A people who never experience A aren't going to have a word for, or any concept of, A. I'd say language is based on knowledge. I'm aware of the existence of vegemite, despite never having seen, smelled, or tasted it. I've never had or directly observed the birth of a litter of puppies, but I still understand the processes involved.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 19:05:07 GMT
Perhaps, but I'm attributing it to a little more. The Asari are somewhat gender blind. They don't really recognize the various gender identities of the species with whom they procreate. I guess I've always interpreted asari culture as being completely free of gender norms and expectations. By the time we enter the MEU, they've been exposed to other cultures long enough to have perhaps at least started to develop an understanding of their gender roles, though, and whatever connotations other species might presume wrt gender pronouns. We really haven't much information about them, though. We learned a bit about krogan society under the genophage in ME2, and know a bit about salarian social and breeding sex roles, but that's about as far as it goes... It's not easy to discuss because we tend to conflate gender with sexual reproduction roles, etc. "Mono" means one, and when it comes to the asari as a species, there's a single distinct role for them in reproduction. They neither supply nor receive sex cells to/from other partners. The entire process is internal to the asari individual becoming pregnant. What muddies it all up is the fact that all the conceiving asari needs is some sort of electrical (?) stimulation from another source to become pregnant, which can be supplied by another asari. I don't recall any such Jaal/PeeBee conversation. Does it happen in the Nomad, or somewhere else? I'll look for it next time I play MEA. Yes, it happens in the Nomad. Initially, Jaal compares the Asari with the Kett. PeeBee explains that the other parent isn't assimilated, but that a "new being is created from the experience" Jaal retorts that "that new being will is always Asari" Ultimately, he apologizes for offending her. Lexi and PeeBee have a similar discussion comparing Asari reproduction to the kett. That one can be overhead on Tempest.
Regardless of how "genderless" you want to frame the terminology. It takes an electrical stimulation receiving parent and an electrical stimulation giving parent for the Asari to reproduce. This is neither asexual nor does it involve each partner playing exactly the same role at that time. It may be fluid in that they might take either role on any given occasion with each other, but we do not know that for ccrtain. They may consistently take one role or the other upon making an individual choice what role they wish to identify with. It all boils down to the very basic-est definition of gender... shed of all the external nuances humans have applied to their gender terms over the centuries. Gender, in and of itself, has meaning to the Asari as does "sex." (which is actually also just another word humans can use for gender. They are not "mono-gendered" (of a single gender) and they are not "asexual." They are being defined by Bioware as something for which we do not as yet have a precise word ourselves. We do not conflate "gender" with "sexual reproduction"... it's not a chicken vs. egg type thing. For us, sexual reproduction came first. We then framed everything else around it... even the similar terminology we use to describe differences in our DNA.
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Post by melbella on Aug 11, 2019 20:16:49 GMT
I've never had or directly observed the birth of a litter of puppies, but I still understand the processes involved. I said experience of a people (meaning, a society or civilization) not an individual. Sure, you can understand what that means, because you know what puppies are and what birth is/means. But what about someone from a society that doesn't know what either of those things are? Where birth doesn't happen like it does for earth based creatures? Where pets or even livestock or wild animals don't exist?
Do you think someone born on a planet where there are no stars in the sky (or even a 100% underground society) would understand constellations or any of our myths about them? They would have no word for 'star' because they wouldn't exist in their world view.
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Post by Polka Dot on Aug 11, 2019 21:15:04 GMT
I guess I've always interpreted asari culture as being completely free of gender norms and expectations. By the time we enter the MEU, they've been exposed to other cultures long enough to have perhaps at least started to develop an understanding of their gender roles, though, and whatever connotations other species might presume wrt gender pronouns. We really haven't much information about them, though. We learned a bit about krogan society under the genophage in ME2, and know a bit about salarian social and breeding sex roles, but that's about as far as it goes... It's not easy to discuss because we tend to conflate gender with sexual reproduction roles, etc. "Mono" means one, and when it comes to the asari as a species, there's a single distinct role for them in reproduction. They neither supply nor receive sex cells to/from other partners. The entire process is internal to the asari individual becoming pregnant. What muddies it all up is the fact that all the conceiving asari needs is some sort of electrical (?) stimulation from another source to become pregnant, which can be supplied by another asari. I don't recall any such Jaal/PeeBee conversation. Does it happen in the Nomad, or somewhere else? I'll look for it next time I play MEA. Yes, it happens in the Nomad. Initially, Jaal compares the Asari with the Kett. PeeBee explains that the other parent isn't assimilated, but that a "new being is created from the experience" Jaal retorts that "that new being will is always Asari" Ultimately, he apologizes for offending her. Lexi and PeeBee have a similar discussion comparing Asari reproduction to the kett. That one can be overhead on Tempest. Thanks. I'll look for it next time I play. Note that I'm not the source of the notion that asari are mono-gendered; Liara is. Here's a definition: Asexual reproduction is a type of reproduction by which offspring arise from a single organism, and inherit the genes of that parent only; it does not involve the fusion of gametes, and almost never changes the number of chromosomes. That sounds to me like a pretty accurate description of how asari become pregnant. There is no transference of sex cells. Note, too, that the "stimulation giving parent" could ostensibly be a lamp, speaker, or remote control. As I mentioned earlier, Erinya tells us the asari need only a source of radiation to randomize some genes: These things are individual behaviors, and they are apparently capable of fluidity (Aethyta considers herself Liara's father, but also bore a child). Many asari seem to enjoy a physically intimate bonding process that we tend to conflate with human sexuality, and they apparently have body parts that can accommodate other species sexual liaisons. Those body parts are presumably ubiquitous among the entire asari species. Unfortunately, in modern usage gender has become a substitute for biological sex. They are not necessarily the same thing. In some contexts, sex refers specifically to male, female, intersexed whereas gender is more along the lines of feminine, masculine, androgynous, etc. and is often used to describe social roles rather than biological characteristics.
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Post by Polka Dot on Aug 11, 2019 21:24:54 GMT
I've never had or directly observed the birth of a litter of puppies, but I still understand the processes involved. I said experience of a people (meaning, a society or civilization) not an individual. Sure, you can understand what that means, because you know what puppies are and what birth is/means. But what about someone from a society that doesn't know what either of those things are? Where birth doesn't happen like it does for earth based creatures? Where pets or even livestock or wild animals don't exist?
Do you think someone born on a planet where there are no stars in the sky (or even a 100% underground society) would understand constellations or any of our myths about them? They would have no word for 'star' because they wouldn't exist in their world view.
… and we've officially circled all the way 'round now. So I'll repeat what I said in my initial post to you on this topic: If you believe there are no life forms on Thessia that reproduce sexually - or that the asari never would have observed, studied, figured any of it out - well, you're certainly entitled to that position. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by NotN7 on Aug 11, 2019 21:52:35 GMT
I said experience of a people (meaning, a society or civilization) not an individual. Sure, you can understand what that means, because you know what puppies are and what birth is/means. But what about someone from a society that doesn't know what either of those things are? Where birth doesn't happen like it does for earth based creatures? Where pets or even livestock or wild animals don't exist?
Do you think someone born on a planet where there are no stars in the sky (or even a 100% underground society) would understand constellations or any of our myths about them? They would have no word for 'star' because they wouldn't exist in their world view.
… and we've officially circled all the way 'round now. So I'll repeat what I said in my initial post to you on this topic: If you believe there are no life forms on Thessia that reproduce sexually - or that the asari never would have observed, studied, figured any of it out - well, you're certainly entitled to that position. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Well if memory serves me right In ME1 didn't Liara say they can reproduce I.E equipped as humans do but it wasn't required???
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Post by melbella on Aug 11, 2019 22:15:08 GMT
If you believe there are no life forms on Thessia that reproduce sexually - or that the asari never would have observed, studied, figured any of it out - well, you're certainly entitled to that position.
Sigh. I don't think that. But, I also don't think asari would have adopted the human, etc. meaning of 'father' with all the connotations it brings with it into their own society before they encountered other sapient races with both males and females, and actually started producing children with males of other species.
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Post by Polka Dot on Aug 11, 2019 22:33:55 GMT
If you believe there are no life forms on Thessia that reproduce sexually - or that the asari never would have observed, studied, figured any of it out - well, you're certainly entitled to that position.
Sigh. I don't think that. But, I also don't think asari would have adopted the human, etc. meaning of 'father' with all the connotations it brings with it into their own society before they encountered other sapient races with both males and females, and actually started producing children with males of other species.
Sigh. I'm not sure what producing children with males of other species would have to do with it. The reproductive role of the child-bearing asari - and the partner - does not change regardless of the sex or species of the other parent.
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Post by Polka Dot on Aug 11, 2019 22:40:40 GMT
… and we've officially circled all the way 'round now. So I'll repeat what I said in my initial post to you on this topic: If you believe there are no life forms on Thessia that reproduce sexually - or that the asari never would have observed, studied, figured any of it out - well, you're certainly entitled to that position. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Well if memory serves me right In ME1 didn't Liara say they can reproduce I.E equipped as humans do but it wasn't required??? Reproduce? No. It's a form of parthenogenesis (asexual reproduction), period. Their bodies are apparently able to provide sexual pleasure to other species, however - which I guess you can interpret however you wish. Plus there's the whole connection of the nervous systems thing they do.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 12, 2019 1:36:22 GMT
Is it really parthenogenesis when they have to do the connection of nervous systems thing to make it happen? Depends on the definition of "fertilization", I guess.
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