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Post by Iddy on Oct 8, 2019 18:57:41 GMT
A thug seemed to believe so in DA2 (during the quest where Ser Thrask's daughter is found), but I'm not so certain.
Also, what about staves? There was a dialogue option in the beginning of DAI where the mage Inquisitor can say "I don't need a staff to do magic", so why the hell do mages bother with those sticks?
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OhDaniGirl
Incoming...
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ohdanigirl
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Oct 8, 2019 19:03:31 GMT
A thug seemed to believe so in DA2 (during the quest where Ser Thrask's daughter is found), but I'm not so certain. Also, what about staves? There was a dialogue option in the beginning of DAI where the mage Inquisitor can say "I don't need a staff to do magic", so why the hell do mages bother with those sticks? I suppose it depends on what kind of mage you are. Solas (and other ancient elves, I assume) doesn't even need line of sight, much less a staff. I assume modern mages don't need them, but they help channel their power. Or something like that.
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warden
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warden
https://images4.alphacoders.com/101/thumb-1920-1010967.png
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by warden on Oct 8, 2019 19:03:43 GMT
Because it enables a bit of mid range physical attacks, it's annoying to see this heretics of nature keep smashing your head with it, but yeah, it works.
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5,958
Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
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doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 8, 2019 20:10:46 GMT
It's a backscratcher, not a staff! 😛
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Buckeldemon
Now stealin' more kidz.
1,200
July 2019
buckeldemon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Buckeldemon on Oct 8, 2019 20:45:32 GMT
It's a backscratcher, not a staff! 😛 Don't forget about its usefulness in beating up some upstart apprentice...
For circle mages at least, a staff might be seen as some type of badge/rank insignia, similar to their robes, as the warden is awarded a tier 1 wooden branch after surviving the Harrowing.
DAO staves are good as magic buffers and target pointers. In general, defenisve blocking device, walking stick and knocking templar pricks on their bucket. Yeah, I know that circle mages are not meant to defend themselves on Annulment Day (TM). As far as gesturing with either stick or hands goes, I guess that depends on how the spell or ritual in question is set up, especially for more refined or sophisticated uses.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 8, 2019 21:17:19 GMT
A thug seemed to believe so in DA2 (during the quest where Ser Thrask's daughter is found), but I'm not so certain. Also, what about staves? There was a dialogue option in the beginning of DAI where the mage Inquisitor can say "I don't need a staff to do magic", so why the hell do mages bother with those sticks? I immediately thought of that thug on seeing the title of this thread. Let's keep in mind that he is just a thug, and a non-mage at that. His supposed knowledge of anything related to magic should not be given any merit. Now, if he described the best way to shank someone in a back alley, then I might listen. In addition, my read of the scene and the dialogue itself is that he was portrayed as an ignorant lowlife, committing violence based on brute animal fear of mages and some fact he thinks he knows about them.
As for the question at hand, depending on your own dialogue option, Cassandra can also mention that fact, so I think it's petty clear that that is part of the lore and not simply PC braggadocio. I can't cite a lore source for this info, but it's my impression that staves are simply used as a focus, to increase the power output of any given spell, but a mage does not need one to cast. In addition, there is also the benefit of using it as a melee weapon, as we've seen in DA2 and DAI.
For the meta view, I personally think that the staff flourishes are combat filler in DA2 and DAI to provide the player with something to do while waiting for cooldowns and/or mana regeneration and that, in a "real" scenario (read: a non-game fantasy story environment), a mage wouldn't bother unless they personally had an affinity for using their staff in that way. Mages are incredibly overpowered, from both a lore and game combat perspective, so one of the ways that developers use to curb this is to have excessive spell cooldowns and mana cost so the player can't continuously pump out spell after spell and wreck everything; it was quite possible to do this in DAO with just the standard leveling and gear available in the game.
If we're going to consider the use of hands from a story perspective, I can see a couple of scenarios that would leave many lay-people with the impression that hands are required.
The first is that, when a young mage is first starting to learn the technicalities and intricacies of spellwork, it might be helpful to use their hands as a guide for spell direction, similar to using a gun: shoot where you point. There are probably many many magic users who aren't very skilled who never move beyond using their hands as a guided crutch. It's important to remember that, while we've met many powerful and skilled mages on our Thedosian adventures, as we have with melee fighters, those characters should be regarded as an exception, not the rule.
The second is simply personality and preference. Consider this exchange between Solas And Dorian:
Even if he doesn't need to cast with his hands, I can see Dorian using them anyway in the same manner in which people "talk with their hands"; it's just part of his personality to do so. I'm sure he could be more discrete if the situation called for it, such as casting a sleeping spell on a distant target if the group is sneaking about.
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Sokemis
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
Posts: 876 Likes: 1,827
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
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Post by Sokemis on Oct 9, 2019 0:16:28 GMT
It's a backscratcher, not a staff! 😛 It's not a staff, it's a bow! In general, I don't think a mage needs a staff, but I think it helps. A staff isn't required to do the magic itself, but it can help strength/focus/direct the spell. Even a strong mage and/or apostate would benefit from using a staff. Let's say a staff lets a normal mage take their natural magic cast from the equivalent of a sparkler to that of a Roman candle. A powerful mage could use a staff to take their natural magic from the equivalent of a Roman candle to that of fireworks. As far as needing their hands, I personally feel that one more depends on the spell being used. And as Nightscrawl pointed out, some mages like Dorian may just prefer the showiness of it for all/most spells. It's also probably in mages' best interest to let "layfolk", such as that thug, continue to think that they need their staff/hands to do magic. If someone tried to harm them, the thug might think that if they take away the staff and/or tie up the hands then the mage now can't do magic and is defenseless. But the mage could still go "Surprise fuckers!", throw a spell and get away. The first is that, when a young mage is first starting to learn the technicalities and intricacies of spellwork, it might be helpful to use their hands as a guide for spell direction, similar to using a gun: shoot where you point. There are probably many many magic users who aren't very skilled who never move beyond using their hands as a guided crutch. It's important to remember that, while we've met many powerful and skilled mages on our Thedosian adventures, as we have with melee fighters, those characters should be regarded as an exception, not the rule. This too I also think that Dalish mages (and natural born apostates/hedgemages such as Hawke and Morrigan) are better able to use magic without a staff than their Circle counterparts. Non-Circle mages are probably more trained in strengthening their natural magic and deepening their mana reserves (if that makes sense). However, the Chantry would have good reason for their Circle mages to trained from the start to be more dependent on the staffs (and lyrium to augment their mana for that matter too) - it's easier to overpower them by getting their staff away. I think if you paired a Dalish trained mage against a Circle trained mage (with all else regarding their abilities the same) and had them cast staff-less, the Dalish mage would be able to cast more powerful spells and/or for a longer duration. But that's just headcanon and I'm not sure if I explained it quite right...
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Post by Iddy on Oct 9, 2019 11:50:21 GMT
It's a backscratcher, not a staff! 😛 It might scratch the itch in other places, if you're a female mage
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Son of Dorn
Fortifying everything.
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doomlolz
Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by Son of Dorn on Oct 9, 2019 11:53:01 GMT
It's a backscratcher, not a staff! 😛 It might scratch the itch in other places, if you're a female mage I guess you could say: "to the hilt". 🤣
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 9, 2019 20:24:34 GMT
A couple of things people seem to be forgetting.
One: The Mage Warden could and did cast spells without a staff. They were forced to until they got one from Valor.
Two: Olivia's abomination directly refuted the thug's claim about needing hands.
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Post by xerrai on Oct 10, 2019 0:38:06 GMT
While there is little doubt in my mind that mages do not need staffs for thier spells, it is likely that staffs are just a standard part of thier magical practice in order to channel/empower/elongate the effects of thier spells. It's a tool that makes spellcasting a lot easier to them. So easy in fact that it has basically become standard.
For an example, lets say you are told to splash some water (spell) on some guy (target of the spell) about 10 meters away and you have a barrel full of water next you (mana reserves). Sure you could just scoop some water in your bare hands, but the results of such a methods would be minimal to say the least. And you would probably put more effort into traveling to the target and making sure you don't spill your scooped water on the way to throwing it.
But would it not be easier to use a bucket or perhaps a water gun? A bucket would allow you to hold more water in one go, and the gun would drastically increase your range and probably hit the target a lot harder. The use of a staff is like that, both allowing a mage to channel more mana and allow them to funnel it into a more ranged/effective form. Or at least I think so.
Particularly skilled mages may be able to bypass the need for a staff. But it generally more difficult without thier tool of choice. And of course there are presumably mages in existence who find no need for a staff at all (like I assume certain apostates, and several ancient elves did).
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0
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gervaise21
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 15, 2019 18:27:23 GMT
I'd agree that staffs are necessary for channelling magical energy and concentrating the effects. Back in DAO they definitely weren't necessary to perform spells provided you had your hands free. You may recall that if equipped with something other than a staff, a sword for instance, you were required to drop/sheath the sword before you could cast a spell by moving your hands (making you vulnerable to attack whilst you did so), whereas if you were equipped with a staff you could cast the spell without any interruption. Thus a staff was a better weapon to have in the heat of battle. As they removed the ability for mages to use weapons other than staffs in DA2 and DAI this distinction was lost and there was little reason for a mage not to have a staff equipped at all times. When casting spells inside the Circle as part of training or magical research this would normally be done without a staff. When recounting the reaction of people to young mages outside the Circle, the story usually had the child performing the magic almost by accident but certainly without any specific magical apparatus. After all, how would a lone mage child know how to make a staff or even that one was needed? So it is possible that the thug in DA2 had witnessed young mages outside the Circle casting spells by moving their hands and this is why he thought it was necessary to perform magic. Two: Olivia's abomination directly refuted the thug's claim about needing hands. This isn't conclusive since an Abomination is a mage possessed by a demon which is naturally able to perform magic without the need of physical attributes and thus would not necessarily need hands.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 16, 2019 2:47:47 GMT
I'd agree that staffs are necessary for channelling magical energy and concentrating the effects. Back in DAO they definitely weren't necessary to perform spells provided you had your hands free. You may recall that if equipped with something other than a staff, a sword for instance, you were required to drop/sheath the sword before you could cast a spell by moving your hands (making you vulnerable to attack whilst you did so), whereas if you were equipped with a staff you could cast the spell without any interruption. Thus a staff was a better weapon to have in the heat of battle. As they removed the ability for mages to use weapons other than staffs in DA2 and DAI this distinction was lost and there was little reason for a mage not to have a staff equipped at all times. I'd caution against using game mechanics as definitive of lore aspects. All three games have had a templar spec that did not require the player to consume lyrium, which we know is not how it works. DAI incorporated that into the story aspect of obtaining the spec, but nothing changes for warrior gameplay as a result.
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∯ Oh Loredy...
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 16, 2019 17:39:40 GMT
I'd caution against using game mechanics as definitive of lore aspects. All three games have had a templar spec that did not require the player to consume lyrium, which we know is not how it works. Well in DAO Alistair specifically addressed the issue of this by stating he suspected lyrium wasn't necessary to perform the type of Templar feats that he and the PC could and it was just a way of the Chantry to keep control of the Templars (or lyrium was necessary for certain skills not available in game) but then the writers changed their minds on this. On the whole DAO was pretty faithful to the lore as contained in the Core Rule Book, which gives the specifics for playing the table top game. Considering the idea behind the lore of Thedas is that it is a game that should be played I would look to the rules and game mechanics of DAO as being closest to a definitive answer on this and as I outlined above, it definitely seemed that mages needed their hands to be able to cast spells unless they had a staff to hand through which they could channel the energy. If nothing else it was probably a case of directing the energy where you wanted it to go, so it wasn't the spell itself that required hands but ensuring it reached the right target or area.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 16, 2019 19:00:08 GMT
If it's about targeting, then I assume that hands are the easiest way, rather than the only way. With practice it is likely a mage could use their legs if their hands are bound or otherwise unusable, or maybe they can use a breath attack like a dragon.
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sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 10,596 Likes: 18,381
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Oct 16, 2019 20:21:42 GMT
If it's about targeting, then I assume that hands are the easiest way, rather than the only way. With practice it is likely a mage could use their legs if their hands are bound or otherwise unusable, or maybe they can use a breath attack like a dragon. yeah I htink iti s mainly about targeting as most mages use their hands or their staves to direct their spells but it might not be the only way. It kind of reminds me of one of th efirst things you can say t oCassandra in DAI if you'er a mage. "I don't need a staff to be dangerous" when you pick one up to help her deal with the demons in the prologue. Most of my mages don' t tend to use that line though some of my mages have. Most use the trust me line with m ylife on the line we need to work together. I know it's no texacvtl ytha tbu tthat'swha t the trust me lin eis effectively saying I know that I'm in trouble goive me a chsnc e to prove my innocence by helping you out.
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sjsharp2010
N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 10,596 Likes: 18,381
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Go Team!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Oct 16, 2019 20:24:21 GMT
It's a backscratcher, not a staff! 😛 It's a bow didn't anyone tell you that.
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House Targaryen
N5
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: gscott7833
Prime Posts: 1,584
Posts: 4,535 Likes: 10,214
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House Targaryen
The night is dark and full of terrors, but the fire burns them all away.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
gscott7833
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Post by House Targaryen on Oct 16, 2019 22:17:01 GMT
Besides using a staff looks so much cooler compared to someone flapping their hands around
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N7
Go Team!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 10,596 Likes: 18,381
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Go Team!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Oct 16, 2019 22:49:27 GMT
Besides using a staff looks so much cooler compared to someone flapping their hands around That and it gives the mage something to hit their enemies over the head with if they get too close.
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Post by Iddy on Oct 17, 2019 11:52:33 GMT
Besides using a staff looks so much cooler compared to someone flapping their hands around Anime does fine without.
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Wanted Apostate
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Top
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Post by Catilina on Oct 17, 2019 22:39:05 GMT
(If the staff is necessary for the magic, the mages, without staff aren't dangerous...)
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 18, 2019 12:29:13 GMT
For some reason, I read it as "do mages really need to wash their hands in order to cast spells". Discuss.
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Sokemis
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
Posts: 876 Likes: 1,827
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Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire
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Post by Sokemis on Oct 18, 2019 15:13:55 GMT
For some reason, I read it as "do mages really need to wash their hands in order to cast spells". Discuss. I would hope the healers at least do...
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 18, 2019 15:21:42 GMT
I would hope the healers at least do... Why? Touching isn't usually involved.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Oct 18, 2019 16:31:14 GMT
I would hope the healers at least do... *Paladin finds wounded man dying on the street *Use Lay On Filthy Paladin Hands on him -Hey, thanks! I thought I was going to die for goo- *Goes into anaphylactic shock *Dies *Paladin backs away *Walks off whistling indifferently Why? Touching isn't usually involved. Lucky for them. Imagine trying to heal a bleeding woman with Lay on Hands and getting #MeToo'd? -This incel touched me! I feel so violated ... -Ma'am, you were bleeding. -It was my period, you misogynist! Now I'm thinking I'm going to #MeToo the next dude that plays Paladin in my campaigns.
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