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Post by themikefest on Sept 19, 2019 13:53:30 GMT
So no one has an explanation as to why Shepard couldn't ask Liara questions about some of the stuff in the dlc. Maybe that can be included if/when Bioware remakes the trilogy.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 13:53:38 GMT
Do you have an explanation as to why Shepard couldn't ask her questions about the armor, dna all over the apartment and why she didn't inform anyone Shepard's body was in the hands of Cerberus? It was one photo not "all over" the apartment. As to Sheps body that's easy. She was in effect dealing with terrorists so that's why. She also may have feared that if she informed the Alliance about Shepard's body they would try to recover it from Cerberus; and in so doing, thwart Cerberus' efforts to revive Shepard.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 13:58:06 GMT
So no one has an explanation as to why Shepard couldn't ask Liara questions about some of the stuff in the dlc. Maybe that can be included if/when Bioware remakes the trilogy. When Shpeard discovers the armor, Liara isn't there to ask. Again, the answer regarding the DNA encoded photo is already evident... She knew Shepard was coming and wanted to leave a specific message that no one else would be able to get their hands on. Shepard is the dumb one that, too trustingly, reveals everything to Tela Vasir despite only having her say so that she's a spectre. Why doesn't Shepard question Tela Vasir more thoroughly before revealing that he's found a data disk in Liara's apartment? Is Shepard so dense that by then he/she hasn't figured out that Liara wanted only Shepard to know where she had gone? That simple question would have prevented Vasir from blowing up Baria Frontier's offices and saved several lives.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 19, 2019 14:00:16 GMT
Ok. Still not an explanation. Shepard could have asked t'soni about the armor after Vasir died as well as other questions.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 14:03:30 GMT
Ok. Still not an explanation. Shepard could have asked t'soni about the armor after Vasir died as well as other questions. How do you know Shepard didn't ask those questions off camera and was simply satisfied with her answers? There is an obvious scene break in Shepard's quarters if you invite Liara back to the cabin, so you're not privvy to every single word that passed between them on that occasion.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 19, 2019 14:06:28 GMT
If that's what you want to believe, go ahead. I would find that odd if that happened and not during the dlc for the player to have the choice to ask questions. And depending on the answer, have any follow up questions.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 14:37:07 GMT
If that's what you want to believe, go ahead. I would find that odd if that happened and not during the dlc for the player to have the choice to ask questions. And depending on the answer, have any follow up questions. Finding it odd is one level, but TBH, you keep taking it to whole 'nother level of being upset about anything to do with Liara. Why? My guess is it's probably because Mac wrote Liara and some people on this forum have loved to hate on Mac ever since L'Etoile left Bioware. (It's just my opinion, of course.)
In ME1, I can shoot Finch in Chora's den and Jax, Chorban, and the Krogan blackmailer the markets. Why can't I shoot Conrad there as well? He's obviously unstable and is looking to become a spectre, which would damage humanities relationship with the Council. So I'll ask you - Why the difference in how you view some choices we don't have as being OK with you and others so adamantly upsetting to you?
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 19, 2019 15:08:17 GMT
Finding it odd is one level, but TBH, you keep taking it to whole 'nother level of being upset about anything to do with Liara. Why? My guess is it's probably because Mac wrote Liara and some people on this forum have loved to hate on Mac ever since L'Etoile left Bioware. (It's just my opinion, of course.) It goes back to player agency. I think, well, I can't force it on anyone, that to some people Mac's style of writing leaves a lot more things to question than others. We think differently. And the answer to that is that, probably, nobody in the writer's room, at the time, thought anything of it. Like, in ME3, when Bioware admitted they forgot about Thane being an LI. Everyone involved in the creative process had a collective brainfart and just ... it went on unnoticed. And to some people that strikes as particularly egregious, depending on their thought pattern. I can't blame them for it, it's how people's minds work. I didn't notice it either, but yeah, I can see themikefest's point and I can understand his frustration. Similarly to your point about Conrad Verner. Yeah, possibly, but I can see a point being made about the guy, since he does not have a criminal record or is related to any criminal related activities and is also in a very populated spot. I mean, you are a spectre and you can, technically, say whatever, but it doesn't make a good case for Shepard. Especially if you do it in the Citadel, before the Spectre inauguration ceremony. I don't remember if you can even meet Conrad back then.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 15:21:59 GMT
Finding it odd is one level, but TBH, you keep taking it to whole 'nother level of being upset about anything to do with Liara. Why? My guess is it's probably because Mac wrote Liara and some people on this forum have loved to hate on Mac ever since L'Etoile left Bioware. (It's just my opinion, of course.) It goes back to player agency. I think, well, I can't force it on anyone, that to some people Mac's style of writing leaves a lot more things to question than others. We think differently. And the answer to that is that, probably, nobody in the writer's room, at the time, thought anything of it. Like, in ME3, when Bioware admitted they forgot about Thane being an LI. Everyone involved in the creative process had a collective brainfart and just ... it went on unnoticed. And to some people that strikes as particularly egregious, depending on their thought pattern. I can't blame them for it, it's how people's minds work. I didn't notice it either, but yeah, I can see themikefest 's point and I can understand his frustration. Similarly to your point about Conrad Verner. Yeah, possibly, but I can see a point being made about the guy, since he does not have a criminal record or is related to any criminal related activities and is also in a very populated spot. I mean, you are a spectre and you can, technically, say whatever, but it doesn't make a good case for Shepard. Especially if you do it in the Citadel, before the Spectre inauguration ceremony. I don't remember if you can even meet Conrad back then. You can meet Conrad once before the ceremony and he'll just ask for an autograph. You can refuse to give him the autograph, and IIRC, he doesn't appear again. On your third visit to the Citadel (i.e. after 2 plot worrlds), he will mention his spectre idea to you. If renegade, you can pull out a gun and wave it in his face, but you can't shoot him. Regardless of whether you go the paragon or renegade route, all you can do is try to convince to go home to his wife. There is no choice to do anything else at that point.
As I said, finding things odd on one level is one thing. I find it odd that Liara and Legion have the same piece of Shepard's armor. Lots of "odd" errors and oversights occur in ALL of these games... everything from spelling errors in the codex to more serious ones. Similarly, Bethesda's known to make very buggy games. IMO, It reflects on more general problems with the process though, not on individual writers or programmers.
Personally, I don't find Mac that horrid a writer. I thought Initiation (written with an award-winning author) was a reasonably good book. I enjoyed it more than Annihilation (written by another award-winning author). I don't think Mac is the best writer on the planet, though... but I think he's good enough to warrant keeping his job. Yet, even since coming onto the old BSN, I've gotten this constant vibe that people want to force him out of his job... the same way they wanted to force Manveer Heir out of his. With Heir, I could understand some of this issues. I'm at a loss to explain why the intensity against Mac... and I've long ago stopped believing that it's really about merely "player agency."
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 19, 2019 16:15:03 GMT
You can meet Conrad once before the ceremony and he'll just ask for an autograph. You can refuse to give him the autograph, and IIRC, he doesn't appear again. On your third visit to the Citadel (i.e. after 2 plot worrlds), he will mention his spectre idea to you. If renegade, you can pull out a gun and wave it in his face, but you can't shoot him. Regardless of whether you go the paragon or renegade route, all you can do is try to convince to go home to his wife. There is no choice to do anything else at that point. Well, as I said, Conrad is not a criminal and he is in a very populated space, at the marketplace in the wards. Killing him ... may not be a viable choice. Not unless you think running from C-Sec and possibly never returning to Citadel space is a viable choice. Kinda like saying no to the Illusive man in the beginning of ME2. That's how I see it. But maybe you're right. Maybe. Maybe that outcome would end in an automatic Game Over screen, so why include it? Personally, I don't find Mac that horrid a writer. He's not horrid, but he's not that good. He's great for character writing, terrible for lore and plot. His comic books are all terrible. I don't hate him, because some of his work involved the creation of some of my favourite characters in gaming, period, but he dropped the ball into expanding these characters that people fell in love with, because he legitimately didn't want to put in the work. He also took complete creative control of the endings and issued a mandate on the outcome that took agency away from the player and only started admitting to it, or realizing it, a few years back, but still, stubbornly so, refuses to acknowledge how that may have damaged his reputation, Mass Effect's legacy and Bioware's brand. And again I'm going to have to go back to Todd Howard and say, if he feels that way, Todd just called him naive. I don't think Mac is the best writer on the planet, though... but I think he's good enough to warrant keeping his job Listen, I am not against Mac having a job, I am not against Mac working at Bioware. I wish he was a better writer than he ultimately is, but I don't want him canceled. Some of the stuff he's done, I legitimately love and would not change it for anything. Yet, even since coming onto the old BSN, I've gotten this constant vibe that people want to force him out of his job... the same way they wanted to force Manveer Heir out of his. With Heir, I could understand some of this issues. Manveer wished for my death. I don't care who you are and what you may have done to me, personally. My people have survived centuries of slavery, but I cannot wish upon an entire people harm in any form for something that happened like 400 years ago. Manveer, for his comments, had to be let go, he was legitimately hurting the company and studio he was working for. He was hang up over something that he had not experienced and had no business wishing for other people to die, when they cannot be held responsible for the very crimes he condemned them for. I'm at a loss to explain why the intensity against Mac... and I've long ago stopped believing that it's really about merely "player agency." I think it's got more to do with how he treated the community in the ME3 ending debacle. Calling your userbase, basically, stupid and that they didn't "get it", when they in fact did, but just didn't like it and refusing to accept it when they told you so. I'm still mad at Mac. I'm still mad at Casey, but I also do understand that nobody sets out to make a game that is shit and with the intent to solely shit on its fanbase.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 19, 2019 16:21:18 GMT
You love to exaggerate things. There was no DNA "all over her apartment." She coded the one picture to Shepard's DNA as an intentional message to him/her. The DNA was probably obtained from the one piece of Shepard's armor she had, which was probably kept back before turning the body over to Cerberus. Your old pal Conrad idolized Shepard so much, he set up a shrine after only meeting him/her briefly 3 times on the Citadel. Yet, you love him and dump all this hate on Liara. Liara, conversely, served as a squad mate in ME1, so she kept a memento as a remembrance of her old Commander. She's no more a wierdo about it than Conrad is about being a "fan" of Shepard. I wouldn't put it past him to have also had a chunk of Shepard's armor hidden away someplace... and probably still had the shirt he was wearing when Shepard allegedly held a gun on him in ME1... unwashed to preserve the DNA that might have transferred. Hmmm. In another thread you called me petty because I pointed out that you get anal about people not liking MEA and the people who want a sequel to ME3. You said that the topic, at the time, was about t'soni. Since this is about t'soni, you bring up Conrad? Aren't you being petty?
There's a big difference from someone taking armor from a dead corpse to display as a trophy versus someone who has a shrine with a photo.
Didn't t'soni also put dna on a second location where Shepard finds the disk? Is there a reason you forgot to mention that?
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Post by themikefest on Sept 19, 2019 17:27:11 GMT
Why doesn't Shepard question Tela Vasir more thoroughly before revealing that he's found a data disk in Liara's apartment? I agree. As I've said a number of times before, my number one pet peeve about Shepard is the lack of asking questions. Maybe when/if Bioware remakes the trilogy, asking questions by the main character will be included. Finding it odd is one level, but TBH, you keep taking it to whole 'nother level of being upset about anything to do with Liara. Why? My guess is it's probably because Mac wrote Liara and some people on this forum have loved to hate on Mac ever since L'Etoile left Bioware. (It's just my opinion, of course.) Your guess is wrong. Before I answer, what are the some choices you're talking about?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 17:36:28 GMT
You can meet Conrad once before the ceremony and he'll just ask for an autograph. You can refuse to give him the autograph, and IIRC, he doesn't appear again. On your third visit to the Citadel (i.e. after 2 plot worrlds), he will mention his spectre idea to you. If renegade, you can pull out a gun and wave it in his face, but you can't shoot him. Regardless of whether you go the paragon or renegade route, all you can do is try to convince to go home to his wife. There is no choice to do anything else at that point. Well, as I said, Conrad is not a criminal and he is in a very populated space, at the marketplace in the wards. Killing him ... may not be a viable choice. Not unless you think running from C-Sec and possibly never returning to Citadel space is a viable choice. Kinda like saying no to the Illusive man in the beginning of ME2. That's how I see it. But maybe you're right. Maybe. Maybe that outcome would end in an automatic Game Over screen, so why include it? Personally, I don't find Mac that horrid a writer. He's not horrid, but he's not that good. He's great for character writing, terrible for lore and plot. His comic books are all terrible. I don't hate him, because some of his work involved the creation of some of my favourite characters in gaming, period, but he dropped the ball into expanding these characters that people fell in love with, because he legitimately didn't want to put in the work. He also took complete creative control of the endings and issued a mandate on the outcome that took agency away from the player and only started admitting to it, or realizing it, a few years back, but still, stubbornly so, refuses to acknowledge how that may have damaged his reputation, Mass Effect's legacy and Bioware's brand. And again I'm going to have to go back to Todd Howard and say, if he feels that way, Todd just called him naive. I don't think Mac is the best writer on the planet, though... but I think he's good enough to warrant keeping his job Listen, I am not against Mac having a job, I am not against Mac working at Bioware. I wish he was a better writer than he ultimately is, but I don't want him canceled. Some of the stuff he's done, I legitimately love and would not change it for anything. Yet, even since coming onto the old BSN, I've gotten this constant vibe that people want to force him out of his job... the same way they wanted to force Manveer Heir out of his Manveer wished for my death. I don't care who you are and what you may have done to me, personally. My people have survived centuries of slavery, but I cannot wish upon an entire people harm in any form for something that happened like 400 years ago. Manveer, for his comments, had to be let go, he was legitimately hurting the company and studio he was working for. He was hang up over something that he had not experienced and had no business wishing for other people to die, when they cannot be held responsible for the very crimes he condemned them for. I'm at a loss to explain why the intensity against Mac... and I've long ago stopped believing that it's really about merely "player agency." I think it's got more to do with how he treated the community in the ME3 ending debacle. Calling your userbase, basically, stupid and that they didn't "get it", when they in fact did, but just didn't like it and refusing to accept it when they told you so. I'm still mad at Mac. I'm still mad at Casey, but I also do understand that nobody sets out to make a game that is shit and with the intent to solely shit on its fanbase. Fair comments. You did pull my Manveer Heir comment out of context though. I said I could understand the complaints against Manveer, but not with Mac. I would have appreciated it had you quote the entire comment instead of truncated out just the first part.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 17:38:27 GMT
You love to exaggerate things. There was no DNA "all over her apartment." She coded the one picture to Shepard's DNA as an intentional message to him/her. The DNA was probably obtained from the one piece of Shepard's armor she had, which was probably kept back before turning the body over to Cerberus. Your old pal Conrad idolized Shepard so much, he set up a shrine after only meeting him/her briefly 3 times on the Citadel. Yet, you love him and dump all this hate on Liara. Liara, conversely, served as a squad mate in ME1, so she kept a memento as a remembrance of her old Commander. She's no more a wierdo about it than Conrad is about being a "fan" of Shepard. I wouldn't put it past him to have also had a chunk of Shepard's armor hidden away someplace... and probably still had the shirt he was wearing when Shepard allegedly held a gun on him in ME1... unwashed to preserve the DNA that might have transferred. Hmmm. In another thread you called me petty because I pointed out that you get anal about people not liking MEA and the people who want a sequel to ME3. You said that the topic, at the time, was about t'soni. Since this is about t'soni, you bring up Conrad? Aren't you being petty?
There's a big difference from someone taking armor from a dead corpse to display as a trophy versus someone who has a shrine with a photo.
Didn't t'soni also put dna on a second location where Shepard finds the disk? Is there a reason you forgot to mention that?
No, I'm not being petty... just pointing out how similar the two characters are and asking you to clarify your reasoning for absolutely hating the one and loving the other... a question you still haven't answered, but rather have deflected. Since you claim your beef is with Shepard not asking questions, why do you continuously bring up Liara, but hardly ever mention questioning Vasir. What is the difference to you. Why do you always pick on Liara and repeat those same beefs with her over and over and over and over again?
For the record, I'll repeat - I like Conrad and I like Liara... and I have absolutely no problem with not having full player agency over the actions of the NPCs in the game. I'm not even all that fussed about not having full player agency over the PC. I fully accept that sometimes the writers of the story (who are the devs, not us fans) want to push the story in a particular direction and need to resume control over the PC to accomplish that. I have always said, I prefer autodialogue rather than the pseudo-choice dialogue that permeates ME1. By this, I am specificially to those times when they interrupted the flow of the game to offer a left and right choice that resulted in Shepard saying exactly the same thing regardless of the choice made.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 19, 2019 17:47:03 GMT
Fair comments. You did pull my Manveer Heir comment out of context though. I said I could understand the complaints against Manveer, but not with Mac I'm not disagreeing with you. Forgive me for not quoting your entire post. And I did agree with you on Mac. I would have appreciated it had you quote the entire comment instead of truncated out just the first part. Fair enough. And yeah, I understand the why. I'll go back and fix it in a minute.
EDIT: It should be okay now, quoted in full. Let me know if its alright.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 19, 2019 19:16:37 GMT
Hmmm. In another thread you called me petty because I pointed out that you get anal about people not liking MEA and the people who want a sequel to ME3. You said that the topic, at the time, was about t'soni. Since this is about t'soni, you bring up Conrad? Aren't you being petty?
There's a big difference from someone taking armor from a dead corpse to display as a trophy versus someone who has a shrine with a photo.
Didn't t'soni also put dna on a second location where Shepard finds the disk? Is there a reason you forgot to mention that?
No, I'm not being petty... just pointing out how similar the two characters are and asking you to clarify your reasoning for absolutely hating the one and loving the other... a question you still haven't answered, but rather have deflected. Since you claim your beef is with Shepard not asking questions, why do you continuously bring up Liara, but hardly ever mention questioning Vasir. What is the difference to you. Why do you always pick on Liara and repeat those same beefs with her over and over and over and over again?
For the record, I'll repeat - I like Conrad and I like Liara... and I have absolutely no problem with not having full player agency over the actions of the NPCs in the game. I'm not even all that fussed about not having full player agency over the PC. I fully accept that sometimes the writers of the story (who are the devs, not us fans) want to push the story in a particular direction and need to resume control over the PC to accomplish that. I have always said, I prefer autodialogue rather than the pseudo-choice dialogue that permeates ME1. By this, I am specificially to those times when they interrupted the flow of the game to offer a left and right choice that resulted in Shepard saying exactly the same thing regardless of the choice made.
They killed Leliana in DAO (defile the ashes with her in your party and you kill her the animation has the Warden cutting her head off most of the time), yet she appears in most of the story based DLC of DA2 and a full character again in DAI with some retcon that a piece of the ashes brought her back or she's a lyrim ghost or something, because the story demands needed Leliana to return and player agency be damned. There was (and probably still are) fans that are still upset about that, but that is their problem not mine.
As too Shepard's armor Legion had the front part and Liara had the back part (or at that is what looked like to me).
Liara also by the time we meet her in ME2 and in LotSB had some money and could afford to send a team of mercs to get the rest of Shepard's armor because she liked or loved Shepard (if you romanced her) and wanted a reminder of her first true love.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 19:33:33 GMT
No, I'm not being petty... just pointing out how similar the two characters are and asking you to clarify your reasoning for absolutely hating the one and loving the other... a question you still haven't answered, but rather have deflected. Since you claim your beef is with Shepard not asking questions, why do you continuously bring up Liara, but hardly ever mention questioning Vasir. What is the difference to you. Why do you always pick on Liara and repeat those same beefs with her over and over and over and over again?
For the record, I'll repeat - I like Conrad and I like Liara... and I have absolutely no problem with not having full player agency over the actions of the NPCs in the game. I'm not even all that fussed about not having full player agency over the PC. I fully accept that sometimes the writers of the story (who are the devs, not us fans) want to push the story in a particular direction and need to resume control over the PC to accomplish that. I have always said, I prefer autodialogue rather than the pseudo-choice dialogue that permeates ME1. By this, I am specificially to those times when they interrupted the flow of the game to offer a left and right choice that resulted in Shepard saying exactly the same thing regardless of the choice made.
They killed Leliana in DAO (defile the ashes with her in your party and you kill her the animation has the Warden cutting her head off most of the time), yet she appears in most of the story based DLC of DA2 and a full character again in DAI with some retcon that a piece of the ashes brought her back or she's a lyrim ghost or something, because the story demands needed Leliana to return and player agency be damned. There was (and probably still are) fans that are still upset about that, but that is their problem not mine.
As too Shepard's armor Legion had the front part and Liara had the back part (or at that is what looked like to me).
Liara also by the time we meet her in ME2 and in LotSB had some money and could afford to send a team of mercs to get the rest of Shepard's armor because she liked or loved Shepard (if you romanced her) and wanted a reminder of her first true love.
You've dashed my intrigue about Shep's armor. I liked speculating that because I sent Legion to Cerberus, Liara got her hands on Shepard's armor from them. I think it might have made an interesting choice as a singular canon going forward from ME2, skipping ME3 altogether.
Honestly, I've never been too fussed at all by Liara. I don't romance her very often because I generally am humancentric about my romances. When I don't romance her, I tend to think of her as Shepard's nosy older sister. How or why she acquired Shepard's armor is of no nevermind to me.
The only singular canon to ME3 I actually have serious objections about is Destroy. Regardless of whether they choose a Shepard lives or Shepard dies version, if they choose to destroy a billion years of the last traces of all history of past galactic civilizations along with the geth who are now allies, I won't buy another ME game (and you simply won't see me here again). That's a personal choice and has nothing to do with whatever other people want around here. I think they could make a great story going forward from Control, which is my personal favorite ending. If they do pick a canon for ME3, I hope they pick an ending that doesn't currently exist. Previous discussions I had here about life after death are founded in my own faith... which is my personal prerogative. I'm not prepared to discuss them here ever again.
From what I've seen from Biwoare though, choosing a singular canon would not be their preference, but one imposed on them by certain fans... who, IMO, probably won't come back as honest fans anyways because they're likely to find something else wrong with whatever Bioware does at this point. I also feel that choosing a singular canon is not necessary to enable the story to go forward; and finally, my strong preference is to continue on with the Andromeda story for no other reason that I liked the story and I want to see where it goes from where it left off. Nuff said.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 19, 2019 19:53:51 GMT
The same can be said about you still b*tching about Cerberus
Well, they contribute nothing meaningful to the plot as set up in ME1 (stop the Reapers) and poke holes into it instead, all the while undermining roleplay They also have no redeemable qualities whatsoever. Their motivations switches around between "We are racist! Why? Because we are!", "Let's kill as many of our own scientists as possible!" and "Let's kill cvilians, TROLOLOL!". They can pull anything out of their ass as the plot demands and have a bad case of Mary Sue/"The writer favours us". In contrast to that, Liara's just a single individual with obsession issues, and very few ways to ass-pull fleets. And for the record, I don't like her ME2/ME3 characterisation too much. Yet another sawggering hardass. Not very interesting, ME2 has enough of that already. I prefer her socially inept, nerdy ME version.
Anyway, I just cannot imagine what people might genuinely like about Cerberus.
In ME2 Cerberus can INTERPRETED as a right-wing, libertarian, and/or conservative group, lead by a rich guy running things and not really caring how many people, (humans or aliens), get hurt in the process to get things done in their own way without of the rules, regulations, bureaucracy, and most importantly the morality that society in general and governing bodies like the Alliance and the Council would put on them.
Now if that is BioWare's intention of what Cerberus is, you've to go ask them, but it's an INTERPENETRATION.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Sept 19, 2019 20:10:10 GMT
They killed Leliana in DAO (defile the ashes with her in your party and you kill her the animation has the Warden cutting her head off most of the time), yet she appears in most of the story based DLC of DA2 and a full character again in DAI with some retcon that a piece of the ashes brought her back or she's a lyrim ghost or something, because the story demands needed Leliana to return and player agency be damned. There was (and probably still are) fans that are still upset about that, but that is their problem not mine.
As too Shepard's armor Legion had the front part and Liara had the back part (or at that is what looked like to me).
Liara also by the time we meet her in ME2 and in LotSB had some money and could afford to send a team of mercs to get the rest of Shepard's armor because she liked or loved Shepard (if you romanced her) and wanted a reminder of her first true love.
You've dashed my intrigue about Shep's armor. I liked speculating that because I sent Legion to Cerberus, Liara got her hands on Shepard's armor from them. I think it might have made an interesting choice as a singular canon going forward from ME2, skipping ME3 altogether.
Honestly, I've never been too fussed at all by Liara. I don't romance her very often because I generally am humancentric about my romances. When I don't romance her, I tend to think of her as Shepard's nosy older sister. How or why she acquired Shepard's armor is of no nevermind to me.
The only singular canon to ME3 I actually have serious objections about is Destroy. Regardless of whether they choose a Shepard lives or Shepard dies version, if they choose to destroy a billion years of the last traces of all history of past galactic civilizations along with the geth who are now allies, I won't buy another ME game (and you simply won't see me here again). That's a personal choice and has nothing to do with whatever other people want around here. I think they could make a great story going forward from Control, which is my personal favorite ending. If they do pick a canon for ME3, I hope they pick an ending that doesn't currently exist. Previous discussions I had here about life after death are founded in my own faith... which is my personal prerogative. I'm not prepared to discuss them here ever again.
From what I've seen from Biwoare though, choosing a singular canon would not be their preference, but one imposed on them by certain fans... who, IMO, probably won't come back as honest fans anyways because they're likely to find something else wrong with whatever Bioware does at this point. I also feel that choosing a singular canon is not necessary to enable the story to go forward; and finally, my strong preference is to continue on with the Andromeda story for no other reason that I liked the story and I want to see where it goes from where it left off. Nuff said.
Honestly I think some of the geth survived the Destroy ending, I also think that they're the benefactor in MEA since everything in the MEA: Discovery comic, Suvi's comments about them having the FTL scans of the Andromeda galaxy and too all the scenes with the benefactor (with the benefactor jumping between different species) and Alec Ryder seem like they're the ones that help fund the Initiative. I don't think they're the ones that killed Garson however. I think that was Cerberus agents. Since there are former Cerberus agents and scientists that Pathfinder Ryder bumps into and so it wouldn't surprise me that Cerberus agents are hiding on the Nexus and the various arks or they have own personal ark.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 20:26:10 GMT
You've dashed my intrigue about Shep's armor. I liked speculating that because I sent Legion to Cerberus, Liara got her hands on Shepard's armor from them. I think it might have made an interesting choice as a singular canon going forward from ME2, skipping ME3 altogether.
Honestly, I've never been too fussed at all by Liara. I don't romance her very often because I generally am humancentric about my romances. When I don't romance her, I tend to think of her as Shepard's nosy older sister. How or why she acquired Shepard's armor is of no nevermind to me.
The only singular canon to ME3 I actually have serious objections about is Destroy. Regardless of whether they choose a Shepard lives or Shepard dies version, if they choose to destroy a billion years of the last traces of all history of past galactic civilizations along with the geth who are now allies, I won't buy another ME game (and you simply won't see me here again). That's a personal choice and has nothing to do with whatever other people want around here. I think they could make a great story going forward from Control, which is my personal favorite ending. If they do pick a canon for ME3, I hope they pick an ending that doesn't currently exist. Previous discussions I had here about life after death are founded in my own faith... which is my personal prerogative. I'm not prepared to discuss them here ever again.
From what I've seen from Biwoare though, choosing a singular canon would not be their preference, but one imposed on them by certain fans... who, IMO, probably won't come back as honest fans anyways because they're likely to find something else wrong with whatever Bioware does at this point. I also feel that choosing a singular canon is not necessary to enable the story to go forward; and finally, my strong preference is to continue on with the Andromeda story for no other reason that I liked the story and I want to see where it goes from where it left off. Nuff said.
Honestly I think some of the geth survived the Destroy ending, I also think that they're the benefactor in MEA since everything in the MEA: Discovery comic, Suvi's comments about them having the FTL scans of the Andromeda galaxy and too all the scenes with the benefactor (with the benefactor jumping between different species) and Alec Ryder seem like they're the ones that help fund the Initiative. I don't think they're the ones that killed Garson however. I think that was Cerberus agents. Since there are former Cerberus agents and scientists that Pathfinder Ryder bumps into and so it wouldn't surprise me that Cerberus agents are hiding on the Nexus and the various arks or they have own personal ark.
Intrigue restored. Still won't played another ME game if destroy is Shepard's only possible choice to have made though (call me stubborn)... and also a former archivist).
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 19, 2019 20:51:30 GMT
You've dashed my intrigue about Shep's armor. I liked speculating that because I sent Legion to Cerberus, Liara got her hands on Shepard's armor from them. I think it might have made an interesting choice as a singular canon going forward from ME2, skipping ME3 altogether.
Honestly, I've never been too fussed at all by Liara. I don't romance her very often because I generally am humancentric about my romances. When I don't romance her, I tend to think of her as Shepard's nosy older sister. How or why she acquired Shepard's armor is of no nevermind to me.
The only singular canon to ME3 I actually have serious objections about is Destroy. Regardless of whether they choose a Shepard lives or Shepard dies version, if they choose to destroy a billion years of the last traces of all history of past galactic civilizations along with the geth who are now allies, I won't buy another ME game (and you simply won't see me here again). That's a personal choice and has nothing to do with whatever other people want around here. I think they could make a great story going forward from Control, which is my personal favorite ending. If they do pick a canon for ME3, I hope they pick an ending that doesn't currently exist. Previous discussions I had here about life after death are founded in my own faith... which is my personal prerogative. I'm not prepared to discuss them here ever again.
From what I've seen from Biwoare though, choosing a singular canon would not be their preference, but one imposed on them by certain fans... who, IMO, probably won't come back as honest fans anyways because they're likely to find something else wrong with whatever Bioware does at this point. I also feel that choosing a singular canon is not necessary to enable the story to go forward; and finally, my strong preference is to continue on with the Andromeda story for no other reason that I liked the story and I want to see where it goes from where it left off. Nuff said.
Honestly I think some of the geth survived the Destroy ending, I also think that they're the benefactor in MEA since everything in the MEA: Discovery comic, Suvi's comments about them having the FTL scans of the Andromeda galaxy and too all the scenes with the benefactor (with the benefactor jumping between different species) and Alec Ryder seem like they're the ones that help fund the Initiative. I don't think they're the ones that killed Garson however. I think that was Cerberus agents. Since there are former Cerberus agents and scientists that Pathfinder Ryder bumps into and so it wouldn't surprise me that Cerberus agents are hiding on the Nexus and the various arks or they have own personal ark.
Eh, I have to disagree. If they Geth show up in Andromeda, and I hope they do, if anything I imagine they’d have just built their own Ark. They are more advanced than us and they don’t need to worry about things organically do. As for the Benefactor, I think/hope it’s a group of people acting under the alias.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 19, 2019 23:06:21 GMT
I did not got LotSB for years, just acquired it recently, years after ME2 and that whole discussion made me play it earlier than I planned, so I took an old post-suicide mission save with an imported Liara romance. Anyway, thanks for elaborating. I found her annoying in ME1. And for me, it didn't make sense for her to be a squadmate. For what reason exactly? Lack of military background or abilities? There are quite a few others that don't make sense either in case of not being military - essentially anyone but the Alliance soldiery (Ashley, Kaidan, Jacob, Vega), Garrus and Zaeed due to their police/mercenary experience and, last but not least, Commander Javik , would not make sense. I found it extremely off-putting that Shepard, on arriving at Port Hanshan, can utter a line that goes like "Well, you are not military Liara, but I'll trust you." I don't quite get the point of this bit. Is anything civilian automatically untrustworthy to professional soldiers? And don't even get me started on how well Jack fits onto a Cerberus ship... That would have been interesting. Think possible indoctrinated party member issues. I also agree with the notion to grab her, bring her to the Citadel and have her meld with either Tevos or some expendable asari council servant in case someone deems melding with Tevos directly too dangerous. This is more of general issue with Bioware squadmates at times, I guess. If they are recruited and survive, they are always regarded as "friends". Conversely I had those issues with Miranda in ME3. Just doing her loyalty mission made her BFF with my Shepard apparently, regardless of what my Shepard thought. Dragon Age also has this at times *cough* Isabela's shenanigans *cough*, but due to the approval system, it has at least a bit more nuance. Everyone in ME2 (except Shep) has read the script, so they know what would happen, including Liara TIM is obviously the most blatant case, but others did as well. For her "mental issues", I've got two ideas. First, she was abducted and replaced and given the game's overall theme, there is 99,73%-ish chance that is was Cerberus. My second guess is a something called "inconsistent writing" or "retcon". As for the DNA, well what about ass-pulling a clone? Brooks did it as well. :rofl: Also, why does everyone assume that my Shepard was wearing that shitty Aldrin Onyx armor for ME? On Eden Prime, there is a box that always seems to have a HK light Scorpion I that is miles better, so the Onyx always leaves Eden Prime as Omni-Gel. Furthermore, does anyone not end the game using either Colossus or Predator L/M/H if looks do not call for something else? I was probably too irritated by the gameplay mechanics to notice that, playing it for the first time and stuff. Though I wondered why Garrus (or any sniper party member) did not try to just "mantis" Vasir's car out of the sky. Switching sides would have been a great plot point. Turn over to the yagh for resources, betray the space nazi mary sues and blow TIMs head off personally... ah, pipe dreams. Then turning on the yagh and take the resources for myself. I do agree with the notions that certain scenes could have been done with other characters. I had the same issues in ME2 with Miranda constantly jumping into the limelight and blathering something. Especially hilarious after Jack's recruitment. Miranda rambles about orders, than claims to be my Shepards second-in-command or something. (No, thanks, I've got a trustworthy turian for that. Vakarian, show her the airlock.) And finally, she ends up provoking Jack, i.e. too dumb to live. The time capsule does make sense though, but the scene should be adjusted to reflect Shepard's prior dispostion towards her. So if you did not interact with her much, she just says that a copy of Vigil would be a good idea in case this cycle does not make it, has Shepard state his/her personality and then leaves to distribute the boxes. My Shepard was always kind of jealous once she went "Must. Kill. Shadow Broker. Rawwwr!" in the base game instead of going out to dig some prothean lore that could help fighting the Reapers. Is that a sign of disapproval for Shepard'S mindless bug hunt? The boss fight basically pulls an Episode III Count Dooku and traps Obi-Wan (the other party member) under rubble (?) so it is just Shepard and Liara. For Ep. III it at least makes sense, as Palpatine ordered Dooku to take Obi out of the picture. Besides, isn't it bit of a stretch if one brings Grunt like I did? I AM KROGAN! can basically survive anything on low difficulties. I don't know why the whole dog tag thing was included at all. It really pushed me out of the scene. I did not even anticipate that by the year of 2185, anyone would still use dog tags. I guess it is more like fanservice content or a loyalty mission for a character one cannot keep in the party. My personal gripe is that it does not really do much to explain her character rewrite/development and just opens up a few more holes. From a strictly romance standpoint, it also feels a bit hasty.
I'm not sure what the people responsible wanted me to do with ME2 at all, honestly. Cerberus? Yes, they want me to be a tool of bunch of space nazis. But why putting focus on Liara then? She's not human. Miranda would be ok, giving her cheerleading and all, but Liara's is a frickin' asari... The "Don't ask questions, just shoot the guys" issue permeates the whole story of ME2/3 though. I usually don't have Wreav, but it is still dialogue railroading. I also find it rather odd that lame/stupid jokes are allowed about anyone, except asari and humans, apparently.
Now, that surprises me a bit. That reasoning appears a tad bit circular to me. Without some writer's need to force Cerberus into the story by any means necessary (even though there was no reason to do so), there would not have been any reason to kill Shepard in the first place. Is there any good reason besides forcing building the Cerberus connection to have Shepard killed at all? I cannot see one. Also, I do not need to thank anybody for reviving me if I did not ask for it – especially if I 'm intended as a puppet for their shenanigans. TIMs clumsy attempts at guilt tripping never worked on me. He does not do anything particularly convincing – instead the writers just constantly railroad Shepard into either agreeing or disagreeing (ME3) with him as they see fit.
Judging just by ME's protrayal of Cerberus, they were always stupid evil, with varying degrees of stupid and ever present evil. We are just not allowed to point it out or ask questions in ME2/ME3. I actually suspect that our peeves about the games are pretty similar in principle– we were not allowed to ask questions or discuss certain things „because the writers say so“ and apparently do not want us to roleplay our Shepards, but theirs. That is a another thing running through ME2/ME3. One needs an awful lot of headcanon to explain things, as the games does not bother. And in headcanon, one can come up with anything. There are really people out there who think Cerberus falls into "well-intented Extremist" territory. I honestly cannot see why. Given TIM does not care two shits about lives, his "them bugs killin' humanz!!1" excuse for railroading Shepard is just a blatantly ineffective front for his real goal: Getting his hands on the Collector base - given how intensely upset he gets if you don't want him to have it. Cerberus' motivations - whatever they are - could have been an interesting plot point in the MET if we were actually allowed to properly inquire about and discuss them. But nooo... shut up and shoot the bugs. Roleplay and player character motivation building is for noobs.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 19, 2019 23:39:54 GMT
Just because Liara is an alien, it doesnt' mean that T.I.M wouldn't use her help to take down an Rival of his. Keep in mind that T.I.M. is not stupidly irrational about aliens and is willing to side with aliens to further his goals. Calling Kai Leng and Maya Brooks a racist is normal. For both of them are very racist.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 0:05:37 GMT
I did not got LotSB for years, just acquired it recently, years after ME2 and that whole discussion made me play it earlier than I planned, so I took an old post-suicide mission save with an imported Liara romance. Anyway, thanks for elaborating. I found her annoying in ME1. And for me, it didn't make sense for her to be a squadmate. For what reason exactly? Lack of military background or abilities? There are quite a few others that don't make sense either in case of not being military - essentially anyone but the Alliance soldiery (Ashley, Kaidan, Jacob, Vega), Garrus and Zaeed due to their police/mercenary experience and, last but not least, Commander Javik , would not make sense. I found it extremely off-putting that Shepard, on arriving at Port Hanshan, can utter a line that goes like "Well, you are not military Liara, but I'll trust you." I don't quite get the point of this bit. Is anything civilian automatically untrustworthy to professional soldiers? And don't even get me started on how well Jack fits onto a Cerberus ship... That would have been interesting. Think possible indoctrinated party member issues. I also agree with the notion to grab her, bring her to the Citadel and have her meld with either Tevos or some expendable asari council servant in case someone deems melding with Tevos directly too dangerous. This is more of general issue with Bioware squadmates at times, I guess. If they are recruited and survive, they are always regarded as "friends". Conversely I had those issues with Miranda in ME3. Just doing her loyalty mission made her BFF with my Shepard apparently, regardless of what my Shepard thought. Dragon Age also has this at times *cough* Isabela's shenanigans *cough*, but due to the approval system, it has at least a bit more nuance. Everyone in ME2 (except Shep) has read the script, so they know what would happen, including Liara TIM is obviously the most blatant case, but others did as well. For her "mental issues", I've got two ideas. First, she was abducted and replaced and given the game's overall theme, there is 99,73%-ish chance that is was Cerberus. My second guess is a something called "inconsistent writing" or "retcon". As for the DNA, well what about ass-pulling a clone? Brooks did it as well. :rofl: Also, why does everyone assume that my Shepard was wearing that shitty Aldrin Onyx armor for ME? On Eden Prime, there is a box that always seems to have a HK light Scorpion I that is miles better, so the Onyx always leaves Eden Prime as Omni-Gel. Furthermore, does anyone not end the game using either Colossus or Predator L/M/H if looks do not call for something else? I was probably too irritated by the gameplay mechanics to notice that, playing it for the first time and stuff. Though I wondered why Garrus (or any sniper party member) did not try to just "mantis" Vasir's car out of the sky. Switching sides would have been a great plot point. Turn over to the yagh for resources, betray the space nazi mary sues and blow TIMs head off personally... ah, pipe dreams. Then turning on the yagh and take the resources for myself. I do agree with the notions that certain scenes could have been done with other characters. I had the same issues in ME2 with Miranda constantly jumping into the limelight and blathering something. Especially hilarious after Jack's recruitment. Miranda rambles about orders, than claims to be my Shepards second-in-command or something. (No, thanks, I've got a trustworthy turian for that. Vakarian, show her the airlock.) And finally, she ends up provoking Jack, i.e. too dumb to live. The time capsule does make sense though, but the scene should be adjusted to reflect Shepard's prior dispostion towards her. So if you did not interact with her much, she just says that a copy of Vigil would be a good idea in case this cycle does not make it, has Shepard state his/her personality and then leaves to distribute the boxes. My Shepard was always kind of jealous once she went "Must. Kill. Shadow Broker. Rawwwr!" in the base game instead of going out to dig some prothean lore that could help fighting the Reapers. Is that a sign of disapproval for Shepard'S mindless bug hunt? The boss fight basically pulls an Episode III Count Dooku and traps Obi-Wan (the other party member) under rubble (?) so it is just Shepard and Liara. For Ep. III it at least makes sense, as Palpatine ordered Dooku to take Obi out of the picture. Besides, isn't it bit of a stretch if one brings Grunt like I did? I AM KROGAN! can basically survive anything on low difficulties. I don't know why the whole dog tag thing was included at all. It really pushed me out of the scene. I did not even anticipate that by the year of 2185, anyone would still use dog tags. I guess it is more like fanservice content or a loyalty mission for a character one cannot keep in the party. My personal gripe is that it does not really do much to explain her character rewrite/development and just opens up a few more holes. From a strictly romance standpoint, it also feels a bit hasty.
I'm not sure what the people responsible wanted me to do with ME2 at all, honestly. Cerberus? Yes, they want me to be a tool of bunch of space nazis. But why putting focus on Liara then? She's not human. Miranda would be ok, giving her cheerleading and all, but Liara's is a frickin' asari... The "Don't ask questions, just shoot the guys" issue permeates the whole story of ME2/3 though. I usually don't have Wreav, but it is still dialogue railroading. I also find it rather odd that lame/stupid jokes are allowed about anyone, except asari and humans, apparently. Now, that surprises me a bit. That reasoning appears a tad bit circular to me. Without some writer's need to force Cerberus into the story by any means necessary (even though there was no reason to do so), there would not have been any reason to kill Shepard in the first place. Is there any good reason besides forcing building the Cerberus connection to have Shepard killed at all? I cannot see one. Also, I do not need to thank anybody for reviving me if I did not ask for it – especially if I 'm intended as a puppet for their shenanigans. TIMs clumsy attempts at guilt tripping never worked on me. He does not do anything particularly convincing – instead the writers just constantly railroad Shepard into either agreeing or disagreeing (ME3) with him as they see fit.
Judging just by ME's protrayal of Cerberus, they were always stupid evil, with varying degrees of stupid and ever present evil. We are just not allowed to point it out or ask questions in ME2/ME3. I actually suspect that our peeves about the games are pretty similar in principle– we were not allowed to ask questions or discuss certain things „because the writers say so“ and apparently do not want us to roleplay our Shepards, but theirs. That is a another thing running through ME2/ME3. One needs an awful lot of headcanon to explain things, as the games does not bother. And in headcanon, one can come up with anything. There are really people out there who think Cerberus falls into "well-intented Extremist" territory. I honestly cannot see why. Given TIM does not care two shits about lives, his "them bugs killin' humanz!!1" excuse for railroading Shepard is just a blatantly ineffective front for his real goal: Getting his hands on the Collector base - given how intensely upset he gets if you don't want him to have it. Cerberus' motivations - whatever they are - could have been an interesting plot point in the MET if we were actually allowed to properly inquire about and discuss them. But nooo... shut up and shoot the bugs. Roleplay and player character motivation building is for noobs. I see no reason why Shepard would instantly invite Shiala to become a squadmate if there is any chance of her suffering effects from 1) being aboard Sovereign for so long and 2) being melded with the Thorian for so long. I'd pick any number of the other commandos we fought on Noveria to add to the squad before picking Shiala. Even leaving at the colony (which is the paragon choice) is risky, IMO. Conversely,I do see a reason why Shepard would bring Liara onboard the ship given her Prothean expertise and the fact that she needs rescuing in that moment from the geth. Using her as a squad mate is purely the players choice in ME1. There is no requirement to do any of the missions with her on the squad, not even the mission on Noveria. As a result, not having an option to throw off the ship just isn't that important to me. You can even rescue her last, so that the only time you need to talk to her at all is to find out about Ilos. Whining incessantly about her being a squadmate, therefore, falls on deaf ears with me.
ETA: ... and it's not creepy at all, I suppose, how Shiala lovingly strokes Shepard's cheek and talks about "other circumstances" in ME2. Why can't Shepard object to that overture?... and why doesn't it warrant the same level of "player agency" complaints that Liara gets? Furthermore... where are the fan complaints about Gianna kissing Shepard and why can't Shepard react negatively to that kiss?
Why bring Shiala to meld with Tevos? If Tevos were at all interested in sorting through the visions from the beacons, she could meld with Shepard... but she's just not interested in finding out "the truth."
Liara can feel like Shepard is a friend without Shepard necessarily reciprocating that feeling. So, Liara saying she didn't want to let a friend die is completely fine since the player has no agency over how an NPC feels about the PC. Sure, they could have inserted a dialogue from Shepard saying "I don't think of you as a friend;" but really, what would that do to advance the story any differently? IMO, it's petty.
Whoever was vetting the script should have pulled Wreav's comment entirely and not given any need for Shepard to respond... That would be a much better solution than the proposed adding an A-Hole line to Shepard's dialogue options.
Since themikefest considers ME4 to be the next ME game and not ME:A, I wonder how he estimates Liara's "content" in that game in order to say he would "reduce" it but keep her in the game. For all we know, she's not in that game at all (even though I disagree with calling it ME4... it's ME5.) The amount of content Liara recieved in ME:A was exceedingly small, but that hasn't stopped him complaining about it.
I also see no reason to have killed off Shepard at the start of ME2. As I've posted elsewhere, a better intro would have been to have the Alliance assign Shepard to infiltrate Cerberus to find out what they were up to. Regardless, I think anyone who saves another person's life or contributes to their life being saved is deserving of that person's thanks. A person who wouldn't thank another person for saving their life is a bigger A-Hole than I would ever want my Shepard to be.
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Glorious Star Lord
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KaiserShep
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 24, 2019 19:40:28 GMT
I also see no reason to have killed off Shepard at the start of ME2. As I've posted elsewhere, a better intro would have been to have the Alliance assign Shepard to infiltrate Cerberus to find out what they were up to. Regardless, I think anyone who saves another person's life or contributes to their life being saved is deserving of that person's thanks. A person who wouldn't thank another person for saving their life is a bigger A-Hole than I would ever want my Shepard to be. I make no secret of my absolute hatred of Project Lazarus. That alone makes my playthroughs of ME2 few and far between. It functions about the same as a coma would have, and does away with the ridiculousness of totally rebuilding a human being after being obliterated and just shrugging it off as just something you can toss shit-tons of money at to solve. Personally I think Cerberus should've been far smaller and more discrete. Their logo brandishing was kind of ridiculous.
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