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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 3, 2019 21:28:56 GMT
... and maybe you're just not as good at messing with people as you think you are.
I don't mind that you don't like the idea in the least. If you think that, as a canon, it would invalidate destroy, then it supports my belief that a destroy canon invalidates the other endings... and the only fair way to move forward is to stay in Andromeda.
As I said before, my mind is made up. If they go with a destroy canon, I simply won't buy another ME game. The cost of that sort of galactic peace (i.e. annihilating the Reapers and the geth) is simply too high.
Wait a minute? Annihalating the reapers is a problem? Their whole existence is for the sole purpose of commiting genocide. How is killing all of them a problem. You can argue that the geth dying is an unnacaptable cost and I could accept that as a legitimate opinion and a good argument. However arguing that annihalating the reapers is a problem is insane. Well, some ME fans are insane, so....
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 21:34:39 GMT
History may disagree, but then again history hasn't had an enemy like the reapers who have harvested countless civilizations. With my idea, you'd still be able to play ME3 and use the Destroy Shepard Lives ending to your heart's content even with the remaster and new EC added. That decision, however, would just not become canon. You're the one who told me I shouldn't care if Destroy became canon since I could still play ME3 using Synthesis or Control. Well, the same holds true with this. Your favorite ending is still there. The MEU, however, just moves forward with Shepard having made a different decision... one that, in this case, is more neutral and keeps more factions/individuals alive in the game than the other endings.
If it bothers you, then there is the alternative... just keep going forward in Andromeda and leave Shepard's fate and the MW'S fate beyond ME3 to each individual player's imagination. As I've said many times, this is the option that is actually my preference.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 22:44:35 GMT
Please see exhibit A and B. Exhibit A - Already answered above - It is a retcon, but Shepard is mistaken about the Reapers being unable to be reasoned with... overestimated them. Shepard proves himself/herself mistaken about that through the geth, who are also synthetics and whom he/she ultimately can bring aboard as allies.
Exhibit B - The Reaper, in this case, is premature in his assessment. After that point, Shepard ultimately goes on to settle the war peacefully without either side (geth or quarians) utterly destroying each other.
If there was a peace option it would be cheesy. Why come all this way to harvest and kill everyone if you're just going to make peace with the Reapers? They aren't interested in war or peace. They are interested in harvesting everyone you care about. Shepard isn't going to convince them otherwise. They would turn Shepard into a Reaper puppet like Saren and TIM, than make some kind of deal with them. That's what Saren meant when Sovereign said Shepard impressed the Reapers. They weren't impressed with your peace making abilities. They were interested in turning Shepard to the "dark side" or into a indoctrinated Reaper puppet they could control and do their bidding for them. That's what the ending is about. Harbinger turning Shepard into a Reaper agent. Harbinger has always had a special interest in Shepard, and this is why.
This peace thing comes out of left field and there's nothing in the game to back it up.
So what if Shepard got the quarians and geth to work together. Reapers don't care. It's all about the harvest to them. They are the antagonist after all. Everything Shepard sets up, they're going to try and tear it down. Any deal made, they will go against it.
In the Retaliation trailer for multiplayer, Harbinger issues an ultimatum: They will succumb and ascend. Or they will be annihilated.
No peace offering. Do what the Reapers want, or be destroyed.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Sept 3, 2019 23:27:06 GMT
Wait a minute? Annihalating the reapers is a problem? Their whole existence is for the sole purpose of commiting genocide. How is killing all of them a problem. You can argue that the geth dying is an unnacaptable cost and I could accept that as a legitimate opinion and a good argument. However arguing that annihalating the reapers is a problem is insane. History disagrees with you. Any leader who has sought to totally annihilate a race, regardless of that race being an enemy, has been judged to be wrong/reprensible/insane, etc. I doubt there is a single instance in human history where the attempted annihilation of a race has been judged to have be justified. So, yes, willfully attempting to annhilating every single Reaper is simply wrong... and no leader in his/her right mind throughout history would condone such an action.
Since it is a game, you're entitled to play it however you see fit; but if Bioware declares that action canon and, therefore, try to force it upon me as an only choice... I will simply never buy another ME game, period. Think what you will... I simply don't care.
Yes but the reapers are not a "race" they were created to kill all organic life. Also do they indoctrinate by choice or is it something they can't turn off? Look I would agree with you on every other instance. However how can you redeem these things?
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Post by Phantom on Sept 4, 2019 1:54:56 GMT
Wait a minute? Annihalating the reapers is a problem? Their whole existence is for the sole purpose of commiting genocide. How is killing all of them a problem. You can argue that the geth dying is an unnacaptable cost and I could accept that as a legitimate opinion and a good argument. However arguing that annihalating the reapers is a problem is insane. Well, some ME fans are insane, so.... Well Maybe indoctrinated....Solution is Pineapple Pizza. For Pineapple Pizza will make you more resistant to indoctrination. I have to eat it regularly in order resist indoctrination by the Reapers.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 4, 2019 1:57:03 GMT
Well, some ME fans are insane, so.... Well Maybe indoctrinated....Solution is Pineapple Pizza. For Pineapple Pizza will make you more resistant to indoctrination. I have to eat it regularly in order resist indoctrination by the Reapers. Don't forget the chilli sauce. 😁
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Post by themikefest on Sept 4, 2019 1:58:04 GMT
ahem. double pepperoni
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Post by Phantom on Sept 4, 2019 1:58:23 GMT
Well Maybe indoctrinated....Solution is Pineapple Pizza. For Pineapple Pizza will make you more resistant to indoctrination. I have to eat it regularly in order resist indoctrination by the Reapers. Don't forget the chilli sauce. 😁 Well Chilli sauce is just as useful as Pineapple pizza to resist Indoctrination.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 4, 2019 2:00:16 GMT
Why not quad triple pepperoni? With chilli sauce?
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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 4, 2019 2:01:33 GMT
Don't forget the chilli sauce. 😁 Well Chilli sauce is just as useful as Pineapple pizza to resist Indoctrination. With both combined, it'll make you totally immune to it. 😉
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Post by Phantom on Sept 4, 2019 2:03:10 GMT
Well Chilli sauce is just as useful as Pineapple pizza to resist Indoctrination. With both combined, it'll make you totally immune to it. 😉 true it does for it causes a massive backlash that causes massive pain to the Reapers as a whole. Also to themikefest, that is a good pizza.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 4, 2019 2:05:15 GMT
With both combined, it'll make you totally immune to it. 😉 true it does for it causes a massive backlash that causes massive pain to the Reapers as a whole. Also to themikefest, that is a good pizza. And, as a bonus, it'll give you access to chemical warfare! 😀
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Post by themikefest on Sept 4, 2019 2:07:45 GMT
the worse thing to put on pizza is green peppers. Doing that means you want to merge with the reapers.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 4, 2019 2:09:07 GMT
the worse thing to put on pizza is green peppers. Doing that means you want to merge with the reapers. I prefer red chillies myself.
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Post by melbella on Sept 4, 2019 2:25:07 GMT
So, the retcon then to accommodate a peaceful ending is merely that organics were mistaken that the Reapers could not be reasoned with. I hope you aren't implying that Control or Synthesis are methods for reasoning with the Reapers. Both are methods of brainwashing. How is it any better than killing them outright? We had this very discussion with Legion on his loyalty mission in ME2.
Edit: I'd also point out that, though we could converse with the Catalyst, there was no way to reason with it because it wasn't a person or even a true AI. It was a program, a poorly designed one, not capable of reasoning but only of following its programming. Given that it kept doing the same thing over and over again for millennia (billennia?) with no different results, well, I think we all know at least that definition of insanity.
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Post by Phantom on Sept 4, 2019 2:28:17 GMT
So, the retcon then to accommodate a peaceful ending is merely that organics were mistaken that the Reapers could not be reasoned with. I hope you aren't implying that Control or Synthesis are methods for reasoning with the Reapers. Both are methods of brainwashing. How is it any better than killing them outright? We had this very discussion with Legion on his loyalty mission in ME2. With his logic, a Retcon would be required to make his ideas work. Keep in mind that Retcons are a part of Mass Effect in general. So could his idea work? I don't know.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Sept 4, 2019 2:56:58 GMT
Keelah, you guys know that listening to TIM for more than five secs causes your indoctrination resistance to drop by 30% and also causes Cutscene Stupidity Level 10-induced paralysis, just as experienced by ME3 Shepard on Thessia. Agreeing with him makes you suffer another -100% and being a Cerberus fanboy adds further -200%. Trusting TIM / Cerberus in any way will cause you to be indoctrinated immediately, with no saving throw allowed, not even via pizza. Being nice to a non-asshole asari might remedy the weaker effects, but probably does not work once affected by the higher penalties.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 4, 2019 3:06:45 GMT
Keelah, you guys know that listening to TIM for more than five secs causes your indoctrination resistance to drop by 30% and also causes Cutscene Stupidity Level 10-induced paralysis, just as experienced by ME3 Shepard on Thessia. Agreeing with him makes you suffer another -100% and being a Cerberus fanboy adds further -200%. Trusting TIM / Cerberus in any way will cause you to be indoctrinated immediately, with no saving throw allowed, not even via pizza. Being nice to a non-asshole asari might remedy the weaker effects, but probably does not work once affected by the higher penalties. Good thing I always roll good Deny the Witch rolls. As for non asshole asari, I always get a good to hit rolls on a 2+ to smite those foul xenos. 😉
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Post by themikefest on Sept 4, 2019 12:04:34 GMT
Keelah, you guys know that listening to TIM for more than five secs causes your indoctrination resistance to drop by 30% and also causes Cutscene Stupidity Level 10-induced paralysis, just as experienced by ME3 Shepard on Thessia. Agreeing with him makes you suffer another -100% and being a Cerberus fanboy adds further -200%. Trusting TIM / Cerberus in any way will cause you to be indoctrinated immediately, with no saving throw allowed, not even via pizza. Being nice to a non-asshole asari might remedy the weaker effects, but probably does not work once affected by the higher penalties. You're forgetting about the Javik effect. Shepard and the other squadmate get a +100% indoctrination resistance while t'soni gets a -100% resistance. That's because she appears confused, not very good at noticing obvious observations and didn't study enough about the protheans making her the not so-called prothean expert. I do agree that she suffers from induced paralysis as Leng runs to her. Because of that, she takes a flight on Kai Leng Airlines.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2019 12:26:33 GMT
So, the retcon then to accommodate a peaceful ending is merely that organics were mistaken that the Reapers could not be reasoned with. I hope you aren't implying that Control or Synthesis are methods for reasoning with the Reapers. Both are methods of brainwashing. How is it any better than killing them outright? We had this very discussion with Legion on his loyalty mission in ME2.
Edit: I'd also point out that, though we could converse with the Catalyst, there was no way to reason with it because it wasn't a person or even a true AI. It was a program, a poorly designed one, not capable of reasoning but only of following its programming. Given that it kept doing the same thing over and over again for millennia (billennia?) with no different results, well, I think we all know at least that definition of insanity.
Synthesis and control are methods of avoiding annihilating the Reapers. IMO, synthesis is sort of a way of reasoning, but it winds up with Shepard giving up too much to create a peace. In the peaceful ending I'm suggesting, it is the Reapers who essentially give in.
It is a retcon and a stretch and I've stated that multiple times now. If nothing is retconned, then nothing changes about the endings and we're left with only the same old circular discussions that have been going on here for 7 years now or the option of forgetting about the Milky Way and just continuing on in Andromeda.
Can an insane entity be reasoned with? I say yes. I say it happens in crises response every day of the week. It's not always successful... depends on the exact nature of the insanity. In ME1, Shepard can, depending on background, reason with an "insane" person or two during the I Remember Me and Major Kile quests.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2019 12:35:24 GMT
History disagrees with you. Any leader who has sought to totally annihilate a race, regardless of that race being an enemy, has been judged to be wrong/reprensible/insane, etc. I doubt there is a single instance in human history where the attempted annihilation of a race has been judged to have be justified. So, yes, willfully attempting to annhilating every single Reaper is simply wrong... and no leader in his/her right mind throughout history would condone such an action.
Since it is a game, you're entitled to play it however you see fit; but if Bioware declares that action canon and, therefore, try to force it upon me as an only choice... I will simply never buy another ME game, period. Think what you will... I simply don't care.
Yes but the reapers are not a "race" they were created to kill all organic life. Also do they indoctrinate by choice or is it something they can't turn off? Look I would agree with you on every other instance. However how can you redeem these things? That's why I brought up the cultural heritage though. A museum or Unesco heritage site here on earth is not a race either. It's not alive either. It is still a crime here to intentionally destroy it because of the effect it has on different cultures that are alive. Destroy eliminates the last remaining remnants of all cultural history in the galaxy for every culture that existed before the current cycle. They are the only way to learn from those cultures. Each Reaper, therefore, is unique since they are built to preserve and absorb the essence of each of those cultures. They are not a race... they are the embodiment of previous races in the galaxy. Sovereign says each one is a nation unto itself. Something extreemely valuable is clearly lost if the Reapers are totally annihilated.
... and we just might need all that knowledge to fight an inter-galactic war.
Another way to go about it is to insert a retcon into the Refuse (correction: the "shoot the kid") ending. Instead of Harbinger cutting in and saying "the harvest will continue" after the Catalyst is shot... it could have the effect of chopping the head of the snake... taking away the insane control mechanism. With that control AI gone, it could become the moment the Reapers themselves realize who they are... that they are individual from each other other and each representative of a different ancient nation of organics that wanted to live rather than be harvested... and they decided then for themselves to stand down.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 4, 2019 12:47:57 GMT
The green works for the thing. It doesn't give a crap about Shepard or any organic. It butters up the green because it's the only choice that keeps it around. The thing is programmed to find a solution. Even if Shepard had a 1000 page report proving how wrong the thing is, talking with the thing will not convince it to agree to peace. The programming has to change.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2019 12:54:55 GMT
The green works for the thing. It doesn't give a crap about Shepard or any organic. It butters up the green because it's the only choice that keeps it around. The thing is programmed to find a solution. Even if Shepard had a 1000 page report proving how wrong the thing is, talking with the thing will not convince it to agree to peace. The programming has to change. However, IF what Shepard is giving it (by having settled the geth/quarian war) peacefully IS a solution, should that alone cause the program to end? That's the premise I'm presenting... that Shepard points out to the Catalyst that the quarians and geth found the solution it had been seeking to find.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Sept 4, 2019 12:57:32 GMT
The green works for the thing. It doesn't give a crap about Shepard or any organic. It butters up the green because it's the only choice that keeps it around. The thing is programmed to find a solution. Even if Shepard had a 1000 page report proving how wrong the thing is, talking with the thing will not convince it to agree to peace. The programming has to change. Not to mention that, once you pick the Green, you're giving it complete control over the galaxy.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Sept 4, 2019 12:59:34 GMT
History may disagree, but then again history hasn't had an enemy like the reapers who have harvested countless civilizations. This. There is no historical comparison to the Reapers. To them we are bacteria to be cleansed. Humans don’t make peace with bacteria.
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