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Post by midnight tea on Jan 14, 2020 5:25:53 GMT
while some others appear to have incarnated as dragons (Hakkon) and apparently go through process of rebirthing (venturing to Fade and back). Hakkon was explained easily enough. The original spirit was called into the dragon by the Hakkonites of the Divine Age. Whether the spirit requested a dragon form or the Avvar chose it as an extremely powerful avatar for their god, we were told that essentially the spirit was trapped in that form until we could "liberate" it to return to the Fade. It was whilst playing Jaws of Hakkon that I recalled the Lady of the Forest. Both the Avvar belief system and the origins of the Lady show that spirits are a lot more complex that we were previously led to believe by the Chantry dogma. But Hakkon existed before the Hakkonites. We can't say for sure whether the spirit they've trapped into the body of a dragon was the actual Hakkon, but whatever it was, it appears to have been very powerful and ventured into the Fade in a form of a dragon. And concerning the whole idea or rebirthing - as you've noted, the Avvar have a pretty unique, close relationship with spirits and even on that basis I think it can be assumed that the idea of reincarnation existing in Thedas doesn't appear to just be wholly imagined. It likely has a basis on something real in that world. But the whole idea that spirits were first hinges on the preposition that the Maker was the first one to exist, then he's created the Fade and its denizens and then a separate, permanently Veiled world where he could create more satisfying children. Which we already know is simply untrue (also, how do Titans feature into this? If anything it would seem that Titans are something that originated in the Fade, being more like Sun or even born out of it, rather than the Sun being like them). I'm not even sure we can pluck out any grains of truth here, because Solas has created the Veil not because he was dissatisfied or disappointed or in an 'eff that, this world sucks, let's make a new one' mood, but desperate and making a last ditch effort to try and save the world from whatever Evanuris were doing. Anyway - I don't disagree with the idea the the Veil has probably changed spirits/sentient beings significantly, but I'm not sure whether Lady Of The Forest was trapped on the other side, or whether the spirit was strong enough (being supposedly spirit of entire Brecilian forest) that it could stay or manifest on this side regardless what effect the Veil had on the world. She seemed to have been doing fairly well (though we can't really say what was she doing all those years, or what was her input into the apparent destruction of ancient human-elvhen city in the forest) up until Zathrian used her in his revenge scheme and bent her out of shape with his curse, which appears to have been why she really wanted to die and (presumably) go back to Fade to either 'cleanse', be reborn or allow other things to get born. And isn't it sort of what happened to Solas's spirit friend, Wisdom? It appeared to have been doing really quite well for millenia, yet the summoning circle or 3 middling mages at a bad time appears to have twisted it enough that she has also died also in the Fade after that. It may yet return, though not with the same set of memories it had - or it could've 'seeded' new entities to be born in Wisdom's place (apropos 'stars' we've discussed in other posts).
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Post by annia on Jan 14, 2020 12:25:49 GMT
That strikes me as very similar to what Corypheus and his fellow High Priests did. Maybe rather than being the originators of the Darkspawn, the Evanuris were just an earlier iteration of power mad leaders trying to poke around wherever is or was being used to contain the blight (the Golden City/the Void).
I find it quite likely. I've theorized for a while that the Blight - or possibly Void or whatever may be behind them - may be something primordial and it's possible that it wants to gain access to Thedas by appealing to vanity and greed of powerful people (so I guess little different than hungry demons trying to get on the other side of the Veil by manipulating people and exploiting their weaknesses). I'll be super disappointed if we do not find out some solid answers on this topic in DA4.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 14, 2020 18:22:29 GMT
I find it quite likely. I've theorized for a while that the Blight - or possibly Void or whatever may be behind them - may be something primordial and it's possible that it wants to gain access to Thedas by appealing to vanity and greed of powerful people (so I guess little different than hungry demons trying to get on the other side of the Veil by manipulating people and exploiting their weaknesses). I'll be super disappointed if we do not find out some solid answers on this topic in DA4. I don't expect to get all the answers in DA4, but I do hope they'd either advance plot and lore enough so we wouldn't rely on tidbits and guesswork when trying to figure out many things - and, of course, that they'd resolve some stuff with some sort of satisfying conclusions.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 21, 2020 0:21:41 GMT
Heh... anybody else stumbled upon Thedas Revolutions wiki (a non-canonic RPG) when doing quick research and got really, really confused for a few minutes?
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Post by xerrai on Jan 21, 2020 0:42:06 GMT
Heh... anybody else stumbled upon Thedas Revolutions wiki (a non-canonic RPG) when doing quick research and got really, really confused for a few minutes? Not me, but it is interesting to browse for a few minuets to see if they have any interesting original content.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jan 21, 2020 3:22:11 GMT
Heh... anybody else stumbled upon Thedas Revolutions wiki (a non-canonic RPG) when doing quick research and got really, really confused for a few minutes? Yes! It made me so delirious, and it didn’t help that I was high at the time. Lol.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 21, 2020 19:20:44 GMT
Heh... anybody else stumbled upon Thedas Revolutions wiki (a non-canonic RPG) when doing quick research and got really, really confused for a few minutes? Yes! It made me so delirious, and it didn’t help that I was high at the time. Lol. I wasn't high, but I wanted to find something real quick about Hormak thaig and stumbled upon an article on wiki. Visually it's pretty bare-bones, so at first I thought it was a smaller alternative to the well-established wiki. I began reading to compare quality of information... and was like "buh? whut? WHUT? Where is that info from?? Did I miss something???". Very confusing indeed, until I checked the front page and then googled what's that about. I do have to wonder how many people stumble on this wiki by accident when browsing for info and occasionally mistakes it for canon?
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Post by xerrai on Jan 22, 2020 0:02:21 GMT
Yes! It made me so delirious, and it didn’t help that I was high at the time. Lol. I wasn't high, but I wanted to find something real quick about Hormak thaig and stumbled upon an article on wiki. Visually it's pretty bare-bones, so at first I thought it was a smaller alternative to the well-established wiki. I began reading to compare quality of information... and was like "buh? whut? WHUT? Where is that info from?? Did I miss something???". Very confusing indeed, until I checked the front page and then googled what's that about. I do have to wonder how many people stumble on this wiki by accident when browsing for info and occasionally mistakes it for canon? Tbh I don't even need a fanon wiki for me to mistake something as canon. I'm 99% sure I have a few small headcanons in this head of mine that I was so confident of, my mind may have meshed them into what I considered canon. Or at least I think so...it happened with my other favorite fandoms so I don't see how this one will be any different. Just watch, we'll be talking harrowing rates or something and I'm going to say something like "well around 17/18 years old seems like the average age mages get harrowed" but have nothing to back it up. It feels about right but it's one of those things that has never been definitively proven.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 22, 2020 6:09:44 GMT
I wasn't high, but I wanted to find something real quick about Hormak thaig and stumbled upon an article on wiki. Visually it's pretty bare-bones, so at first I thought it was a smaller alternative to the well-established wiki. I began reading to compare quality of information... and was like "buh? whut? WHUT? Where is that info from?? Did I miss something???". Very confusing indeed, until I checked the front page and then googled what's that about. I do have to wonder how many people stumble on this wiki by accident when browsing for info and occasionally mistakes it for canon? Tbh I don't even need a fanon wiki for me to mistake something as canon. I'm 99% sure I have a few small headcanons in this head of mine that I was so confident of, my mind may have meshed them into what I considered canon. Or at least I think so...it happened with my other favorite fandoms so I don't see how this one will be any different. Just watch, we'll be talking harrowing rates or something and I'm going to say something like "well around 17/18 years old seems like the average age mages get harrowed" but have nothing to back it up. It feels about right but it's one of those things that has never been definitively proven. I'm fairly sure all of us are like that at some point while deep in the lore weeds >D With that said - I am curious when is the average for Harrowing? And wasn't it established when people usually manifest their magic?
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Post by xerrai on Jan 22, 2020 18:33:14 GMT
Tbh I don't even need a fanon wiki for me to mistake something as canon. I'm 99% sure I have a few small headcanons in this head of mine that I was so confident of, my mind may have meshed them into what I considered canon. Or at least I think so...it happened with my other favorite fandoms so I don't see how this one will be any different. Just watch, we'll be talking harrowing rates or something and I'm going to say something like "well around 17/18 years old seems like the average age mages get harrowed" but have nothing to back it up. It feels about right but it's one of those things that has never been definitively proven. I'm fairly sure all of us are like that at some point while deep in the lore weeds >D With that said - I am curious when is the average for Harrowing? And wasn't it established when people usually manifest their magic? As far as I know there is no set age range for when they can take it, and odds are this age range differs by Circle. But most of them are supposed to take it at the end of their apprentice training, which is in turn dictated by a group of senior spellcasters who decide when and if a mage is of sufficient skill. We only get only one direct harrowing age in the entire series in the form of Wynne. Wynne took hers when she about to turn 17, and this was noted to be years ahead of her peers. By how much I do not know. But I would hazard a guess she beat them by a good 2-4 years. So yeah, my best guess is ages 19 to 21 or thereabouts as far as harrowing age is concerned. Now normally I would bring up Vivienne in this conversation since she was supposedly one of the youngest full-fledged mages in Circle history according to WoT vol 2., but the facts presented don't line up that well to back that up. See, in the game itself (around 8:00) Viv said she was transferred to Montsimmard "while still an apprentice" (i.e not harrowed) and WoT vol. 2 claims she transferred when she was 19. So she was 19 when she was harrowed? And this was considered abnormally young for a mage to take her harrowing? That seems...off. Especially in comparison to Wynne's harrowing age and Wynne wasn't noted for being the youngest harrowed mage on record despite being ahead of her peers. Seems to me that either the writing team had a miscommunication, Vivienne was lying, or World of Thedas is wrong somewhere (which isn't unprecedented since vol. 2 explicitly has a section of "errata" (errors) to correct previous misinformation given in WoT). Either that or the average harrowing age is a lot later than I thought and mages actually get harrowed around thier early 20s. I also could have sworn I saw a tweet several years ago that claimed she was harrowed as young as 15 or 16. But alas, I cannot find this elusive tweet. There's a part of me that even thinks I dreamt it all up.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 22, 2020 19:51:26 GMT
So yeah, my best guess is ages 19 to 21 or thereabouts as far as harrowing age is concerned. Was it mentioned what age Jowan was at the beginning of DAO? Because it was evident he was considered rather old for an apprentice and that he ought to have taken his harrowing by then. As I always thought of my Warden as in their late teens/early twenties that would suggest your best guess is about right. And wasn't it established when people usually manifest their magic? According to WoT mages usually manifest their ability around puberty but the evidence is rather mixed in game. Anders is stated to have been 12 when he first showed his magic, which would be about right, but I seem to recall that Merrill is said to have been adopted into the Sabrae clan as their First when she was only 5/6, whilst Emil du Lancet complains about having been shut up in the Circle since the age of six. Dorian was showing his magic by the age of 9, which is when he began his education in the Circle of Carastes. However, Calpernia would seem to have been a teenager when she first showed her ability. Since the Senior Enchanter at Carastes comments that Dorian's talent was already greater than boys 3-4 years older, it is possible that it was more normal for magic to show around the age of 12 and Dorian was a child progidy. If Emil can also be regarded as an exception, then that leaves Merrill and may be elves, particularly among the Dalish, do show their magic at an earlier age.
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Post by sandwichtern on Jan 22, 2020 22:21:46 GMT
With that said - I am curious when is the average for Harrowing? And wasn't it established when people usually manifest their magic? As far as I know there is no set age range for when they can take it, and odds are this age range differs by Circle. But most of them are supposed to take it at the end of their apprentice training, which is in turn dictated by a group of senior spellcasters who decide when and if a mage is of sufficient skill. We only get only one direct harrowing age in the entire series in the form of Wynne. Wynne took hers when she about to turn 17, and this was noted to be years ahead of her peers. By how much I do not know. But I would hazard a guess she beat them by a good 2-4 years. So yeah, my best guess is ages 19 to 21 or thereabouts as far as harrowing age is concerned. Now normally I would bring up Vivienne in this conversation since she was supposedly one of the youngest full-fledged mages in Circle history according to WoT vol 2., but the facts presented don't line up that well to back that up. See, in the game itself (around 8:00) Viv said she was transferred to Montsimmard "while still an apprentice" (i.e not harrowed) and WoT vol. 2 claims she transferred when she was 19. So she was 19 when she was harrowed? And this was considered abnormally young for a mage to take her harrowing? That seems...off. Especially in comparison to Wynne's harrowing age and Wynne wasn't noted for being the youngest harrowed mage on record despite being ahead of her peers. Seems to me that either the writing team had a miscommunication, Vivienne was lying, or World of Thedas is wrong somewhere (which isn't unprecedented since vol. 2 explicitly has a section of "errata" (errors) to correct previous misinformation given in WoT). Either that or the average harrowing age is a lot later than I thought and mages actually get harrowed around thier early 20s. (...) Based on the the mages we've encountered thus far and/or their accounts on how old they were when their magical powers manifested or they were brought to the Circle [Anders 12 years old, Rhys 11 y.o., Bethany Hawke 9 y. o. (WoT), Feynriel 8 y. o., Jowan 5-6 y. o.], my personal guess is that magic powers can manifest anywhere between the earliest childhood to the onset of puberty. That would give us a hypothetical age range from 0 to 16 years. So at the age when Wynne was finishing her apprentice studies there could still be some unlucky latebloomer who had just now come to his powers. Or alternatively, picture a templar trailing after a two-year-old in a Circle. I'd wager it was Wynne being able to keep a cool head and handle being put to mortal danger and not the lack of magic skills in her peers which resulted in her being harrowed earlier than the most mages. Apparently also (according to the DA wiki) some hedge mages are the result of a person simply not noticing they have magic powers and their powers then developing in unconventional ways. In these cases I'm guessing the person in question has been both lucky enough to escape the notice of malevolent spirits and their magic manifests and "discharges" itself either weakly enough to escape the person's notice, or during times and/or in ways that aren't noticeable to them or other people (their talents lie in less flashy schools of magic?). So their "starting age" would be even harder to determine. A bit out of topic, but one thing I've occasionally pondered is whether the first spell a mage casts hints to the type of magic they will later be especially good at. Howl's Moving Castle (the book) is absolutely the reason why I have both a mage warden and a mage Inquisitor who woke up one morning in their early teens covered in grease and were then promptly sent to a Circle.
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Post by azarhal on Jan 23, 2020 16:32:33 GMT
And concerning the whole idea or rebirthing - as you've noted, the Avvar have a pretty unique, close relationship with spirits and even on that basis I think it can be assumed that the idea of reincarnation existing in Thedas doesn't appear to just be wholly imagined. It likely has a basis on something real in that world. It's real where the "well of all souls" is. Here lies the abyss, the well of all souls. From these emerald waters doth life begin anew. Come to me, child, and I shall embrace you. In my arms lies Eternity.
—Canticle of Andraste, 14:11Those verses match the belief that when they die mortal's soul and spirits goes back to the well of souls (aka the Abyss aka the Void) to eventually begin a new life. The Chantry eventually twisted it to mean that the souls of mortals who are loved by the Maker move to his side while everyone else goes back to the Void/Abyss. It is possible that the rebirth system got broken for mortals at some point (but still work for spirits) and the Chantry's interpretation is just adapting what is being observed now.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 23, 2020 18:15:13 GMT
And concerning the whole idea or rebirthing - as you've noted, the Avvar have a pretty unique, close relationship with spirits and even on that basis I think it can be assumed that the idea of reincarnation existing in Thedas doesn't appear to just be wholly imagined. It likely has a basis on something real in that world. It's real where the "well of all souls" is. Here lies the abyss, the well of all souls. From these emerald waters doth life begin anew. Come to me, child, and I shall embrace you. In my arms lies Eternity.
—Canticle of Andraste, 14:11Those verses match the belief that when they die mortal's soul and spirits goes back to the well of souls (aka the Abyss aka the Void) to eventually begin a new life. The Chantry eventually twisted it to mean that the souls of mortals who are loved by the Maker move to his side while everyone else goes back to the Void/Abyss. It is possible that the rebirth system got broken for mortals at some point (but still work for spirits) and the Chantry's interpretation is just adapting what is being observed now. It's true that claims in the Canticle roughly correspond with Avvar beliefs. There's also an excerpt in Canticle of Exaltations that makes it clear that Andrastians believe in immortal souls: "Whatsoever passes through the fire Is not lost, but made eternal; As air can never be broken nor crushed, The tempered soul is everlasting!"
However, believing in everlasting souls or even souls 'beginning anew' doesn't mean that one believes in reincarnation - that the souls, be it of specific individuals or in general, go back to inhabit new body AND be more or less the same person. I'm not sure how that works though. There is a valid argument to be made that 'beginning anew' but not remembering anything from past life doesn't differ much from death. But maybe this is what makes modern Thedosian different in eyes of ancient elves, who - more or less - retained their identities and memories once they ventured to the Void and back? Also - I'm not really sure reincarnation or immortality works for spirits. Not for all spirits at least. After all, Solas's friend died and it did so in the Fade as well. Solas says that there are 'stirrings of energy in the Void' and that something may some day grow there, but it'll likely not be the same. Interestingly though, Solas says that the death of spirits is not the same as death for mortals - then he proceeds to say that when the idea of the spirit is strong or their memory has shaped other spirits it may some day rise again. But that does sound quite similar to the ideas Chantry has on the topic concerning souls of people, so... how different is it for mortals?
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Post by azarhal on Jan 23, 2020 19:42:34 GMT
It's real where the "well of all souls" is. Here lies the abyss, the well of all souls. From these emerald waters doth life begin anew. Come to me, child, and I shall embrace you. In my arms lies Eternity.
—Canticle of Andraste, 14:11Those verses match the belief that when they die mortal's soul and spirits goes back to the well of souls (aka the Abyss aka the Void) to eventually begin a new life. The Chantry eventually twisted it to mean that the souls of mortals who are loved by the Maker move to his side while everyone else goes back to the Void/Abyss. It is possible that the rebirth system got broken for mortals at some point (but still work for spirits) and the Chantry's interpretation is just adapting what is being observed now. It's true that claims in the Canticle roughly correspond with Avvar beliefs. There's also an excerpt in Canticle of Exaltations that makes it clear that Andrastians believe in immortal souls: "Whatsoever passes through the fire Is not lost, but made eternal; As air can never be broken nor crushed, The tempered soul is everlasting!"
However, believing in everlasting souls or even souls 'beginning anew' doesn't mean that one believes in reincarnation - that the souls, be it of specific individuals or in general, go back to inhabit new body AND be more or less the same person. I'm not sure how that works though. There is a valid argument to be made that 'beginning anew' but not remember anything from past life doesn't differ much from death. But maybe this is what makes modern Thedosian different in eyes of ancient elves, who - more or less - retained their identities and memories once they ventured to the Void and back? Also - I'm not really sure reincarnation or immortality works for spirits. Not for all spirits at least. After all, Solas's friend died and it did so in the Fade as well. Solas says that there are 'stirrings of energy in the Void' and that something may some day grow there, but it'll likely not be the same. Interestingly though, Solas says that the death of spirits is not the same as death for mortals - then he proceeds to say that when the idea of the spirit is strong or their memory has shaped other spirits it may some day rise again. But that does sound quite similar to the ideas Chantry has on the topic concerning souls of people, so... how different is it for mortals? I can't think of a single Earth religion or philosophie that believe in reincarnation that has people remembering their past life by themselves. Learning about your past life is always something that comes with external help in those religion/philosophie. The "reincarnated" Avvar don't remember anything of their previous life from what I remember of Jaws of Hakkon, it's the Shaman who tell them who they were. Also, the Avvar, like the Chantry, don't think everyone gets reborn (get to the Abyss and back), but they have a total opposite opinion of who does. Our only concret example of "elven return after death" is Mythal, who might not even qualify as elf, and the well of sorrow might explain why she can remember. Normal elves seems to die permanently and I don't remember any talk of reincarnation there, unless their concept of immortality was reincarnation (which means it's broken now). I'm not sure we can qualify Corypheus's body-hoping as reincarnation either. What we do know is that beliefs about death in DA all have a similar concept of certain dead souls/spirits going back to the Abyss/Void and eventually something else come out that might or not remember something. Which sound a lot like Pillars of Eternity actually, just with less rock...unless lyrium is involved in the process. As for Solas, many of the things is says fall into Obiwan's "from a certain point of view" category of half-truth from Return of the Jedi.
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Post by midnight tea on Jan 24, 2020 1:46:44 GMT
I can't think of a single Earth religion or philosophie that believe in reincarnation that has people remembering their past life by themselves. Learning about your past life is always something that comes with external help in those religion/philosophie. The "reincarnated" Avvar don't remember anything of their previous life from what I remember of Jaws of Hakkon, it's the Shaman who tell them who they were. Also, the Avvar, like the Chantry, don't think everyone gets reborn (get to the Abyss and back), but they have a total opposite opinion of who does. Our only concret example of "elven return after death" is Mythal, who might not even qualify as elf, and the well of sorrow might explain why she can remember. Normal elves seems to die permanently and I don't remember any talk of reincarnation there, unless their concept of immortality was reincarnation (which means it's broken now). I'm not sure we can qualify Corypheus's body-hoping as reincarnation either. What we do know is that beliefs about death in DA all have a similar concept of certain dead souls/spirits going back to the Abyss/Void and eventually something else come out that might or not remember something. Which sound a lot like Pillars of Eternity actually, just with less rock...unless lyrium is involved in the process. As for Solas, many of the things is says fall into Obiwan's "from a certain point of view" category of half-truth from Return of the Jedi. I don't recall any dialogue or codex mentioning Shamans helping the new incarnation remember their past lives. But I do remember kind of the opposite, from A Tradition of Rebirth: "These resurrected souls are not expected to remember their past selves consciously, but instead are assumed to be subtly "guided" by their previous experiences, especially through visions and portents."
Which is nothing new, trope-wise. Specific IRL religions or philosophies may be adamant that external (*cough*their*cough*) help is needed to remember past life, but stories are chock-full of reborn people who can figure this stuff out on their on, have visions of the past or basically act like they have partial amnesia. Never mind the fact that we can't be sure whether Avvar incarnations are truly reborn heroes or... well, we know from runes and dialogue that the Avvar may not particularly care whether the reborn being is in fact the original, which actually makes this thing sort of the opposite of reincarnation Like, instead of an old spirit being reforged to lead new life, the new spirit falls into that place to lead the old life. Which we sorta-kinda saw with Cole and Compassion, btw. So question remains how the reincarnation in Thedas actually looks like. Are reborn souls (those strong enough to come back, I guess?) a thing and are they indeed subtly guided by half-forgotten memories and experiences and so on? Or do new or reforged (or changed enough to not really be considered a continuation of past self) souls become this sort of Frankenstein monster made from patches of memories, sentiments and perhaps wishes of the living for half-mythical heroes and protectors? Anyway - if reincarnation was indeed a thing at some point AND if it indeed was A Very Big Thing at time of Elvenhan, I really wouldn't be surprised if Evanuris facilitated the return of elves, thus securing their loyalty or worship in order to be reborn. That'd also make ancient elves relatively similar to lesser Daedra from TES universe - connected by Oath Bond to Daedric Princes or pacts with powerful summoners, so they can re-gain physical form after they're banished back to the void of Oblivion. Well, 'normal elves' from modern Thedas are apparently considered to be as much of shemlen as other races by the ancient elves - and we don't really know what happens to ancient elves, at least after their physical forms have been destroyed or slain. Maybe the collapse of the whole system makes it as hard for them to come back as others. Though, I'd say that - given the existence of Uthenera and that some of the most prominent remnants of Elvhen culture was the idea that ancient elves preserved their bodies, even if they've ventured into the Fade for thousands of years - it seems that even if rebirth was a thing, the formation of new body may be a process long, complicated or hard enough for ancient elves to prefer to stick to their old shells. Maybe it's an 'effective' reincarnation, in the same way his body-hopping has been called by Solas 'effective immortality'. Such wording makes it seem that - although Cory has clearly learned some ancient secrets - his methods may be too crude or incomplete or corrupted to be comparable. True, but on one hand we have generations of buildup of bias and politics and whatevs - and on the other we have a guy who not only witnessed or lived through things most people don't even remember now, but he seems to be quite knowledgeable about how the world actually works. So whatever angle he wants to present here, the fact that he distinguishes between what happens to mortals and what happens to spirits after their death likely means that there's a meaningful enough distinction between both processes.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 24, 2020 18:28:48 GMT
Would just add that the ancient Neromenians believed that their heroes/honoured dead were reborn as dragons. This was before they abandoned faith in the Maker so it was clearly a very ancient belief in their culture. However, I wonder if this idea was dropped once they started worshipping the Old Gods as dragons or whether they continued to believe their ancestors were reborn as simple High Dragons as opposed to the Old Gods that were something far superior.
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Post by azarhal on Jan 24, 2020 20:00:44 GMT
Would just add that the ancient Neromenians believed that their heroes/honoured dead were reborn as dragons. This was before they abandoned faith in the Maker so it was clearly a very ancient belief in their culture. However, I wonder if this idea was dropped once they started worshipping the Old Gods as dragons or whether they continued to believe their ancestors were reborn as simple High Dragons as opposed to the Old Gods that were something far superior. The belief probably didn't die out that long ago going by the Haven cultists believing Andraste was reborn in a dragon. Or there is something about high dragons and mind controlling people to worship them. :/ It is also possible that the Old Gods were named after ancient Neromenians heroes and worship happened over time as those heroes become myths and eventually deities in the mind of the people.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Feb 3, 2020 21:49:20 GMT
Okay guys, can we get our tinfoil hats on for a quick second? I've been thinking about this mural quite a lot... ... and I keep tripping myself over the symbols/motifs due to the current DA timeline. It's been theorized that the lit-up, odd shaped spheres connect to how many archdemons there are left to slay. I find that peculiar because this mural is found damaged in the Vir Dirthara - which suggests it was damaged when the veil ripped the place apart. If that's the case, then do the spheres truly represent archdemon souls? Could they actually represent foci? It'd make sense, considering in TDWR teaser there are only two lit-up spheres after Solas' orb was destroyed in DAI. Where is the black city? In Solas' previous depictions, the black city is represented as a city - not a sun or anything else for that matter. It looks like there's a giant city in the giant sphere, and since I've already surmised that this mural was created pre-veil, could the faded structure actually be pre-black Arlathan? See below for what I mean by how the black city is typically portrayed: I'd argue that each sphere in the sky represents a "between" place in the fade, such as the Vir Dirthara and the Croassroads. Based on that, it seems like the Arlathan existed in a bubble, like other Elvhen locations, and held back the blight, which is also surrounded "The Sun?" Ehh, that's where things get iffy from me, which makes me curious what everyone else thinks.
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Post by yogsothoth on Feb 4, 2020 0:10:06 GMT
It's been theorized that the lit-up, odd shaped spheres connect to how many archdemons there are left to slay. I find that peculiar because this mural is found damaged in the Vir Dirthara - which suggests it was damaged when the veil ripped the place apart. If that's the case, then do the spheres truly represent archdemon souls? Could they actually represent foci? It'd make sense, considering in TDWR teaser there are only two lit-up spheres after Solas' orb was destroyed in DAI. The foci have always been represented in the murals as the 8-spoke symbol seen on the right. They also look more like sea shells (referencing Mythal walking out of the sea?) or animal (dragon) scales. The symbols representing archdemons/Old Gods also doesn't make sense since there's a varying number of of them left depending on the use of the Dark Ritual. There can only be 2 archdemons left, and there can either be 2 or 3 Old God (souls) left. I remember the prevailing theory being that they represent the 7 Evanuris trapped by Solas, with gold representing the 3 Goddesses and silver/grey representing the 4 Gods. Another was that it's Mythal + Elgar'nan and their children. I'd reckon its referring to the supposed Gates of the Black City that were prophesied to shatter and unleash "darkness" (i.e. Blight) on both the world and the Fade. Here's another random thought: Solas wasn't the one that was a member of both the Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones, but Mythal secretly was, and she was playing both sides against each other. Both sides found this out and came together to murder her. That's why Solas locked both away (assuming Solas was the one that trapped the Forgotten Ones).
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 4, 2020 0:24:27 GMT
It's been theorized that the lit-up, odd shaped spheres connect to how many archdemons there are left to slay. I find that peculiar because this mural is found damaged in the Vir Dirthara - which suggests it was damaged when the veil ripped the place apart. If that's the case, then do the spheres truly represent archdemon souls? Could they actually represent foci? It'd make sense, considering in TDWR teaser there are only two lit-up spheres after Solas' orb was destroyed in DAI. The foci have always been represented in the murals as the 8-spoke symbol seen on the right. They also look more like sea shells (referencing Mythal walking out of the sea?) or animal (dragon) scales. The symbols representing archdemons/Old Gods also doesn't make sense since there's a varying number of of them left depending on the use of the Dark Ritual. There can only be 2 archdemons left, and there can either be 2 or 3 Old God (souls) left. I remember the prevailing theory being that they represent the 7 Evanuris trapped by Solas, with gold representing the 3 Goddesses and silver/grey representing the 4 Gods. Another was that it's Mythal + Elgar'nan and their children. I'm not sure it can be argued that there are 3 archdemons alive if OGB exists - I think whatever has survived has either ceased its past life and function when it was slain (or when it was corrupted) and the remnant is close to what is left of Mythal... which she pretty much confirms in the Fade scene in OGB world-state. While Mythal was likely involved in some games or scheming (Fen'Harel's special greeting in his temple suggests she may have secretly supported the rebellion) and may have even been sympathetic to the Forgotten Ones (whatever they were) I'm not sure that's how it went. Solas may not be considered as the most reliable source there is, but given that he's still bitter about the murder of Mythal, I think he'd mention it somewhere that it weren't just Evanuris that were involved in her killing. Besides - what would be her end game?
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 4, 2020 1:05:15 GMT
Okay guys, can we get our tinfoil hats on for a quick second? I've been thinking about this mural quite a lot... ... and I keep tripping myself over the symbols/motifs due to the current DA timeline. It's been theorized that the lit-up, odd shaped spheres connect to how many archdemons there are left to slay. I find that peculiar because this mural is found damaged in the Vir Dirthara - which suggests it was damaged when the veil ripped the place apart. If that's the case, then do the spheres truly represent archdemon souls? Could they actually represent foci? It'd make sense, considering in TDWR teaser there are only two lit-up spheres after Solas' orb was destroyed in DAI. The thing is that - while there may be some similarities - I don't think both images represent the same thing. Solas's mural appears to be depicting something concerning the Golden City/Fade, while the image in TDWR trailer shows us some sort of barrier surrounding the Red Lyrium Idol. While those things may be connected, I don't think they are the same things - so the seals may represent something different, even if related in one way or another. I admit that Solas's Vir Dirthara mural confuses me to this day, but I interpret it as either some sort of Fade map, with the silver/gold areas being... zones?, or - more likely than the former - phases of some sort of cycle. The silver and gold orbs and the smaller black orb may even represent astronomical events, like the positions of sun and moon on the sky? Anyway, I say that it may depict phases of a cycle, because if there's one thing that is obvious from Solas's murals is the way he depicts the passage of time - things on the left precede things on the right. Both figures on the mural(s) are clearly the same person (Solas) and on the left he's depicted... sleeping? Is that how he looks in Uthenera? While on the right he's awake and with hands around a foci, which I assume is fully charged. So this may as well be an elaborate charging instruction for his Orb and when to wake him up...with silver and gold zones depicting time (whole ages, likely) necessary to charge it? Alternatively I think it may be a depiction of an elaborate spell... maybe even how to lift the Veil? After all, I don't think it's a coincidence that we learn of the Veil and who's created it where we then see this exact mural - in Vir Dirthara. One could perhaps ask how come there's a painting of Solas showing his master plan for Evanuris can exist in their library, but considering we've just spent entire game not knowing that there's an ancient elvhen god in our midst, I'd say that Solas thrives on being unnoticed and when nobody knows what he he's doing even if one stares right at it. Then again I've long suspected that when the Veil ripped Vir Dirthara apart, it may have opened a secret room meant for Solas and rebels, hidden within the Library. It would explain why we find images and sculptures related to Solas/Fen'Harel just in one place in Vir Dirthara. Ah, right - I don't necessarily think it's a coincidence that the shapes surrounding Solas look quite like eluvians. I'm not sure what to think of it, other that it was quite clear that eluvians are important in all of this, given that Solas has tried to gain access to them before he woke up and killed his agent for failing to secure a key to control them.
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Post by yogsothoth on Feb 4, 2020 3:37:24 GMT
While Mythal was likely involved in some games or scheming (Fen'Harel's special greeting in his temple suggests she may have secretly supported the rebellion) and may have even been sympathetic to the Forgotten Ones (whatever they were) I'm not sure that's how it went. Solas may not be considered as the most reliable source there is, but given that he's still bitter about the murder of Mythal, I think he'd mention it somewhere that it weren't just Evanuris that were involved in her killing. Besides - what would be her end game? I'm not terribly invested in the idea, but the logic is: We know that Mythal stood out amongst the Evanuris, apparently being the only one to protect her followers, as well as being noted for killing Titans. We know that the Evanuris reserved the ability to shapeshift into a dragon for only the Evanuris and their chosen. Geldauran differentiated the Evanuris and Forgotten Ones by nature/what they are (Evanuris) and their deeds/what they do (Forgotten Ones). Mythal is singled out for her actions, while also being the primary god associated with the Evanuris' "divine" form. She straddles the line between the two groups, and far more so than Solas as shown so far. As for Solas, he might not differentiate between the two, especially if Mythal didn't. They'd all just be gods/Evanuris to them. As for her reason: if both groups can be pitted against each other, it will keep them distracted from going after the Titans/Blight/Void/Lyrium/their own/her followers etc.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 4, 2020 4:19:52 GMT
I've suggested before on the Solas thread that the Yellow Sphere above Solas in the mural might depict the pre-Veil world (the horizontal wavy lines representing the Fade as a formerly free-flowing river), while the Blue Sphere represents the post-Veil world (the vertical wavy lines representing the Veil now acting as a barrier).
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Post by azarhal on Feb 5, 2020 14:41:08 GMT
Okay guys, can we get our tinfoil hats on for a quick second? I've been thinking about this mural quite a lot... ... and I keep tripping myself over the symbols/motifs due to the current DA timeline. It's been theorized that the lit-up, odd shaped spheres connect to how many archdemons there are left to slay. I find that peculiar because this mural is found damaged in the Vir Dirthara - which suggests it was damaged when the veil ripped the place apart. If that's the case, then do the spheres truly represent archdemon souls? Could they actually represent foci? It'd make sense, considering in TDWR teaser there are only two lit-up spheres after Solas' orb was destroyed in DAI. Where is the black city? In Solas' previous depictions, the black city is represented as a city - not a sun or anything else for that matter. It looks like there's a giant city in the giant sphere, and since I've already surmised that this mural was created pre-veil, could the faded structure actually be pre-black Arlathan? See below for what I mean by how the black city is typically portrayed: I'd argue that each sphere in the sky represents a "between" place in the fade, such as the Vir Dirthara and the Croassroads. Based on that, it seems like the Arlathan existed in a bubble, like other Elvhen locations, and held back the blight, which is also surrounded "The Sun?" Ehh, that's where things get iffy from me, which makes me curious what everyone else thinks. The artwork is consistent in the game series so far (the little black city in those painting isn't that different from DAO intro version). That means the "death of a Titan" is not showing the Black City. I think people believe that because of the "peacock feathers" as they were in DAO intro version, but they were tied to the magisters getting cast down as darkspawns, not the city itself and I always took them as a representation of pride/hubris. I think the idea that "death of a titan" is a representation of before/after Veil might make sense and the image in the middle is Pride (Solas) covering the "sun" (Fade). Sidetrack: I find it interesting that Solas painting of the Black City always has Pride Demon eyes around it. Also, rewatching the DAO intro, the imagery goes: Golden city -> turn black -> tree lose leaves -> magister castdown + peacock feathers. We always talk about the city and the magisters, but never the tree in the middle. Thing is, the leafless tree is part of the lore too, associated to both Flemeth/Mythal (the cover of her grimoire in DAO and her Vallaslin) and Andruil.
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