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Post by ergates on Aug 16, 2019 14:02:25 GMT
As the title says, would you like to have the option to play your new protagonist for a while in a 'normal life setting', where they get the chance to carry out their daily routine, allowing you to get to know them before events conspire to plunge them into adventure.
Or would you prefer more of a Dragon Age 2/Inquisition start in which the new hero is plunged straight into the action as the game is launched, and you are placed into combat or intrigue almost immediately?
Or, to put it another way - Assuming the new hero has a pre-created past, either fixed for all characters (a'la DA:2), or selectable from a range of presets (a'la DA:O/I or Mass Effect) do wish that past to happen offscreen, or would you prefer to interact with it yourself?
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Post by revelationeffect on Aug 16, 2019 22:08:18 GMT
I absolutely hope they implement something like the origin system into DA4, they sort of paid vague lipservice to the idea in DAI so it's not entirely out of the question. DAO still has possibly the most satisfying protagonist experience I've ever seen due to how certain events feel very different across different playthroughs depending on which origin you chose.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 16, 2019 23:09:13 GMT
Honestly it depends on what protagonist they go for.
If the Inquisitor: No Origin story would really be needed.
If an agent of the Inquisition: Then an Origin story would be really difficult to pull off unless they do a section where the protag is back home and then recruited into the Inquisition.
If a Tevinter native: An Origin story would almost be mandatory given the potential differences in the various factions you could be.
Now on the concept in general...I kind of wish they did it in Inquisition. I wanted to visit the Conclave in an almost BioShock Infinite esque sequence where you learn combat and get to know the world...again. Also it helps ground you in your character before things start going to hell...in theory. I say in theory because on the other hand I didn't really get immersed in the RP for the Warden.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 16, 2019 23:24:04 GMT
I don't see why it should have to be one or the other, but if I have to pick one, I'd say straight into the action. The absolute weakest part of every rpg is the time we spend meandering around our podunk hometown, having the basic concepts of the world explained to us as though we were babies. Plus they always, ALWAYS burn it down and kill everyone in it, so why the fuck should I, the player, give a shit?
Who we are and where we come from can always be dealt with later, perhaps in a flashback sequence that we get some control over. Or perhaps, depending on your chosen origin, you get different personal sidequests.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 16, 2019 23:30:09 GMT
If the Inquisitor: No Origin story would really be needed. After 5 years? I beg to differ. BioWare can't count on their entire audience having played the last one. If anything, they should assume we haven't.
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Post by biggydx on Aug 17, 2019 0:08:57 GMT
I absolutely hope they implement something like the origin system into DA4, they sort of paid vague lipservice to the idea in DAI so it's not entirely out of the question. DAO still has possibly the most satisfying protagonist experience I've ever seen due to how certain events feel very different across different playthroughs depending on which origin you chose. I wonder if the success and positive player feedback of Cyberpunks branching origin stories will make BioWare reconsider adding it in last minute. I remember one of the devs saying they stopped doing it because it wasn't as utilized as they liked; most people would only do one playthrough. I disagree with discontinuing it though because (1) it distinguishes your game from your competitors in the RPG genre, and (2) it allows your more dedicated playerbase more opportunities to role play. Most of the people who buy DLC's for a game are people who will likely give the game another playthrough anyway. Plus, even if the argument of "people normally only do one playthrough" were a thing, why add New Game + to the Mass Effect Trilogy?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 17, 2019 0:21:48 GMT
I absolutely hope they implement something like the origin system into DA4, they sort of paid vague lipservice to the idea in DAI so it's not entirely out of the question. DAO still has possibly the most satisfying protagonist experience I've ever seen due to how certain events feel very different across different playthroughs depending on which origin you chose. I wonder if the success and positive player feedback of Cyberpunks branching origin stories will make BioWare reconsider adding it in last minute. I remember one of the devs saying they stopped doing it because it wasn't as utilized as they liked; most people would only do one playthrough. I disagree with discontinuing it though because (1) it distinguishes your game from your competitors in the RPG genre, and (2) it allows your more dedicated playerbase more opportunities to role play. Most of the people who buy DLC's for a game are people who will likely give the game another playthrough anyway. Plus, even if the argument of "people normally only do one playthrough" were a thing, why add New Game + to the Mass Effect Trilogy? Probs cause NG+ mode is a negligible amount of work by comparison, but DA never had NG+.
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Post by biggydx on Aug 17, 2019 0:31:41 GMT
Probs cause NG+ mode is a negligible amount of work by comparison, but DA never had NG+. True. I still think origins stories (even if limited) are good ways of expressing uniqueness in the characters you control.
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Post by melbella on Aug 17, 2019 0:45:05 GMT
I didn't like the beginning of DA2 at all - when I ended up in the middle of combat 5 seconds after selecting a Hawke, I thought something was wrong with the game.
I like games that let me get my bearings first, figure out the controls, mess with the settings, walk around and talk to a few people about what's going on. DAO actually had 2 beginnings like that: each origin story, and then again at Ostagar. The game could very easily have started at the Ostagar camp, but having a chance to see the PC's home and friends/family first was something meaningful that stayed with me throughout the game. I would always wonder if/when I would see them again. Then tying them all together so that whatever PC you play you still come across references of all the other possible choices was brilliant. You don't get those added layers though, if you only play a single origin (or there is only 1 available in the first place).
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 17, 2019 1:07:25 GMT
I also prefer the DA:O approach. I like having some time in the beginning to talk to people, wander around a bit, learn some of the controls, and generally get a lay of the land first.
However, I know that's a pie-in-the-sky dream. The feedback BW got from DA:O was that people were complaining that they weren't getting thrown into the action right away. And that's why they made the change to throw players to the wolves right at the start in the subsequent games.
I remember way-back-when I brought up the pros & cons of this approach with someone at BW, and was told they didn't have any plans to go back to having slower starts. Of course, never say never, but I wouldn't count on it.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 17, 2019 1:16:06 GMT
If the Inquisitor: No Origin story would really be needed. After 5 years? I beg to differ. BioWare can't count on their entire audience having played the last one. If anything, they should assume we haven't. Sure. But that is more an argument against the Inquisitor being the protagonist, period, rather then not giving us an 'Origin Story'. I mean I am hoping that no matter what direction they do they give us at least a sort of a small introductory level, either having to sneak the Inquisitor into Tevinter, an Origin story, or a recruitment mission for your protagonist...but whether or not that will neccessarily be an origin story as involved as DAOs is anyones guess...and likely not given Hrungr's point.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Aug 17, 2019 2:09:44 GMT
As much as I love origin stories (they add imeasurable replay and immersion value) their absence isn't the reason the beginnings of DA2 and DAI suck, they suck because they're in medias res.
If you start DAO at Ostagar then you still have a decent beginning where your introduced to important plot elements/the world, allowed to roleplay your character, be reacted to differently based on your background and most importantly experience discovering the Tower of Ishal has been taken, waking up one of few survivors and discovering loghains betrayel with your character. You expereance the crisis and aftermath with your character and can roleplay through it. And having actually witnessed what came before you can actually appreaciate what's happened.
Dragon age 2's beginning was like starting Origins with Aeducan already banished and fighting through the deeproads to Duncan. Inquisitions was like starting in Flemeth's Hut, complete with not remembering how you survived.
The idea behind making them in medias res was to start the player out with something exciting to draw them in, but for me it just served to immediately make me out of step with my own character and push me right out of the story. Watching my hawke reacting to having to flee from an attack on their village I didn't see/ experiance with them, watching my inquistor react to the deaths of a large amount of people I neither saw nor knew a single name of, was not exciting or fun. Twas disconnecting and immersion breaking, thankfully the rest of the games were great, very much inspite of their starts.
It's not as if you can't start with something exciting without dumping the player in the middle of/towards the end of their definining background event or main story plot hook. The Dalish origin starts you pointing your arrows at intruding humans and then immediately takes you to an ancient ruin filled with monsters. A future protagonists story could easily start with something interesting (a fight, settling a confrontation, a con, whatever) thats just apart of the characters life not the big crisis that will lead them into the main plot and that is spoiled by lack of context.
While I'd absolutly love to see Origins or a start that is different depending on your background in some smaller way - at this point I'm just hoping that the beginning that the background has/all the backgrounds share is an actual Beginning and not another in medias res mess.
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Post by Sundance31us on Aug 17, 2019 2:42:11 GMT
In DAO I liked how the origin stories were revisited later in the narrative...finding out what happened after you left or if you didn't take that path.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 17, 2019 3:08:46 GMT
As much as I love origin stories (they add imeasurable replay and immersion value) their absence isn't the reason the beginnings of DA2 and DAI suck, they suck because they're in medias res. If you start DAO at Ostagar then you still have a decent beginning where your introduced to important plot elements/the world, allowed to roleplay your character, be reacted to differently based on your background and most importantly experience discovering the Tower of Ishal has been taken, waking up one of few survivors and discovering loghains betrayel with your character. You expereance the crisis and aftermath with your character and can roleplay through it. And having actually witnessed what came before you can actually appreaciate what's happened. Dragon age 2's beginning was like starting Origins with Aeducan already banished and fighting through the deeproads to Duncan. Inquisitions was like starting in Flemeth's Hut, complete with not remembering how you survived. The idea behind making them in medias res was to start the player out with something exciting to draw them in, but for me it just served to immediately make me out of step with my own character and push me right out of the story. Watching my hawke reacting to having to flee from an attack on their village I didn't see/ experiance with them, watching my inquistor react to the deaths of a large amount of people I neither saw nor knew a single name of, was not exciting or fun. Twas disconnecting and immersion breaking, thankfully the rest of the games were great, very much inspite of their starts. It's not as if you can't start with something exciting without dumping the player in the middle of/towards the end of their definining background event or main story plot hook. The Dalish origin starts you pointing your arrows at intruding humans and then immediately takes you to an ancient ruin filled with monsters. A future protagonists story could easily start with something interesting (a fight, settling a confrontation, a con, whatever) thats just apart of the characters life not the big crisis that will lead them into the main plot and that is spoiled by lack of context. While I'd absolutly love to see Origins or a start that is different depending on your background in some smaller way - at this point I'm just hoping that the beginning that the background has/all the backgrounds share is an actual Beginning and not another in medias res mess. I mean, by this logic I could argue that any and all stories start in media res unless they show the protagonist being born, and every moment of their life up until the story actually starts. Not only do I disagree that DA2 starts in media res, I would argue it starts too far from the beginning of the plot (such as it is), and that the Lothering sequence should have been cut in its entirity. The only real purpose it ever served was fanservice, the story proper doesn't even really start until Hawke meets Varric, a full year later. As for DAI, it is fundamentally a mystery story. Finding out how you came to be where you are, and how you acquired these abilities is a core plot point. That does not mean it starts in media res, unless you think every story about amnesia starts in media res. You say the rest of the game was great, but giving us all that information upfront would have destroyed it. We would have a completely different end product. And it would ruin the elf origin completely, because a dalish spy can't just wander around an international peace summit, asking Templars stupid questions like "what is a chantry?"
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Post by apollexander on Aug 17, 2019 3:39:06 GMT
The normal-life-thing helps to render the scene and plot, and let the players be familiar with the universe and gameplay. It's classic, like the movie The Lord of the Rings, where the story began at Shire. However, I think it may cost high budget so many games just throw you right on the stage and make everything happen in a fast pace. In recent Bioware games, players are given titles like Inquisitor, Pathfinder and Freelancer, to be motivated and engaged. The pace is a bit too rushed and players can't just identify themselves as expected. I hope they can slower the pace. Foreplay is important in sex.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Aug 17, 2019 4:14:00 GMT
As much as I love origin stories (they add imeasurable replay and immersion value) their absence isn't the reason the beginnings of DA2 and DAI suck, they suck because they're in medias res. If you start DAO at Ostagar then you still have a decent beginning where your introduced to important plot elements/the world, allowed to roleplay your character, be reacted to differently based on your background and most importantly experience discovering the Tower of Ishal has been taken, waking up one of few survivors and discovering loghains betrayel with your character. You expereance the crisis and aftermath with your character and can roleplay through it. And having actually witnessed what came before you can actually appreaciate what's happened. Dragon age 2's beginning was like starting Origins with Aeducan already banished and fighting through the deeproads to Duncan. Inquisitions was like starting in Flemeth's Hut, complete with not remembering how you survived. The idea behind making them in medias res was to start the player out with something exciting to draw them in, but for me it just served to immediately make me out of step with my own character and push me right out of the story. Watching my hawke reacting to having to flee from an attack on their village I didn't see/ experiance with them, watching my inquistor react to the deaths of a large amount of people I neither saw nor knew a single name of, was not exciting or fun. Twas disconnecting and immersion breaking, thankfully the rest of the games were great, very much inspite of their starts. It's not as if you can't start with something exciting without dumping the player in the middle of/towards the end of their definining background event or main story plot hook. The Dalish origin starts you pointing your arrows at intruding humans and then immediately takes you to an ancient ruin filled with monsters. A future protagonists story could easily start with something interesting (a fight, settling a confrontation, a con, whatever) thats just apart of the characters life not the big crisis that will lead them into the main plot and that is spoiled by lack of context. While I'd absolutly love to see Origins or a start that is different depending on your background in some smaller way - at this point I'm just hoping that the beginning that the background has/all the backgrounds share is an actual Beginning and not another in medias res mess. I mean, by this logic I could argue that any and all stories start in media res unless they show the protagonist being born, and every moment of their life up until the story actually starts. Asking that the story not start right in the middle of a plot event of the game but instead shortly before so you can experiance it with your character is hardly the same thing and as asking to be present for every event of their life and I've no idea how you got that from my post. Or if you didn't why you would bring it up. DA2 starts you with your character in the middle of fleeing with their family from the darkspawn attacking their village. Whether you consider it in medias res or not, it wasn't fun for me and I hope not to see it again. Starting in Kirkwall, whether at the gates or by encountereing varric, with a blurb that your family fled ferelden because of the blight, might well have been a better beginning allowing you to start on the same page as your character, depending on the execution. Whenever the story of da4 starts I only hope that it not be right in the middle of that starting plot event. Regardless of whether that plot event is part of their background or the main story. I am aware of the reasons why they chose to start DAI the way they did, in the middle of the crisis of the sky being torn open above thedas, this did not stop the experience from sucking for me. Amnesia does not mean you have to start in the middle of the main plot hook. Geralt had amnesia in from the beginning of The Witcher video game but the story still didn't start in the middle of the Salamandra's attack or straight after it, it started before then and you experianced the event that would jumpstart the games main plot (hunting the salamandra) with Geralt. His amnesia was also total, so you were on the same page with him, as opposed to him being shocked/angry/sad/confused about how a bunch of people he remembers and you've no idea about died. I did not actually make a suggestion about how inquisition should have started, but we could still seen have the conclave without revealing anything about corypheus or the mark (much as we don't see, nor does our character remember, Flemeth rescuing our Warden from the Tower of Ishal after we fade to black), so starting with the sky already torn open was hardly a requirement to maintain the mystery. Since the PC asking questions they should know the answer to but the player might not is a completely seperate problem, one that is solved by finding other ways to convey the information which can be done regardless of whether the story starts in the middle of a major plot event or not, I'm not sure why you mentioned it. I'm glad that you enjoyed the beginnings of DA2 and DAI, but I didn't and this thread is for people to express their preference for how the game starts. I did not expect to change the mind of anyone who did enjoy those beginnings when I shared my opinion, nor is it possible for anyone to retroactively change my not enjoying them.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 17, 2019 4:40:58 GMT
I mean, by this logic I could argue that any and all stories start in media res unless they show the protagonist being born, and every moment of their life up until the story actually starts. Asking that the story not start right in the middle of a plot event of the game but instead shortly before so you can experiance it with your character is hardly the same thing and as asking to be present for every event of their life and I've no idea how you got that from my post. Or if you didn't why you would bring it up. DA2 starts you with your character in the middle of fleeing with their family from the darkspawn attacking their village. Whether you consider it in medias res or not, it wasn't fun for me and I hope not to see it again. Starting in Kirkwall, whether at the gates or by encountereing varric, with a blurb that your family fled ferelden because of the blight, might well have been a better beginning allowing you to start on the same page as your character, depending on the execution. Whenever the story of da4 starts I only hope that it not be right in the middle of that starting plot event. Regardless of whether that plot event is part of their background or the main story. I am aware of the reasons why they chose to start DAI the way they did, in the middle of the crisis of the sky being torn open above thedas, this did not stop the experience from sucking for me. Amnesia does not mean you have to start in the middle of the main plot hook. Geralt had amnesia in from the beginning of The Witcher video game but the story still didn't start in the middle of the Salamandra's attack or straight after it, it started before then and you experianced the event that would jumpstart the games main plot (hunting the salamandra) with Geralt. His amnesia was also total, so you were on the same page with him, as opposed to him being shocked/angry/sad/confused about how a bunch of people he remembers and you've no idea about died. I did not actually make a suggestion about how inquisition should have started, but we could still seen have the conclave without revealing anything about corypheus or the mark (much as we don't see, nor does our character remember, Flemeth rescuing our Warden from the Tower of Ishal after we fade to black), so starting with the sky already torn open was hardly a requirement to maintain the mystery. Since the PC asking questions they should know the answer to but the player might not is a completely seperate problem, one that is solved by finding other ways to convey the information which can be done regardless of whether the story starts in the middle of a major plot event or not, I'm not sure why you mentioned it. I'm glad that you enjoyed the beginnings of DA2 and DAI, but I didn't and this thread is for people to express their preference for how the game starts. I did not expect to change the mind of anyone who did enjoy those beginnings when I shared my opinion, nor is it possible for anyone to retroactively change my not enjoying them. I actually don't like the beginnings of those games, and don't like DAI much in general, I just wanted to talk about in media res, and story structure in general. As I said in my initial post, if I have to choose, I prefer to hit the ground running, and be trusted that I can pick things up on the fly, but there's no reason why a beginning can't both be action packed as well as provide context. That said, I definitely do not want to return to the style of Origins. I have no particular problem with exploring the protagonist's backstory in some other way, but being given a choice of cliched beginnings doesn't make them any less cliche. I'm not going to invest emotionally in a place or characters when it is blatantly obvious that they have no relevance to future events, and I will never return here. I'd rather go Skyrim style and get no backstory at all, than be forced to interact for an hour+ with a bunch of poorly drawn characters who are soon for the axe.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 17, 2019 4:48:36 GMT
And I mean, how much time does anyone need to familiarise themselves with Thedas, REALLY? It's an extremely generic fantasy world.
The only way anybody could struggle to grasp the basic concepts of Dragon Age is if they read LOTR back in 1954 and then promptly fell into a coma until 2009.
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Post by coldsteelblue on Aug 17, 2019 10:10:21 GMT
Personally I like the slower start, build the character learn the game mechanics & then move into the action & while I didn't mind DA:I's start, you got the chance to talk about your background a bit more. An origin story, ending with you on your way to the conclave, then the amnesia mystery would have been a little better in my opinion. This could also allow for some interesting world building, so, say an elf asks, what are templars? In their origin story & their told the Dalish interpretation, Lavellan could then see, with their own eyes, whether their people were right or not, maybe even mention in conversation, things like that. That is just my opinion, but games are limited in budget, wordcount & time, so, all we can do is see what we get & decide for ourselves whether or not we like the intro to the game.
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Post by witchcocktor on Aug 17, 2019 12:50:14 GMT
I liked the slower start of DA:O but I didn't like that we were given such a '' detailed '' origin story. I think things like an origin story should be left for the player themselves to figure out and create.
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Post by arvaarad on Aug 17, 2019 13:11:00 GMT
Plus they always, ALWAYS burn it down and kill everyone in it, so why the fuck should I, the player, give a shit? I have trouble with this too. Why hello, kind but naïve NPC #2, you’re very obviously doomed, so chop chop. It seems selfish, but the only stakes that tend to affect me in hometown chapters are stakes involving the PC. Because unlike every other person, the PC has a chance of surviving them. The point of fear is to try to change a situation... if I already know it’s going to go bad, there’s no tension.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by ergates on Aug 17, 2019 21:45:44 GMT
The feedback BW got from DA:O was that people were complaining that they weren't getting thrown into the action right away. And that's why they made the change to throw players to the wolves right at the start in the subsequent games. What??? I can only assume that the people they asked for feedback were all knuckle-dragging high school frat boys who "jU5t wAnt 2 pwN sTo0Ff lolololol111!!!!" Obviously I prefer the slow start, and ability to live some kind of 'normal life' before being shunted into the action, as it allows my character to become properly bedded in, and allows me to form a proper relationship with them. Half Life was the first game I ever played that did this and I was absolutely blown away by the concept. I can understand how some people felt that the origin stories in DA:O dragged on a bit too long, but actually moaning that there wasn't instant combat action right from the first mouse click is a bit much, especially in a role playing game.
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Trouble-shooting Space Diva
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Post by melbella on Aug 17, 2019 22:32:52 GMT
moaning that there wasn't instant combat action right from the first mouse click is a bit much, especially in a role playing game. They were probably expecting an action game and got ... gasp! .... an rpg instead. Ohhh, the horrorrrr!
Though why people would expect that, and be disappointed when they didn't get it, is weird for a game that's supposedly the "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate." Then again, I just looked at my hard case for DAO and all it says is "from the makers of Mass Effect." So, maybe they were given the wrong impression.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Aug 18, 2019 0:55:15 GMT
Plus they always, ALWAYS burn it down and kill everyone in it, so why the fuck should I, the player, give a shit? I have trouble with this too. Why hello, kind but naïve NPC #2, you’re very obviously doomed, so chop chop. It seems selfish, but the only stakes that tend to affect me in hometown chapters are stakes involving the PC. Because unlike every other person, the PC has a chance of surviving them. The point of fear is to try to change a situation... if I already know it’s going to go bad, there’s no tension. Yes, exactly, after literal decades of every game in the world using this exact setup, it simply no longer has the power it once did. "Haha! We killed your parents/wife/friends! I bet you're SUPER pissed and really motivated to play the whole game to get vengeance!" If anything, crap like that is liable to make me give up on a game even earlier.
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Post by isaidlunch on Aug 18, 2019 1:13:49 GMT
Depends on the story. An action start worked for KoTOR, but it felt out of place in DA2. It's hard to care about sibling B dying or the Hawkes losing their home when you never got a chance to experience it.
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