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Post by biggydx on Aug 8, 2019 0:32:07 GMT
I'm sure it'll end up being in the next Dragon Age, but do you think there are any evolutions that could be made to the system to further improve it?
I've always felt that there should be room for support combos that would proc additional (beneficial) effects whenever two support abilities are used in conjunction with one another. To give an example:
Lets say you have a Mage with a support ability that provides Ice Resistance to an ally, and a Warrior with an ability that fortifies their armor; both are temporary effects. If the Warrior casts this armor fortification ability while the Mages Ice Resistance ability is still in affect on said warrior, it triggers a new type of effect that shrouds the Warrior in Ice. This would provide a damage reduction bonus, as well as allowing the warrior to deal ice damage.
Just my own thoughts on what could be done with the mechanic.
Just for a bit of detail and history: The combo system is a gameplay mechanic that involves using two abilities (one used after the other) in order to "prime" and "detonate" a target. This can cause the target to take on a status effect, additional damage, or both.
It originally appeared in Mass Effect 2, where Warp had the ability to trigger a Biotic explosion on targets affected by either Pull or Singularity. Dragon Age 2 added additional types of combo status effects that were based on your characters class; known as Cross-class combos. Each class could prime a target with their respective class status effect (ex. Warriors would prime "Stagger"), and another class could detonate the primed target to trigger additional effects. Mass Effect 3 ultimately saw the system come into prominence, with abilities across different classes working in tandem to create varying combo effects. Players could also boost the strengths of these combo effects as well; such as increasing the size of a Biotic explosion. DA:I and ME:A made slight evolutions on the system, adding additional effects and combo types. Finally, Anthem altered the combo system by having your Javelin determine the manner in which damage (or status effects) were distributed to targets. Setting off a combo with the Ranger would deal significant damage to affected target, while the Colossus would distribute that damage in an AoE around the affected target.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2019 1:06:57 GMT
I preferred ME3s system and Inquisitions to be honest.
As for 4 I don't really know I think what I want is a contradiction. I want to be able to know i/ my companions have set up a combo and detonated it... something loud and flashy. Like landing a crit in Inquisition. Or how they handled in 3, setting off fire was a thing of beauty. But I just generally want more team synergy in general. Like having your warrior pin a charging enemy opening them up to a devestating shot, be able to coordinate more effective battle plans and actually watch your companionsdo more. BioWare might be on the right track on this stuff but more would be really appreciated.
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Post by melbella on Aug 8, 2019 1:19:03 GMT
My preference ranges from don't care to get rid of them. I want to be able to have a party of who I want whenever I want, and not be unable to get to a place / achieve whatever because I'm without a certain class. There should be no locked areas/items inaccessible by the PC. The loot was crap at the Winter Palace, but it still annoyed me that some doors or chests could only be opened if I was playing as a rogue.
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Post by phoray on Aug 8, 2019 2:44:53 GMT
I now know what a cross class combo is.
Never in all of my playthroughs have I intentionally done such a thing. I bring people based on story. If they suck as combatants, I work on armor and buffs to make up the difference.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 8, 2019 2:46:27 GMT
I want weapon choice and weapon skill trees to be entirely separate from class choice and class skill trees. I should be able to be a staff-wielding rogue or a two-hander wielding mage.
DAI already had mage weapons that looked like and were animated like 2-handed swords, so the distinction is obviously arbitrary and not a technological limitation, nor is it justified in the lore.
In fact, lore-wise, it's ridiculous that mages DON'T at least attempt to develop other combat skills when they know full well that they could end up in a situation where their magical abilities may be unavailable.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 8, 2019 2:55:48 GMT
My preference ranges from don't care to get rid of them. I want to be able to have a party of who I want whenever I want, and not be unable to get to a place / achieve whatever because I'm without a certain class. There should be no locked areas/items inaccessible by the PC. The loot was crap at the Winter Palace, but it still annoyed me that some doors or chests could only be opened if I was playing as a rogue. I disagree. I want hard limitations on what a PC can/can't do by themselves. I mean, why not just make all dialogue options available as well, while we're at it? Hell, how about we never get locked out of any content, regardless of any of our choices?
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2019 3:09:51 GMT
My preference ranges from don't care to get rid of them. I want to be able to have a party of who I want whenever I want, and not be unable to get to a place / achieve whatever because I'm without a certain class. There should be no locked areas/items inaccessible by the PC. The loot was crap at the Winter Palace, but it still annoyed me that some doors or chests could only be opened if I was playing as a rogue. I disagree. I want hard limitations on what a PC can/can't do by themselves. I mean, why not just make all dialogue options available as well, while we're at it? Hell, how about we never get locked out of any content, regardless of any of our choices? well they have gone in that direction, a bit, already. It will be interesting to see if they limit certain options behind a specialty gate again.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 8, 2019 3:14:45 GMT
I disagree. I want hard limitations on what a PC can/can't do by themselves. I mean, why not just make all dialogue options available as well, while we're at it? Hell, how about we never get locked out of any content, regardless of any of our choices? well they have gone in that direction, a bit, already. It will be interesting to see if they limit certain options behind a specialty gate again. I mean, that's good too, but I specifically want gameplay/narrative options that are only available if I brought the right party member, or combo of party members. I don't see the point in making it a party-based game if the PC can just do everything by themselves. If I wanted Skyrim, I would just go play that.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 8, 2019 4:09:32 GMT
Cross-class Combos. I do like combos, critical hits, and cinematic finishers. Cross-class combos I don't have an issue with, but ideally I'd also like to be able to make self-combos, and combos between two different characters of the same class. I do miss the spell combos from DA:O. But with combat changing in DA4, it's hard to make specific requests.
Classes & Challenges I like the idea of certain challenges/obstacles which can be overcome in an ideal way by a particular class, and in un-ideal ways by other classes. But no gating challenges/obstacles behind a specific class.
Eg. Locked doors/chests - the ideal way would be with a rogue. Quick and quiet. But other classes could just bash/blast away it for long enough to overcome it, but would attract the attention of every enemy in the area (the less ideal approach). They might just come at you, or start fortifying their positions.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2019 4:23:45 GMT
Cross-class Combos. I do like combos, critical hits, and cinematic finishers. Cross-class combos I don't have an issue with, but ideally I'd also like to be able to make self-combos, and combos between two different characters of the same class. I do miss the spell combos from DA:O. But with combat changing in DA4, it's hard to make specific requests. Classes & ChallengesI like the idea of certain challenges/obstacles which can be overcome in an ideal way by a particular class, and in un-ideal ways by other classes. But no gating challenges/obstacles behind a specific class. Eg. Locked doors/chests - the ideal way would be with a rogue. Quick and quiet. But other classes could just bash/blast away it for long enough to overcome it, but would attract the attention of every enemy in the area (the less ideal approach). They might just come at you, or start fortifying their positions. or increase your notoriety.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 8, 2019 4:52:01 GMT
Cross-class Combos. I do like combos, critical hits, and cinematic finishers. Cross-class combos I don't have an issue with, but ideally I'd also like to be able to make self-combos, and combos between two different characters of the same class. I do miss the spell combos from DA:O. But with combat changing in DA4, it's hard to make specific requests. Classes & ChallengesI like the idea of certain challenges/obstacles which can be overcome in an ideal way by a particular class, and in un-ideal ways by other classes. But no gating challenges/obstacles behind a specific class. Eg. Locked doors/chests - the ideal way would be with a rogue. Quick and quiet. But other classes could just bash/blast away it for long enough to overcome it, but would attract the attention of every enemy in the area (the less ideal approach). They might just come at you, or start fortifying their positions. or increase your notoriety. Notoriety?
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Post by apollexander on Aug 8, 2019 5:26:25 GMT
Overall the CCC system is good and feels somewhat tactical. However, CCC has been implemented in every recent Bioware game (DAI, MEA, Anthem) and it began to feel uninspired. I would rather they develop some new combat systems. If CCC is still in DA4, then they need to solve the problem that CCC relies on debuffs which bosses are almost always immune to. CCC is usually useless in a boss fight.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2019 5:52:15 GMT
or increase your notoriety. Notoriety? instead of a bounty system which instantly teleports enemies to your location have more of a system where if you do something which draws attention to yourself...assuming your a spy...then that could put enemies more on alert or just make things in general harder for you.
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 8, 2019 6:14:48 GMT
I really like the OP's idea of combining a warrior's fortify armour ability with a mage's ice resistance spell. I'd like to see something like that in DA4.
Unfortunately however, BioWare's combo system has been simplified with almost every iteration to the point that some abilities are merely primers while others are detonators, causing extra damage with some boom and screen shake and the word COMBO jumping into your face a dozen times.
That said, I would prefer the combat system getting a complete overhaul to remove most of the "magic-like" abilities from warriors and rogues. They simply make very little sense in a setting where magic ability is rare and has such a huge effect on a person's life. It should stand out in gameplay too. Even non-magical abilities could create combos, like a warrior executing a flurry attack that opens multiple bleeding wounds and a mage casting some poison cloud at the poor sod or a rogue tossing a nasty powder at them. Just like the original ice resistance/armour fortification example, I would strongly prefer defined combo effects over a generic "prime and boom".
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 8, 2019 9:12:01 GMT
I found it really obnoxious and unintuitive in DA2. DAI was OK. In the big picture I dont have much time to set it up in action RPGs - and the AI is rarely capable enough to use them neither. Therefore they need to be simple.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Aug 8, 2019 9:32:00 GMT
I enjoyed the combos in dao but have largely ignored the cross combos of later games.
Freezing an enemy with cone of cold and then watching them smash when my warrior or rogue got a critical hit, or mage cast rockfist, was fun. On the other hand, abilites priming or detonating with no particular rhyme or reason was sort of vague and uninteresting to me.
I'd like da4 to have combos from specific abilities and affects that make sense. Eg. A rogue throws a flask of oil to slow/disadvantage any enemy that enters its aoe. A mage casts an aoe fire spell or any character throws a fire bomb item and it catches fire, damaging anyone inside.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 8, 2019 9:42:30 GMT
I enjoyed the combos in dao but have largely ignored the cross combos of later games. Freezing an enemy with cone of cold and then watching them smash when my warrior or rogue got a critical hit, or mage cast rockfist, was fun. On the other hand, abilites priming or detonating with no particular rhyme or reason was sort of vague and uninteresting to me. I'd like da4 to have combos from specific abilities and affects that make sense. Eg. A rogue throws a flask of oil to slow/disadvantage any enemy that enters its aoe. A mage casts an aoe fire spell or any character throws a fire bomb item and it catches fire, damaging anyone inside. Actually visible effects would be nice. I loved stuff in DA2 like the force mage spells that sent enemies spinning around the place. Oil flasks and the like that make enemies slip or trip would be great.
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Post by coldsteelblue on Aug 8, 2019 10:19:02 GMT
I think personally, for these combo's to be truly effective, we need to return of customisable tactics, makes controlling the battlefield that much better in my opinion, no having to keep pausing the game to micromanage just how each character behaves, just set it all up in one menu & go.
Just my thoughts
Oh & yeah, defensive buff combos are an awesome idea.
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 8, 2019 13:47:55 GMT
This is maybe more specific than what this thread is looking for, but I’d like to see group permastealth as a combo. I very much enjoy sneaking past fights, but it’s hard to do that without a 100% rogue party, which is very limiting banter-wise.
Now suppose mages had a spell that could “explode” conditions+buffs in a small AoE around a single target. In combat, it would require lots of careful planning to be useful (I’m imagining that it’s a very small AoE and an expensive sustain, reserving most of the mage’s mana). Out of combat, you could cluster together and have a rogue permastealth, then spread the buff to the rest of the party.
But, with very precise CCs to group enemies close together, you could also use it to eke more value out of marks of death, or upgraded poisons, or other stuff that’s super powerful but usually single-target. However, you’d have to be careful not to target an enemy with a powerful buff, as their buffs would spread too. Also any conditions could spread to your melee combatants if they’re too close.
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Post by biggydx on Aug 8, 2019 16:14:52 GMT
I think personally, for these combo's to be truly effective, we need to return of customisable tactics, makes controlling the battlefield that much better in my opinion, no having to keep pausing the game to micromanage just how each character behaves, just set it all up in one menu & go. Just my thoughts Oh & yeah, defensive buff combos are an awesome idea. Dude, I miss the Tactics system from DA2. It made it so much easier to ensure your companions triggered combos. I don't know why they removed it. It's not even that I'm saying there weren't technical limitations to it, but an explanation would have been nice at least. Having no say in whether your companions will act upon primed targets means the combo mechanic gets underutilized. I'd like da4 to have combos from specific abilities and affects that make sense. Eg. A rogue throws a flask of oil to slow/disadvantage any enemy that enters its aoe. A mage casts an aoe fire spell or any character throws a fire bomb item and it catches fire, damaging anyone inside. This kinda reminds me of Divinity Original Sins combo system (probably not called that, but work with me). You could put down a cloud of smoke, and it you fired a bolt of electricity into it, it would electrify the entire cloud, damaging anyone inside. Maybe that's another mechanic that BioWare could learn from.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 8, 2019 16:32:28 GMT
Dude, I miss the Tactics system from DA2. It made it so much easier to ensure your companions triggered combos. I don't know why they removed it. It's not even that I'm saying there weren't technical limitations to it, but an explanation would have been nice at least. Actually, they have explained their reasoning a few times over the years. I believe LukeBarrett touched on it in another thread as well. I can't remember all the reasons why, but IIRC, some of the reasons why were things like - few ever used it, it was poorly understood, etc..
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Post by biggydx on Aug 8, 2019 16:52:48 GMT
Dude, I miss the Tactics system from DA2. It made it so much easier to ensure your companions triggered combos. I don't know why they removed it. It's not even that I'm saying there weren't technical limitations to it, but an explanation would have been nice at least. Actually, they have explained their reasoning a few times over the years. I believe LukeBarrett touched on it in another thread as well. I can't remember all the reasons why, but IIRC, some of the reasons why were things like - few ever used it, it was poorly understood, etc.. Hmmm. I wonder if this issue could have been alleviated if a greater emphasis was placed on the combo system, as well as having a tutorial on how to use the Tactics system to do things like setting up cross-class combos.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 8, 2019 20:49:03 GMT
Actually, they have explained their reasoning a few times over the years. I believe LukeBarrett touched on it in another thread as well. I can't remember all the reasons why, but IIRC, some of the reasons why were things like - few ever used it, it was poorly understood, etc.. Hmmm. I wonder if this issue could have been alleviated if a greater emphasis was placed on the combo system, as well as having a tutorial on how to use the Tactics system to do things like setting up cross-class combos. A deep tutorial system would certainly help (FFXV springs to mind), it would just be a question whether they felt it would be worth the cost/time to create it.
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Post by Beerfish on Aug 8, 2019 20:57:10 GMT
More important for MP rather than single player to me.
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Post by biggydx on Aug 9, 2019 1:55:10 GMT
A deep tutorial system would certainly help (FFXV springs to mind), it would just be a question whether they felt it would be worth the cost/time to create it. I don't remember FFXV having a tactics system. Maybe you meant FFXII (which was called the Gambit system)? That one was pretty in-depth, and had plenty of gambit (AI commands) that you could choose from.
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