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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 14, 2019 15:14:15 GMT
Hanako Ikezawa the image is not showing up for me. I think my work's firewall is blocking it. Is it the anime girl backing away and going nope again? Yes. Love and appreciate ya, fam.
Edit: By the way, if you could tell me what you didn't like? Maybe we could talk about it a little and I will explain to you my train of thought and you can explain your reasoning to me. Let's discuss this.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 14, 2019 16:44:06 GMT
Love and appreciate ya, fam.
Edit: By the way, if you could tell me what you didn't like? Maybe we could talk about it a little and I will explain to you my train of thought and you can explain your reasoning to me. Let's discuss this.
Literally everything about it other than Ryder returning.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 14, 2019 16:55:48 GMT
Love and appreciate ya, fam.
Edit: By the way, if you could tell me what you didn't like? Maybe we could talk about it a little and I will explain to you my train of thought and you can explain your reasoning to me. Let's discuss this.
Literally everything about it other than Ryder returning. Would you like me to explain my reasoning? Or are you not interested in it? Alternatively, what would you do?
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 14, 2019 23:58:00 GMT
I guess my issues with that proposal are different then Hanako's but I'll toss them out anyway. 1) It would rely on a pretty much some super secret group that nobody else noticed/cared about before coming into the spotlight. If not done exceedingly well it would end up as similarly disconnected as ME to ME2 portrayal of Cerberus (a.k.a. "Ass-pull"). 2) I did not quite got it, but are "all humans" meant to be "Cerberus" pawns? 3) Cerberus and "humanity #1"-bullshit has been done to death as of now in my view, and apart from a few weird fanboys (who are either "very sepcial interest" or insane), players would either go rage (like me ) or bored by "yet another Cerberus plot". 4) In tandem with that, being a pawn in yet another bunch of "Cerberus" shenanigans (again) is probably going to put off more players, especially if one would need to resort to copious amounts of railroading (ME2 did, with a hammer) and/or making NPC either stupid (see ME2 Systems Alliance or Council) or out-of-character to make that plot happen. (As of now, any appearance of Cerberus/humanity#1 fools that does not involve shotgunning their faces off gets an immediate -150 approval from me ) 5) Cora's "twist" - what is your reason for that? I can understand themikesfest's view - he seems to passionately hate asari, so he got himself a nice purpleblue strawman to beat. For Cora, that she's named Harper? Come on, how many people in English speaking countries have the name Harper? I share family name with a well-known author of what some might call militaristic propaganda; he lived for roughly a century but I never read any of his works nor do I want to. As far as I'm concerned "Jack Harper" could just be an alias anyway, besides I guess that quite a lot of potential players neither read that comic nor do they want, because "yet another Cerberus/TIM plot". 6-special) Messing around with potential LIs that are not regarded as "base-breakers" (I would say Cora at least, not sure about Jaal). Even for more apparent "base-breaker" LIs like Ashley, Liara, Miranda (or Anders, Sera, Solas, Fenris, Morrigan, Merrill, Cassandra for DA) there shall be some pretty big outrage if some writer pulls a Bodhi (both varieties) on them.
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Post by Phantom on Oct 15, 2019 0:18:11 GMT
First off Humanity's First is never bullshit for self interest is always a good thing. Due to Mac and Casey would use Cerberus than I would and So having Cerberus in some stuff and form will always be within Mass Effect for they are a staple of Mass Effect.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 15, 2019 12:36:23 GMT
1) It would rely on a pretty much some super secret group that nobody else noticed/cared about before coming into the spotlight. If not done exceedingly well it would end up as similarly disconnected as ME to ME2 portrayal of Cerberus (a.k.a. "Ass-pull"). On the contrary, it would explain how the Arks came into so many problems and why all these deaths occurred. None of these were accidents, they were planned. Perhaps to be explained in that Initiative prequel we talked about ... somewhere? Me and Phantom were having that discussion. Or maybe a book. More likely a prequel book. 2) I did not quite got it, but are "all humans" meant to be "Cerberus" pawns? No, not at all. Just a few operatives, able to infiltrate key positions with efficiency and influence the development of the Nexus. In fact, we'd spend the entire game not knowing they were Cerberus. They'd just be some unrelated, very competent humans, that use Ryder's success rate as promotion for 'umanity, while bolstering the humans' standing in the Nexus hierarchy, as well as their own standing within whatever administrative positions there are. There aren't to be any secret Cerberus troops in the arks or the nexus, whatsoever. 3) Cerberus and "humanity #1"-bullshit has been done to death as of now in my view, and apart from a few weird fanboys (who are either "very sepcial interest" or insane), players would either go rage (like me ) or bored by "yet another Cerberus plot". But the truth is that they actually accomplish some very good things for the Nexus, like the very successful war on the Kett and bolstering their military power by conscripting the Angara, although we will find out that not all Angara will be treated equally. Some will have fared far less favourably. We would find more about that as we got reports of missing Angara. Nexus hierarchy would chalk them up to war casualties, although we'd have relatives of the missing Angara telling us their kin were not stationed anywhere near the battles they were supposedly lost. We'd find out about it some time later that they were basically shipped off into slave labour camps. Some Nexus soldiers of various races would be stationed there and upon visiting the locations we'd learn that they only reluctantly went along with it, under the Nexus' orders, because of the war with the Kett and the large push Nexus leadership is making for it. Some Nexus staff will provide us with evidence of the human leadership being behind the camps. Meanwhile, we will witness the gradual militarization of the Nexus, as well, where guards will start harassing citizens in the open etc. Jaal will have a very conflicting interaction with Ryder, about how he feels towards the Nexus leadership, the (miss)treatment of his people, but also the war against the Kett. Cora, on the other hand, will subtly spur us on, in the fight against the Kett and ask us to focus on the greater picture, painting the situation with the Angara and the Nexus as a necessary, but temporary, evil. Subtly, yet poignantly, we will also deal with Drack's deteriorating health, though that won't be depicted in gameplay. We'll deal with that in the next installment, one way or the other. 4) In tandem with that, being a pawn in yet another bunch of "Cerberus" shenanigans (again) is probably going to put off more players, especially if one would need to resort to copious amounts of railroading (ME2 did, with a hammer) and/or making NPC either stupid (see ME2 Systems Alliance or Council) or out-of-character to make that plot happen. (As of now, any appearance of Cerberus/humanity#1 fools that does not involve shotgunning their faces off gets an immediate -150 approval from me ) There won't be any pro-humanity themes, but rather Ryder's success will be utilized for humans stepping in the forefront, taking point and setting the tempo. In fact, we won't find out that they are Cerberus, until Cora betrays us, at which point the reveal gets made (what a twiist, I know). 5) Cora's "twist" - what is your reason for that? I can understand themikesfest's view - he seems to passionately hate asari, so he got himself a nice purpleblue strawman to beat. For Cora, that she's named Harper? Come on, how many people in English speaking countries have the name Harper? I share family name with a well-known author of what some might call militaristic propaganda; he lived for roughly a century but I never read any of his works nor do I want to. As far as I'm concerned "Jack Harper" could just be an alias anyway, besides I guess that quite a lot of potential players neither read that comic nor do they want, because "yet another Cerberus/TIM plot". There is no such thing as coincidence. 6-special) Messing around with potential LIs that are not regarded as "base-breakers" (I would say Cora at least, not sure about Jaal). Even for more apparent "base-breaker" LIs like Ashley, Liara, Miranda (or Anders, Sera, Solas, Fenris, Morrigan, Merrill, Cassandra for DA) there shall be some pretty big outrage if some writer pulls a Bodhi (both varieties) on them. There will be continuous interaction in the trilogy finale between Cora and Ryder, which will be more intense between a romanced Ryder and Cora, with the ability to make her turn on Cerberus. Her role in the trilogy finale, will be something like Kai Leng, with lots of back and forth. Missions against Cora in the finale will work like the SM, with the possibility to lose the mission, but not die, which will determine the end state for the cluster we are in.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 15, 2019 17:47:50 GMT
Bring Cerberus back. In MEA2, they can be the saviors for the Initiative when dealing with the Kett. Cora will become TID or TIW. Undercover Cerberus(?) forces slowly and subtly, through Ryder's successful heroics emboldening 'umanity's status within the Nexus, infiltrate key leadership positions, eventually establishing a military Junta, that Ryder gets an active role, unknowingly, at promoting its interests, by executing several successful military strikes against the Kett. As Nexus/Angara relations warm up, Cerberus fanatizes and militarizes them, effectively indoctrinating them into a sock puppet army. After realizing what is going on in the Nexus, Ryder is appalled with the new militarized status quo and with the help of select figures and his squad, form a resistance, trying to slowly chip away at the hold the high ranking humans have in the Nexus' leadership.
In an unprecedented twist, Cora Harper turns on Ryder (shocking I know), portraying him as a manipulator and usurper, simultaneously revealing that the humans are indeed undercover Cerberus agents (egads). Caught unaware, especially a Cora romanced Ryder, gets easily captured, offering little to no resistance, as Ryder was opting to present evidence in a peaceful manner. This move solidifies 'umanity's hold on the Nexus and Ryder gets sentence to death for treason. Squadmates that weren't at the hearing Ryder had planned, along with other allies, break Ryder out. Meanwhile, the war against the Kett rages on and the aliens have found themselves in an unwinnable situation. Ryder, now exiled from the Nexus, has to seek new allies to overthrow the Cerberus regime. With their backs against the wall, Ryder approaches the Kett for an uneasy alliance, at which point, Jaal, who is seeing the "great things" the new Nexus leadership has done for his people and how Ryder's actions take him away from him has a test of faith, at which point, he either stays with Ryder, leaves to join the rest of the Angara at the Nexus, or gets killed in the effort. The game ends with the remaining crew reaching an agreement with the Kett, with unfavourable future conditions, in order to ensure the survival of the Kett, alongside the liberation of the Nexus. Imo that's terrible. I would have Ryder return but not like that. Cerberus is done I don't want that in Andromeda. Also Cerberus wouldn't help the Angara and allying with the Kett is a terrible idea.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 15, 2019 17:50:48 GMT
First off Humanity's First is never bullshit for self interest is always a good thing. Due to Mac and Casey would use Cerberus than I would and So having Cerberus in some stuff and form will always be within Mass Effect for they are a staple of Mass Effect. I dont agree with that. They were a major part of the OT but that doesn't mean they need to be involved here though I could see a Cerberus agent being the MB. But that wouldn't explain the other races.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 15, 2019 17:52:16 GMT
Also Cerberus wouldn't help the Angara But they're not helping the Angara. Read the post right above yours. allying with the Kett is a terrible idea It's a last ditch effort. Which is exactly why you should do it. It communicates the severity of the situation and the desperation which the Tempest crew find themselves in.
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Post by Phantom on Oct 15, 2019 19:47:39 GMT
First off Humanity's First is never bullshit for self interest is always a good thing. Due to Mac and Casey would use Cerberus than I would and So having Cerberus in some stuff and form will always be within Mass Effect for they are a staple of Mass Effect. I dont agree with that. They were a major part of the OT but that doesn't mean they need to be involved here though I could see a Cerberus agent being the MB. But that wouldn't explain the other races. Well Keep in mind that it would bring up red flags that All of the Arks were humanity only. So if Cerberus was involved with the Andromeda Initiative in any form, it would be stupid of them to not include Aliens to cover their tracks
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Post by themikefest on Oct 15, 2019 20:43:08 GMT
Rename it to the Cerberus Initiative
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 16, 2019 1:46:52 GMT
Also Cerberus wouldn't help the Angara But they're not helping the Angara. Read the post right above yours. allying with the Kett is a terrible idea It's a last ditch effort. Which is exactly why you should do it. It communicates the severity of the situation and the desperation which the Tempest crew find themselves in. I misread. My bad. Still a terrible idea however.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 16, 2019 1:47:38 GMT
I dont agree with that. They were a major part of the OT but that doesn't mean they need to be involved here though I could see a Cerberus agent being the MB. But that wouldn't explain the other races. Well Keep in mind that it would bring up red flags that All of the Arks were humanity only. So if Cerberus was involved with the Andromeda Initiative in any form, it would be stupid of them to not include Aliens to cover their tracks True, but I still find the idea preposterous.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 16, 2019 11:27:27 GMT
I misread. My bad. Still a terrible idea however. Wanna talk about it?
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 16, 2019 15:05:11 GMT
I misread. My bad. Still a terrible idea however. Wanna talk about it? Sure. I'm willing to discuss opposing views. My main gripe is bringing Cerberus into Andromeda. I like the story and characters the way they are. I want the. To grow and be expanded on but not by turning some into villains.
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Cyberstrike
N4
is wanting to have some fun!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
XBL Gamertag: cyberstrike nTo
PSN: cyberstrike-nTo
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Prime Likes: 467
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Post by Cyberstrike on Oct 16, 2019 16:09:38 GMT
Sure. I'm willing to discuss opposing views. My main gripe is bringing Cerberus into Andromeda. I like the story and characters the way they are. I want the. To grow and be expanded on but not by turning some into villains.
Sadly they have already put former (or not) Cerberus scientists in Andromeda Knight and the Firefighters quest is the most obvious (in fact it's a follow-up/sequel to ME2: Overlord) but there is also a pair of Cerberus scientists on Kandara who are trying to use a krogan, asari, and salarian to make an "organic supercomputer" that Pathfinder Ryder has to deal with it and they openly admit that they're still following the ideology of Cerberus. So I wouldn't be surprised if and when they do a sequel to MEA that Cerberus or a group like Cerberus will be in it.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 16, 2019 16:29:18 GMT
Sure. I'm willing to discuss opposing views. My main gripe is bringing Cerberus into Andromeda. I like the story and characters the way they are. I want the. To grow and be expanded on but not by turning some into villains.
Sadly they have already put former (or not) Cerberus scientists in Andromeda Knight and the Firefighters quest is the most obvious (in fact it's a follow-up/sequel to ME2: Overlord) but there is also a pair of Cerberus scientists on Kandara who are trying to use a krogan, asari, and salarian to make an "organic supercomputer" that Pathfinder Ryder has to deal with it and they openly admit that they're still following the ideology of Cerberus. So I wouldn't be surprised if and when they do a sequel to MEA that Cerberus or a group like Cerberus will be in it.
Well, as you said those were all ex-Cerberus scientists to technically we haven't had any actual Cerberus members in Andromeda yet. As for a group like Cerberus, we already have a group like that in Andromeda: the Roekaar. Both are in principle doing what they do to ensure the protection of their people, but use unethical methods that have corrupted their stated purpose and led others including their own people to deem them radicals and criminals.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 16, 2019 16:53:55 GMT
Bring Cerberus back. In MEA2, they can be the saviors for the Initiative when dealing with the Kett. Cora will become TID or TIW. Undercover Cerberus(?) forces slowly and subtly, through Ryder's successful heroics emboldening 'umanity's status within the Nexus, infiltrate key leadership positions, eventually establishing a military Junta, that Ryder gets an active role, unknowingly, at promoting its interests, by executing several successful military strikes against the Kett. As Nexus/Angara relations warm up, Cerberus fanatizes and militarizes them, effectively indoctrinating them into a sock puppet army. After realizing what is going on in the Nexus, Ryder is appalled with the new militarized status quo and with the help of select figures and his squad, form a resistance, trying to slowly chip away at the hold the high ranking humans have in the Nexus' leadership.
In an unprecedented twist, Cora Harper turns on Ryder (shocking I know), portraying him as a manipulator and usurper, simultaneously revealing that the humans are indeed undercover Cerberus agents (egads). Caught unaware, especially a Cora romanced Ryder, gets easily captured, offering little to no resistance, as Ryder was opting to present evidence in a peaceful manner. This move solidifies 'umanity's hold on the Nexus and Ryder gets sentence to death for treason. Squadmates that weren't at the hearing Ryder had planned, along with other allies, break Ryder out. Meanwhile, the war against the Kett rages on and the aliens have found themselves in an unwinnable situation. Ryder, now exiled from the Nexus, has to seek new allies to overthrow the Cerberus regime. With their backs against the wall, Ryder approaches the Kett for an uneasy alliance, at which point, Jaal, who is seeing the "great things" the new Nexus leadership has done for his people and how Ryder's actions take him away from him has a test of faith, at which point, he either stays with Ryder, leaves to join the rest of the Angara at the Nexus, or gets killed in the effort. The game ends with the remaining crew reaching an agreement with the Kett, with unfavourable future conditions, in order to ensure the survival of the Kett, alongside the liberation of the Nexus. Remind me again.. why do we even want Cerberus back? Aren't they kind of played?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2019 17:28:08 GMT
Sure. I'm willing to discuss opposing views. My main gripe is bringing Cerberus into Andromeda. I like the story and characters the way they are. I want the. To grow and be expanded on but not by turning some into villains.
Sadly they have already put former (or not) Cerberus scientists in Andromeda Knight and the Firefighters quest is the most obvious (in fact it's a follow-up/sequel to ME2: Overlord) but there is also a pair of Cerberus scientists on Kandara who are trying to use a krogan, asari, and salarian to make an "organic supercomputer" that Pathfinder Ryder has to deal with it and they openly admit that they're still following the ideology of Cerberus. So I wouldn't be surprised if and when they do a sequel to MEA that Cerberus or a group like Cerberus will be in it.
I agree with Hanako Ikezawa, the group that is currently substituting in for Cerberus in ME:A are the Roekaar... They are anti-alien and we are the aliens this time around. For a humanity first group to gain any traction, the numbers of the Milky Way species would have to become much more numerous than they are now. As it is, the population of the Milky Way species are so small that the impact on a galactic scale or even within the context of the scale of just Heleus would be completely inconsequential. I would expect there to be more ex-Cerberus individuals encountered; but I expect the Collective to be about as close as we get to a "black ops" organization. On Kadara, there could certainly emerge a truly dark and villainous "underworld" group of exiles or Angara or both (regardless of who the player puts into power there). I agree with griffith82. The story has it has already been set up in ME:A has plenty of material on which they can expand without repeating the mistakes of ME2... i.e. derailing the story, and even doing it with the same plot device as before (Cerberus).
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 16, 2019 17:52:38 GMT
Remind me again.. why do we even want Cerberus back? Aren't they kind of played? I could say the same about the Kett. We can't introduce new aliens as villains, because ... well, we could, but we just spent an entire game running around our cluster, without any of them turning up, besides the Kett and the Angara. Would be quite unreasonable to come up with a new alien race conveniently situated on the one spot in the Heleus cluster we didn't bother to check, though we most likely already did, but they weren't there. And if we did spend an entire game looking for whatever and not finding them, they can't be that technologically advanced to pose a threat. Unless they come from another cluster and we basically beat the new alien threat that is not-the-Kett, in which case we can do the same scenario exponentially, fighting a new alien threat from every cluster in Andromeda, time and again. Which you can absolutely do, but call me a racist, sexist, misogynist, phallocentric bigot, but if that's how you're gonna go the franchise forward, well, I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you, but that's a hack job. So what's different about the Cerberus plot? Isn't that even more overdone?Well, it is. But we're not fighting Cerberus troops. In fact, we won't be fighting Cerberus. Period. We'll fight Kett, Nexus and Angara, with the Nexus being the big bad guys. Basically, the OT equivalent, would be siding with the Reapers to fight the Council. It is a bold choice, no doubt, but isn't that why we're in Andromeda to begin with? Break the mold, do our own thing? I don't think we can get more original than this.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 16, 2019 22:46:31 GMT
What do you mean, we won't be fighting Cerberus? The Nexus is going to be run by Cerberus.
Is this another one of your anti-fanservice projects? Do something the fans will hate in hopes of bringing casuals back?
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 17, 2019 2:39:37 GMT
Remind me again.. why do we even want Cerberus back? Aren't they kind of played? I could say the same about the Kett. We can't introduce new aliens as villains, because ... well, we could, but we just spent an entire game running around our cluster, without any of them turning up, besides the Kett and the Angara. Would be quite unreasonable to come up with a new alien race conveniently situated on the one spot in the Heleus cluster we didn't bother to check, though we most likely already did, but they weren't there. And if we did spend an entire game looking for whatever and not finding them, they can't be that technologically advanced to pose a threat. Unless they come from another cluster and we basically beat the new alien threat that is not-the-Kett, in which case we can do the same scenario exponentially, fighting a new alien threat from every cluster in Andromeda, time and again. Which you can absolutely do, but call me a racist, sexist, misogynist, phallocentric bigot, but if that's how you're gonna go the franchise forward, well, I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you, but that's a hack job. So what's different about the Cerberus plot? Isn't that even more overdone?Well, it is. But we're not fighting Cerberus troops. In fact, we won't be fighting Cerberus. Period. We'll fight Kett, Nexus and Angara, with the Nexus being the big bad guys. Basically, the OT equivalent, would be siding with the Reapers to fight the Council. It is a bold choice, no doubt, but isn't that why we're in Andromeda to begin with? Break the mold, do our own thing? I don't think we can get more original than this. Nope.
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Post by Serza on Oct 17, 2019 7:57:29 GMT
Whenever I see everyone, I kinda get the feeling that even if we DO get literally anything, we'll be too busy arguing with each other to appreciate it.
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Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
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SirSourpuss
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Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
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sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 17, 2019 11:27:42 GMT
I mean ... not that I don't appreciate the overwhelming amount of feedback I just received, but could you perhaps expand on your complaints?
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Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,622
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 17, 2019 11:36:56 GMT
What do you mean, we won't be fighting Cerberus? The Nexus is going to be run by Cerberus. Like I said, it will just be a handful of human operatives infiltrating Nexus hierarchy, basically hijacking the Nexus from within. You won't be fighting these guys, you will need to find ways to expose them to the rest of the Nexus, while you are forced to play along with a condition you are increasingly more in disagreement with because you won't have the evidence to turn it around. When you do come into possession of the evidence you need, Cora will turn on you and the people that helped you gather these evidence were "disappeared", i.e. killed, you will be framed for sabotaging Nexus operations and sentenced to death for betrayal, which your remaining squaddies will break you out of. With no allies left alive and basically exiled by the Nexus, you turn to your enemy's enemy for help: the Kett. Is it the mere mention of Cerberus having infiltrated a big and ambitious project like the Andromeda Initiative that troubles you, or is it the name, itself? Is this another one of your anti-fanservice projects? Do something the fans will hate in hopes of bringing casuals back? Why would the fans hate it?
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