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Post by garrusfan1 on Aug 22, 2019 3:22:40 GMT
Alright here is my idea. Obviously the only way to bring shepard back would be to go with the high ems destroy ending. Now the question is how to do this without making it "cannon" and discounting everyone who didn't choose high ems destroy. Well what if they said that all the choices were legitamate despite the fact the game chooses high ems destroy. To prove it they could have a thing in the "extra's" part of the main menu screen that says what happened in the other endings. It could be some slieds like the EC wit a lot of text explaining what happened after similar to the end of DAO. Or even have it read like a large codex entry. If they really wanted to try and appease those fans they could make it seem like those choices ended better for the rest of the galaxy. It could even effect the different levels of ems with the synthesis and control ending (they did seem different in the EC slides depending on what EMS you had).
So what do you think would this idea at least help smooth over things for those who chose different endings?
Because it's high ems destroy the geth would be dead so you could easily factor in that choice. I don't think every single quarian answered the call to join the fight so there would at least be a few thousand left even if you choose to save the geth and have the quarians die. So you could just have someone say that all the quarians went home to their homeworld and the difference will be it will either be "Construction on new building and infrastructure is procceding and lightning pace and they will soon be on the galactic stage again". or if you chose the geth and let the quarians die then it would be (the few quarians left and went home to do what they could to rebuild their race and are trying to rebuild their homeworld with what little resources and people they have".
The rachni will probably be living isolated away from others or dead so a codex entry will be enough for that or some short dialouge. The only choice that will be hard to factor in is whether the krogan are cured or not. And even then as long as shepard doesn't go to their homeworld it shouldn't be a problem. A few pieces of dialouge will be fine. Remember mordin or whatever the other salarian who replaced him is dead or in hiding. Honestly it wouldn't be that hard.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 22, 2019 4:37:44 GMT
It wouldn't help things in the slightest. Everyone would see that as them making High EMS Destroy canon and that stuff just being empty lip service, which is exactly what it would be. And what of all the other galaxy-shaping choices from ME3? Will those have one chosen while the others are banished to some little comment as well?
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 22, 2019 13:27:33 GMT
Yeah, need a little more clarity on the proposal.
I suppose the quarians, rachni, and krogan can be hidden offstage in Codex entries if the intention is to import those choices. High EMS Destroy means that the crew issues are no worse than they were in ME3 except for adding Javik and Cortez maybe dying (since Liara and James can't die and EDI has to.) This makes the design technically workable if you thought ME3 worked.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 22, 2019 13:41:38 GMT
Everyone would see that as them making High EMS Destroy canon Casey and Mac go out and make a joint statement "this isn't canon". Do you still see it that way? It's just a continuation of a CYOA. As with every CYOA, some choices reach a conclusion sooner than others, each one is canon, not a single one is more canon than the other.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 22, 2019 19:58:55 GMT
There are no obvious dealbreakers for me in the proposal, except for the high probability of Shepard's story going out with an anticlimactic whimper. Ok, Gene Wolfe pulled something like this off once, but he was Gene Wolfe. (And IIRC The Urth of the New Sun pissed a lot of fans off.)
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Post by scifiguy53425 on Aug 22, 2019 20:54:53 GMT
I don't see the point in adding the slides in this scenario to be honest. Same outcome.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Aug 23, 2019 1:00:00 GMT
It wouldn't help things in the slightest. Everyone would see that as them making High EMS Destroy canon and that stuff just being empty lip service, which is exactly what it would be. And what of all the other galaxy-shaping choices from ME3? Will those have one chosen while the others are banished to some little comment as well? Just answered that question in the OP.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Aug 23, 2019 1:04:39 GMT
Yeah, need a little more clarity on the proposal. I suppose the quarians, rachni, and krogan can be hidden offstage in Codex entries if the intention is to import those choices. High EMS Destroy means that the crew issues are no worse than they were in ME3 except for adding Javik and Cortez maybe dying (since Liara and James can't die and EDI has to.) This makes the design technically workable if you thought ME3 worked. Those big decisions I put into the first post in an edit. The crew wouldn't be too hard if you just had the LI's and the characters that couldn't die and one new one. So you would have to have javik,james,and liara there as well as a new one at least. However you could have all the previous LI's (that survived or is still with shepard so thane and jacob are out).
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 23, 2019 1:32:42 GMT
If a player never bought the DLC, does he still get Javik? If he does, has Shepard ever met Javik?
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Post by themikefest on Aug 23, 2019 1:39:27 GMT
Yeah, need a little more clarity on the proposal. I suppose the quarians, rachni, and krogan can be hidden offstage in Codex entries if the intention is to import those choices. High EMS Destroy means that the crew issues are no worse than they were in ME3 except for adding Javik and Cortez maybe dying (since Liara and James can't die and EDI has to.) This makes the design technically workable if you thought ME3 worked. Those big decisions I put into the first post in an edit. The crew wouldn't be too hard if you just had the LI's and the characters that couldn't die and one new one. So you would have to have javik,james,and liara there as well as a new one at least. However you could have all the previous LI's (that survived or is still with shepard so thane and jacob are out).
Here's what I posted about what characters could be squadmates and the one's who might not be
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Post by garrusfan1 on Aug 23, 2019 2:25:04 GMT
If a player never bought the DLC, does he still get Javik? If he does, has Shepard ever met Javik? How many people didn't have javik? I suppose it is possible but the percentage has to be so tiny that it is less then one percent.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Aug 23, 2019 2:27:26 GMT
Those big decisions I put into the first post in an edit. The crew wouldn't be too hard if you just had the LI's and the characters that couldn't die and one new one. So you would have to have javik,james,and liara there as well as a new one at least. However you could have all the previous LI's (that survived or is still with shepard so thane and jacob are out).
Here's what I posted about what characters could be squadmates and the one's who might not be I think if jack was an LI she would be with shep quick. She would make sure her students were okay but would end up with shep.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 23, 2019 3:33:59 GMT
If a player never bought the DLC, does he still get Javik? If he does, has Shepard ever met Javik? How many people didn't have javik? I suppose it is possible but the percentage has to be so tiny that it is less then one percent. What's that based on? I've never heard of a paid DLC with anything even like 99% market penetration.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 3:35:06 GMT
Alright here is my idea. Obviously the only way to bring shepard back would be to go with the high ems destroy ending. Now the question is how to do this without making it "cannon" and discounting everyone who didn't choose high ems destroy. Well what if they said that all the choices were legitamate despite the fact the game chooses high ems destroy. To prove it they could have a thing in the "extra's" part of the main menu screen that says what happened in the other endings. It could be some slieds like the EC wit a lot of text explaining what happened after similar to the end of DAO. Or even have it read like a large codex entry. If they really wanted to try and appease those fans they could make it seem like those choices ended better for the rest of the galaxy. It could even effect the different levels of ems with the synthesis and control ending (they did seem different in the EC slides depending on what EMS you had).
So what do you think would this idea at least help smooth over things for those who chose different endings?
Because it's high ems destroy the geth would be dead so you could easily factor in that choice. I don't think every single quarian answered the call to join the fight so there would at least be a few thousand left even if you choose to save the geth and have the quarians die. So you could just have someone say that all the quarians went home to their homeworld and the difference will be it will either be "Construction on new building and infrastructure is procceding and lightning pace and they will soon be on the galactic stage again". or if you chose the geth and let the quarians die then it would be (the few quarians left and went home to do what they could to rebuild their race and are trying to rebuild their homeworld with what little resources and people they have".
The rachni will probably be living isolated away from others or dead so a codex entry will be enough for that or some short dialouge. The only choice that will be hard to factor in is whether the krogan are cured or not. And even then as long as shepard doesn't go to their homeworld it shouldn't be a problem. A few pieces of dialouge will be fine. Remember mordin or whatever the other salarian who replaced him is dead or in hiding. Honestly it wouldn't be that hard.
Disagree. It's not obvious at all that the ONLY way to bring Shepard back would be to go with the high ems destroy ending... As I posted on another thread, ME5 could begin with Shepard lying in bed with his/her ME2 LI having been just dreaming about what might happen IF he turned himself/herself into the Alliance. ME3 gets totally relegated to a dream and ME5 carries forward with a game taking place totally beyond the Omega 4 relay... because Bioware decides that the canon choice Shepard made was to never return to earth or the Citadel or Council space. It CAN be done. There are innumerable ways in which it CAN be done... and I will object every time to someone implying that the ONLY way it can be done is through high ems destroy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 3:36:10 GMT
If a player never bought the DLC, does he still get Javik? If he does, has Shepard ever met Javik? How many people didn't have javik? I suppose it is possible but the percentage has to be so tiny that it is less then one percent. Stop pulling estimates out of your cloaca. They don't strengthen your argument. They weaken it.
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Post by Polka Dot on Aug 23, 2019 5:19:26 GMT
Yeah, need a little more clarity on the proposal. I suppose the quarians, rachni, and krogan can be hidden offstage in Codex entries if the intention is to import those choices. High EMS Destroy means that the crew issues are no worse than they were in ME3 except for adding Javik and Cortez maybe dying (since Liara and James can't die and EDI has to.) This makes the design technically workable if you thought ME3 worked. Those big decisions I put into the first post in an edit. The crew wouldn't be too hard if you just had the LI's and the characters that couldn't die and one new one. So you would have to have javik,james,and liara there as well as a new one at least. However you could have all the previous LI's (that survived or is still with shepard so thane and jacob are out).
Note that the MET games always provided at least one each biotic, engineer, and combat oriented squadmate. If a player never bought the DLC, does he still get Javik? If he does, has Shepard ever met Javik? How many people didn't have javik? I suppose it is possible but the percentage has to be so tiny that it is less then one percent. That was the last DLC I bought. I played through dozens of times without him - and even now, sometimes I skip that mission. There is a simpler way to do this, however. For the ultimate Shepard experience, you could fill the whole ship with Shepard clones.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 10:45:06 GMT
Also, no solution works for "everyone." That you purport to have a solution for "everyone" in your title also weakens your proposal. At the bottom line, it's just more of the same old garbage... trying to ram "high EMS destroy" down the throats of anyone who didn't choose it and doesn't want to choose it now. The ONLY fair way is for EVERYONE to have to give up their notion of the "right" ending. Bioware... please, if you declare a canon, declare a canon that was not anyone's option to choose at the end of ME3. Then, to shut people up, insert modding support (i.e. sell them a creation kit as DLC) and let them do whatever they like after that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 11:51:29 GMT
Everyone would see that as them making High EMS Destroy canon Casey and Mac go out and make a joint statement "this isn't canon". Do you still see it that way? It's just a continuation of a CYOA. As with every CYOA, some choices reach a conclusion sooner than others, each one is canon, not a single one is more canon than the other. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck; and having someone say "that's not a duck, it's a giraffe" doesn't actually make it a giraffe and not a duck... and doesn't make it any less an attempt at just sugarcoating it to ram it down our throats.. If it behaves like a canon, then it's a canon.
People here have recently been arguing that Garrus is a canon squad recruit in ME1 because of things said in ME3 (and they have maintained that argument for years)... even though no one from Bioware has said it's canon. Others have also argued for years that Liara is the canon romance, again despite Bioware claiming otherwise. Do you really expect that Bioware making a canon and then saying "that's not a canon" to go down any easier than the "accidental" ways they've made canon or shown preferences (like shunting aside ME2 squad mates)? It'll just start a whole new round of "Bioware lies" memes.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 23, 2019 12:32:17 GMT
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck; and having someone say "that's not a duck, it's a giraffe" doesn't actually make it a giraffe and not a duck... and doesn't make it any less an attempt at just sugarcoating it to ram it down our throats In this case, it's like having God coming down from heaven and saying it's a giraffe. Are you going to disagree with God, because you think it's sugarcoating? People here have recently been arguing that Garrus is a canon squad recruit in ME1 because of things said in ME3 Until a few years back, I didn't even know you could miss recruiting Garrus. I don't consider it canon and I don't care what people tell themselves to feel better. It's no more canon than the entirety of ME3, which may not even have happened, if Shepard died in the SM of ME2. It's just another possibility. Just like a post Reaper War with Shepard game would be exactly that, just another possibility in a CYOA series of games.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 13:20:36 GMT
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck; and having someone say "that's not a duck, it's a giraffe" doesn't actually make it a giraffe and not a duck... and doesn't make it any less an attempt at just sugarcoating it to ram it down our throats In this case, it's like having God coming down from heaven and saying it's a giraffe. Are you going to disagree with God, because you think it's sugarcoating? People here have recently been arguing that Garrus is a canon squad recruit in ME1 because of things said in ME3 Until a few years back, I didn't even know you could miss recruiting Garrus. I don't consider it canon and I don't care what people tell themselves to feel better. It's no more canon than the entirety of ME3, which may not even have happened, if Shepard died in the SM of ME2. It's just another possibility. Just like a post Reaper War with Shepard game would be exactly that, just another possibility in a CYOA series of games. Yes. I would disagree with Bioware and you would too... because you constantly do already. They aren't God... not even close. If they were, you'd recognize that they are under no obligation to listen to anyone and would be above all criticism, period. Andromeda would be gospel and accepted as the absolute lore truth of the series already. ME3's multiple endings would have to have stood as originally done because they would all be canon and all beyond alteration by mere mortals. Besides, it's not Bioware trying to apply this sugarcoating... it's just another player who wants Shepard back and only because they want to believe that high EMS destroy in the ONLY way to do it.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 23, 2019 13:42:40 GMT
Casey and Mac go out and make a joint statement "this isn't canon". Do you still see it that way? It's just a continuation of a CYOA. As with every CYOA, some choices reach a conclusion sooner than others, each one is canon, not a single one is more canon than the other. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck; and having someone say "that's not a duck, it's a giraffe" doesn't actually make it a giraffe and not a duck... and doesn't make it any less an attempt at just sugarcoating it to ram it down our throats.. If it behaves like a canon, then it's a canon.
People here have recently been arguing that Garrus is a canon squad recruit in ME1 because of things said in ME3 (and they have maintained that argument for years)... even though no one from Bioware has said it's canon. Others have also argued for years that Liara is the canon romance, again despite Bioware claiming otherwise. Do you really expect that Bioware making a canon and then saying "that's not a canon" to go down any easier than the "accidental" ways they've made canon or shown preferences (like shunting aside ME2 squad mates)? It'll just start a whole new round of "Bioware lies" memes. There is someone who claims that the guy and kid are part of the extended cut.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Aug 23, 2019 13:47:17 GMT
I would disagree with Bioware and you would too... because you constantly do already On creative and business decision level, sure. Not on lore level. You might disagree creatively with the idea of a ME game that picks up from where ME3 left off, but if Casey comes out and says it's not canon, then it isn't canon. I may not like it, but it is canon. For example I don't like the idea that Emily Wong was killed off in a tweet, but it's canon and we can't have her back. I didn't like the idea of the Andromeda Initiative, as it was far fetched, highly unlikely to have evolved in the way it was portrayed by the writers and a whole lot of lore breaking backtracking had to be done in its favour. But it's canon. And I don't have to like it. This is not my creation and my word has no authority over it. Nothing I ever say about ME is true, unless it aligns 100% with the words of its creators. For example, Kaidan wasn't bi in ME1. Wrong. Jaal wasn't bi in Andromeda. Also wrong. Similarly, you saying a hypothetical direct sequel makes it canon when the creators of the franchise outright say no, doesn't make it true.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 23, 2019 14:08:10 GMT
I get the feeling that people are using "canon" to mean somewhat different things here.
Does ME5 having a canon mean anything at all for the trilogy?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 14:12:25 GMT
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck; and having someone say "that's not a duck, it's a giraffe" doesn't actually make it a giraffe and not a duck... and doesn't make it any less an attempt at just sugarcoating it to ram it down our throats.. If it behaves like a canon, then it's a canon.
People here have recently been arguing that Garrus is a canon squad recruit in ME1 because of things said in ME3 (and they have maintained that argument for years)... even though no one from Bioware has said it's canon. Others have also argued for years that Liara is the canon romance, again despite Bioware claiming otherwise. Do you really expect that Bioware making a canon and then saying "that's not a canon" to go down any easier than the "accidental" ways they've made canon or shown preferences (like shunting aside ME2 squad mates)? It'll just start a whole new round of "Bioware lies" memes. There is someone who claims that the guy and kid are part of the extended cut. ... and I made a mistake... and I retracted the mistake. The point I was making still stands, unless it's a part of the Citadel DLC... which is the only time "another story" could not possibly refer to one of the DLCs for the game that were issued.
Now let's examine Garrus' "old times" statement... which you fervently indicate means that it is canon to have recruited Garrus in ME1. I say it also has room for differences in interpretation. One precise statement is this "Not like the olds days is it? Rogue spectre and c-sec agent running and gunning outside the lines, making it up as we went along. We're actually respectable now." He doesn't actually say they were working together at all and he could just be comparing similar renegade pasts. A rogue spectre going outside the lines to capture saren and a c-sec agent who goes rogue and become archangel. Both separate but "disrepectable." The "old times" he could also be referring to are in ME2 - where it is mandatory to recruit him.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 14:39:22 GMT
I get the feeling that people are using "canon" to mean somewhat different things here. OK define. I"m using it to be the "accepted lore" what represents the actual turn of events in the larger narrative. Right now, the canon lore of ME3 is that there are multiple accepted endings to the game dependent on the player's choices. To declare a singular canon ending is to throw the other endings out of the "accepted lore" of the larger narrative. By creating ME3, they literally threw the death ending of Shepard in ME2 out of the "accepted lore" of the franchise. They even disallowed the importation of the save files that contained that ending. Until that point, it was a valid ending... but now it is not an accepted ending in lore because the events of ME3 made it essentially impossible for those events to have taken place that way. They didn't write ME3 to pick up from any point where Shepard died at the end of ME2; and there is no sequence of events written into the lore that gets us from the point of Shepard disappearing into the abyss and being in detention in ME3.
Every "proposal" for using high EMS destroy as canon has at it's root the desire to eliminate the other endings as possibilities and elevate that ending to being the "right one." Were that not the case, the proponents of it would be perfectly happy with just relegating that ending to a "dream" along with all the others. Give it an equal hand-wave treatment and make canon out of something totally off sheet then. What's fair for the goose should also be fair for the gander. If hand waving synthesis and control should be OK with me, then hand waving destroy right along with it should be OK for everyone else too. Bioware, if you want to bring Shepard back - make all of ME3 a dream. If you don't, re-validate the Shepard dies at the end of ME2 ending. Simple as that.
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