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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 2, 2019 23:17:49 GMT
Whatever you say, bub. Maybe you work on your creative writing skills instead. ... and maybe you're just not as good at messing with people as you think you are.
I don't mind that you don't like the idea in the least. If you think that, as a canon, it would invalidate destroy, then it supports my belief that a destroy canon invalidates the other endings... and the only fair way to move forward is to stay in Andromeda.
No, it's needs more work done to it. Because it's riddled with plot holes. And no, I'm not messing with you, I'm being serious with you.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 3, 2019 0:10:37 GMT
Mass Effect like any stories are littered with Plotholes. IF I did my Bypass ending idea for a thread, that involves having a new Player Character, Entire battle of London, In game Deaths of Shepard, T.I.M. and Anderson and how they sabotage the Citadel and how the PC disposed of their bodies before the Reapers converts them into Reaper Husk and how the PC Surived the Endings and his relationship with the Reapers and New Big Bad, I will expect criticism and many people not liking it.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 3, 2019 0:17:17 GMT
Mass Effect like any stories are littered with Plotholes. IF I did my Bypass ending idea for a thread, that involves having a new Player Character, Entire battle of London, In game Deaths of Shepard, T.I.M. and Anderson and how they sabotage the Citadel and how the PC disposed of their bodies before the Reapers converts them into Reaper Husk and how the PC Surived the Endings and his relationship with the Reapers and New Big Bad, I will expect criticism and many people not liking it. 👆This. Criticism helps writers improve the quality of their stories and helps them recheck any mistakes made. Getting snippy or bitchy about it, not only doesn't help matters, but kinda makes that person look like a dick.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 0:23:52 GMT
... and maybe you're just not as good at messing with people as you think you are.
I don't mind that you don't like the idea in the least. If you think that, as a canon, it would invalidate destroy, then it supports my belief that a destroy canon invalidates the other endings... and the only fair way to move forward is to stay in Andromeda.
No, it's needs more work done to it. Because it's riddled with plot holes. And no, I'm not messing with you, I'm being serious with you. There are very few wars in history that have ended with one side totally annihilating every member of the other side. Therefore, the "more normal" tendency of generals put in that position has been to negotiate a peace... even when atrocities have been committed. Shepard is tired of war (says as much when talking with Garrus). The geth/quarian war, if settled peacefully shows that a synthetic rebellion doesn't have to end in the annihilation of either the synthetics or the organics. Shepard and Tali talk the quarians down, causing them to see reason. If Shepard did it there, he/she can do it again with the Catalyst.
You're using an argument that no one would want to negotiate with the Reapers... yet, in the other 2 endings, the Reapers are not annihilated. So, history supports negotiation over annihilation and the game lore already has two endings that don't result in annihilation of the Reapers.
Furthermore, I'm not pitching storyboards here. It's a general idea only. Bioware can use their own staff of creative writers to fill in the gaps... as can anyone who likes the idea as a general prinicple. If you don't like the principle, then it won't matter how fancy I get with my creative writing. You'll just shoot it all down in favor of annihilation of the enemy. I disagree with that ending in principle. Total annihilation of the enemy... even the Reapers... is wrong. I can argue that no leader in his right mind would want to totally annihilate every member of another race. even an enemy... let alone accept collateral damage that involves the total annihilation of another, now allied, race. So, unless you agree that Shepard is totally insane, that ending has a similar "plot hole" as the one you describe for negotiated peace.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 3, 2019 0:37:29 GMT
You have to realize that Reapers by nature are Eldritch abomination unlike normal humans or aliens, they can't be reason with to have a peace.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 3, 2019 0:42:13 GMT
No, it's needs more work done to it. Because it's riddled with plot holes. And no, I'm not messing with you, I'm being serious with you. There are very few wars in history that have ended with one side totally annihilating every member of the other side. Therefore, the "more normal" tendency of generals put in that position has been to negotiate a peace... even when atrocities have been committed. Shepard is tired of war (says as much when talking with Garrus). The geth/quarian war, if settled peacefully shows that a synthetic rebellion doesn't have to end in the annihilation of either the synthetics or the organics. Shepard and Tali talk the quarians down, causing them to see reason. If Shepard did it there, he/she can do it again with the Catalyst.
You're using an argument that no one would want to negotiate with the Reapers... yet, it the other 2 endings, the Reapers are not annihilated. So, history supports negotiation over annihilation and the game lore already has two endings that don't result in annihilation of the Reapers.
Furthermore, I'm not pitching storyboards here. It's a general idea only. Bioware can use their own staff of creative writers to fill in the gaps... as can anyone who likes the idea as a general prinicple. If you don't like the principle, then it won't matter how fancy I get with my creative writing. You'll just shoot it all down in favor of annihilation of the enemy. I disagree with that ending in principle. Total annihilation of the enemy... even the Reapers... is wrong.
Those Canon Endings never went into detail about how those effected by the Reaper War dealt with the aftermath. Just saying that everyone lived happily ever after is BS. Anyone who has actually lived through a war would tell you that. And what the Reapers did in the Reaper War would in fact, cause many groups to form up and strike back at them, to avenge the dead. Or groups to form up and leave known space and find somewhere else to live, because they know what they do to people who are not killed or turned into husks (aka, Brainwashing). So, having everyone being happy and cheerful because the robot squids have stopped firing doesn't really work. Not when you've seen your own people turned into monsters to fight for them.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 3, 2019 0:48:14 GMT
There are very few wars in history that have ended with one side totally annihilating every member of the other side. Therefore, the "more normal" tendency of generals put in that position has been to negotiate a peace... even when atrocities have been committed. Shepard is tired of war (says as much when talking with Garrus). The geth/quarian war, if settled peacefully shows that a synthetic rebellion doesn't have to end in the annihilation of either the synthetics or the organics. Shepard and Tali talk the quarians down, causing them to see reason. If Shepard did it there, he/she can do it again with the Catalyst.
You're using an argument that no one would want to negotiate with the Reapers... yet, it the other 2 endings, the Reapers are not annihilated. So, history supports negotiation over annihilation and the game lore already has two endings that don't result in annihilation of the Reapers.
Furthermore, I'm not pitching storyboards here. It's a general idea only. Bioware can use their own staff of creative writers to fill in the gaps... as can anyone who likes the idea as a general prinicple. If you don't like the principle, then it won't matter how fancy I get with my creative writing. You'll just shoot it all down in favor of annihilation of the enemy. I disagree with that ending in principle. Total annihilation of the enemy... even the Reapers... is wrong.
Those Canon Endings never went into detail about how those effected by the Reaper War dealt with the aftermath. Just saying that everyone lived happily ever after is BS. Anyone who has actually lived through a war would tell you that. And what the Reapers did in the Reaper War would in fact, cause many groups to form up and strike back at them, to avenge the dead. Or groups to form up and leave known space and find somewhere else to live, because they know what they do to people who are not killed or turned into husks (aka, Brainwashing). So, having everyone being happy and cheerful because the robot squids have stopped firing doesn't really work. Not when you've seen your own people turned into monsters to fight for them. Are you familar with 1984(book or movie) or Half life 2? I can see Control and Synthesis working while taking influences from them.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 3, 2019 0:51:46 GMT
Those Canon Endings never went into detail about how those effected by the Reaper War dealt with the aftermath. Just saying that everyone lived happily ever after is BS. Anyone who has actually lived through a war would tell you that. And what the Reapers did in the Reaper War would in fact, cause many groups to form up and strike back at them, to avenge the dead. Or groups to form up and leave known space and find somewhere else to live, because they know what they do to people who are not killed or turned into husks (aka, Brainwashing). So, having everyone being happy and cheerful because the robot squids have stopped firing doesn't really work. Not when you've seen your own people turned into monsters to fight for them. Are you familar with 1984(book or movie) or Half life 2? I can see Control and Synthesis working while taking influences from them. Half Life 2. 1984 was 2 years before I was born.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 0:54:10 GMT
You have to realize that Reapers by nature are Eldritch abomination unlike normal humans or aliens, they can't be reason with to have a peace. Yet, two endings result in a peace without the total annihilation of either the Reapers or the organics. They are changed in synthesis, but not annihilated and the Reapers are changed in control, but again, not annihilated. Fruthermore, the geth were not "normal" humans or aliens, yet Legion had already come to the conclusion that annihilating the Quarians was wrong. In uploading his personality, he was not intending to see the quarians annihilated but rather hoping that Shepard could negotiate a situation where that would not happen.
So, the retcon then to accommodate a peaceful ending is merely that organics were mistaken that the Reapers could not be reasoned with. The game shows us, not only with Legion, that synthetics can be reasoned with, it also shows us with EDI that they can be reasoned with. Given free will and a clear perception of events, they "don't want to fight" organics. Alec Ryder also believed that was key to making SAM a "better" AI.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 3, 2019 0:55:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 0:57:51 GMT
There are very few wars in history that have ended with one side totally annihilating every member of the other side. Therefore, the "more normal" tendency of generals put in that position has been to negotiate a peace... even when atrocities have been committed. Shepard is tired of war (says as much when talking with Garrus). The geth/quarian war, if settled peacefully shows that a synthetic rebellion doesn't have to end in the annihilation of either the synthetics or the organics. Shepard and Tali talk the quarians down, causing them to see reason. If Shepard did it there, he/she can do it again with the Catalyst.
You're using an argument that no one would want to negotiate with the Reapers... yet, it the other 2 endings, the Reapers are not annihilated. So, history supports negotiation over annihilation and the game lore already has two endings that don't result in annihilation of the Reapers.
Furthermore, I'm not pitching storyboards here. It's a general idea only. Bioware can use their own staff of creative writers to fill in the gaps... as can anyone who likes the idea as a general prinicple. If you don't like the principle, then it won't matter how fancy I get with my creative writing. You'll just shoot it all down in favor of annihilation of the enemy. I disagree with that ending in principle. Total annihilation of the enemy... even the Reapers... is wrong.
Those Canon Endings never went into detail about how those effected by the Reaper War dealt with the aftermath. Just saying that everyone lived happily ever after is BS. Anyone who has actually lived through a war would tell you that. And what the Reapers did in the Reaper War would in fact, cause many groups to form up and strike back at them, to avenge the dead. Or groups to form up and leave known space and find somewhere else to live, because they know what they do to people who are not killed or turned into husks (aka, Brainwashing). So, having everyone being happy and cheerful because the robot squids have stopped firing doesn't really work. Not when you've seen your own people turned into monsters to fight for them. ... and I said several posts ago that a "negotiated peace" was not a "happily ever after" scenario. Truces, detents, treaties have historically required a lot of commitment and work and renegotiation to maintain as new issues arise among the parties. So, I'm not "having everyone being happy and cheerful" because the Reapers stopped firing. I'm saying they saw no reason to annihilate them after they stop firing, so they stop firing as well.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 3, 2019 0:59:53 GMT
Oh, you were talking about a book called 1984, my bad. No I haven't read it. Maybe I'll give it a read when I get a chance.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 3, 2019 1:00:32 GMT
Those Canon Endings never went into detail about how those effected by the Reaper War dealt with the aftermath. Just saying that everyone lived happily ever after is BS. Anyone who has actually lived through a war would tell you that. And what the Reapers did in the Reaper War would in fact, cause many groups to form up and strike back at them, to avenge the dead. Or groups to form up and leave known space and find somewhere else to live, because they know what they do to people who are not killed or turned into husks (aka, Brainwashing). So, having everyone being happy and cheerful because the robot squids have stopped firing doesn't really work. Not when you've seen your own people turned into monsters to fight for them. ... and I said several posts ago that a "negotiated peace" was not a "happily ever after" scenario. Truces, detents, treaties have historically required a lot of commitment and work and renegotiation to maintain as new issues arise among the parties. So, I'm not "having everyone being happy and cheerful" because the Reapers stopped firing. I'm saying they saw no reason to annihilate them after they stop firing, so they stop firing as well. true, i can see where you are coming from while having an potentially Interesting dymanic for MW Mass Effect.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 3, 2019 1:10:38 GMT
The geth/quarian war, if settled peacefully shows that a synthetic rebellion doesn't have to end in the annihilation of either the synthetics or the organics. Shepard and Tali talk the quarians down, causing them to see reason. If Shepard did it there, he/she can do it again with the Catalyst. If it wasn't for reaper interference, the quarians would have destroyed the geth. The other reason is reaper code plays a role for peace to happen.
I would agree if Admiral 'I have an itchy trigger finger' Gerrel stands down with the geth standing down a moment later for both sides to talk before one side wipes out the other. That would be a good argument to put forth when facing the thing.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 3, 2019 1:12:30 GMT
Those Canon Endings never went into detail about how those effected by the Reaper War dealt with the aftermath. Just saying that everyone lived happily ever after is BS. Anyone who has actually lived through a war would tell you that. And what the Reapers did in the Reaper War would in fact, cause many groups to form up and strike back at them, to avenge the dead. Or groups to form up and leave known space and find somewhere else to live, because they know what they do to people who are not killed or turned into husks (aka, Brainwashing). So, having everyone being happy and cheerful because the robot squids have stopped firing doesn't really work. Not when you've seen your own people turned into monsters to fight for them. ... and I said several posts ago that a "negotiated peace" was not a "happily ever after" scenario. Truces, detents, treaties have historically required a lot of commitment and work and renegotiation to maintain as new issues arise among the parties. So, I'm not "having everyone being happy and cheerful" because the Reapers stopped firing. I'm saying they saw no reason to annihilate them after they stop firing, so they stop firing as well. That part should be cleared up a bit then. Say that, after the Reapers stopped firing, the captains of those ships asked just what the hell was going on. Then, after some discussions down the chain of command, they realised that the war was over. That causes some confusion in the ranks and lots of outrage at the order to ceasefire. And later, down the road, there's many people ether leaving known space or outright attacks on the Reapers themselves (which really doesn't do anything to them), and assassination attempts on government leaders and on Shepard. And, at the end of it all, the situation in known space hangs on a knifes edge. Will there be peace or will those who are against peace with the Reapers start another war?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 2:01:46 GMT
The Reapers have been harvesting for billions of years, I don't think some random dude named Shepard is going to get them to stand down.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 2:08:22 GMT
The Reapers have been harvesting for billions of years, I don't think some random dude named Shepard is going to get them to stand down. Well, the Catalyst does say that completing the Crucible changed the variables. Therefore, mathematically speaking, the conclusions the Reapers make has already been changed by "some random dude" hasn't it? You don't have to change the formula to change the result, just the variables.
I think I already admitted somewhere in one these posts that it is a stretch, but I don't think it is an insurmountable one given the requirements of get that 5th ending and the long-standing practice of the MEU that Shepard can and has charmed/intimidated his/her way out of a lot of other confrontations.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 2:09:14 GMT
... and I said several posts ago that a "negotiated peace" was not a "happily ever after" scenario. Truces, detents, treaties have historically required a lot of commitment and work and renegotiation to maintain as new issues arise among the parties. So, I'm not "having everyone being happy and cheerful" because the Reapers stopped firing. I'm saying they saw no reason to annihilate them after they stop firing, so they stop firing as well. That part should be cleared up a bit then. Say that, after the Reapers stopped firing, the captains of those ships asked just what the hell was going on. Then, after some discussions down the chain of command, they realised that the war was over. That causes some confusion in the ranks and lots of outrage at the order to ceasefire. And later, down the road, there's many people ether leaving known space or outright attacks on the Reapers themselves (which really doesn't do anything to them), and assassination attempts on government leaders and on Shepard. And, at the end of it all, the situation in known space hangs on a knifes edge. Will there be peace or will those who are against peace with the Reapers start another war? Sure, write it up as creatively as you want.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 3, 2019 2:13:47 GMT
That part should be cleared up a bit then. Say that, after the Reapers stopped firing, the captains of those ships asked just what the hell was going on. Then, after some discussions down the chain of command, they realised that the war was over. That causes some confusion in the ranks and lots of outrage at the order to ceasefire. And later, down the road, there's many people ether leaving known space or outright attacks on the Reapers themselves (which really doesn't do anything to them), and assassination attempts on government leaders and on Shepard. And, at the end of it all, the situation in known space hangs on a knifes edge. Will there be peace or will those who are against peace with the Reapers start another war? Sure, write it up as creatively as you want. That was mostly just an afterthought. If I had more time, I could polish it up for you even more. But, I have my own fics to write and that'll eat up the time I'll use for them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 3:35:20 GMT
The Reapers have been harvesting for billions of years, I don't think some random dude named Shepard is going to get them to stand down. Well, the Catalyst does say that completing the Crucible changed the variables. Therefore, mathematically speaking, the conclusions the Reapers make has already been changed by "some random dude" hasn't it? You don't have to change the formula to change the result, just the variables.
I think I already admitted somewhere in one these posts that it is a stretch, but I don't think it is an insurmountable one given the requirements of get that 5th ending and the long-standing practice of the MEU that Shepard can and has charmed/intimidated his/her way out of a lot of other confrontations.
Please see exhibit A and B.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 9:05:17 GMT
Well, the Catalyst does say that completing the Crucible changed the variables. Therefore, mathematically speaking, the conclusions the Reapers make has already been changed by "some random dude" hasn't it? You don't have to change the formula to change the result, just the variables.
I think I already admitted somewhere in one these posts that it is a stretch, but I don't think it is an insurmountable one given the requirements of get that 5th ending and the long-standing practice of the MEU that Shepard can and has charmed/intimidated his/her way out of a lot of other confrontations.
Please see exhibit A and B. Exhibit A - Already answered above - It is a retcon, but Shepard is mistaken about the Reapers being unable to be reasoned with... overestimated them. Shepard proves himself/herself mistaken about that through the geth, who are also synthetics and whom he/she ultimately can bring aboard as allies.
Exhibit B - The Reaper, in this case, is premature in his assessment. After that point, Shepard ultimately goes on to settle the war peacefully without either side (geth or quarians) utterly destroying each other.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 3, 2019 15:23:46 GMT
It occurs to me that anything called "a solution" should come packaged with a description of the problem that it's supposed to be a solution to. What's the design intent here, exactly? I've got zero interest in a remaster. Do I still get a sequel Shep? Design intent is to add an ending to the existing ones so that it becomes the "neutral" canon from which the MEU can move forward in a consistent state - with geth, with Reapers, with Cerberus, with Shepard, etc....
The canon as far as Shepard is concerned is he/she was unharmed during the negotiated peace... so he/she survives the ending and is placed in cryo, since the next game occurs 600+ years after the peace treaty. Some reason to put Ryder back into cryo could also probably come up, enabling the player to decide in each case whether or not they want to resurrect Shepard or Ryder or potentially both for a cameo appearance. The player character in each galaxy would be new. If ME5 takes place partially in each galaxy, the player would then be playing two different PCs in the one game.
If the remaster is not played, the choice whether or not to resurrect Shepard and/or Ryder could be made in a "keep" prior to starting the new game. The player could also indicate their choices for other things, like whether or not they cured the genophage... for choices that Bioware plans to carry over with variables in some fashion. As I said, the two canon choices would be to have resolved the geth/quarian ware peacefully and that a negoatiated peace was reached with the Reapers. There would, therefore, be no option in the "keep" to, say, choose to eliminate the geth or the quarians. If you play the remaster and choose to eliminate the geth or the quarians, you can do that but the choice upon import would revert to the canon. Since choosing to eliminate the geth or quarians would cause the negotiated peace ending to be unavailable, the ending would also revert to the canon upon import.
Your idea is interesting and I see where you're coming from but I'd prefer they stick to Andromeda for now not devote resources to an extra ending that retcons the trilogy.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Sept 3, 2019 19:52:32 GMT
Whatever you say, bub. Maybe you work on your creative writing skills instead. ... and maybe you're just not as good at messing with people as you think you are.
I don't mind that you don't like the idea in the least. If you think that, as a canon, it would invalidate destroy, then it supports my belief that a destroy canon invalidates the other endings... and the only fair way to move forward is to stay in Andromeda.
As I said before, my mind is made up. If they go with a destroy canon, I simply won't buy another ME game. The cost of that sort of galactic peace (i.e. annihilating the Reapers and the geth) is simply too high.
Wait a minute? Annihalating the reapers is a problem? Their whole existence is for the sole purpose of commiting genocide. How is killing all of them a problem. You can argue that the geth dying is an unnacaptable cost and I could accept that as a legitimate opinion and a good argument. However arguing that annihalating the reapers is a problem is insane.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 21:18:36 GMT
... and maybe you're just not as good at messing with people as you think you are.
I don't mind that you don't like the idea in the least. If you think that, as a canon, it would invalidate destroy, then it supports my belief that a destroy canon invalidates the other endings... and the only fair way to move forward is to stay in Andromeda.
As I said before, my mind is made up. If they go with a destroy canon, I simply won't buy another ME game. The cost of that sort of galactic peace (i.e. annihilating the Reapers and the geth) is simply too high.
Wait a minute? Annihalating the reapers is a problem? Their whole existence is for the sole purpose of commiting genocide. How is killing all of them a problem. You can argue that the geth dying is an unnacaptable cost and I could accept that as a legitimate opinion and a good argument. However arguing that annihalating the reapers is a problem is insane. History disagrees with you. Any leader who has sought to totally annihilate a race, regardless of that race being an enemy, has been judged to be wrong/reprensible/insane, etc. I doubt there is a single instance in human history where the attempted annihilation of a race has been judged to have be justified. So, yes, willfully attempting to annhilating every single Reaper is simply wrong... and no leader in his/her right mind throughout history would condone such an action.
Since it is a game, you're entitled to play it however you see fit; but if Bioware declares that action canon and, therefore, try to force it upon me as an only choice... I will simply never buy another ME game, period. Think what you will... I simply don't care.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 3, 2019 21:24:04 GMT
History may disagree, but then again history hasn't had an enemy like the reapers who have harvested countless civilizations.
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