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Post by alanc9 on Aug 8, 2019 5:09:48 GMT
could have be handled with more nuance if written by someone that is the target of being labeled as those things, and that an internalized racism storyline could have been better written and handled with more nuance if also written by someone who faces those things( which is irrelevant, because her being a mage is not an internalized racism storyline. Isn't that a plausible reading of her character? (Not her storyline, since this aspect doesn't go anywhere.)
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 8, 2019 5:13:15 GMT
But he didn't. He explained that Dorian is "coded as Indian"; but does that actually say anything about him beyond that he has a particular complexion? Or is it a mistake to think that this is supposed to matter at all? I thought "coded" was supposed to mean something more than "looks like," because otherwise we'd just be saying "looks like" rather than getting all fancy about it. Emphasis mine. When they designed his face, they designed him to look Indian the way they designed Vivienne to look black. There is even a video with Matt Rhodes where you can see some concept art of him with pictures of a few South Asian people as references particularly for his skin and eye color. He was originally going to have an Indian accent. His father still does have an Indian accent. His father was also designed to look like an Indian man. If Dorian were real, he would be of Indian descent. The devs have even stated his real world analogue as Indian. That is (racial) coding. It is ways writers let you know what characters are meant to be without outright saying it as obviously, calling him Indian in-universe would not make sense. I'm still looking for how this means anything besides "Dorian looks Indian." (Which, again, I'm just taking on faith here, since I don't really see it.) I'm not sure what "let you know what characters are meant to be" is supposed to mean, but since you bolded it I guess it's important. Dorian's supposed to be from Tevinter. What else is he "meant to be"?
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Aug 8, 2019 5:29:51 GMT
alanc9 Let me paraphrase. "Racial coding is a way that writers let you know what characters are meant to be without outright saying it." That's really it. That's all there is to coding a person as a race that we are familiar with in the real world, but which does not exist in the fictional setting. Then @edexios goes on to use Dorian as an example. It would not make sense to call him "Indian" in the Dragon Age universe, because there is no India and therefore there are no Indians in Thedas. We can see in DAI that Dorian has brown skin, straight or loosely wavy black hair, green eyes, and a narrow, aquiline nose, which are characteristics we see in people from India and Afghanistan in the real world. But he is not Indian, because it does not exist in Thedas. He is Tevinter, which does exist in Thedas. If we had not been introduced to Dorian visually - say, for example, we first encountered him in a book, he would probably have been described as having brown skin, straight or loosely wavy black hair, green eyes, and a narrow, aquiline nose. He would not have been described as "Looking like he is Indian." Because, again, India does not exist in Thedas. Coding is a way to describe a person's features and traits without making reference to something that would break immersion/be nonsensical in the fictional setting.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 8, 2019 5:34:15 GMT
I don't know if "coded" is the right word. Dorian isn't a metaphor for a South-East Asian man, and his presence doesn't really say anything about South-East Asian men. He just happens to resemble one physically, which isn't the same thing.
And skin colour regardless, Tevinter as a whole is pretty clearly taking inspiration from the Roman empire.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Aug 8, 2019 5:37:13 GMT
I don't know if "coded" is the right word. Dorian isn't a metaphor for a South-East Asian man, and his presence doesn't really say anything about South-East Asian men. He just happens to resemble one physically, which isn't the same thing. And skin colour regardless, Tevinter as a whole is pretty clearly taking inspiration from the Roman empire. Yes, that's all fine. I'm not trying to justify the use of the word "coding". I'm just trying to explain what @edexios meant because alanc9 asked.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 8, 2019 5:39:07 GMT
I don't know if "coded" is the right word. Dorian isn't a metaphor for a South-East Asian man, and his presence doesn't really say anything about South-East Asian men. He just happens to resemble one physically, which isn't the same thing. And skin colour regardless, Tevinter as a whole is pretty clearly taking inspiration from the Roman empire. Yes, that's all fine. I'm not trying to justify the use of the word "coding". I'm just trying to explain what @edexios meant because alanc9 asked. Sure. It was mostly for the sake of my own clarification.
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Post by gervaise21 on Aug 8, 2019 7:32:46 GMT
I'm still looking for how this means anything besides "Dorian looks Indian." (Which, again, I'm just taking on faith here, since I don't really see it Let me paraphrase. "Racial coding is a way that writers let you know what characters are meant to be without outright saying it." That's really it. That's all there is to coding a person as a race that we are familiar with in the real world, but which does not exist in the fictional setting I don't know if "coded" is the right word. Dorian isn't a metaphor for a South-East Asian man, and his presence doesn't really say anything about South-East Asian men. He just happens to resemble one physically, which isn't the same thing. I assume that the use of the word "coding" is specifically because that is the information that those coding the graphics need to know. Essentially though it is rather like those surveys you are asked to tick the box which you feel closest describes your ethnicity. This then can be used by the organisation to show they are unbiased (or not as the case may be) when it comes to selection. This may be relevant to the current discussion as it would seem the game devs specifically wanted Dorian to appear as though he came from the Indian sub-continent and thus they could show they were being inclusive as to racial appearance. It might also suggest that they realised that there should start to be some consistency of appearance for citizens of Tevinter that was appropriate to its location (hot and sub-tropical), particularly among the Altus that are said to have kept to a very small gene pool. Admittedly Alexius and his son did not share this ethnicity but they are from a different region in Tevinter, so there was no problem with that. Nevertheless, coding for appearance is just that; it may have a relevance for a player who shares that ethnic appearance but in terms of how the character is written it is not relevant at all. The culture and history of different regions in Thedas may reflect those in the real world but are not exact copies and, as in the case of the elves, are a mishmash of several ethnic groups.
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Post by phoray on Aug 8, 2019 11:21:25 GMT
which is irrelevant, because her being a mage is not an internalized racism storyline. Isn't that a plausible reading of her character? (Not her storyline, since this aspect doesn't go anywhere.) There is a pale skinned self hating mage in Origins. If it's internalized racism for Viv then what is it for that woman?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 14:31:15 GMT
I don't know if "coded" is the right word. Dorian isn't a metaphor for a South-East Asian man, and his presence doesn't really say anything about South-East Asian men. He just happens to resemble one physically, which isn't the same thing. And skin colour regardless, Tevinter as a whole is pretty clearly taking inspiration from the Roman empire. No, coded is the right word. Dorian is a "metaphor" for a South Asian man. He is meant to be Indian. He is Tevinter in the world and Indian out of it. The people who created him made him Indian. If you wish to pretend you know better than the devs about their own creation then go to Tumblr. The base of racial coding for human characters in fictional worlds is appearance/real world ethnicity/race. It is for Vivienne as she has no other racial coding besides it and no one argues she is not black. She is from a country with no other named black people that resembles Spain, she has a british accent, is voiced by a white and Indian woman, lives in a country resembling France, and has a French name. She is still black (coded). Sometimes racial coding is more like their clothes their food their culture besides just what their real world race is meant to be. Most of the time for Bioware it is not.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 8, 2019 14:43:47 GMT
I don't know if "coded" is the right word. Dorian isn't a metaphor for a South-East Asian man, and his presence doesn't really say anything about South-East Asian men. He just happens to resemble one physically, which isn't the same thing. And skin colour regardless, Tevinter as a whole is pretty clearly taking inspiration from the Roman empire. No, coded is the right word. Dorian is a "metaphor" for a South Asian man. He is meant to be Indian. He is Tevinter in the world and Indian out of it. The people who created him made him Indian. If you wish to pretend you know better than the devs about their own creation then go to Tumblr. The base of racial coding for human characters in fictional worlds is appearance/real world ethnicity/race. It is for Vivienne as she has no other racial coding besides it and no one argues she is not black. She is from a country with no other named black people that resembles Spain, she has a british accent, is voiced by a white and Indian woman, lives in a country resembling France, and has a French name. She is still black (coded). Sometimes racial coding is more like their clothes their food their culture besides just what their real world race is meant to be. Most of the time for Bioware it is not. Calm the fuck down and look into the X-Men, maybe?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 14:51:39 GMT
I'm still looking for how this means anything besides "Dorian looks Indian." That is all racial coding needs to be. I do not understand what it is you do not get. Racial coding is not nearly as complicated and does not need to be as extensive as you think it has to be. Vivienne is black but lives in a world where black as a race is not a category and that is it. She is black coded. Dorian is Indian but lives in a world where India does not exist. He is Indian coded. In Avatar (excluding the water tribe) the appearance of the people, the food, the culture, the clothes are all Asian. But their world is not Asia. It is Asian coded. Two of the examples are just appearance, one is almost everything else, all are examples of racial (and more, but it lends to the racial)coding.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 14:54:34 GMT
Calm the fuck down and look into the X-Men, maybe? I am not the one who brought it up again. Or is arguing that the devs are wrong about their own game. Sorry that you unknowingly romanced a brown man.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 8, 2019 15:29:32 GMT
Calm the fuck down and look into the X-Men, maybe? I am not the one who brought it up again. Or is arguing that the devs are wrong about their own game. Sorry that you unknowingly romanced a brown man. I did not "unknowingly" do anything; the devs explicitly stated in interviews that they made Dorian brown-skinned (after initial concept art depicted him as white), after casting his voice actor, Ramon Tikaram. That is not the same thing as intending the character or his culture to be read as "Indian" which, like, what does that even mean? India's a pretty diverse place in terms of art, culture, religion, etc. Hell, Pakistan was part of "Undivided India", which some Indians call "Akhand Bharat", until 1947, and you might have heard that these days they don't really get along. I learned that nifty little tidbit from my brown Pakistani ex-boyfriend. You'd probably read him as "Indian". I wasn't arguing anything, but I'm definitely now questioning the way you read it. How does, "I think the term 'coding' has been misapplied in this instance" get translated to, "Brown men are gross, and I would never pretend-date one"?
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 8, 2019 15:55:09 GMT
I'm still looking for how this means anything besides "Dorian looks Indian." That is all racial coding needs to be. I do not understand what it is you do not get. Racial coding is not nearly as complicated and does not need to be as extensive as you think it has to be. Vivienne is black but lives in a world where black as a race is not a category and that is it. She is black coded. Dorian is Indian but lives in a world where India does not exist. He is Indian coded. In Avatar (excluding the water tribe) the appearance of the people, the food, the culture, the clothes are all Asian. But their world is not Asia. It is Asian coded. Two of the examples are just appearance, one is almost everything else, all are examples of racial (and more, but it lends to the racial)coding. It's just that I didn't realize that all we were doing was swapping in a slightly more pretentious term. Blame the vid midnight tea linked back on page 108, which was using the word to refer to something more interesting. Closer to what pessimistpanda is talking about above. But I take it that we're not actually talking about that? Culture, tropes, and all of that are completely off the table and we\re only talking about appearances?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 17:09:07 GMT
I am not the one who brought it up again. Or is arguing that the devs are wrong about their own game. Sorry that you unknowingly romanced a brown man. I did not "unknowingly" do anything; the devs explicitly stated in interviews that they made Dorian brown-skinned (after initial concept art depicted him as white), after casting his voice actor, Ramon Tikaram. That is not the same thing as intending the character or his culture to be read as "Indian" which, like, what does that even mean? India's a pretty diverse place in terms of art, culture, religion, etc. Hell, Pakistan was part of "Undivided India", which some Indians call "Akhand Bharat", until 1947, and you might have heard that these days they don't really get along. I learned that nifty little tidbit from my brown Pakistani ex-boyfriend. You'd probably read him as "Indian". I wasn't arguing anything, but I'm definitely now questioning the way you read it. How does, "I think the term 'coding' has been misapplied in this instance" get translated to, "Brown men are gross, and I would never pretend-date one"? The "skin color regardless Tevinter is based on the Roman Empire and that is the only type of coding that counts" comment is what I was referencing. Obviously you would pretend to date one as you are now. Wikipedia pages do not count as Pakistani, or even Pakistani coded.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 17:10:33 GMT
That is all racial coding needs to be. I do not understand what it is you do not get. Racial coding is not nearly as complicated and does not need to be as extensive as you think it has to be. Vivienne is black but lives in a world where black as a race is not a category and that is it. She is black coded. Dorian is Indian but lives in a world where India does not exist. He is Indian coded. In Avatar (excluding the water tribe) the appearance of the people, the food, the culture, the clothes are all Asian. But their world is not Asia. It is Asian coded. Two of the examples are just appearance, one is almost everything else, all are examples of racial (and more, but it lends to the racial)coding. It's just that I didn't realize that all we were doing was swapping in a slightly more pretentious term. Blame the vid midnight tea linked back on page 108, which was using the word to refer to something more interesting. Closer to what pessimistpanda is talking about above. But I take it that we're not actually talking about that? Culture, tropes, and all of that are completely off the table and we\re only talking about appearances? Nothing about the video contradicts what was said. Replace fantasy creatures with humans from fantasy worlds. Tolkien coded the orcs after the Mongols, as said so himself, by nothing other then a racist description of their appearance.
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Post by phoray on Aug 8, 2019 17:30:17 GMT
Nothing about the video contradicts what was said. Replace fantasy creatures with humans from fantasy worlds. Tolkien coded the orcs after the Mongols, as said so himself, by nothing other then a racist description of their appearance. What is the point of arguing that he's coded or whatever word that you want to use though? what is the whole purpose of this conversation? It's like you've handed us a random definition of something but we don't see how it argues your point.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 17:52:49 GMT
Nothing about the video contradicts what was said. Replace fantasy creatures with humans from fantasy worlds. Tolkien coded the orcs after the Mongols, as said so himself, by nothing other then a racist description of their appearance. What is the point of arguing that he's coded or whatever word that you want to use though? what is the whole purpose of this conversation? It's like you've handed us a random definition of something but we don't see how it argues your point. You called him Persian. I corrected and said he is meant to be Indian since we were using real world terms. Then there was a barrage of "He is not Indian he is Tevinter" Thus my clarification of him being Indian coded which I thought was obviously already implied and an unneeded add on the way it is when Vivienne is called black. I would not have to argue anything if it had not been brought up again and again because someone is incapable of understanding what it means and thinks that a simple definition must be a wrong one. If Vivienne is called black it is assumed people are referring to her like that the same way they refer to her as a fictional character or as a companion or as the game ai or as a non-romance. People understand when you call her black the "coded" is implied and that you are talking about her from and out of game perspective. No one says anything when you call her black, not that black people do not exist in Thedas as a class, not that the country she is from is more like Spain and that cancels out her being black. It should be the same for Dorian. That is the point.
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Post by phoray on Aug 8, 2019 17:55:27 GMT
Oh. I thought this was in response to how you were trying to defend a poorly written article about how the entire elven race and literally all non white characters should only be written by people who face the sort of issues they face in Thedas as well as the sort of issues IRL non white people face. My counterargument is that is an absurd requirement. knowing what coding means doesn't argue anything but I see now it was not related to the conversation we were having.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 18:12:04 GMT
Oh. I thought this was in response to how you were trying to defend a poorly written article about how the entire elven race and literally all non white characters should only be written by people who face the sort of issues they face in Thedas as well as the sort of issues IRL non white people face. My counterargument is that is an absurd requirement. knowing what coding means doesn't argue anything but I see now it was not related to the conversation we were having. The author said they thought someone who has faced racism would be better at writing an internalized racism storyline (Sera's). That is a completely valid opinion and nothing is absurd about it. Nothing about all elves and all poc needing to be written by poc, nothing about how all elves would be better written if written by poc. I do not know how you can call something poorly written when you are making arguments over things that were not even written.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2019 18:15:23 GMT
What is the point of arguing that he's coded or whatever word that you want to use though? what is the whole purpose of this conversation? It's like you've handed us a random definition of something but we don't see how it argues your point. You called him Persian. I corrected and said he is meant to be Indian since we were using real world terms. Then there was a barrage of "He is not Indian he is Tevinter" Thus my clarification of him being Indian coded which I thought was obviously already implied and an unneeded add on the way it is when Vivienne is called black. I would not have to argue anything if it had not been brought up again and again because someone is incapable of understanding what it means and thinks that a simple definition must be a wrong one. If Vivienne is called black it is assumed people are referring to her like that the same way they refer to her as a fictional character or as a companion or as the game ai or as a non-romance. People understand when you call her black the "coded" is implied and that you are talking about her from and out of game perspective. No one says anything when you call her black, not that black people do not exist in Thedas as a class, not that the country she is from is more like Spain and that cancels out her being black. It should be the same for Dorian. That is the point. I can guarantee you if I call Viv 'black' it will have nothing to do with any real life coding. As you have even pointed out there are far more interesting (and relevant) pieces to her character.
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Post by phoray on Aug 8, 2019 18:17:14 GMT
call something poorly written when you are making arguments over things that were not even written. you keep claiming the author didn't write that. Except that they listed them as examples in an overall arching point they were trying to make, is that downtrodden peoples should be written by downtrodden peoples. Since Bioware says the elves are specifically mimicking the jewish and romani people, that would imply only jewish and romani people should be writing all elves. And that Sera, I guess, should only be written by a POC who has personally been ashamed of their own skin color. Or that, at the very least, the writers themselves should be immersing themselves and interviewing people who admit to the above. I never believed that Sera hated herself for being an elf. I thought she hated the narrative that had been created about elves that elves were then expected to follow (that they should hate humans for the past and the present, that they should accept the status quo, that elves are inherently different from humans). People are just people, and she's saying a big "Fuck you" to that narrative. I thought she hated that the Dalish rejected her when she attempted to contact them. but hating HERSELF? no. Therefore a self hating POC is not required for input into putting even yet more nuance on a character I find nuanced and fascinating already edited for a bit more clarity.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 8, 2019 18:19:02 GMT
call something poorly written when you are making arguments over things that were not even written. you keep claiming the author didn't write that. Except that they listed them as examples in an overall arching point they were trying to make, is that downtrodden peoples should be written by downtrodden peoples. Since Bioware says the elves are specifically mimicking the jewish and romani people, that would imply only jewish and romani people should be writing all elves. And that Sera, I guess, should only be written by a POC who has personally been ashamed of their own skin color. Or that, at the very least, the writers themselves should be immersing themselves and interviewing people who admit to the above. I never believed that Sera hated herself for being an elf. I thought she hated the narrative that had been created about elves that elves were then expected to follow. I thought she hated that the Dalish rejected her when she attempted to contact them. but hating HERSELF? no. Therefore a self hating POC is not required for input into putting even yet more nuance on a character I find nuanced and fascinating already if anything viv fits that mold more.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 18:20:49 GMT
I can guarantee you if I call Viv 'black' it will have nothing to do with any real life coding. As you have even pointed out there are far more interesting (and relevant) pieces to her character. And the other 99% of the time when other people are calling Vivienne black they are referring to her real world race, which is what I am talking about, not her character. She is black. If someone calls her black no one argues. If someone calls Alistair white, no one argues. It should be the same for calling any other poc a poc.
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Post by phoray on Aug 8, 2019 18:32:24 GMT
if anything viv fits that mold more. In what way? I only used Sera specifically as the other poster mentioned Sera. And I was a bit miffed that anyone would think Sera was self hating, as if it was an active decision that she stuck with. She's young and angry and is in a society that is telling her to be ashamed. Because she's young, it gets to her a little bit but it makes her angry and she wants to prove the world wrong. I relate to that and I didn't have to be a POC even though I guess I technically am. She's a great character.
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