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Post by ergates on Aug 20, 2019 13:21:41 GMT
Been reading and watching a lot of speculation about DA:4 over the last few days, and the general narrative is that the original (awesome-sounding) concept for DA:4, called 'Joplin' was cancelled because most of the people working on it were shunted onto Anthem, and/or because it didn't conform to EA's requirements for a 'live service game'.
The new version currently being worked on (code-named 'Morrison') will be a 'live service game'. This sounds very ominous, yet I'm unable to find a clear, universal definition of this term.
One extreme possibility seems to be that Dragon Age 4 will be an online-only/multiplayer-only looter shooter-type game, with Farmville-like elements meaning that players must log in and play every say, and/or purchase a steady stream of microtransactions else the progress they have made will start to deteriorate and they'll lose everything they have achieved.
More benign interpretations involve a standard single player narrative-focused game, but one for which additional content is regularly released, allowing you to theoretically play forever if you want to.
Am I right to be deeply worried about this 'live service game' scenario? I'd never even heard the term until recently, and not it seems to be everywhere,
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Aug 20, 2019 14:04:30 GMT
Been reading and watching a lot of speculation about DA:4 over the last few days, and the general narrative is that the original (awesome-sounding) concept for DA:4, called 'Joplin' was cancelled because most of the people working on it were shunted onto Anthem, and/or because it didn't conform to EA's requirements for a 'live service game'. The new version currently being worked on (code-named 'Morrison') will be a 'live service game'. This sounds very ominous, yet I'm unable to find a clear, universal definition of this term. There isn't one. It's essentially a meaningless buzz word. (Buzz words. Whatever.)
At the moment, there is no way of telling what kind of live service elements DA4 might have.
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Post by ergates on Aug 20, 2019 14:18:34 GMT
Probably why I can't seem to find a standard definition of the term then.
One thing's for sure. If DA:4 does turn out to be some kind of multiplayer-only game then Andromeda will be the last Bioware title I ever bought.
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 20, 2019 14:29:03 GMT
Am I right to be deeply worried about this 'live service game' scenario? I'd never even heard the term until recently, and not it seems to be everywhere, Both your extreme examples are correct and do exist, and the question is where within that spectrum DA4 will end up. EA's CEO has stated that social gaming is the future - after all, we all play video games to be with friends or meet new people on the internetz instead of just getting away from the world for a bit, amirite? - so a multiplayer component is pretty much a given, and that is where most of the monetization will be attached to. Whether it will be benign or predatory, honest or scummy we cannot know at this point, but since EA apparently has a tendency to repeat their blunders, a look at their recent efforts might prove enlightening. The big question is how separate the single player experience will be from the multiplayer and the microtransactions attached to it. If we're lucky, it will be completely separate mode with a bunch of cosmetics for sale or some other stuff that is completely optional, and in the worst case we get a "single player" like Anthem (whose code base will be used for DA4) which essentially is a bunch of multiplayer missions with a party of one - you.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Aug 20, 2019 14:50:04 GMT
Probably why I can't seem to find a standard definition of the term then. One thing's for sure. If DA:4 does turn out to be some kind of multiplayer-only game then Andromeda will be the last Bioware title I ever bought. Well, all mmos are live service games. But are all live service games necessarily multiplayer? Not really. Assassins Creed Odyssey is single player, but apparently has live service features. That’s an exception to the rule though. I doubt you can find many other similar cases. EA however, as someone else said, is all in on multiplayer so chances are...
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Post by ergates on Aug 20, 2019 14:56:47 GMT
The big question is how separate the single player experience will be from the multiplayer and the microtransactions attached to it. If we're lucky, it will be completely separate mode with a bunch of cosmetics for sale or some other stuff that is completely optional, and in the worst case we get a "single player" like Anthem (whose code base will be used for DA4) which essentially is a bunch of multiplayer missions with a party of one - you. That's assuming there even is a single player. I'm one of those people who doesn't give a stuff about multiplayer - they can do as they please in the multiplayer portion of the game as long as it's kept separate. What I'm dreading to see is something like Anthem or Fallout 76.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 20, 2019 15:03:36 GMT
It is a very vague term.
A "Live Service Game" can apply to any game which receives additional content after launch. Anything that helps keep players engaged in the hopes of capturing additional revenue after the initial sale.
But for DA4, I would not expect it to turn into a MP-only game. The playerbase for DA is firmly in the SP camp (DA:I proved that), so moving the entire game to MP would be a huge gamble. Just imagine the backlash BW would get.
Yeah, my worry isn't that DA is going to become a MP-only game, it's that its playerbase is so MP-adverse it probably doesn't do the franchise any favours. They want that generous long-tail revenue stream, so that's one avenue they can't count on to produce it for them. There are other avenues ofc, but will they be lucrative? And then in turn what that might mean in terms of budget and resources future DA games will get.
I think the safest model would be something along the lines of how AC:OD does it. It's still not great, but I think it would be more acceptable to the playerbase. Though whether BW has the resources to continue to generate post-release content like Ubisoft can would be another question.
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 20, 2019 15:07:47 GMT
That's assuming there even is a single player. I'm one of those people who doesn't give a stuff about multiplayer - they can do as they please in the multiplayer portion of the game as long as it's kept separate. What I'm dreading to see is something like Anthem or Fallout 76. An understandable thing to worry about. Given EA's dislike for single player games and their efforts to attach a long term revenue tail to their games, we might end up with all kinds of crap, from a short single player campaign that only acts as a kind of tutorial and introduction for the multiplayer mode à la Battlefield 4 to a multiplayer only experience like Anthem / 76. The one argument against that scenario I can come up with is that the Dragon Age fandom is made up of so many people preferring a single player experience that maybe EA will realize that such a move might well sink the franchise.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 20, 2019 19:49:44 GMT
Wait a minute. Does it make sense to call Anthem MP-only? I think at some point in the campaign you do have to activate the MP feature for a mission or two, but that's it.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 20, 2019 20:10:39 GMT
Wait a minute. Does it make sense to call Anthem MP-only? I think at some point in the campaign you do have to activate the MP feature for a mission or two, but that's it. yes. It requires PS plus, so its mp only. You can play it solo... like you could play ME3s mp mode solo.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 20, 2019 20:28:07 GMT
Wait a minute. Does it make sense to call Anthem MP-only? I think at some point in the campaign you do have to activate the MP feature for a mission or two, but that's it. yes. It requires PS plus, so its mp only. You can play it solo... like you could play ME3s mp mode solo. That's right. I was thinking about getting Anthem until I saw that it required being playstation plus member. I am not a member. I'm not paying however much to play a game that I might not like or play for only a short time.
Even MEA required that I be a playstation plus member, if I wanted to play multiplayer. One of the trophy's required me to play multiplayer. Fortunately playstation offered a 48 hour trial. 5 minutes later I got the trophy.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 20, 2019 21:03:46 GMT
Wait a minute. Does it make sense to call Anthem MP-only? I think at some point in the campaign you do have to activate the MP feature for a mission or two, but that's it. yes. It requires PS plus, so its mp only. You can play it solo... like you could play ME3s mp mode solo. What's PS Plus?
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Post by Space Cowboy on Aug 20, 2019 21:26:42 GMT
yes. It requires PS plus, so its mp only. You can play it solo... like you could play ME3s mp mode solo. What's PS Plus? I assume PlayStation plus I take it that’s needed for all online multiplayer games
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Post by midnightwolf on Aug 20, 2019 22:35:59 GMT
It is a very vague term. A "Live Service Game" can apply to any game which receives additional content after launch. Anything that helps keep players engaged in the hopes of capturing additional revenue after the initial sale. But for DA4, I would not expect it to turn into a MP-only game. The playerbase for DA is firmly in the SP camp (DA:I proved that), so moving the entire game to MP would be a huge gamble. Just imagine the backlash BW would get.Yeah, my worry isn't that DA is going to become a MP-only game, it's that its playerbase is so MP-adverse it probably doesn't do the franchise any favours. They want that generous long-tail revenue stream, so that's one avenue they can't count on to produce it for them. There are other avenues ofc, but will they be lucrative? And then in turn what that might mean in terms of budget and resources future DA games will get. I think the safest model would be something along the lines of how AC:OD does it. It's still not great, but I think it would be more acceptable to the playerbase. Though whether BW has the resources to continue to generate post-release content like Ubisoft can would be another question. Also to add to this; DA has always been story and companion driven. I can't see how such things would work in a MP only game.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Aug 20, 2019 23:07:50 GMT
Am I right to be deeply worried about this 'live service game' scenario? I'd never even heard the term until recently, and not it seems to be everywhere, Both your extreme examples are correct and do exist, and the question is where within that spectrum DA4 will end up. EA's CEO has stated that social gaming is the future - after all, we all play video games to be with friends or meet new people on the internetz instead of just getting away from the world for a bit, amirite? - so a multiplayer component is pretty much a given, and that is where most of the monetization will be attached to. Whether it will be benign or predatory, honest or scummy we cannot know at this point, but since EA apparently has a tendency to repeat their blunders, a look at their recent efforts might prove enlightening.The big question is how separate the single player experience will be from the multiplayer and the microtransactions attached to it. If we're lucky, it will be completely separate mode with a bunch of cosmetics for sale or some other stuff that is completely optional, and in the worst case we get a "single player" like Anthem (whose code base will be used for DA4) which essentially is a bunch of multiplayer missions with a party of one - you. Their latest in MTX is Apex Legends for the Iron Crown event, go take a look. AL players are riled by the over $100 paywall put up by the devs and their responses to the unhappy player posts. The CEO of Respawn has stepped in with an apology to calm the waters. Given EA's track record, I expect them to do something sneaky for the SP (if there's one) and call it a "surprise mechanic".
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Post by colfoley on Aug 21, 2019 0:37:39 GMT
Actually, since others have bought up the idea, I have been meaning to post my thoughts on the issue:
Contrary to the fears that are going on I contend that it makes more sense for a SP or MMOish live service game to have a long, deep, main campaign then having a short one as an excuse to sell more stuff. Sure MP games, freemium games, and sports franchises can get away with it...but not an SP focused game dev like Bioware that like telling stories. From the outside looking in this is probably the number one mistake they made with both Anthem and initially TOR. They underestimated the amount of content they'd need at launch to keep players busy until they were ready to roll out the expansions. And especially with Anthems apparent issues that meant they had to delay said expansions. So if anything to be properly live service games need to be longer.
Now of course this doesn't mean bioware won't make the same mistake or EA will force them into a corner to release less content on launch because reasons...but I'm fairly confident we'll get a meaty SP experience that tells a complete story from launch.
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Post by biggydx on Aug 21, 2019 0:49:29 GMT
On one end, you have games like Destiny, Warframe, Fallout 76, and other online-only experiences that persist by giving players regular/seasonal updates, which are supported by microtransactions. On the other end, it's simply providing continual updates to the game through new mechanics, story missions, balance changes, and bug fixes.
One typical (and I do emphasize the term) thread among all these live service games is that they're normally supported through microtransactions. This gets offset by new content being free. Under this criteria, Mass Effect 3, Andromeda, and Dragon Age multiplayer could be considered as live service, as those modes received several content updates, new mechanics, new kits, and various balance changes. Another game that would fall into live service territory is Assassins Creed: Odyssey, as it released several free story missions, with the addition of new content being supported through the games microtransactions store. Players obtain most items from the store, as they were offered on weekly rotation by an NPC players could meet at some point in the game. If you brought this NPC a rare currency (called Orichalcum), you could buy said items. Getting that currency revolved around doing daily and weekly challenges, and you'd have some challenges that would also reward you a cosmetic for your ship, or a new legendary weapon. The controversial aspect of AC:Odysseys were the XP/Gold time-savers which, in a game whose story is level gated, was seen as a ploy to get people to spend $10 (IIRC) on a way to make the game easier to finish.
I think what really bothers most people about the term isn't just poor microtransaction practices from major publishers; most notably - EA. It's also that, for games such as Destiny, Fallout 76, Anthem, The Division, Battlefield V, Battlefront 2, these titles have by in large released in mediocre - if not poor - launch states. It's the gaming community linking the less than stellar launches of these games with the term, and there's now a stigma with any game attached to the title. There's of course other factors involved to; like not wanting always online.
Technically speaking, if BioWare wants DA4 to fit under the live-service banner, then all they'd have to do - in my mind - is do the exact same thing they did with DA:I's multiplayer. Based on Mike Gambles tweet, it sounds like there also planning on releasing story missions (for free) as the game continues on after launch. This would theoretically put the game more on the AC:Odyssey spectrum than an Anthem or Destiny. My guess though, is that they'll also include daily/weekly events which offer up a new currency that can used at a cosmetics store. If you don't want to grind those events for said currency, then you can buy said items and cosmetics with real-world money. Everything's just a "wait and see" game at this point.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 21, 2019 0:52:43 GMT
I assume PlayStation plus I take it that’s needed for all online multiplayer games Something you have to pay for, I take it. Does it do anything else besides MP?
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Post by colfoley on Aug 21, 2019 1:08:32 GMT
I assume PlayStation plus I take it that’s needed for all online multiplayer games Something you have to pay for, I take it. Does it do anything else besides MP? They release a 'free' game you can download every month with it...for no additional cost. It also comes with online cloud storage for saves and special discounts and sales on digital games. Probably a few other goodies but its been a very long time since I had an account.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 21, 2019 1:17:17 GMT
I'm actually surprised they haven't tried something like that on the PC side.
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Post by apollexander on Aug 21, 2019 2:03:36 GMT
I would like to see DA4 following GTA5/RDR2 where the story mode and the multiplayer mode are separated. I would bet Cyberpunk 2077 will also use that model. Why not just focus on the story mode at first and release the multiplayer mode later? Everyone would be happy.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 21, 2019 2:06:58 GMT
I would like to see DA4 following GTA5/RDR2 where the story mode and the multiplayer mode are separated. I would bet Cyberpunk 2077 will also use that model. Why not just focus on the story mode at first and release the multiplayer mode later? Everyone would be happy. there is a good chance that's exactly what they'll do. While I'm curious to see if they can do something like GR Wildlands... I doubt they'll bother or they'll think its worth the risk.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Aug 21, 2019 2:18:53 GMT
I would like to see DA4 following GTA5/RDR2 where the story mode and the multiplayer mode are separated. I would bet Cyberpunk 2077 will also use that model. Why not just focus on the story mode at first and release the multiplayer mode later? Everyone would be happy. For what it is worth, pre-DAI (but after Multiplayer had been announced) a number of people on BSN Prime (myself included) asked if this sort of thing was possible. I think it was Allan who said there was a "non-trivial" cost associated with doing that. Something to do with having to pay Sony and Microsoft twice to host the same amount of content, plus a notion of "missed opportunity", meaning; if it is all bundled, then some SP only people might try it out of curiosity. Whereas if it required a separate download, those same people would be far less likely to try it. As for "live service" definitions - something in or around Assassin's Creed Odyssey would be perfect for me. I was apprehensive about it before I played it - Ubisoft don't have the best reputation on this front - but found it to be about as benign as anyone could have reasonably hoped for. Everything in-game was better (and/or better looking) than the premium content. The Lost Tales were free. *shrug* Other people's mileage may vary, but if DA4's "live service" offerings follow that model...they can consider me a happy customer (assuming the game itself is actually fun, but I'm not too concerned on that score).
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Post by apollexander on Aug 21, 2019 2:54:58 GMT
I would like to see DA4 following GTA5/RDR2 where the story mode and the multiplayer mode are separated. I would bet Cyberpunk 2077 will also use that model. Why not just focus on the story mode at first and release the multiplayer mode later? Everyone would be happy. For what it is worth, pre-DAI (but after Multiplayer had been announced) a number of people on BSN Prime (myself included) asked if this sort of thing was possible. I think it was Allan who said there was a "non-trivial" cost associated with doing that. Something to do with having to pay Sony and Microsoft twice to host the same amount of content, plus a notion of "missed opportunity", meaning; if it is all bundled, then some SP only people might try it out of curiosity. Whereas if it required a separate download, those same people would be far less likely to try it. As for "live service" definitions - something in or around Assassin's Creed Odyssey would be perfect for me. I was apprehensive about it before I played it - Ubisoft don't have the best reputation on this front - but found it to be about as benign as anyone could have reasonably hoped for. Everything in-game was better (and/or better looking) than the premium content. The Lost Tales were free. *shrug* Other people's mileage may vary, but if DA4's "live service" offerings follow that model...they can consider me a happy customer (assuming the game itself is actually fun, but I'm not too concerned on that score). The two modes are bundled in GTA5 and RDR2 if I didn't misunderstand what you said. I can't really see the problem. As for AC Odyssey which is suddenly favored by many, I would say it is a bit too grinding and I hate to see a grinding singleplayer game.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Aug 21, 2019 2:56:23 GMT
I'm actually surprised they haven't tried something like that on the PC side. Origin access? Oh, but yeah you dont need that to actually play a game you've already bought. Yeah that is kind of surprising lol
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