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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 26, 2019 15:58:45 GMT
Pandering to the loudest and often the most stupid, worst, and toxic parts of the fanbase will KILL a series faster than anything. In my opinion, they are listening to the most stupid, worst and toxic parts, but not of the fanbase.
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Post by zan on Jul 26, 2019 16:02:30 GMT
I am honestly not sure they are listening at all. I think EA is now largely relying on metrics collected from their games, not player feedback. And I do think metrics are useful, but I don't think you can develop high quality games based on metrics alone. There needs to be a vision for what you want to accomplish and willingness to admit and learn from one's failures.
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Post by zan on Jul 26, 2019 16:31:31 GMT
I am not sure that listening to sycophants is good for long term game development either. Listening to constructive criticism is one of the best ways to improve and neither haters nor rabid fanboys provide that. But it really is worth one's time to dig through a pile of steaming crap to find that piece of honest and well argued feedback. Tossing the pile of crap out might seem like a good solution, but it also eliminates the possibility of looking for said feedback (cough old BW forums). Of course if one can't admit that their product is flawed to begin with, then no amount of constructive feedback will help.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2019 16:33:34 GMT
Bioware doesn't read these forums, so it's hard to get your message across to them.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 26, 2019 16:48:02 GMT
Right, the people who called Bioware lazy, incompetent, and liars is the same fanbase you think Bioware should pander to? I don't think they are lazy. The end result may come off as lazy, but hard work was put into every single aspect of their games, I am not going to diminish anyone's work. Which is all the more frustrating, because that hard work isn't represented in the final product. In the old BSN, I had a talk with one of the devs, I forget his name. Was there a Schumacher on the dev team? Or something like that? Anyways, let's call him Mr. Schumacher. I think I had exchanged a few talks with him and I had said that, the way I saw it, ME3 had a 18 month development cycle and I couldn't see them realistically producing a ME3 that could address all the plot points raised through the in so far duology and to which I was reassured that development had started on ME3 before ME2 was even finalized, so it wasn't an issue and while the statement was technically true, ME3 was in pre-production before ME2 was finalized, remained in pre-production for quite a while after ME2 was released and as a result, no, 18 months weren't enough to develop ME3 into the game it needed to be. Whether I believed Mr. Schumacher was absolutely honest with me when he said that they could do it? I do believe that he believed it at the time. As such, can I harbour any ill will towards Mr. Schumacher? No. No, I do not. Can I, however, be critical of Bioware for calling us, the consumers, the fanbase, entitled and dumb for not understanding their artistic vision and because their ... let's not call them promises, since you disagreed with that term, rather their surprise pre-release marketing material . So, do I fault them for their final product ultimately not living up to their surprise pre-release marketing material? Yes, yes I do. I think the fanbase that supported them deserved better, I think the characters that they so vividly produced in their games deserved better and I do believe their hard work deserved better. Bioware did get something out of that ME3 ending debacle; longer development cycles. It's why they no longer release a game per year and why they enjoy a four to seven year production cycle for their games nowadays. I just wish they didn't have to earn that at the expense of ME3.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 26, 2019 16:55:13 GMT
Bioware doesn't read these forums, so it's hard to get your message across to them. Is the point of this comment to simply not discuss anything on this forum, then?
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Post by Iakus on Jul 26, 2019 17:14:14 GMT
Pandering to the loudest and often the most stupid, worst, and toxic parts of the fanbase will KILL a series faster than anything. In my opinion, they are listening to the most stupid, worst and toxic parts, but not of the fanbase. Indeed. More often than not, the one's most eager to throw the term "toxic" around are the real toxic parts of the fanbase.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 26, 2019 17:14:54 GMT
Bioware doesn't read these forums, so it's hard to get your message across to them. So why are you here? Just trolling?
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 26, 2019 17:19:02 GMT
Bioware doesn't read these forums, so it's hard to get your message across to them. So why are you here? Just trolling? Oh come on guys. I also don't believe that BW pays a lot of attention to what's going on here (no do I really think that as a company they should consider the opinions of the dozen or so people who post here regularly above their other marketing research). Doesn't mean it's pointless to discuss here, it's just for us, not for them (which is precisely what magnetit wrote). It's basically the same premise as for 99.999% of the internet.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 26, 2019 17:21:18 GMT
So why are you here? Just trolling? Oh come on guys. I also don't believe that BW pays a lot of attention to what's going on here (no do I really think that as a company they should consider the opinions of the dozen or so people who post here regularly above their other marketing research). Doesn't mean it's pointless to discuss here, it's just for us, not for them (which is precisely what magnetit wrote).
It's as genuine question. What's the point in coming into this thread and cr*pping all over it, the OP, and the petition?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 26, 2019 17:21:40 GMT
I am honestly not sure they are listening at all. I think EA is now largely relying on metrics collected from their games, not player feedback. And I do think metrics are useful, but I don't think you can develop high quality games based on metrics alone. There needs to be a vision for what you want to accomplish and willingness to admit and learn from one's failures. All that data from the always online games they put out, even as far back as ME2, sure did yield Bioware some precious information on how to just ... fuck their shit up, apparently.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 26, 2019 17:27:17 GMT
Oh come on guys. I also don't believe that BW pays a lot of attention to what's going on here (no do I really think that as a company they should consider the opinions of the dozen or so people who post here regularly above their other marketing research). Doesn't mean it's pointless to discuss here, it's just for us, not for them (which is precisely what magnetit wrote).
It's as genuine question. What's the point in coming into this thread and cr*pping all over it, the OP, and the petition? To be honest, I could relate to his first post in this thread. I also didn't like that sentence he quoted. More broadly, I don't like these generalized claims about "YOUR fanbase and [the] gaming community". The organizer of this petition, can speak for themrselve and everyone who signs that petition (because they consent to that opinion) but don't speak for everyone, especially not in such an aggressive and confrontational tone.
And since the OP posted the whole thing here, clearly he wanted (or at least must have expected) the contents of the link to be discussed in this thread. I don't see the problem.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 26, 2019 17:30:53 GMT
I am honestly not sure they are listening at all. I think EA is now largely relying on metrics collected from their games, not player feedback. And I do think metrics are useful, but I don't think you can develop high quality games based on metrics alone. There needs to be a vision for what you want to accomplish and willingness to admit and learn from one's failures. I believe they do. Before Andromeda was announced, there was a thread for folks to post ideas/suggestions of what they would like to see in the next ME game. Even a few Bioware employees participated in the thread from time to time. There was a Bioware employee on this forum who posted a few times after MEA was released. He exchanged a few posts with others. If you go to the DA section, there's a Bioware employee who has posted with responses to some of the ideas folks have put forward of what they like to have in the next DA game.
I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware employees read posts from other forums to read what people have to say about their products. Some may read an idea from someone, and like it, but it has nothing to do with what they want to do. They may even laugh at some, nod their head in approval at some, and might even take a part of an idea to put in a future game.
Bioware doesn't read these forums, so it's hard to get your message across to them. Are you sure? They don't have to be a member to read posts on this forum.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2019 17:46:46 GMT
So why are you here? Just trolling? If I did have issues with them, I'd tell them about it directly. Perhaps the feedback I was going to give has already been said by someone else. For example, Andromeda using UE4 instead of Frostbite? Yeah, that's already been brought up in the news, so I'm sure they know about it.
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Post by Iakus on Jul 26, 2019 18:24:12 GMT
It's as genuine question. What's the point in coming into this thread and cr*pping all over it, the OP, and the petition? To be honest, I could relate to his first post in this thread. I also didn't like that sentence he quoted. More broadly, I don't like these generalized claims about "YOUR fanbase and [the] gaming community". The organizer of this petition, can speak for themrselve and everyone who signs that petition (because they consent to that opinion) but don't speak for everyone, especially not in such an aggressive and confrontational tone.
And since the OP posted the whole thing here, clearly he wanted (or at least must have expected) the contents of the link to be discussed in this thread. I don't see the problem.
And I don't like being called toxic or entitled for not liking Bioware's more recent games. But I have the courtesy to not storm into pro-Anthem threads and start talking crap about it or the posters.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 26, 2019 18:56:00 GMT
To be honest, I could relate to his first post in this thread. I also didn't like that sentence he quoted. More broadly, I don't like these generalized claims about "YOUR fanbase and [the] gaming community". The organizer of this petition, can speak for themrselve and everyone who signs that petition (because they consent to that opinion) but don't speak for everyone, especially not in such an aggressive and confrontational tone.
And since the OP posted the whole thing here, clearly he wanted (or at least must have expected) the contents of the link to be discussed in this thread. I don't see the problem.
And I don't like being called toxic or entitled for not liking Bioware's more recent games. But I have the courtesy to not storm into pro-Anthem threads and start talking crap about it or the posters. Not sure where you are seeing this in this thread though. From what I can see it's been a spirited but civil discussion. No one called you toxic and entitled, least of all for not liking BW's recent games. At least not in this thread.
Someone made a general point that it's probably not a good idea for BW to pander to the most toxic part of their fanbase (which is arguably true). But what does that have to do with you personally?
Someone posted a link to a petition that "demanded" certain actions. Now we are discussing in this thread whether or not those actions would be to our liking or in BW's best interest. Thus we are discussion the linked petition, whether BW even notices any of it or not and other related points. Again, not sure what the problem is.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 26, 2019 19:05:49 GMT
Pandering to the loudest and often the most stupid, worst, and toxic parts of the fanbase will KILL a series faster than anything. In my opinion, they are listening to the most stupid, worst and toxic parts, but not of the fanbase.
I move forward not backwards, which is why people who scream "that MET was the greatest series ever" are fucking IDIOTS.
ME1 has horrible combat, graphics, the Mako, characters that were nothing more than glorified codex entries, the worst BioWare villain, and Mark Meer's performance was horrible, (Jennifer Hale was great though) it got by on an interesting sci-fi mash up universe and the idea that are choices matter.
ME2 lost most of the original team outside of cameos and gave us a ton of new characters and FORCED us to play more or less as a Cerberus agent even if we didn't want to, a better combat system but with so many weapons, and plot that barely held together.
ME3 had a weird run/walk animation for Shepard, auto dialogue, a massive plot contrivance with the Crucible, the choices from 1 and 2 either came off as jokes, or just didn't matter in the least, and a controversial endings.
It's no big secret that I LOVE MEA it did have it flaws but I still enjoy the fuck out of it, because it was the Mass Effect game that I needed not what that I wanted. It's characters are more complex and 3-Dimisnonal than any of from ME1, the Archon is a great pure evil bastard villain, and it's got a more interesting setting than any post-ending ME3 could have hoped to be, the story, characters, graphics, the environments the romances, and voice performances are all great and the combat/gameplay/puzzles and the Nomad is the best vehicle (or mount) BioWare has ever done. It's serious without being depressing, and fun without being stupid.
But because BioWare didn't give those useless morons a game that would've "fixed" ME3 and to be brutally honest even if they did do that it wouldn't fixed the endings because storytelling isn't time travel and the ONLY way to fix the endings to ME3 is too completely remake the entire trilogy and EA isn't too big on remasters in general, I doubt that they're going to remake ANY game that they own the rights too because they don't want too.
My standards are high and probably very different from yours I wager, so you can spare you're reply because I'm done debating the merits of MEA and BioWare to haters. If you want to change BioWare then go work for BioWare that is the only you will make the change that you want. Otherwise you're wasting your time and more importantly my time by pissing in the wind on an unofficial BioWare message board "hoping to make BioWare change".
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Post by Phantom on Jul 26, 2019 19:10:00 GMT
In my opinion, they are listening to the most stupid, worst and toxic parts, but not of the fanbase.
I move forward not backwards, which is why people who scream "that MET was the greatest series ever" are fucking IDIOTS.
ME1 has horrible combat, graphics, the Mako, characters that were nothing more than glorified codex entries, the worst BioWare villain, and Mark Meer's performance was horrible, (Jennifer Hale was great though) it got by on an interesting sci-fi mash up universe and the idea that are choices matter.
ME2 lost most of the original team outside of cameos and gave us a ton of new characters and FORCED us to play more or less as a Cerberus agent even if we didn't want to, a better combat system but with so many weapons, and plot that barely held together.
ME3 had a weird run/walk animation for Shepard, auto dialogue, a massive plot contrivance with the Crucible, the choices from 1 and 2 either came off as jokes, or just didn't matter in the least, and a controversial endings.
It's no big secret that I LOVE MEA it did have it flaws but I still enjoy the fuck out of it, because it was the Mass Effect game that I needed not what that I wanted. It's characters are more complex and 3-Dimisnonal than any of from ME1, the Archon is a great pure evil bastard villain, and it's got a more interesting setting than any post-ending ME3 could have hoped to be, the story, characters, graphics, the environments the romances, and voice performances are all great and the combat/gameplay/puzzles and the Nomad is the best vehicle (or mount) BioWare has ever done. It's serious without being depressing, and fun without being stupid.
But because BioWare didn't give those useless morons a game that would've "fixed" ME3 and to be brutally honest even if they did do that it wouldn't fixed the endings because storytelling isn't time travel and the ONLY way to fix the endings to ME3 is too completely remake the entire trilogy and EA isn't too big on remasters in general, I doubt that they're going to remake ANY game that they own the rights too because they don't want too.
My standards are high and probably very different from yours I wager, so you can spare you're reply because I'm done debating the merits of MEA and BioWare to haters. If you want to change BioWare then go work for BioWare that is the only you will make the change that you want. Otherwise you're wasting your time and more importantly my time by pissing in the wind on an unofficial BioWare message board "hoping to make BioWare change".
Then why are you here?
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Post by Iakus on Jul 26, 2019 19:17:10 GMT
And I don't like being called toxic or entitled for not liking Bioware's more recent games. But I have the courtesy to not storm into pro-Anthem threads and start talking crap about it or the posters. Not sure where you are seeing this in this thread though. From what I can see it's been a spirited but civil discussion. No one called you toxic and entitled, least of all for not liking BW's recent games. At least not in this thread. Someone made a general point that it's probably not a good idea for BW to pander to the most toxic part of their fanbase (which is arguably true). But what does that have to do with you personally?
Someone posted a link to a petition that "demanded" certain actions. Now we are discussing in this thread whether or not those actions would be to our liking or in BW's best interest. Thus we are discussion the linked petition, whether BW even notices any of it or not and other related points. Again, not sure what the problem is.
Saying Cyberstrike, in agreeing with magnetite, basically called anyone who supports the petition "toxic" And while I didn't sign it (it won't do any good, imo) , I DO support it's existence. Isn't a "discussion" At best, it's lecture. What does it have to do with me? It has to do with the constant shaming of people who don't like the direction Bioware has gone in. If you don't love Anthem, you're "salty" If you don't like ME3, you're entitled, etc. We skeptics pretty much need "free speech zones" on these forums to escape the abuse, and still we get followed. So support the petition, don't support it, whatever. But don't be a douche about it. Even if you are part of the protected class of this place.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 26, 2019 19:35:13 GMT
Not sure where you are seeing this in this thread though. From what I can see it's been a spirited but civil discussion. No one called you toxic and entitled, least of all for not liking BW's recent games. At least not in this thread. Someone made a general point that it's probably not a good idea for BW to pander to the most toxic part of their fanbase (which is arguably true). But what does that have to do with you personally?
Someone posted a link to a petition that "demanded" certain actions. Now we are discussing in this thread whether or not those actions would be to our liking or in BW's best interest. Thus we are discussion the linked petition, whether BW even notices any of it or not and other related points. Again, not sure what the problem is.
Saying Cyberstrike, in agreeing with magnetite, basically called anyone who supports the petition "toxic" And while I didn't sign it (it won't do any good, imo) , I DO support it's existence. Isn't a "discussion" At best, it's lecture. What does it have to do with me? It has to do with the constant shaming of people who don't like the direction Bioware has gone in. If you don't love Anthem, you're "salty" If you don't like ME3, you're entitled, etc. We skeptics pretty much need "free speech zones" on these forums to escape the abuse, and still we get followed. So support the petition, don't support it, whatever. But don't be a douche about it. Even if you are part of the protected class of this place. Well, I think you are taking things too personally. All those sentences you quoted, I generally agree with and I don't see any of them as insults/rants against the people who discuss here (and as you know I am one of the more avid critics of the direction BW went in the last couple of years as well). It's just a viewpoint of how BW should decide as ti how to continue with their products. And while I don't agree with every decision they made, I do believe just listening to a very select group of people (us or the petition subscribers) is not the answer. They need to do wider research that is less biased to get a big picture of their atual audience, the majority of which is very likely gonna be silent.
Also, I just want to point out that I think you misinterpreted one of those quotes (the middle one. Look at the whole sentence: Sounds to me like BioWare is accused of being the insatiable party there, not the fans.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2019 20:12:38 GMT
It's the other way around. Fans couldn't be satisfied, because everyone wanted different things from the endings, and it would be impossible to make something that caters to everyone.
Mass Effect has always been a mass produced game, not a made to order game. Game would cost hundreds of millions if it was made to order, and some I argued with ages ago said that's what they wanted from it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2019 21:41:27 GMT
It's the other way around. Fans couldn't be satisfied, because everyone wanted different things from the endings, and it would be impossible to make something that caters to everyone.
Mass Effect has always been a mass produced game, not a made to order game. Game would cost hundreds of millions if it was made to order, and some I argued with ages ago said that's what they wanted from it.
I agree. Bioware simply can't afford to listen to the variety of their outspoken fans who all want different things. They need to chase the broader trends of the more moderate (and usually silent) majority of players... and they get better at doing that then they currently are if they are going to survive as a company.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2019 22:03:33 GMT
Untrue. People want to go back, because the new galaxy produced nothing worthwhile. As a result the fanbase has shrunk, Bioware's name has suffered and their attempts to trade their old "core" audience for a new, 12 year old one has not proved fruitful, in so far. The point is you don't trade a good thing for something inferior. If Andromeda has wowed everyone and had provided people with something to get on board, I wouldn't be here having this discussion with you, I would be playing Andromeda and its DLCs. BS - More than 99.99999999% of the New Galaxy (i.e. Andromeda) has not, as yet, been revealed to us. If you can say that there's so much left in the Milky Way to be explored, the EXACT SAME thing holds true for Andromeda... and MORE. Unlike MET, which basically consumed the entire galaxy by dotting mission planets throughout all quadrants of the space, thereby limiting how much entirely new, totally undiscovered areas logically remains, they reveal a single cluster... which contained a more recent vision of how stellar objects interact within the real universe... but please go on and dismiss all of that out of hand because that's your version of "fair criticism." I say your version of fair criticism is fearmongering... the sky is falling... BS.
... and some of us are playing Andormeda... and still enjoying even without DLCs.
OP: Resounding NO to signing your petition.
ETA: Quoting you from a different post:
More fearmongering BS because you have no way of knowing which "sides" of the various inputs (fan base) they are currently listening to. No one here does because Bioware hasn't announce anything about the contents of a next Mass Effect game.
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Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
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SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
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sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 27, 2019 10:18:09 GMT
In my opinion, they are listening to the most stupid, worst and toxic parts, but not of the fanbase.
I move forward not backwards, which is why people who scream "that MET was the greatest series ever" are fucking IDIOTS.
ME1 has horrible combat, graphics, the Mako, characters that were nothing more than glorified codex entries, the worst BioWare villain, and Mark Meer's performance was horrible, (Jennifer Hale was great though) it got by on an interesting sci-fi mash up universe and the idea that are choices matter.
ME2 lost most of the original team outside of cameos and gave us a ton of new characters and FORCED us to play more or less as a Cerberus agent even if we didn't want to, a better combat system but with so many weapons, and plot that barely held together.
ME3 had a weird run/walk animation for Shepard, auto dialogue, a massive plot contrivance with the Crucible, the choices from 1 and 2 either came off as jokes, or just didn't matter in the least, and a controversial endings.
It's no big secret that I LOVE MEA it did have it flaws but I still enjoy the fuck out of it, because it was the Mass Effect game that I needed not what that I wanted. It's characters are more complex and 3-Dimisnonal than any of from ME1, the Archon is a great pure evil bastard villain, and it's got a more interesting setting than any post-ending ME3 could have hoped to be, the story, characters, graphics, the environments the romances, and voice performances are all great and the combat/gameplay/puzzles and the Nomad is the best vehicle (or mount) BioWare has ever done. It's serious without being depressing, and fun without being stupid.
But because BioWare didn't give those useless morons a game that would've "fixed" ME3 and to be brutally honest even if they did do that it wouldn't fixed the endings because storytelling isn't time travel and the ONLY way to fix the endings to ME3 is too completely remake the entire trilogy and EA isn't too big on remasters in general, I doubt that they're going to remake ANY game that they own the rights too because they don't want too.
My standards are high and probably very different from yours I wager, so you can spare you're reply because I'm done debating the merits of MEA and BioWare to haters. If you want to change BioWare then go work for BioWare that is the only you will make the change that you want. Otherwise you're wasting your time and more importantly my time by pissing in the wind on an unofficial BioWare message board "hoping to make BioWare change".
You mad.
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Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
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7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 27, 2019 11:02:39 GMT
BS - More than 99.99999999% of the New Galaxy (i.e. Andromeda) has not, as yet, been revealed to us. If you can say that there's so much left in the Milky Way to be explored, the EXACT SAME thing holds true for Andromeda... and MORE. Unlike MET, which basically consumed the entire galaxy by dotting mission planets throughout all quadrants of the space, thereby limiting how much entirely new, totally undiscovered areas logically remains, they reveal a single cluster... which contained a more recent vision of how stellar objects interact within the real universe... but please go on and dismiss all of that out of hand because that's your version of "fair criticism." I say your version of fair criticism is fearmongering... the sky is falling... BS. You are completely missing the point, yet again and making it personal. It's not personal, it's collective. The problem isn't what might be out there, it's what is there and the gaming community didn't like it, or liked it significantly less compared to the OT and the argument that a sequel there might be good, is not compelling enough. You won't stop the trolls, the clickbaiters and the memes with might be good. Not after the Andromeda and Anthem memes. Heaven forbid should we also have Dragon Age 4 memes by then. You are severely underestimating the significance of the gaming community's reception of Bioware's future products and in the grand scheme of things, however much you like their current direction, you are one person and cannot compensate for the 6 million sales projections of EA.
... and some of us are playing Andormeda... and still enjoying even without DLCs. You can enjoy everything, I am not judging you, this is not personal.
OP: Resounding NO to signing your petition. In that we are in agreement. More fearmongering BS because you have no way of knowing which "sides" of the various inputs (fan base) they are currently listening to. No one here does because Bioware hasn't announce anything about the contents of a next Mass Effect game. I know which side they are not listening to and I know that the side they are listening to has failed to produce a viable product. This isn't fearmongering, these are the facts.
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