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Post by biggydx on Aug 25, 2019 22:01:58 GMT
I put myself into this group (skeptic), and I figured with all the topics related to how much BioWare is in pretty rough shape, it was worth having a conversation about what they could do to set things right with those like me; and others. I know that this won't appeal to those who feel as if BioWare has done nothing wrong, or that there's greener pastures for them in the future, but there are some outstanding flaws within the studio - and recently released titles - that warrant scrutiny.
Rather than harp on those faults, I instead want to allow for people to air out what BioWare could do to add some semblance of optimism for those who look at the studio with glass half empty eyes. I've also left the caveat of "alleviating some of your concerns," as I figured inclusions of certain changes wouldn't move someone completely to the optimistic side.. The only answer I hope people would avoid using is the go-to "Let them die" or "Give up their franchises" arguments. Also, while I'm sure some changes that people will propose may seem unrealistic, it's still worth hearing out.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2019 22:07:20 GMT
If BioWare and EA swore up and down that DA4 won’t require a constant internet connection that will go a long way. GaaS and live service elements are worrying if they are excuses to under deliver product quality at launch with the “promise” that improvements will be rolled out later. If the launch of the game has an entire story to it and is not Act I that will be better.
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Post by Frost on Aug 25, 2019 23:53:40 GMT
I would like them to make DA4 single-player only and really focus on quality (e.g., no strange camera angles, grinding, or boring side quests). However, I think there is no chance they will make it single-player only.
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Post by githcheater on Aug 26, 2019 0:07:09 GMT
A very good DA4 game is a slam dunk ...
If EA quits micromanaging and second-guessing Bioware.
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 26, 2019 7:03:23 GMT
German proverb says: "A fish always starts stinking from its head".
Get some fresh leadership, ideally people that have a passion for gaming and know how to lead. People who want to create a fun experience first and foremost, not a streamlined product with a monetization tail.
Then, have a clear vision of what they want to do, within the strengths (as much of those still remain at this point) traditionally associated with BioWare - great characters and settings and story based single player games. It probably won't hurt to get in touch with their fan base to find out whether that vision is something they really want. Yes, that can actually work out, just look at Digital Extremes.
And then they should stick to their vision and do their thing.
...basically what they did with Joplin, until EA came along and wanted moar live service.
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Post by Fredward on Aug 26, 2019 10:04:50 GMT
An explicit statement de-emphasizing live elements as it relates to MMORPG type stuff AND to see that followed through with DA4 since I wouldn't be able to take them at their word cuz PR-speak and game dev is fluid things change etc.
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Post by 10k on Aug 26, 2019 11:19:00 GMT
Personally I don't look at BW glass as half empty, as far as I'm concerned that glass is entirely empty. But as for what step to take to alleviate concerns, well firstly they have to go back to single player games. ME3MP was the only MP "live service" they did a good job with. DAMP, Andromeda MP, and Anthem were all garbage. Secondly, after going back to SP games, they have to focus more on what they are good at and open world is not one of those things. They have to stop with the open world nonsense. Inquisition, Andromeda, and Anthem were all dead worlds with nothing but hordes of animals or bandits to kill.
With witcher 3 you had other travelers in the world and merchants the player could interact with, and Red Dead redemption 2 level of open world with all it's activities and interactions can't be beat. BW has had 3 chances with open world, and each open world game of theirs felt more dead than the last. They need to dial things back and focus on characters and lore of their games. That's were they shined, and that's where they should stay. Lastly, this one they will probably never do, get rid of the frostbite engine. That engine causes the color scheme within their games to look too saturated. A lot of people here have told me it's not the engine's fault for this annoying issue, but I just can't believe it. This is an issue with games like battlefield, and even fifa. It's not noticeable as much in these other games but it's there. Anyway those are my opinions.
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Post by jclosed on Aug 26, 2019 11:44:34 GMT
The one big major step that must be made can be broken up in the following points:
1.) Make it a SINGLE PLAYER game! 2.) For heaven sake, don't do a "Game As Service - Always On Line Check" trick. 3.) Give us a FULL downloadable game we can install (GOG-Like) and NOT an "Main Game On Server with a small user terminal" streaming type of game that is gaining popularity lately (yes - I'm talking about the plans Google and other company's have). 4.) NO micro transactions and NO loot boxes AND NO pay-for cheats. 5.) NO cosmetic DLC's, but expansion DLC's (just keep it like it used to be).
If these conditions are met, I consider buying the game. Otherwise the game will receive the same enthusiasm from me that Anthem had (non at all).
I had my hopes moderately high for this game, even after the Anthem debacle. However, when I learned the development was halted and a overhaul was done where scentences like "Game As Service", and "Anthem Code Base" started whirling around, I honestly got the same sinking feeling I got when I learned the Anthem would be a multiplayer, GAS kind of "thing".
I wanted to end on a positive note here, but frankly... I simply cannot. I really hope for something moderately good, but realistically prepare for the worst. That's the best I got for all of you...
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Post by cypherj on Aug 26, 2019 11:49:55 GMT
At the end of the day they're just going to have to make a great game. It's a what have you done for me lately type of world and they seem to have used up all the credit and good faith from some of their past hits. Their brand as a whole has taken a hit, and there is nothing that is really going to change that other than to make a great game.
They need solid leadership. The failings of ME:A and Anthem were just as much due to poor management/leadership at Bioware as much as anything EA made them do, probably more.
In the short term for Dragon Age 4, it would help alleviate a lot of concerns if EA made a statement about it like they did about Jedi Fallen Order, where they said it would be single player, no microtransactions (I doubt this is the case). If it is going to be a live service game, a lot of people are going to be leery of it because they won't know to what degree it is until the game is actually out. Plus it just plays into the whole EA has ruined another studio pessimism.
But like I said initially, they're just going to have to make a great game to show people that they still can. If Dragon Age 4 disappoints, is poorly received, seems unfinished, has no longevity I really don't know where Bioware would go from there.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 26, 2019 17:59:40 GMT
What percentage of the target market doesn't have decent always-on internet?
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Post by vertigomez on Aug 26, 2019 19:30:29 GMT
What percentage of the target market doesn't have decent always-on internet? I exclusively use my phone's hotspot to access the Internet, so...... there's me at .00000002% of the market. 😭 I can't imagine having to actually be online all the time, every time, to play a 100+ hours game. But, uh... I doubt EA is thinking about me in any capacity.
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: LogicGunn
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Post by LogicGunn on Aug 26, 2019 22:18:04 GMT
I would like them to make DA4 single-player only and really focus on quality (e.g., no strange camera angles, grinding, or boring side quests). However, I think there is no chance they will make it single-player only. Do you feel that having MP takes something away from the SP parts of games? If so, what concerns do you have for DA4?
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Post by x19dude95 on Aug 26, 2019 23:56:51 GMT
Be less SJW. Go back to making dirty jokes.
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Post by Frost on Aug 27, 2019 1:43:47 GMT
I would like them to make DA4 single-player only and really focus on quality (e.g., no strange camera angles, grinding, or boring side quests). However, I think there is no chance they will make it single-player only. Do you feel that having MP takes something away from the SP parts of games? If so, what concerns do you have for DA4? Yes! Here are a few of my concerns:
- They could integrate single player and multiplayer. They could lock things used in single-player behind multiplayer. This could be armor, decorations for your base, or even characters and quests. Or, they could give you the option of completing a quest in multiplayer or having to grind in single player.
- Combat in single player could be designed around the needs of multiplayer.
- Multiplayer is taking staff and focus away from making high-quality single-player games. DA4 would be out now if Anthem hadn't been made.
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Post by biggydx on Aug 27, 2019 2:01:07 GMT
DA4 would be out now if Anthem hadn't been made. My one contention with this point is that, even if it wasn't Anthem, it would have been whatever other type of new IP BioWare wanted to make. Even if this new IP (whether it be Anthem or something else) wasn't being made, this doesn't stop the fact that DA4 may still have stayed in development even after 2019. Technically speaking, it would actually be the betterment of DA4 if it had more dev time since (past 2019). I know it's awkward to say given how much dev time was allowed for Anthem, only to see how that ended up, but you look at a studio like Rockstar and they make that extra time work. It also helps when you're solely devoted to one game and one game only; which I hope BioWare adopts in the future.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 27, 2019 2:31:56 GMT
The what if game really is not that stable though.
Yes 'Joplin' could have released by now if they weren't 'wasting time on Anthem' and yes 'Joplin' sounded like it could be good...but it might not have been either and there was probably a reason (or more then one) that it was cancelled and it might've turned out to be a disaster. So yes we might already be playing DA 4...maybe a DA 4 that would have been a horrible game that really would put the kinfe in the franchise's heart.
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Post by Polka Dot on Aug 27, 2019 4:57:48 GMT
- Combat in single player could be designed around the needs of multiplayer.
I take this as a given, sorry to say. I really miss the programmable tactical interface and access to all abilities we had in DAO and DA2. DAI's follower AI was... unimpressive. OT: -- Release a complete character and story driven SP game that does not require me to be online to play it. -- If you're going to offer additional paid content, don't be constantly in my face about it. I'll happily buy story DLC, sometimes appearance and weapons packs, too. But if you start trying to nickel and dime me with MTX - especially consumable crap - we're gonna have a problem. -- Please, for the love of (who/whatever) lose that ridiculous broken pelvis Hawke strut. -- Give me the lore-rich world, cast of delightful (and annoying) follower characters, and multiple romance options for each gender/orientation I've come to expect, please. -- Either cutback on the size of the maps or fill them with interesting content. Examples of said content could be story/plot related, character related, world/lore revelations. Not collections of little or no value, and not endless RNGeezus-touched crafting mats. While I can enjoy some exploration, OW does not integrate with structured cinematic storytelling very well. Do those things and I'm all in. For bonus points: -- Lose Frostbite. Seriously. It's done far more harm than good imho. I realize there are royalty fees to be paid for other engines, but I'd wager that far more has been spent developing tools, workarounds, and cutting content to get along with Frostbite. Plus, as someone upthread mentioned, the colors look too saturated (or something) to complement the overall tone in the first 2 DA games.
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Post by Polka Dot on Aug 27, 2019 5:41:10 GMT
It also helps when you're solely devoted to one game and one game only; which I hope BioWare adopts in the future. I don't think that's quite how it works. You can't have the entire workforce working on a single game, at least not until it's in full production. Most of your personnel would be sitting on their hands waiting for design specs or some other deliverable from someone else. Well, that or all rowing off in different directions. You can't, for example, lay out the geometry for a level until you know what it's supposed to look like and what is going to happen there. That would require concept art and a mission script. Ideally, a studio would have multiple core teams, (one per franchise/IP) with (at least) one member representing each pertinent discipline. The core team does the initial planning and preprod work, and once it's been greenlit and funded, you can start bringing on more of the production staff. We know what happens when a whole lotta people are told to build something but not given any clear direction, and it isn't pretty. So you'd have a core team for each IP - DA, ME, SE (something else). Once the core team has wrapped up its work on a title, they immediately shift to working on its sequel - while the full production staff brings their designs to fruition. Once the production staff has a game ready for release, they can be moved to the next IP in the cycle. Lather, rinse, repeat.
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: LogicGunn
PSN: LogicGunn
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Post by LogicGunn on Aug 28, 2019 16:27:45 GMT
Do you feel that having MP takes something away from the SP parts of games? If so, what concerns do you have for DA4? Yes! Here are a few of my concerns:
- They could integrate single player and multiplayer. They could lock things used in single-player behind multiplayer. This could be armor, decorations for your base, or even characters and quests. Or, they could give you the option of completing a quest in multiplayer or having to grind in single player.
- Combat in single player could be designed around the needs of multiplayer.
- Multiplayer is taking staff and focus away from making high-quality single-player games. DA4 would be out now if Anthem hadn't been made.
Yeah, I hear you. ME3 originally had the "good" endings hidden behind MP gameplay, that was VERY unpopular so they "fixed" it. I'm fairly optimistic that major things won't be gated by MP, though it's entirely possible that DA4 will have unlockables, like you say, of cosmetic things. Though I'm confident that it's going to be a true SP game at heart - it would be very strange to make that kind of gameplay change for the 4th game in a series. I'm optimistic about DA4 but I can absolutely see where you're coming from here. (Sorry it took so long to reply, I did get to read your comment ages ago, my internet has been dropping off so I was having trouble getting my replies to post.)
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: LogicGunn
PSN: LogicGunn
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Post by LogicGunn on Aug 28, 2019 16:33:48 GMT
I don't doubt there were good reasons to abandon Joplin and some of those were probably to do with lessons learned from Anthem, if it had been some holy grail game idea it would still be the plan, so I'm glad DA4 didn't come out before Anthem did. I really want DA4 to be a great game, so if it takes years that's cool with me.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 28, 2019 19:09:13 GMT
Focus more on story and less on GaaS
Let us make choices that matter in the game, worry less about baggage in future games.
Put more emphasis on RPG and player choice. The last several games have been far more emphasis on the "action" portion of "action-rpg"
Go back and study games like Baldur's Gate 2, KOTOR, and Dragon Age: Origins and ask how they came to be such legends, and how games like that could be made in the modern day.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 28, 2019 23:26:33 GMT
Be less SJW. Go back to making dirty jokes. Dragon Age always had dirty jokes and what does be less SJW even mean?!
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Post by Frost on Aug 29, 2019 0:32:58 GMT
Yeah, I hear you. ME3 originally had the "good" endings hidden behind MP gameplay, that was VERY unpopular so they "fixed" it. I'm fairly optimistic that major things won't be gated by MP, though it's entirely possible that DA4 will have unlockables, like you say, of cosmetic things. Though I'm confident that it's going to be a true SP game at heart - it would be very strange to make that kind of gameplay change for the 4th game in a series. I'm optimistic about DA4 but I can absolutely see where you're coming from here. (Sorry it took so long to reply, I did get to read your comment ages ago, my internet has been dropping off so I was having trouble getting my replies to post.)
Yes, ME3 is when I started being against having multiplayer in single player games.
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Post by Artemis on Aug 29, 2019 1:11:13 GMT
Just a couple things, really.
1. Show that they have brought on more women, POC, and queer devs (this applies particularly to ME franchise).
2. Show that they have a positive work environment, where they are not driven to work until they are exhausted, but are allowed to be creative without pressure from above.
Beyond that, I trust BioWare to make great games. More diverse voices at the table is always a good thing, and so long as they aren't treated like shit at the office, this is a company that makes great games, end of story.
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Aug 29, 2019 10:07:50 GMT
1. Ditch FB3, like right now. Use UE4, Unity or build an engine from scratch suited for RPGs. 2. Use the ME2 model: no multiplayer, large content DLCs and small cosmetic DLCs sprinkled throughout. I'm fine with gear DLC as long as it is not brokenly OP. ME2 did strike a good balance if not taking into account mechanics oversights with the Mattock. For god sakes no live service. 3. Don't cater to LGBT. Don't even think about them. I don't mean don't include such characters, but don't make it their defining trait (for example I liked how Blizzard handled Tracer). Don't cater to diversity. Make it lore sensible, don't bend the lore needlessly. Cut all possible contact with Anita Sarkeesian. 4. Keep the game focused. Don't make it "bigger" than it needs to be (unlike DAI). 5. It seems a stretch, but don't aim to the lowest common denominator in your writing, especially like MEA where you did 2 different shades of goodie. Make it dark, give me the option to do repulsive stuff, morally questionable stuff. 6. Make the game PC-first. Making a game console-first dumbs it down at most cases. (not in a million years: 7. Ditch EA entirely, don't go to Activision)
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