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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 13, 2019 12:38:10 GMT
If a companion's fate were determined by the player's past choices like the previously mentioned i wouldn't mind. But that doesn't make the death unavoidable. That's just Choice & Consequence.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by simit on Sept 13, 2019 13:51:55 GMT
Im not opposed to it if the story calls for it but i'd much prefer more consequence for my choices in the form of companions leaving or doing a sten an challenging me for leadership maybe even full on lines drawn an having to take out half your companions ala KOTOR.
Ultimately im happy enough just saying fuck of an not recruiting them if i dont like them
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Post by Felya87 on Sept 13, 2019 14:02:54 GMT
I don't like inavoidable death of companions. It take away my enjoyment and investment in them. The first run it may have me ragequit the game, and the second run I would not care for those characters at all. I know I've stopped talking to Ashley at all after my first run at ME1. I didn't see the point to know a character that wasn't going to survive (since Kaidan was the only male romance in ME1, Ash had to be sacrificed no matter what).
I don't mind much NPCs deaths, expecially if have plot weight. But for the companions, I want to be in control: I want their fate being connected to my roleplay and choices.
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Sept 13, 2019 14:29:25 GMT
Im not opposed to it if the story calls for it but i'd much prefer more consequence for my choices in the form of companions leaving or doing a sten an challenging me for leadership maybe even full on lines drawn an having to take out half your companions ala KOTOR. Ultimately im happy enough just saying fuck of an not recruiting them if i dont like them
But even with that, I want it be sensible. I made a choice defile the urn knowing what kind of symbol it was to some my companions, the outcome made perfect sense, I'll own that one. But like in ME2, I never liked the whole loyalty mission aspect. These were hired mercenaries, that somehow now can't do their job if I not only don't take them on some random missions, but act the way they want. Either watch a lab full of scientists burn to death, or risk having someone die later due to the outcome of the loyalty mission.
Yes, having it tied directly to choices is preferable, but it should still make sense IMHO.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 13, 2019 14:46:58 GMT
I like the loyalty missions in ME2. What I didn't like is that if they're not completed, they become one of the deciding factors if a character dies or not. Look at Garrus. He's been in the military. He has a background with C-Sec, yet if his loyalty mission isn't completed, he will die as the fireteam leader. Apparently it was more important to let something that has nothing to do with the current mission that he was willing to die for that distraction. Is that someone you want in your party/squad? All it takes is a blink of the eye for things to go bad. If anything, not completing a loyalty mission should effect the relationship between that character and Shepard. In ME3, their tone is different from what it would be if the loyalty mission was completed.
As I said on the other page, I like for a death to be believable or at least make sense. Just don't have a death just to have a death.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 13, 2019 14:59:45 GMT
These were hired mercenaries Hired mercenaries will always look after their own, not invest in the group or cause. Doing the "loyalty" missions is good, as it allows, or encourages them, to form a bond with the group and inspire a sense of camaraderie, among the crew. This should, in turn, help with communication, cooperation and eventually sync between them, thus performing better within the field. It is a mental block that gets removed and allows for their true potential to be realized in combat. If Renegade, it's sensible for Shepard not to do the missions, as he probably doesn't care about the survival of his crew and thus most, or enough, of them will die. A Paragon one, however, might actually be invested in the people that trust their lives in his care, especially after his failure in Virmire and potentially Akuze, too. Maybe it is too humanizing a concept, especially for the alien crew and more so for Legion, I guess, but it's not a bad "mechanic".
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Post by cypherj on Sept 13, 2019 16:11:59 GMT
These were hired mercenaries Hired mercenaries will always look after their own, not invest in the group or cause. Doing the "loyalty" missions is good, as it allows, or encourages them, to form a bond with the group and inspire a sense of camaraderie, among the crew. This should, in turn, help with communication, cooperation and eventually sync between them, thus performing better within the field. It is a mental block that gets removed and allows for their true potential to be realized in combat. If Renegade, it's sensible for Shepard not to do the missions, as he probably doesn't care about the survival of his crew and thus most, or enough, of them will die. A Paragon one, however, might actually be invested in the people that trust their lives in his care, especially after his failure in Virmire and potentially Akuze, too. Maybe it is too humanizing a concept, especially for the alien crew and more so for Legion, I guess, but it's not a bad "mechanic". They're hired mercenaries who have done this stuff time and time again. I could see if they wanted to raise their cut or something. But everyone has a personal problem, all at the same time. Even if you haven't talked to them all game they come to you saying how much they trust you and how you're the only one that can help them with this. Based on what exactly? You can disagree with Mordin all game, go as far as to literally call him a murderer, but if you do the loyalty mission, it's all good, besties. On the other side, you can be someone's best friend all game, but if you don't do exactly what they want on the mission, they're not loyal. You can do missions for people and do whatever they want at the end, but if you don't take that person's side in an argument later on, they're suddenly not loyal even though you've done literally everything they've wanted up to that point; and lives are at risk later in the game because of this? Never liked the idea of it, never made sense to me, wasn't really believable.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 13, 2019 16:25:31 GMT
They're hired mercenaries who hav done this stuff time and time again And, to quote Zaeed, it was a massacre. Miranda has trust issues, Jack has killed or betrayed each and everyone of her former companions, Jacob is in love with vents, Samara blames her blood and lineage and hopes to die herself in an effort to stop her daughter, Thane blames himself for what happened to his wife and is regretful about abandoning his son and is too scared to confront him, Grunt has never done anything of the sort before, Zaeed is the only sonuvabitch to ever make it out alive, repeatedly, Kasumi has also never done anything of the sort before, Garrus is definitely suicidal as well, we don't know much about Mordin's past, but we know he is old and his interest in Maelon's work is mostly for his legacy, which, yeah, probably shouldn't bother him and as for Tali, she's a stock photo. Even if you haven't talked to them all game they come to you saying how much they trust you and how you're the only one that can help them with this. Based on what exactly? Saving the entire galaxy once already? You can disagree with Mordin all game, go as far as to literally call him a murderer, but if you do the loyalty mission, it's all good, besties. I don't know. Some characters, if you disagree with them, you lose their loyalty. Or Mordin is mature enough to understand the repercussions of his actions and how they may or may not have been necessary at the time, after thinking it long and hard enough. But at the time, it was his mission, it had to be him, someone else might have got it wrong. You can do missions for people and do whatever they want at the end, but if you don't take that person's side in an argument later on, they're suddenly not loyal even though you've done literally everything they've wanted up to that point, and lives are at risk later in the game because of this Uh, dude, you just made an argument against this, like, not three sentences ago. Never liked the idea of it, never made sense to me. Well, yeah, sure.
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Post by cypherj on Sept 13, 2019 17:07:59 GMT
They're hired mercenaries who hav done this stuff time and time again And, to quote Zaeed, it was a massacre. Miranda has trust issues, Jack has killed or betrayed each and everyone of her former companions, Jacob is in love with vents, Samara blames her blood and lineage and hopes to die herself in an effort to stop her daughter, Thane blames himself for what happened to his wife and is regretful about abandoning his son and is too scared to confront him, Grunt has never done anything of the sort before, Zaeed is the only sonuvabitch to ever make it out alive, repeatedly, Kasumi has also never done anything of the sort before, Garrus is definitely suicidal as well, we don't know much about Mordin's past, but we know he is old and his interest in Maelon's work is mostly for his legacy, which, yeah, probably shouldn't bother him and as for Tali, she's a stock photo. Even if you haven't talked to them all game they come to you saying how much they trust you and how you're the only one that can help them with this. Based on what exactly? Saving the entire galaxy once already? You can disagree with Mordin all game, go as far as to literally call him a murderer, but if you do the loyalty mission, it's all good, besties. I don't know. Some characters, if you disagree with them, you lose their loyalty. Or Mordin is mature enough to understand the repercussions of his actions and how they may or may not have been necessary at the time, after thinking it long and hard enough. But at the time, it was his mission, it had to be him, someone else might have got it wrong. You can do missions for people and do whatever they want at the end, but if you don't take that person's side in an argument later on, they're suddenly not loyal even though you've done literally everything they've wanted up to that point, and lives are at risk later in the game because of this Uh, dude, you just made an argument against this, like, not three sentences ago. Never liked the idea of it, never made sense to me. Well, yeah, sure.
So, let's say you get assigned to a team with people you've never met before. The leader barely speaks to you, questions your ethics and things you've done in the past, as far as even saying they're criminal. A personal emergency comes up and you need someone you trust to help with it, and the first person you're going to is this person? Really? That makes sense?
The missions shouldn't even be available if you don't have some sort of good relationship with the person. But they had to make them all available regardless of standing because they're a game mechanic for the suicide mission regardless, and not really tied to what it actually going on in your game. In ME1 for example, you couldn't get Rex's family armor quest if you hadn't talked to him and gotten to know him. That makes sense. much more sense than what you had in ME2.
You could be doing your job as Leader/Commander and tell people to stop arguing and focus on the mission, and you're punished for this with someone's disloyalty. Even if you did their loyalty mission. What is their distraction now, hurt feelings? Like I said, it made no sense.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 13, 2019 17:33:05 GMT
A personal emergency comes up and you need someone you trust to help with it, and the first person you're going to is this person? Really? That makes sense? That is a false equivalence. You assume this guy I just went to is some rando sarge, or whatever, when instead Shepard is a decorated officer, first human spectre and hero of the battle of the citadel. Whether we get along on a personal level is irrelevant, this person needs me and I know he gets the job done. So yes, it does make sense. The missions shouldn't even be available if you don't have some sort of good relationship with the person. Not necessarily, as I pointed out above. But they had to make them all available regardless of standing because they're a game mechanic for the suicide mission regardless, and not really tied to what it actually going on in your game Right and you can choose to do them or not, at your own discretion. Choice & Consequence. In ME1 for example, you couldn't get Rex's family armor quest if you hadn't talked to him and gotten to know him. That makes sense. much more sense than what you had in ME2. In ME1, while a spectre, you're not a war hero of unparalleled renown. Maybe that is a deciding factor in ME2. You could be doing your job as Leader/Commander and tell people to stop arguing and focus on the mission, and you're punished for this with someone's disloyalty Yes. Again, C&C. Even if you did their loyalty mission. What is their distraction now, hurt feelings? Friction in a highly stressful situation and high tensions? Yeah, hurt feelings is a likely case. Some of these lost loyalties do also give you a chance to restore relations, though.
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Post by cypherj on Sept 13, 2019 18:02:12 GMT
Friction in a highly stressful situation? By friction, you mean a Commander giving orders. On one hand you're saying we can assume things of Shepard because of his past experience, but on the other you're saying the top names on the mercenary list are not reliable because they're easily distracted, and prone to fail under stressful situations due to hurt feelings.
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Post by Serza on Sept 13, 2019 18:04:15 GMT
I'm all about consequence, but you're just asking for Game of Thrones style "He's alive... and now he ain't!"
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 13, 2019 18:11:22 GMT
top names on the mercenary list You miss the point where, while highly capable, they are all not very good team players, but egotistical and self-centered. Some even have problems with themselves, on an existential level. If you put a team of football players together that are very good at the sport, admittedly, but you put them among players they are not acquainted with in playing together, even more so if they are Divas and chances are a tight knit team that consists of players that aren't as good, will probably beat them. not reliable because they're easily distracted, and prone to fail under stressful situations due to hurt feelings. Distrust, suspicion, miscommunication and flat out hatred in some cases. Yes, I would not want to find myself in such a squad. Even more so when such distrust characterizes their attitude towards the leadership, as well.
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Post by cypherj on Sept 13, 2019 18:30:12 GMT
top names on the mercenary list You miss the point where, while highly capable, they are all not very good team players, but egotistical and self-centered. Some even have problems with themselves, on an existential level. If you put a team of football players together that are very good at the sport, admittedly, but you put them among players they are not acquainted with in playing together, even more so if they are Divas and chances are a tight knit team that consists of players that aren't as good, will probably beat them. not reliable because they're easily distracted, and prone to fail under stressful situations due to hurt feelings. Distrust, suspicion, miscommunication and flat out hatred in some cases. Yes, I would not want to find myself in such a squad. Even more so when such distrust characterizes their attitude towards the leadership, as well.
But do a favor for them and everything is all good right? None of what you said matters anymore if you do them a favor right? They suddenly mesh as a team, are no longer egotistical or self centered, no longer have personal issues, trust everyone, hate no one, etc etc.
You're just supporting my point with this. It takes bonding, building relationships and trust throughout the game to overcome this stuff, not doing one favor for someone you've barely ever spoken to or don't even like to begin with, pulling loyalty out of thin air.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 13, 2019 22:27:46 GMT
My gripe with ME2 is that there is no narrative connection between doing the loyalty quests and the party members surviving.
It's not a logical flow of action > consequence. I just flicked a switch from 'die' to 'don't die'.
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Post by Venepirata on Sept 14, 2019 12:24:37 GMT
They should make a post game dlc that involves you and allllllll your companions going off to some retreat and getting killed off one by one by a slasher, and there's not a diddly doodly thing you can do about it other than indirectly influencing how they die and what order they die in, and then after they all die you have a face off with the killer but no companions to help you so whether you end up living or dying depends how good you are at running around the wooden beams in the cabin whilst periodically stopping to attack the killer, most likely with a ranged attack I dunno why I'm picturing a wooden cabin... it's a slasher trope I guess - oooooooooo, just had a thoughty wawty, the slashing could take place in the fade, nightmare on elm street style... DA - horror survival version, only there's no survival ... it would probably only be a dlc for people who hate all their companions and wanna see them die but are playing a goody woody character and so want someone else to do the dirty worrrrrk but you knowwwwwww, I'm probably just getting ahead or arm of myself and forgetting that da isn't that kinda game and me should seriously play some outlast or dead by daylight cus I'm clearly in that kinda moooood
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Post by melbella on Sept 14, 2019 15:17:43 GMT
it would probably only be a dlc for people who hate all their companions and wanna see them die but are playing a goody woody character and so want someone else to do the dirty worrrrrk One reason why Darkspawn Chronicles is a hoot to play, at least a couple of times. All those annoying NPCs you can't kill, like Al's "sister" and Eamonn, finally get their due.
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Post by witchcocktor on Sept 14, 2019 15:34:28 GMT
Um, no thanks, I'm good. I get emotional if someone I like dies, and not emotional like '' oh my god this is so sad, what a spectacular game for tugging at my heart strings like this!! '' but emotional like '' I really didn't want to see that, that's not cool, it makes me sad, I need to go back and pick the right option so they don't die, and if I can't, I'm not going to play the game anymore cuz this sucks. ''
So this doesn't serve any purpose for me.
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Post by revelationeffect on Sept 15, 2019 16:55:45 GMT
Kind of depends: Virmire choices can be good when used in moderation, although I think they should back down from doing more of those anytime soon given they just did one in DAI, and unavoidable deaths of important NPCs can work pretty well, e.g. Leandra's death in DA2, which among the various other unavoidable things hammers home the idea that Hawke is more swept up in a tempest beyond their control than anything else and cements the game as a kind of tragedy. That said I'm a bit leery of just arbitrarily killing off companions in unavoidable fashion since it's nice to have various routes for companions. I would however be very happy with more outcomes where there are steep and unforeseen consequences for certain actions, or where what seems to be the right choice bites you in the ass, in ways that can include companion deaths. Bioware has always had this tendency to provide scenarios where there is a pragmatic option and an idealistic option that carries a lot of risk presented, and they virtually never follow through on the risk (just look at how you can just go get the tower mages to cure Connor during the Redcliffe storyline, pretty unrealistically with no ill effects), possibly because many people complain when they're forced to compromise/can't get an ideal outcome.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 16, 2019 11:57:35 GMT
But do a favor for them and everything is all good right? None of what you said matters anymore if you do them a favor right? They suddenly mesh as a team, are no longer egotistical or self centered, no longer have personal issues, trust everyone, hate no one, etc etc. Well, getting the characters engaged between one another, working with them and, yes, earning their trust by helping them with a personal matter is what bonds you together. You're oversimplifying the importance of that, but that's the gist of it. You're just supporting my point with this. It takes bonding, building relationships and trust throughout the game to overcome this stuff, not doing one favor for someone you've barely ever spoken to or don't even like to begin with, pulling loyalty out of thin air. It's the tipping scale. Whatever reservations these people had before are gone, what mental blocks and inhibitions they had are lifted. But it seems to me that you are too invested in hating the mechanics behind them and nothing I say will change your mind. So, you know what? Fuck it, you're right. You're right. It's a shit mechanic and should never have been implemented. There, how is that?
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Post by wright1978 on Sept 19, 2019 21:31:59 GMT
Nope. Generally dislike unavoidable deaths. Most times they feel horribly contrived.
Have no issue with death as consequence of choice or even virmire type scenario.
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Post by annia on Oct 3, 2019 13:34:09 GMT
Yes but only if they serve a greater narrative purpose, or if they are heavily built up beforehand. The Kaidan/Ashley decision is one of my favorites. I didn't feel like the decision was meaningful at all. Whoever is alive will do exactly the same things in the next titles, so the choice doesn't really matter. I would have liked the choice just fine if the survival of either person had lead to some difference in the outcome.
I don't mind the character deaths, I like feeling things in video games, even the bad stuff when the game has done the work and made me care enough for it to matter, and it isn't just random. I mean accidents happen, people can get squished just standing in a wrong place, but that would suck.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Oct 5, 2019 16:32:37 GMT
Yes but only if they serve a greater narrative purpose, or if they are heavily built up beforehand. The Kaidan/Ashley decision is one of my favorites. I didn't feel like the decision was meaningful at all. Whoever is alive will do exactly the same things in the next titles, so the choice doesn't really matter. I would have liked the choice just fine if the survival of either person had lead to some difference in the outcome.
I don't mind the character deaths, I like feeling things in video games, even the bad stuff when the game has done the work and made me care enough for it to matter, and it isn't just random. I mean accidents happen, people can get squished just standing in a wrong place, but that would suck.
The idea that decisions need to have tangible outcomes to mean something has always interested me.
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Post by x19dude95 on Oct 16, 2019 16:28:42 GMT
Which is why a wide array of teammates, that are/remain alive is essential. And while adapting to the game's limitations adds another layer of difficulty, that difficulty can become frustrating to the point of making the game unplayable, which is punishing a player for something he isn't responsible for, i.e. removal of player agency. Which is another reason why I like ME2 that much. So many squadmates, so much diversity, it was liberating and refreshing from a gameplay standpoint as well as a narrative one. I played ME2 blind, and later discovered that the suicide mission's success, and squamates' fates were tied to my past decisions and loved it for that reason alone. If a companion's fate were determined by the player's past choices like the previously mentioned i wouldn't mind. The Suicide Mission was cool but after the first time. It feels like why would I make the choice what leads ton death. Unless you want to see what happens. Nope. Generally dislike unavoidable deaths. Most times they feel horribly contrived. Have no issue with death as consequence of choice or even virmire type scenario. But the Virmire thing is unavailable.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 18, 2019 13:29:36 GMT
The Suicide Mission was cool but after the first time. It feels like why would I make the choice what leads ton death. Unless you want to see what happens. Replayability, exactly. But the Virmire thing is unavailable. I was planned to be avoidable. There is even recorded dialogue, between Kaidan, Ash and Shepard about how that was an impossible feat that only Shepard could have pulled off. You know, I wouldn't mind if the choice came up after only a new game+ playthrough. Which would prove further incentive to replay the game. I think it is a real dropped ball how Bioware, especially for players that are not very good gamers, didn't implement more features that allowed you to better prep your team, save characters from unavoidable death, lowering requirements etc. allowing you a possible perfect playthrough, as well. So in the end it would really be up to you how bad or good the end state of the game was. A wider variety of player agency.
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