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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 30, 2020 18:19:55 GMT
One does not kill the Queen without the King's consent. Unless it wasn't the combined Evanuris who killed her but it was simply made to look that way. Solas found it easier to blame them all but what if he was deceived? I'm playing Devil's Advocate here because in actual fact I think there was also a clue in one of the mosaics in DAI that pointed to someone, possibly Elgar'nan, trying to make it look like he wasn't responsible but Mythal knew the truth of the matter. I think it was the one entitled the Arch-demon because it had a dragon in it being pierced from different points of origin and Gatsi said how the dragon was giving someone else an eyeful even though they didn't seem to have been responsible for the piercing, which made me feel it wasn't depicting the arch-demon at all.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 30, 2020 18:37:20 GMT
Why then would Solas refuse categorically to partake of the Well of Sorrows? Because it comes with a geas of course, but could it be that he knew all his plans would then be revealed to Mythal? Which in turn would indicate he intends to do things he knew she would disapprove of... And yet, she knew he would come for her, and her powers, but she allowed it. Why? It could be because of the geas or may be because he was under her control already. It did seem very unreasonable at that time. He didn't want Morrigan to drink, didn't want you to drink, didn't want to drink himself, yet was adamant that someone should drink (to avoid Corypheus getting his hands on it), although I do wonder if Corypheus had tried controlling his Vessel against the will of the priests in the Well, it would simply have destroyed the mind of the Vessel. Why is it that whoever drinks of the well does not recognize Solas right away? Because the spirits of the priests control the information you get. After all there is plenty of information you should have been able to acquire from the Well but didn't so that is the only explanation. When it suits them, they will give you the password to Fen'Harel's refuge, so they must know why they have this but either the Inquisitor isn't given that information or is prevented from telling anyone else. The spirits within the Well still served Mythal, not the drinker. When Cole advises against drinking he says that you wouldn't want all those voices in your head. Morrigan seems thrilled at all the things she can understand as a result of the Well but translating a book is not really that big a deal and she soon discovers the knowledge she gained comes at a price.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 30, 2020 18:44:32 GMT
Now, people think this may be because Ghil and Solas may have been friends. But what if Solas, instead, was her servant or slave?
I'd still like to know why he was always seen as a wolf even before his rebellion. Then after his rebellion why are all those statues still left around as giant advertisements for his cause? So it seems likely he was always known as the Wolf and depicted as such but it was only later that he was known as the Dread Wolf, the appearance of which is very different from that of an ordinary wolf.
I've said elsewhere that all the pictures of him in his sanctuary show him with his face concealed by a wolf mask, so may be that is how he always appeared, never allowing anyone to see his true face. Which is why he is always depicted as a wolf, even in mosaics of his own side in his sanctuary but also elsewhere where there are mosaics of the gods and he alone is depicted in animal form.
The fact that he is shown alongside the other gods, suggests he was always accorded a degree of respect by the Evanuris and regarded as one of their own (as the Dalish legends say). I doubt he would have been given such prominence if he was a mere slave or servant of anyone, so even if he began that way, he had risen in the hierarchy long before he rebelled. Why did he need to deny his godhood if he wasn't generally seen as a deity?
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jul 30, 2020 18:58:46 GMT
You're certainly onto something Gludipew. Ghili'nain and Solas share a relationship in that they weren't orignially part of the Evanuris, and maybe that isn't such a coincidence. Maybe they knew eachother prior to becoming gods? I'm almost inclined to think that Ghili'nain was even part of the Forgotten Ones. Let's take a look "The Ascenion of Ghili'nain", in which you mentioned Gludipew: Ghilan'nain kept herself apart from the People. She used her power to create animals none had ever seen. The skies teemed with her monsters, the land with her beasts. Andruil hunted them all, and after a year of killing, approached Ghilan'nain with an offer: the gods would share their power with Ghilan'nain, but only if she destroyed her creations, for they were too untamed to remain among the People. Ghilan'nain agreed and asked for three days to undo what she had made.
On the first day she struck down the monsters of the air, except those she presented to Andruil as a gift.
On the second day she drowned the giants of the sea, except those in deep waters, for they were too well-wrought, and Pride stopped her hand.
On the third day she killed the beasts of the land, except the halla, whose grace she loved above all else.
This is how Ghilan'nain was made youngest of the gods. "Ghilan'nain kept herself apart from the People. She used her power to create animals none had ever seen. " I take this to mean she did not belong to anyone, and was living freely, creating creatures with her magic. A lot of questions are raised from this: If she kept herself apart from The People, how did she learn her magic? Even then, how did she become powerful enough herself to create these beings? Ghili'nain may have kept herself apart from The People, but that didn't mean she was necessarily alone. "The skies teemed with her monsters, the land with her beasts" What is her purpose behind this? To make a magical land for shits and giggles? My assumption is that they were used to aid her in some way. Andruil hunted them all, and after a year of killing, approached Ghilan'nain with an offer: the gods would share their power with Ghilan'nain, but only if she destroyed her creations, for they were too untamed to remain among the People. Okay, this is super interesting to me. Andruil is seemingly making a deal with Ghilan'nain because her creations were too "untamed" to remain among the people... but Ghili'nain wasn't even apart of The People. Why would her creations go onto other lands and cause havoc and why was that an actual threat to a God like Andruil? It sounds intentional, and the danger was enough for even Andruil to step in. I don't think these were merely bunnies and deer. Ghilan'nain agreed and asked for three days to undo what she had made. On the first day she struck down the monsters of the air, except those she presented to Andruil as a gift. On the second day she drowned the giants of the sea, except those in deep waters, for they were too well-wrought, and Pride stopped her hand. On the third day she killed the beasts of the land, except the halla, whose grace she loved above all else. So, Andruil couldn't kill the beasts in a year, but it only took Ghili'nain 3 days? I think it goes to show that her and her creations were connected enough for her to do so easily, which underlines my point that these beasts were used to aid her, and in order to do so correctly, she had to connect to it in some way. The "Pride" mention is interesting to me, because it's basically saying "Solas" and not The Dread Wolf. Solas claims that Solas came first, and the Dread Wolf came later. Seeing as this tale occurred before Ghili'nain became a god, it's possible that Solas hadn't earned his Dread Wolf until after Ghili'nain became a god. How did Solas even stop her? Because he was familiar with her magic as a Forgotten One? Anyway, putting it all together, I think Ghili'nain was with the Forgotten Ones and gained her magical ability from them. Notice how her keeping apart from The People sounds similar to Geldaruan's claim: "Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery." Her creations were made for war - some to spy and some to fight. Andruil then recognized her power and dangled new power in front of her eyes, urging her to join The People's side in the war. She then did so, upsetting the balance. Solas then stopped her because he either had personal knowledge of who she was and could persuade her, or he knew her power well enough to persuade her.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 30, 2020 19:50:35 GMT
"The skies teemed with her monsters, the land with her beasts" What is her purpose behind this? I've always thought that likely she was already the "Chosen" of Andruil. In the ancient text about the Sinner Against the Gods, it says that he was urged by Ghilan'nain to take a form reserved for "the gods and their chosen". So it wasn't just the gods who took "wings" but those favoured by them as well as their "chosen". Now we don't know if Ghilan'nain urged him to do this before or after she was raised to godhood but clearly she was favoured enough that she wasn't punished for it (not directly anyway but Dirthamen may have held a grudge). Anyway, it made sense to me that Ghilan'nain knew that Andruil liked to hunt new things. So she kept creating new and more dangerous monsters for her to hunt, which Andruil approved of and favoured Ghilan'nain in return. Then the other gods started to complain about the havoc these monsters were causing as they had been too numerous for Andruil to get them all, so they told Andruil to do something about it. Andruil saw an opportunity to get her ally raised in status, so a deal was struck. I've wondered if Pride/Solas stayed her hand about the creatures of the sea because Mythal asked him to. Mythal was born of the sea and seems to have a great affinity with water, so may be she thought having a few aquatic monsters was a good thing, particularly if she was aware that there were other powers "across the sea" that it would be better to deter from approaching their shores.
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Post by Gludipow on Jul 31, 2020 6:08:31 GMT
Well, before you completely dismiss my theory, Whatever the truth of the matter, I'm pretty sure that Mythal is ultimately pulling the strings. However, Flemeth does say "she was betrayed, as I was betrayed, as the world was betrayed." Why did killing Mythal betray the world unless it resulted in something terrible that will ultimately destroy it? That is a valid point, but that makes me wonder then, since the only things I can think of that affect the whole world are the Blight and the Veil. Let us be real, Red Lyrium is a threat, but it wouldn't have been one without the Blight in the first place. She could be referring to either one. If the Veil, then she would be pissed at Solas and that still would fall in line with the conniving theory. It would just change her focus ever so slightly. Either way, that line by itself just sounds like she plans on going after quite a few people for revenge. Why would her creations go onto other lands and cause havoc and why was that an actual threat to a God like Andruil? It sounds intentional, and the danger was enough for even Andruil to step in. I don't think these were merely bunnies and deer. Ghilan'nain agreed and asked for three days to undo what she had made. On the first day she struck down the monsters of the air, except those she presented to Andruil as a gift. On the second day she drowned the giants of the sea, except those in deep waters, for they were too well-wrought, and Pride stopped her hand. On the third day she killed the beasts of the land, except the halla, whose grace she loved above all else. So, Andruil couldn't kill the beasts in a year, but it only took Ghili'nain 3 days? I think it goes to show that her and her creations were connected enough for her to do so easily, which underlines my point that these beasts were used to aid her, and in order to do so correctly, she had to connect to it in some way. I mean no disrespect when I say this, but I am going to go out on a limb and guess you haven't read Tevinter Nights? Horror of Hormak has some very interesting things to share. I can put the relevant bits under a spoiler tag for anyone who doesn't want it spoiled for them. Warm air trickled out of the passageway—the stench of brine and decay now overpowering. Several steps in, the passageway sloped downward and seemed to curve gently inward, forming a spiral ramp that led ever deeper into the darkness. Ramesh took a deep breath, the air stinging his lungs. Beside him, the wood of Lesha’s staff creaked as she tightened her grip until her knuckles were white.
[...]
The slope of the ground started to abate, then, and the walls began to take on a more sculpted appearance. Blank rock gave way to carvings—mostly too worn and damaged to make out. Lesha paused in front of one image that had largely survived. It was a simple painting of three figures—a supplicant, a priestess, and a monster. Lesha was the first to break the silence. “This reminds me of something. What, exactly…” She shook her head. “Almost like Avvar cave paintings. But dwarven, maybe?” Ramesh leaned in and squinted. “They look more elven to me. ’Least the people in the picture do, I mean.” “It’s not about the people. Look, every culture has their own artistic signature—something that makes it theirs. Tevinter is all about sharp angles. Ferelden is hard and brutish, and Orlais is delicate and opulent. Dwarves are … well, simple is the wrong word, but they get right to the truth.” “If it’s dwarven, what’s it say?” “Not sure. But look—it’s the same image repeated, with slight variations.” She pointed to another painting that was partially intact. “Three figures. The supplicant, the queen, and the monster. Except the person and the monster change. Not a lot, but a little. Enough to tell. But the priestess remains.” She was right. The creature changed a bit each time, as did the figure, but the priestess remained the same. Or at least, almost the same. It was perhaps the oppressive nature of the place acting upon his worst fears, but it seemed to him that the priestess’s smile grew a little wider, and a little crueler, with each subsequent image.
[...]
There was no question, in his mind, that these ruins were elven in nature. While dwarven architecture remained the rule in the Deep Roads, there were exceptions. From time to time, Wardens would find unmistakably elven architecture scattered among dwarven works. This, however, was exclusively, entirely elven—there were no dwarven works interspersed throughout, not even any sign of the darkspawn that filled so much of the underground. And this chamber was nearly pristine. The usual signs of age—of water, dripping from above, or pooling from below—were absent. Debris was scattered on the ground in places, broken vessels and shattered chests, but the room itself was intact.
[...]
On the surface of the walls were carved massive bas-reliefs, running in three parallel bands and disappearing into the darkness in either direction. The detail was exquisite, and Ramesh quickly realized that what he had first thought to be some kind of paint or pigmentation was, in fact, millions of tiny gemstones set into the stone. The images engraved into the stone seemed almost alive, each one a perfectly frozen moment as the actors within marched through their stories. On the topmost band, stately elven kings and queens held court, their people kneeling before them in respectful supplication. On the middle, scenes of healing and succor, of disease and injury being drawn forth from the sick and dying by elven mages. And on the bottom, aravels, far more elaborate and grandiose than any that Ramesh had ever seen, pulled by armies of halla toward distant mountains—one of which, he realized with a start, was that same mountain that they were now beneath, the three jagged peaks that twisted around each other easily distinguishable in the detailed carvings. It was, taken as a whole, magnificent—and yet, the more he stared at it, the more disquieting it became. There was something slightly off—something that set his teeth on edge and his palms itching for the comforting feel of his weapons. Not one specific thing, but a preponderance of little things all adding up to an aura of quiet, deliberate menace. The striations on the columns, random at first, began to form patterns before Ramesh’s eyes. The same symbol—the horns of a halla—repeated on each column. The symbol seemed to shift, changing in an inexplicable way that made Ramesh’s eyes water. He tore them away, focusing instead on the bas-reliefs that ran around the chamber. Yet even they, suddenly, seemed wrong. The lowest band of carvings, the halla pulling the aravel, was off. The halla were different, wrong. They had too many horns, for one, and a harder, more rounded look than was normal. A look that was almost insectile. And the horns themselves were longer and ridged. Organic, somehow. And the aravels were unlike any he had seen. The windows were barred, and they bore more resemblance to a prison-ship than anything else. The middle band, with its scenes of healing, seemed now twisted, wrong. No longer did it seem as though mages were drawing corruption and disease out of the wounded and infirm—but instead they forced it in, pushing it through and into the fallen bodies. The expressions on the faces of those elven rulers betrayed a contempt that was almost palpable, the beatific smiles edged with disgust and disdain for the creatures at their feet. And the subjects, far from kneeling in reverence as Ramesh had first thought, seemed more to be cowering in terror.
[...]
Rank upon rank of grotesqueries filled the cave. Each one was a twisted horror of body parts assembled seemingly at random. The fanged maw of a serpent rested atop the slender neck of a halla, moving rapidly on the limbs of a Varterral. A massive spider scurried about, its many eyes replaced instead with the heads of a dozen serpents, each one dripping venom from exposed fangs. And in the center, a massive pool, filled with a viscous gray fluid. The scent of brine wafted forth from it. Above it, a massive lyrium crystal hung suspended. It glowed with a sickly light, tinged with yellow and green. Streamers of energy flowed from it into the pool, sending it bubbling wherever it touched.
[...]
They watched as a hurlock walked toward the pool, stiff-legged. It broke the surface of the gray ichor, which reacted instantly, flowing around the creature. In moments it was completely submerged. Out of the murk rose a cocoon, iridescent and pulsing with a green light. There was a hissing sound, a flash of light, and the cocoon shattered. Yet what came out was not a hurlock. It had the head of one, but that head rested on the body of a massive drake.
[...]
The earth moved, and a wall of sound, like the fist of an angry titan, lifted Ramesh, throwing him out of the entrance to the Deep Roads and tumbling down the side of the hill. The screech of the creature turned from rage to pain, to despair, and weakened in volume, before cutting off entirely. Behind him, the earth shifted, the hill collapsing inward, downward, burying the creature with not just the roof, not just the cave, but the entire mountain. Struggling to his feet, Ramesh stumbled down the mountain. Behind him, it continued its implosion, falling in on itself and wiping away that blasphemous place. Every moment, he expected to hear that scream, that insectile buzz, but it never came. Silence replaced the thunder of falling rock behind him. Thunder came again, but it was real thunder this time. The rain started to fall—a soft drizzle, the water mixing with the tears that streamed freely down Ramesh’s face. Tears of mourning, of grief. For Lesha. For Jovis. For the rest of the Wardens, whatever doom had taken them. But tears of relief, too. He’d made it out. He’d survived—and more important, he could tell the other Wardens. Warn them about the horhorror. Warn them about what lurked beneath Hormok, and maybe, probably, elsewhere as well. Because he remembered something. Something about the bas-relief that he’d dismissed at the time, but which now loomed large in his memory. The mountain he’d brought down, the one that buried that nightmare under thousands of tons of rock, was not the only one to which the aravels brought their prey. There had been, before the images repeated, eleven others. If you look at these examples of Ghilan'nain, then I think it would be reasonable to suggest Ghilan'nain wasn't some nurturing mother of nature like she tends to be depicted. Instead, she was a mad scientist that experimented on living things and made them into grotesque horrors to suit her whims. For no other reason than they could. The Evanuris didn't look at other elves the same was as they did each other, so it would make sense that she would use them in her experiments.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 31, 2020 8:56:10 GMT
Let us be real, Red Lyrium is a threat, but it wouldn't have been one without the Blight in the first place.
We do not know the origins of either but they are obviously connected. The Blight is older than the assault on the Black City. It is just that it would appear to have been quarantined there and so when the Magisters broke in they released it. Forget all the Chantry dogma, Corypheus makes it quite clear it was black when they got there, first in DA2 when he complains about the fact, then in his memories in DAI.
"They spit on our deeds and claim we brought darkness into the world. We discovered the darkness. We claimed it as our own, let it permeate our being."
Unlike other people infected with the Blight, Corypheus did not die or eventually become a ghoul and is certainly not compelled by the call of the Old Gods to seek them out. Being infected in the Black City would seem to have transformed him. In some ways it turned him into a form of Arch-demon, since he could give off a Calling that mimicked what the Wardens can usually hear. The Black City was certainly originally a seat of power and he saw an empty throne. Not only that be he seemed adamant that to return there permanently would give him even greater power. Of course it is possible that the Black City in the Fade is merely a gateway and when they touched it they were immediately transmitted to its counterpart deep underground, the part of the Eternal City that was cut off from the Fade by the Veil. There may well already have been darkspawn there and possibly something else, the strange presence that Tamlan could see in a dark city through the eluvian in DAO, an eluvian that had also been corrupted by the Blight, which presumably was why it was focussed on that place.
The Dalish refer to the Golden City as the Eternal City and claim it is the home of their gods. The followers of Sylaise say that Mythal was associated with cities. So it seems likely that Mythal was involved in the creation of the Eternal City and the throne was her throne. At one time it was Golden, filled with light, so what changed it? Was it the Veil or was it her death?
Since I would regard the Blight as a much bigger betrayal of the world than the Veil, that is why I feel that is what Flemeth was referring to.
Incidentally, it is curious is it not that Flemeth/Mythal does regard the modern elves, or rather the Dalish, as being of the People, unlike her own priest, Abelas, and Solas to a large extent, who seemed to reserve particular contempt for the Dalish. She admonishes Merrill when she bows to her without knowing who she really is with "the People are too quick to bow the knee". Then she says to an elven Inquisitor "You do the People proud." Whilst they can complain she didn't do more for them down the years, actually it would seem Asha'Bellanar would appear to have been keeping an eye on them and had occasionally been willing to help them out, although Keepers acknowledged they would only approach her if really desperate as she is just as likely to kill a supplicant as help them. Curiously though that is exactly how Mythal is said to have bestowed her favour in the codex in her Temple.
Also, once we meet Flemeth after the Temple of Mythal we know the truth about her identity and the murder of Mythal. Yet she makes no mention of the fact that an elven Inquisitor is standing there with vallaslin on their face that could well be that of one of her enemies. Corypheus can mention about their vallaslin and its negative associations, Kieran can refer to it, but Flemeth says nothing at the same time she is declaring she is out for vengeance? So something very peculiar is going on.
Another strange thing. Surely Abelas and his sentinels had been tasked with maintaining the Temple and guarding the Well. I still don't understand why just dancing on a load of magic tiles makes him willing to give up the Well to you without a fight even though you have no other connection with the ancient elves whatsoever. Admittedly it is Morrigan who encourages us to do the ritual and of course even to go to the Arbor Wilds in the first place. She was taught by Flemeth, so was this another instance of Flemeth playing the long game and carefully nudging people in the direction she wished them to go? I definitely feel that Morrigan was meant to drink from the Well by Flemeth as she knew she would not be able to resist the temptation to do so.
Why did Flemeth not go to the Temple herself, do the ritual and make herself known to her priesthood? A simple enough thing to prove. Drink from the Well, prove that it had no control over her but did not harm her. Ergo she is Mythal. Otherwise, who was the knowledge of the Well being preserved for if not Mythal or her Chosen?
Of course, in the end someone other than Morrigan can drink from the Well but that is okay because Mythal can still control them via the spirits of her priesthood, so the knowledge of the Well is safe enough but I do wonder if the Well of Sorrows was the task assigned to that particular daughter of Flemeth, in addition to saving the Old God soul but that only arose because of the emergence of the Arch-demon at that particular time. Yavana was given the task of protecting and reviving the dragons. There were allegedly other daughters in the Planasene Forest and the Nahashin Marshes who may have already fulfilled their purpose or it has yet to be seen. Mind you, Kieran does say that Morrigan is specifically the inheritor, so Flemeth was clearly grooming her for that role.
Technically I assume that all the daughters would effectively be pieces of Flemeth/Mythal, so as long as one daughter lives so does she. Probably Morrigan misunderstood what the Grimoire meant in that respect. A bit of her mother already does possess each of her daughters but lies dormant. It would certainly explain how the piece of herself that Flemeth placed into the eluvian could find the right recipient.
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Post by Gludipow on Aug 2, 2020 9:46:45 GMT
Let us be real, Red Lyrium is a threat, but it wouldn't have been one without the Blight in the first place.
So here is the thing, someone I spoke to on Twitter thinks that what Flemeth put in the mirror is actually Mythal's soul. That she sent it to Morrigan before Solas did some power sucking. Which seems plausible too. They believe this based on some data mining someone did, so obviously take it with a grain of salt.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 2, 2020 11:09:29 GMT
They believe this based on some data mining someone did, so obviously take it with a grain of salt. I read that too, I believe I saw it on the old Boards. I believe it also described the spirit that rose to confront Corypheus as "Flemeth nude" but I think that was for ease of design reference rather than suggesting it was Flemeth's spirit we saw rather than Mythal. I've never understood how you could separate Mythal's power from Mythal's soul; I'd have thought they would be one and the same. However, since Flemeth already did it with the amulet, I do see how she could place a piece of herself in many places as an insurance against attack, although presumably that would result in a reduction in power of the original. Since removing the essence from Flemeth seemed to kill her in that place and powered up Solas, I assumed it was probably a piece of Mythal. I still wonder what happened with Flemeth if you did not kill her in DAO when the ritual was enacted on the altar. Did she simply jump to the new location, did her body "die" in Ferelden and then dissolve to dust or what exactly? Still it does even leave the possibility that not only could the spirit had been passed on to another but even Flemeth herself could be revived a second time.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 2, 2020 14:10:47 GMT
I was going to post a crazy theory concerning a connection between Mythal, Tyrrda Bright-axe and Flemeth, only to discover it had already previously been discounted by David Gaider. Still researching various timelines has emphasised how appallingly bad they are when it comes to dates and making things tally.
Take Andraste's daughters for instance. We are told the youngest, Vivial was headstrong, fell in love with a Tevinter mage and went into self-imposed exile when the Exalted March began. However, WoT timeline has Andraste marrying Maferath in -187 and then the Exalted March starting in -180, which means even if Vivial had been an only child conceived on the wedding night, she would be barely 7, but she had an older sister. Not only that but the codex about Andraste's children says that because she was thought not able to have children, Maferath took a concubine who produced 3 sons for him before it was discovered Andraste could conceive. It is implied he did this only after their marriage but that would make the history of the daughters not work at all if they were meant to be old enough to marry before the Exalted March began or even, as I think more likely, around the time of the Battle of the Valarian Fields, when Andraste was preparing to march into Tevinter proper, nine years after the Exalted March started. Not only that but the history of Andraste's childhood has her experiencing a traumatic incident as a youth (which suggests somewhere between 7-12 years old) after which she was physically weak and unable to have children for 10 years.
I do wonder if when people are asked to come up with codices they actually trouble to make sure the timescales work with what we have previously been told?
It is a similar story further back in history. In the WoT timeline humans were said to have arrived in Thedas in -3100, still 250 years before the elves first noticed the Quickening in -2850 (which I assume was sometime after the Veil was raised) but near enough that the elves could have been confused about the responsibility of humans for their loss of immortality. However, the Keep timeline shows humans arriving in -3900, a thousand years before they lost their immortality. How was it possible to equate the two?
Then WoT says that Arlathan was founded roughly 3000 years before humans arrived, so around -6000 or -6900,but the Keep says it was -8400. Both sources say that the elves didn't make contact with the dwarves until -4600, so was early elven society totally non hierarchical if it was the war with the Titans that caused the rise to godhood of the Evanuris? If not, and that war came later, who was the earlier war with? Was Arlathan really the city in the Fade, so the Golden/Eternal City and the earthbound Arlathan only an extension of it once the elves/spirits crossed over into the Unchanging World? Otherwise, how do we understand Cole's words:
"They made bodies from the earth. And the earth was afraid. It fought back. But they made it forget."
That seem to fit with all the references we got to the titans in game but if the elves had been running around on the surface for so long with bodies, what suddenly made the Earth so afraid?
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Post by colfoley on Aug 2, 2020 23:37:19 GMT
I was going to post a crazy theory concerning a connection between Mythal, Tyrrda Bright-axe and Flemeth, only to discover it had already previously been discounted by David Gaider. Still researching various timelines has emphasised how appallingly bad they are when it comes to dates and making things tally. Take Andraste's daughters for instance. We are told the youngest, Vivial was headstrong, fell in love with a Tevinter mage and went into self-imposed exile when the Exalted March began. However, WoT timeline has Andraste marrying Maferath in -187 and then the Exalted March starting in -180, which means even if Vivial had been an only child conceived on the wedding night, she would be barely 7, but she had an older sister. Not only that but the codex about Andraste's children says that because she was thought not able to have children, Maferath took a concubine who produced 3 sons for him before it was discovered Andraste could conceive. It is implied he did this only after their marriage but that would make the history of the daughters not work at all if they were meant to be old enough to marry before the Exalted March began or even, as I think more likely, around the time of the Battle of the Valarian Fields, when Andraste was preparing to march into Tevinter proper, nine years after the Exalted March started. Not only that but the history of Andraste's childhood has her experiencing a traumatic incident as a youth (which suggests somewhere between 7-12 years old) after which she was physically weak and unable to have children for 10 years. I do wonder if when people are asked to come up with codices they actually trouble to make sure the timescales work with what we have previously been told? It is a similar story further back in history. In the WoT timeline humans were said to have arrived in Thedas in -3100, still 250 years before the elves first noticed the Quickening in -2850 (which I assume was sometime after the Veil was raised) but near enough that the elves could have been confused about the responsibility of humans for their loss of immortality. However, the Keep timeline shows humans arriving in -3900, a thousand years before they lost their immortality. How was it possible to equate the two? Then WoT says that Arlathan was founded roughly 3000 years before humans arrived, so around -6000 or -6900,but the Keep says it was -8400. Both sources say that the elves didn't make contact with the dwarves until -4600, so was early elven society totally non hierarchical if it was the war with the Titans that caused the rise to godhood of the Evanuris? If not, and that war came later, who was the earlier war with? Was Arlathan really the city in the Fade, so the Golden/Eternal City and the earthbound Arlathan only an extension of it once the elves/spirits crossed over into the Unchanging World? Otherwise, how do we understand Cole's words: "They made bodies from the earth. And the earth was afraid. It fought back. But they made it forget." That seem to fit with all the references we got to the titans in game but if the elves had been running around on the surface for so long with bodies, what suddenly made the Earth so afraid? As a writer who tries and does a lot of stuff which needs their own timelines this thing can and do get out of hand very quickly. I just think a lot of this stuff results from new information and trying to streamline things in further development. I have heard, for instance, that DA wasn't even supposed to be a series per se and Origins was...intiially...going to be it. Now there is some evidence both for and against that....some of the stuff with Flemeth in particular looks really odd if it was just going to be one game...but if that is true the they could simply have been working on updating the lore once they decided to franchise everything with DA 2 and Inquisition. Why they decided to change up some of the dates, if that is what is going on, is kind of a mystery. Maybe to make everything even more mysterious? Which brings me to in universe. Given DAs themes of 'history' and 'true history', and how important it might be for the future of the Dragon Age its not too much of a stretch to conclude that this is part of that whole thing...even if accidentally. Findinf the true history of things has come up over and over again especially in Inquisition as more stuff 'losts to the mists of time' get rediscovered. So some of the lore could be based on Chantry scholars' best guesses on when this stuff happened and the more modern lore is based on more accurate up to date information as new discoveries are made...or perhaps taking into account a Dalish perspective.
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Post by telanadas on Aug 3, 2020 4:27:48 GMT
Still researching various timelines has emphasised how appallingly bad they are when it comes to dates and making things tally. Honestly the hardest part about theory crafting around the dragon age universe is collating all the info from the varied forms of media and figuring out how they all line up. No wonder the writers get confused themselves Findinf the true history of things has come up over and over again especially in Inquisition as more stuff 'losts to the mists of time' get rediscovered. So some of the lore could be based on Chantry scholars' best guesses on when this stuff happened and the more modern lore is based on more accurate up to date information as new discoveries are made...or perhaps taking into account a Dalish perspective. This is true and I love that this is a valid excuse lol.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 3, 2020 4:31:43 GMT
Still researching various timelines has emphasised how appallingly bad they are when it comes to dates and making things tally. Honestly the hardest part about theory crafting around the dragon age universe is collating all the info from the varied forms of media and figuring out how they all line up. No wonder the writers get confused themselves Findinf the true history of things has come up over and over again especially in Inquisition as more stuff 'losts to the mists of time' get rediscovered. So some of the lore could be based on Chantry scholars' best guesses on when this stuff happened and the more modern lore is based on more accurate up to date information as new discoveries are made...or perhaps taking into account a Dalish perspective. This is true and I love that this is a valid excuse lol. I mean not only does it make for really good storytelling that is at least up my ally, have always been a bit of a history buff, it also makes for great cover when there ARE errors in the lore. Some random person: But the lore said!!! Patrick Weekes: Well the Lore was wrong...because Elves.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 3, 2020 8:33:54 GMT
Findinf the true history of things has come up over and over again especially in Inquisition as more stuff 'losts to the mists of time' get rediscovered. So some of the lore could be based on Chantry scholars' best guesses on when this stuff happened and the more modern lore is based on more accurate up to date information as new discoveries are made...or perhaps taking into account a Dalish perspective. That is what is weird about them changing the timeline in the Keep. In WoT the foundation of Arlathan is merely given as 1FA (elven calendar) and thought to be around 3000 years before humans but so far back in time it is difficult to pinpoint in the Chantry Calendar. That's great because it is basically saying when things are that ancient it is impossible to be sure about anything. Then they change it in the Keep to give it a precise date. Why? Also, if everything is that vague, how come a precise date was always put on the contact with the dwarves? Previously you'd think because it is recorded in the Memories but in view of all the stuff concerning the Titans that seems unlikely. From hints given in the Descent, I think it is likely that either the dwarves only started the Memories at that time and the first entry was concerning the elves, or someone erased the older entries. So I suppose I've explained that one. However, more recent history is another matter. What was the point of all that stuff about Andraste's children if it really has no relevance to the plot going forward? However, at least let it make a bit of sense. It is not as though they haven't got access to all the source material and I would have thought the timeline, seeing as it is also something recorded in the Keep, is something everyone would keep handy and refer to. Some random person: But the lore said!!! Patrick Weekes: Well the Lore was wrong...because Elves. I am starting to become a little tired of this excuse, particularly as early on people were saying about the Chantry History of the World, "but it only mentions humans", so it was hardly a surprise when practically everything in the Chant of Light concerning the history of the world seems refuted by revelations by Solas and Descent/Trespasser concerning the elves, titans, the early world and the Veil. I would still like an explanation of why nobody, apart from Solas and perhaps a few other ancient elves. is aware of the fact that there was time when there was no Veil, particularly when the timeline now indicates humans were definitely around during that period? I will admit though that the Avvar legend of the Lady of the Skies lifting up the home of the gods, Belenar, to where it could no longer be reached by even the most intrepid climber, does sound like they were around at the time the Veil was created. Since they seem to have continued a very healthy relationship with spirits despite the Veil, perhaps the fact the Fade was now impossible to reach was the only thing they felt the need to explain. However, this is why when Solas says there is "nothing in the lore" to connect his people with the Old Gods, he is likely being evasive because he doesn't mean his lore (fact) but human lore and they are two totally different things.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 3, 2020 8:45:53 GMT
Findinf the true history of things has come up over and over again especially in Inquisition as more stuff 'losts to the mists of time' get rediscovered. So some of the lore could be based on Chantry scholars' best guesses on when this stuff happened and the more modern lore is based on more accurate up to date information as new discoveries are made...or perhaps taking into account a Dalish perspective. That is what is weird about them changing the timeline in the Keep. In WoT the foundation of Arlathan is merely given as 1FA (elven calendar) and thought to be around 3000 years before humans but so far back in time it is difficult to pinpoint in the Chantry Calendar. That's great because it is basically saying when things are that ancient it is impossible to be sure about anything. Then they change it in the Keep to give it a precise date. Why? Also, if everything is that vague, how come a precise date was always put on the contact with the dwarves? Previously you'd think because it is recorded in the Memories but in view of all the stuff concerning the Titans that seems unlikely. From hints given in the Descent, I think it is likely that either the dwarves only started the Memories at that time and the first entry was concerning the elves, or someone erased the older entries. So I suppose I've explained that one. However, more recent history is another matter. What was the point of all that stuff about Andraste's children if it really has no relevance to the plot going forward? However, at least let it make a bit of sense. It is not as though they haven't got access to all the source material and I would have thought the timeline, seeing as it is also something recorded in the Keep, is something everyone would keep handy and refer to. Some random person: But the lore said!!! Patrick Weekes: Well the Lore was wrong...because Elves. I am starting to become a little tired of this excuse, particularly as early on people were saying about the Chantry History of the World, "but it only mentions humans", so it was hardly a surprise when practically everything in the Chant of Light concerning the history of the world seems refuted by revelations by Solas and Descent/Trespasser concerning the elves, titans, the early world and the Veil. However, this is why when Solas says there is "nothing in the lore" to connect his people with the Old Gods, he is likely being evasive because he doesn't mean his lore (fact) but human lore and they are two totally different things. I more or less brought up the 'Because Elves' thing as a joke. Anyways though you do raise a good point about going from vaguery to specifics. However it could still come down to that interchange between out of universe circumstances coupled with in universe lore. I mean maybe no one actually discovered these things that recently and they just decided to change the date but it is the most logical reason for such a change in the first place? As for the relevance to the plot. Andrastae's children or any number of stuff from the lore could have relevance moving forward. Or it could easily not have relevance moving forward. Sometimes background lore is just to add flavor to a work and make the world feel 'lived in' and I thought the whole Andrastae Children line was just BioWare 'poking fun' at the whole stuff from the Davinci Code and the rest. But then even if that is the intent that information now exists in Lore to bring it forward and make it relevant if they so chose.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 3, 2020 10:11:20 GMT
Okay, let's go with another crazy or not so crazy little theory. I've always been somewhat critical of Solas for not putting some sort of governance in place for the elven people when he went into Uthenera after bringing down the former government. However, I am now starting to reconsider my view on this and wonder if perhaps he did and that the place where his followers tried to establish a new community was the area of the Emerald Graves.
It was possible that all the elves went into Uthenera to await his return but what if they didn't. What if some of them tried making a go of it? In any case, even without that the area of the Exalted Plains and the Emerald Graves must have had significance to his followers at some point purely because of the prevalence of wolf statues across the area. That big one on top of the mountain in the Exalted Plains had to be from a earlier period than the Dales occupation. That homeland was only in occupation for around 300 years from its foundation before its fall. During that time I think the ex-slaves would have had better things to occupy their time than climbing up to the top of a mountain and carving a giant statue of a god they know as the Betrayer. The Dalish make offerings to appease the Dread Wolf but a giant statue honouring him would surely be taking that a tad too far, particularly when there was no indication he was even that bothered about what they were doing? However, the Evanuris were fond of giant statues but after he turned against them, wouldn't they have wanted to tear that one down? I'd have thought a bit of combined dragon fire would do the trick and make a big statement of how no one messes with the gods.
So a better explanation would be that his followers erected it during the period after he shut the Evanuris away. If many other enclaves went into seclusion, like the Sentinels, after the Veil, then they would have been largely left untroubled by their enemies among the elves. The main incursion of the humans was away to the north. Another reason to base themselves down there. Also, at that time, who is to say they may not have been able to get close to the Temple of Mythal without being attacked, bearing in mind Abelas did not hold the Dread Wolf responsible for her death. It would certainly explain the lament that is found on the tablet within its confines that seems well aware of why they are in the predicament they are but seem willing to make the most of it. "To the inevitable troubling freedom we are committed."
The Emerald Graves clearly had a significance to Solas. He comments: "These forests have changed much since I was last here." That doesn't seem much if you are still thinking of him as an apostate wanderer but when you know he was asleep until only a year previously, they take on a new meaning. How could they have changed that much in the intervening time? He must have walked there before he went into Uthenera. Of course the Dalish explain the numerous wolf statues in the area as tributes to the guardian wolves of the Emerald Knights? However, does that really seem likely? In fact it always seemed curious how they came up with the idea of guardian wolves in the first place. Not dogs, as suggested by Merrill in her story about Fen'Harel and the hound, but wolves. So isn't it more likely that the wolf statues came first and may be that is how the Emerald Knights came up with their idea? Did they misunderstand some reference they found there concerning the "wolf who watches over us and protects us"? Admittedly the Dalish use statues of Fen'Harel to ward off evil spirits from their camps but everything else about him is negative and why would they think normal wolves would do the same?
The wolf statue at Wolf Falls is definitely not of Dalish origin considering the magic that has kept it preserved from erosion. Interesting it is in a cave complex. May be this was used by his rebels in ancient times.
Then he says another thing close to "Elgar'nan's bastion". Again, not sure if this was a name that the Dalish assigned to it or has more a ancient origin but the tomb of the Emerald Knights is definitely something that must have been from an earlier era. This would seem confirmed by his words "My people built a life here...it must have been something to see."
It is curious though. He hardly ever refers to the elves as "my people" in that way. When referring to ancient times he normally tries to account for his familiarity by keeping himself slightly removed from the subject and he doesn't identify with modern elves at all. So is it possible he is actually referring to his followers trying to rebuild elven civilisation in the area of the Emerald Graves?
If that was the case, what happened to them? Well, of course, they may have suffered attack from any number of things down the years. They could even been wiped out by human diseases as the Dalish tales relate. However, that poem based off the text in the Temple of Mythal did end up in a Alamarri war poem. Since the sentinels would never have allowed Alamarri anywhere near their complex, how did that happen if there had not been interaction between some surviving elves and the southern barbarians? As the Tevinter Imperium pushed southwards any elves in the area would have likely either been captured or killed, with may be a few survivors retreating into the depths of the forests to escape. However, what if one of those captured was Shartan? So he wasn't Solas in another guise, or one of his ancient followers, but he did come from a community that honoured the Dread Wolf and so had preserved the tale of his rebellion among their folklore, which he then used to inspire a new rebellion.
This would explain why Andraste didn't just randomly give them the Dales as opposed to anywhere else but may be Shartan specifically asked for it because had been a sanctuary for his people in recent times. It always bothered me that it was all very well promising him the Dales but what of the people already living there? Would they happily go along with her promise simply because her mother had been Cirianne? However, if she already knew from her mother, and confirmed by Shartan, that the area had been occupied by the elves up until being driven out by Teinver, then she was simply promising they would get their former sanctuary back once Tevinter had been defeated.
It would also explain why, if the sword she gave him didn't already have a name, he named it Glandiavalis. It would also explain why there is no mention in the Canticle of Shartan of him honouring any god, even the Maker, although Andraste regards him as her equal in the eyes of the Maker and their mission to free the slaves, which is their purpose according to the Canticle, not spreading his religion. It would also explain why the name the elves came up with for this land was Dirthavaren, which just happens to be found in the password to Fen'Harel's sanctuary for runaway slaves. May be that was because that was already its name from the time of his rebellion.
Finally, it would explain why he has pity for the city elves but contempt for the Dalish. Remember they claim to be descended from the nobility of the Dales, in other words the leaders who took them into that war with Orlais, and then essentially the priesthood and their families abandoned the ordinary elves to their fate in the alienages, whilst they fled to escape retribution. So not only do they honour his ancient enemies with their customs and lore but they also lost the new hope for the free elves through their actions, the Dirthavaren.
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Post by telanadas on Aug 3, 2020 16:03:52 GMT
It was possible that all the elves went into Uthenera to await his return but what if they didn't. What if some of them tried making a go of it? In any case, even without that the area of the Exalted Plains and the Emerald Graves must have had significance to his followers at some point purely because of the prevalence of wolf statues across the area. That big one on top of the mountain in the Exalted Plains had to be from a earlier period than the Dales occupation. That homeland was only in occupation for around 300 years from its foundation before its fall. During that time I think the ex-slaves would have had better things to occupy their time than climbing up to the top of a mountain and carving a giant statue of a god they know as the Betrayer. The Dalish make offerings to appease the Dread Wolf but a giant statue honouring him would surely be taking that a tad too far, particularly when they was no indication he was even that bothered about what they were doing? However, the Evanuris were fond of giant statues but after he turned against them, wouldn't they have wanted to tear that one down? I'd have thought a bit of combined dragon fire would do the trick and make a big statement of how no one messes with the gods. I definitely have suspicions about the extent of Solas' involvement in the Emerald Graves..but also a lot of questions. *prepare to go down a rabbit hole*The line "These forests have changed much since I was last here." suggests to me that a ) he had a hand in Shartan's fate, or b ) he had plans for the Dales going back to before the veil. Considering I'm not really sold on the idea of him being Shartan just yet, I prefer the reasoning that he planned for the Dales to be the elves' "promised land" to live in peace and freedom after the veil was created. Solas says the line "my people built a life here...it must have been something to see" when you get to Elgar'nan's Bastion, which is right where Din'nan Hanin is (the knight's tomb). Going by what we know of Elgar'nan so far, I don't think he would have been on Solas/Mythal's side. So, this makes me think Solas intended to take over Elgar'nan's stronghold and re-purpose Din'nan Hanin as his own fortress or sanctuary for his people. The knight's tomb itself is interesting to analyse because it is clearly ancient and contains a lot of imagery of Mythal and Falon'Din (and so many of those four armed statues and busts, the creepy thing in the dark). Furthermore, this place also greets you with gilded statues of Fen'Harel right as you enter which implies it was a significant enough place for him to protect (just as significant as the deep roads in Trespasser). The tomb looks like a place that has been repurposed for death though, most likely by the Dalish going by the banners found inside. One of the codices says A blank space follows the names, as if more were to be carved. so it looks like the place became a place to guide/respect the dead after the start of the exalted march against the Dales. One thing that strikes me most about the knight's tomb are the mosaics which depict Mythal, Falon'Din, and June. June is particularly weird to me because you rarely ever see references to him. Yet at the Din'nan Hanin, there are two of his mosaics there right next to Mythal and Falon'Din. Now we know for a fact the Emerald knights wielded weapons crafted by the high keeper of June. Evanura's description: Forged by the High Keeper of June, God of the Craft, after the elven homeland's creation in the Dales, this sword passed from the first Emerald Knight, Mathalin, to his squire, Sulan, after the boy saved him in battle. The last Emerald Knight to wield it was Lindiranae, who fell in the Second Exalted March's final battle.Dhal Vallasan's description: The fabled elven smith Tanaleth of Halamshiral once made bows for the Fade Hunters, those Emerald Knights tasked with protecting the Dalish kingdom from maleficarum and demons.The high keeper of June was said to be Tanaleth, who was also an Emerald Knight: Tanaleth was a smith and the High Keeper of June; she spent her years rediscovering the arts of Arlathan.
This means at least one of the evanuris' high keepers survived the veil and aftermath, and led a faction of fighters who would eventually become the Emerald Knights. Was June in on Solas' rebellion too? Or did Solas somehow get June's high keeper on his side? Whatever the case may be, it seems like there were in fact a faction of leaders after the veil who became the foundation of the Dalish, including the high keeper of June. However, relics of slavery like the vallaslin, aravels, and halla (not sure about the full story on the origins of these creatures but the foreshadowing is already pretty dark) also survived. Are we supposed to believe that all these important details surrounding slavery in Elvhenan were lost in translation or never revealed by the rebellion? It was also around the time of the exalted march of the dales that the elves' faith in their gods began to wane:What care have I for gods I have never seen, for a Maker I do not know? Let others distract themselves with such lofty concerns. I know only this life, I have seen only this world, and I care only for you.So it's easy to surmise why Fen'Harel became so despised by the Dalish, especially after the fall of the Dales. But how did the Dalish get other facts so wrong? Simply mangling details and forgetting facts with time doesn't seem an adequate enough excuse, considering the Dalish vow never again to submit to slavery. However, what if one of those captured was Shartan? So he wasn't Solas in another guise, or one of his ancient followers, but he did come from a community that honoured the Dread Wolf and so had preserved the tale of his rebellion among their folklore, which he then used to inspire a new rebellion. Considering Shartan is seen as a legend made up of many people's actions, this sounds more plausible than him being Solas himself. emember they claim to be descended from the nobility of the Dales, in other words the leaders who took them into that war with Orlais, and then essentially the priesthood and their families abandoned the ordinary elves to their fate in the alienages This is confusing to me, because it's largely from the Emerald knights' knowledge that the Dalish culture is founded on. So why then did they keep things like the vallaslin, assuming they were survivors from Solas' rebellion? The fact that wolves are also associated with the knights seems to be a pretty big coincidence, considering all the other foreshadowing going on. It sure seems like a huge chunk of history is missing for the Dalish to have "forgotten" so much. Unless the veil really did effectively make them "forget", like the spirits in the shattered library.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 3, 2020 19:00:30 GMT
So why then did they keep things like the vallaslin, assuming they were survivors from Solas' rebellion? What I think may have happened is that the slaves of the Imperium that were the descendants of those taken from the city in the north were the ones who introduced those sorts of customs into the Dales. As I say, if the original community founded by the Wolf Pack had been attacked by the Imperium and many of them killed or enslaved, the survivors would only have been a small part of the refugees that made their way to Halamshiral. Initially the new arrivals seemed to be allowed to follow whatever traditions they had managed to retain. If the pro-Evanuris faction were greater than the Wolf Pack, it is possible the former started to influence the new community more than the latter. After all, they could hardly deny that Fen'Harel had in fact shut the gods away. Remember it is said that there were even elves devoted to the Forgotten Ones in the early Dales, so there does seem to have been quite a mixed bag of beliefs initially. We know that Ameridan honoured both Ghilan'nain and the Maker. I must admit I always found Gisharel's account of the Long Walk strange because whilst it does acknowledge it was "Shartan's dream" that they should have a homeland where "we could live as we choose", at the end of the story he says "And the gods rewarded those of us who did not waver by bringing us to the Dales." The gods didn't reward them. They were locked up in elven heaven and had not spoken since. I suppose he may have meant "their faith" kept them going on the road but it is still a bit of a stretch to give the credit to the gods, unless they were going to acknowledge the one god who might have been in a position to help from Uthenera. However, do note that Shartan wished them to live as they chose. He wanted them to be free to decide which gods, which customs, which traditions they wished to pursue. So it is at least possible that he was a follower of the wisdom of Fen'Harel and was devoted to the cause of freedom in all its forms rather than committed to restoring the worship of the Creators. As he died trying to rescue Andraste along with 100 of his People, may be his true vision of what they wanted the Dales to be was lost and the pro-Evanuris faction were the ones who ultimately dictated the direction their culture would take. It does seem curious to me that the Dalish not only claim to trace their noble houses back to the time of the Dales but even to the time of Arlathan. Whilst that might seem a bit of a stretch, it could explain why those who ended up as leaders of the Dales were so committed to recovering the old ways of the Evanuris. Then all they had to do was convince enough of the "commoner" elves that this was the right way to do it. After all, why have any "noble" houses at all? Weren't they all slaves together originally? So even if there isn't definite evidence there was a community in Dirthavaren before Shartan's rebellion, there are quite a few clues that there could have been and they were followers of Fen'Harel. It is just that over time their numbers weren't enough to balance out the pro-Evanuris group and naturally as the Dalish seem to have descended from them, the others have been left out of the lore.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 3, 2020 20:21:08 GMT
I'd also mention that I wouldn't dismiss out of hand the claim that each of the Dalish clans can trace their lineage back to the noble houses of Arlathan. The preface to the Canticle of Shartan says that the story was preserved in the oral tradition of the Dales until Divine Justinia I got some of her clerics to record it from some elves willing to narrate it to them. This seems to confirm that the elven slaves relied heavily on oral tradition to remember their lore. That does not necessarily mean it would be inaccurate. In fact all the more reason why it could be relied on because it is very important to those with oral rather than written traditions that it should be remembered correctly and those responsible for maintaining that oral tradition would often be carefully chosen, probably because they demonstrated having a good memory for detail.
If you want evidence of how lineages and stories can be persevered over many hundreds, even thousands of years, just look at the bible. There are numerous chapters that start with: A begat B begat C and so on, followed by the story concerning the person from that lineage, reflecting it was originally an oral tradition that was written down verbatim from the lore keeper. This is even found in the New Testament. Take a look at the beginning of Matthew. It starts with Abraham and ends with Jesus, thus following the entire timeline of the Jewish race from its founding father to the Roman occupation, around 2000 years. This covers a period of slavery in Egypt, during which it would have been entirely an oral tradition, and then later a period of exile in Babylon.
The period from the enslavement of the elves of Arlathan Forest to Shartan's rebellion was only around 800 years, so it is plausible that they could have kept the lineages and other important lore transmitted down the generations by oral transmission during that time. However, the ones responsible for preserving this would most likely have been from the ruling class of the city. Thus they would conveniently forget any associations between vallaslin and slavery if they ever even saw it as such. As I have previously suggested, it could have been a way of identifying whom was associated with each god and noble house supporting them, in much the same way as masks in Orlais identify which noble house you serve and thus who you are offending if you harm them. Unmarked commoners were probably fair game, literally in the case of Andruil, so naturally even the lesser elves felt privileged to have the vallaslin.
As Strife in Tevinter Nights stated that Arlathan Forest was under the protection of Andruil, it is likely the city in the forest was too. Hence the emphasis on the way of 3 trees in the customs they handed down. Naturally they were pro-Evanuris in their outlook, which is why the lore portrays them as benign teachers and protectors of the elves, as opposed to the trickster Fen'Harel who betrayed them and shut them away so they could no longer do so.
I'd also mention that even if some elves did view the vallaslin as slave markings originally, the moment Tevinter forbade them I dare say they immediately took on the significance they did later; a sign of defiance against the human overlords and determination to retain their own customs.
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Post by telanadas on Aug 4, 2020 13:17:47 GMT
I must admit I always found Gisharel's account of the Long Walk strange because whilst it does acknowledge it was "Shartan's dream" that they should have a homeland where "we could live as we choose", at the end of the story he says "And the gods rewarded those of us who did not waver by bringing us to the Dales." The gods didn't reward them. They were locked up in elven heaven and had not spoken since. I suppose he may have meant "their faith" kept them going on the road but it is still a bit of a stretch to give the credit to the gods, unless they were going to acknowledge the one god who might have been in a position to help from Uthenera. However, do note that Shartan wished them to live as they chose. He wanted them to be free to decide which gods, which customs, which traditions they wished to pursue. So it is at least possible that he was a follower of the wisdom of Fen'Harel and was devoted to the cause of freedom in all its forms rather than committed to restoring the worship of the Creators. As he died trying to rescue Andraste along with 100 of his People, may be his true vision of what they wanted the Dales to be was lost and the pro-Evanuris faction were the ones who ultimately dictated the direction their culture would take. hmm considering there are debates over whether Shartan was a single elf or multiple people who all sought "freedom" and a home, I could believe they were the last elves who actually remembered Solas' rebellion and they all eventually died out after Andraste was executed. Shartan was a title in itself- perhaps it meant something more to them back then, like how Solas means Pride? I'd also mention that even if some elves did view the vallaslin as slave markings originally, the moment Tevinter forbade them I dare say they immediately took on the significance they did later; a sign of defiance against the human overlords and determination to retain their own customs. This is a good point, and I forgot the elves barely have any written history. I suppose after all those years of history things would inevitably be lost in translation. And yeah, I'm sure part of it would also be reclaiming some lost culture too especially since Tevinter was ransacking everything they had. But thinking about it still...you would think if Solas' people really had survived that far in time, they would at least ensure their kin remembered why the veil was created in the first place. After all, the Dalish remember the fact Fen'Harel imprisoned the gods, but not for the reasons they think. Andraste's rebellion happened centuries after Tevinter's ransacking of Arlathan so I'd expect at least some of them to know the truth of their false gods, because slavery was so intertwined with their every day. They just about went from one slave situation to another with not much of a reprieve, and their motto is "never again shall we submit" yet they still forgot so much about the very things tying them to slavery. Actually it's funny that the veil itself didn't even register in recorded history at all. People have just considered it as always being a part of life...so I'm wondering maybe the veil's creation really did have an effect on everyone's minds and perceptions? Like you know the feeling when you wake up from a dream and you just can't remember what it was you were dreaming about? But then you might have the same dream the next day or the next week and realise it was in your subconscious all along? Maybe that's what happened with the veil - and everyone's just operating on a piece of themselves. When the veil is destroyed everyone will be just like they were. Maybe that's why everyone thought the golden city was golden - because it was always that way before the veil. Or ...maybe I'm just nitpicking...but I do hope they pad out this section of history more in the next game.
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Post by Psychevore on Aug 4, 2020 14:46:02 GMT
If the Chantry is right, then Solas is the Maker.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 4, 2020 15:06:18 GMT
Actually it's funny that the veil itself didn't even register in recorded history at all. People have just considered it as always being a part of life...so I'm wondering maybe the veil's creation really did have an effect on everyone's minds and perceptions? Like you know the feeling when you wake up from a dream and you just can't remember what it was you were dreaming about? I think the only explanation for why no one makes the creation of the Veil connected with anything and many things in pre-Veil history were forgotten is that it did somehow affect people's recollection. Solas says it seemed to him like moving through a world full of tranquil. Well, Pharamond says that being tranquil is like living constantly in a dream in which you are watching yourself without fully participating. (I can't check the exact words because I seem to have mislaid my copy of Asunder). In DAO tranquil do seem to be able to remember something of how they were before the rite but it is possible a lot is missing because of the lack of emotional engagement. In DA2 when Karl loses the connection with the Fade again and returns to being tranquil, he actually is puzzled and asks why we are looking at him in the way we are? Yet whilst tranquil he can still recognise Anders, so its like he remembers some bits but not others. So may be Solas describing the current races as like tranquil is closer than we think. That's why there is a precise record of when the elves made contact with the dwarves in pre-history but that probably only relates to when they started recording things in the memories. There is no mention of the titans because the elves made them forget them before the written record began. There are indications that the races partially remember the events surrounding the Veil. The Avvar legend of the Lady of the Skies raising the home of the gods to where mortals could no longer reach it is one but since it is claimed humans only started gaining magical ability after the Veil and they were never immortal there is no way their legend would connect a loss of these with the Veil. The elves appear so traumatised by the events surrounding it and were the worst affected by it, that everything got muddled in their minds. Still the Dalish do remember Fen'Harel locked away their gods, they do remember they were once all gifted with magic, they do remember they were immortal and they do remember they went into Uthenera shortly after, after which they probably lost track of the passage of time until rudely awakened by the arrival of the Tevinter Imperium. Then when they woke up again, they just seemed to think that the Veil had always been there. Remember it is possible that only Solas knew precisely what he had done. So even his own followers didn't necessarily equate the Veil with his actions. May be they thought it was a side-effect of the loss of the gods, not the cause of it. Or they just thought it was part of the fuzziness they felt through no longer being so connected with the Fade. hmm considering there are debates over whether Shartan was a single elf or multiple people who all sought "freedom" and a home, I could believe they were the last elves who actually remembered Solas' rebellion and they all eventually died out after Andraste was executed. Shartan was a title in itself- perhaps it meant something more to them back then, like how Solas means Pride? Well I'm just going to throw out here that may be the reason Shartan could be in many places at virtually the same time was because he was using the eluvians. Just as the rulers of Orlais seem to have collected magical items to place on display in their homes, including an eluvian in the Winter Palace, probably Tevinter did the same. Since they never worked out their function, they were probably left as a status symbol in the residences of important Magisters across the Imperium. Very convenient if you are trying to organise a slave rebellion. Now I know Morrigan says the network was shut down at the time of the elven civil war, probably by Solas to prevent his enemies from using them, that doesn't preclude them being used again before the time of the Dragon Age. In fact in Masked Empire, Imshael claims the last time they were used in Orlais was during the war between the elves and that nation and the network was closed down when the Orlesians took Halamshiral. I've queried before if that was a mistake by the author but I don't think so. PW got everything else correct concerning the ancient elves and the network, so it is entirely possible that the eluvians could have been used by Shartan. The network was likely closed off again when he died taking the password with him, which is why the refugee slaves couldn't just use the eluvians to get to Halamshiral, but then perhaps later one of the elven leaders did a deal (possibly with Imshael) to get them working again at the time of their war with Orlais. Which would account how the elven army could have got to Val Royeaux without having to cross the Waking Sea or fight their way around the Heartlands first, thus taking the capital by surprise. So since the human scholars, who thought Shartan wasn't a real person but a title, wouldn't have known about the eluvians, that was the only explanation they could come up with for Shartan being behind the rebellion in so many cities. After all WoT2 said people were similarly perplexed about Briala and we know she was only one person.
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Post by grallon on Aug 4, 2020 15:28:35 GMT
... Remember it is possible that only Solas knew precisely what he had done. So even his own followers didn't necessarily equate the Veil with his actions. May be they thought it was a side-effect of the loss of the gods, not the cause of it. Or they just thought it was part of the fuzziness they felt through no longer being so connected with the Fade.
We found preserved memories in Vir Dirthara which were recorded after the Veil was raised, and one of them clearly stated some knew it was Fen'Harel's doing. One even says: "If I survive this I will end Fen'Harel'. But perhaps this was quickly forgotten once the survivors of the initial disaster died out.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 4, 2020 16:00:54 GMT
We found preserved memories in Vir Dirthara which were recorded after the Veil was raised, and one of them clearly stated some knew it was Fen'Harel's doing. They knew the destruction was owing to something Fen'Harel did but they may have not known he created the Veil or even that was the reason everything was falling apart. They likely knew he was responsible for the disappearance of the gods and that clearly coincided with the chaos and destruction that followed the Veil but for all they knew it could have been the absence of the gods and their magic that made everything fall apart. They were in an area that straddled the Fade and the Unchanging World so would they even realise there was some sort of magical barrier if they were in the middle of it? So Fen'Harel was to blame for the disappearance of the gods and the destruction that followed by no one seemed to equate this with the Veil. Tevinter was studying the Veil for years but still no one seemed to know exactly what the Veil is and I would imagine Solas is the only one who does.
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Post by Mithras on Aug 5, 2020 10:31:39 GMT
And now, for the craziest theory of all: the Maker has already returned.
Consider, in Dragon Age: Origins, the party reaches their destination at precisely the moment they are needed such as, for instance, Redcliff where they appeared before the very last night when the town could still be saved. In Inquisition, a random manservant, bereft of skills and charisma, could have been the one to interrupt Corypheus' ritual. Instead, it was a person would be capable of uniting Thedas against Corypheus and, eventually, even physically defeat him in combat. Now, we know that these things happen because it is a videogame. However, in universe, how does one explain such perfect timing without Divine intervention? So, the Maker has already returned but He isn't interested in sitting on a throne in Val Royeaux being worshipped, instead working behind the scenes to protect Thedas.
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