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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 5, 2019 15:54:51 GMT
The Keene Act was repealed because of the 7th Kalvary, why a small terrorist group that is predominantly based in one state warrants this nuclear option when martial law is an option is beyond my reasoning, besides it being a possible yet sloppy justification for Sister Night's unimpeded vigilantism. Has the Keene Act been explicitly stated to have been repealed? It was still in existence when Laurie and Dan were arrested for violating it in 1995 and Laurie arrested the pseudo-Batman at the bank in Ep 3 for seemingly violating the Act with his illegal vigilantism. It's worth restating that Sister Night isn't a vigilante, she's a masked cop.
We have to draw a distinction because unlike illegal vigilantes who act with no sanction or oversight from the state, the police are still bound by the same rules, regulations and limitations that applied before they began wearing masks, the only difference is that now their identities are no longer subject to public disclosure. That's why despite wearing masks, the cops still have to get authorisation before they are able to use their firearms, unlike vigilantes who would not seek permission to act.
We do see the masked cops are repeatedly violating suspect's rights, however this might be explained by a remark that Looking Glass makes early on, stating that as terrorists, the members of the 7thK don't have any rights (suggesting a suspension of habeas corpus and normal due process).
Admittedly though, this timeline's US having something similar to the "Patriot Act" doesn't seemingly gel with what we're told about them being very left-wing. Nor would Laurie make a point of bringing up the issue of prisoner rights (even if she doesn't care) and Looking Glass have to cover for Sister Night beating information out of a suspect, if these sorts of activities were being "officially" sanctioned. This more suggests that the Tulsa PD are overstepping their bounds when it comes to trying to take down the 7thK and engaging in activities they're not normally supposed to.
It does not necessarily mean that all masked cops in the US are prone to and/or actively engaging in vigilante justice, only that it is a in-universe concern whether the power of anonymity from a mask might make some more liable to succumb to vigilante tactics?
(Laurie seems to be under the belief that there isn't any difference, but that could be chalked up to her cynicism) Repeal is the wrong word since Senator Joe Keene circumvented the law with the DoPA which allowed non federal employees like Tulsa's police officers to wear masks, and or run around in costumes in broad daylight like Sister Night. I'll have to check to see if DoPA was applied to all of the country's police forces. The issue with Lindelof's script is that the only people who openly oppose the government are white supremacist terrorists who murder women and children too. Nearly all of the police's perceived human rights abuses are in reaction to the White Night murders the 7th Kalvary committed. The inclusion of a one dimensional unsympathetic terrorist group to serve as a foil to the fascist police/government has created the notion that the system as is in Lindelof's Watchmen verse is worth preservation because those who oppose it are alt rights nazis, bad guys.
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Post by Sifr on Dec 8, 2019 13:54:56 GMT
The issue with Lindelof's script is that the only people who openly oppose the government are white supremacist terrorists who murder women and children too. Nearly all of the police's perceived human rights abuses are in reaction to the White Night murders the 7th Kalvary committed. The inclusion of a one dimensional unsympathetic terrorist group to serve as a foil to the fascist police/government has created the notion that the system as is in Lindelof's Watchmen verse is worth preservation because those who oppose it are alt rights nazis, bad guys. Even though the cops are fighting against a greater evil (white supremacy), they are in no way portrayed as the "good" guys.
Both in the 1930s flashbacks and in the present day we've seen the police depicted as corrupted institutions. In the 1930s, members of the NYPD are revealed as being racist and actively working alongside white supremacists, while in the present day, the police have adopting the same methodology as their enemy (masks and secrecy) in order to fight them.
When Will murdered the cops and white supremacists, it was not a heroic moment. His victims might have been evil men who deserved their comeuppance, but that doesn't make Will one of the good guys by default. By choosing vengeance over the law, he perverted his own ideals and reason for becoming a cop in the first place (wanting to be like the legendary Bass Reeves). Will might have fought against corrupt men, but in doing so, he became corrupted too.
The running theme of the series seems to be that things tend to get corrupted over time.
The police have become no better than vigilantes in response to the WK, Rorschach's legacy has been coopted the same type of evildoers he fought against, America swung from right to left but is no less dystopian that it was in 1985, the US may have won the Vietnam war but then annexed the country, Veidt might have saved the world from nuclear war but it didn't result in the peaceful world he intended, etc.
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Post by BamBam the Destroyer on Dec 8, 2019 17:52:13 GMT
I heard this show was some Godwin's law paranoia nonsense.
Is that about right?
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 9, 2019 17:11:01 GMT
I heard this show was some Godwin's law paranoia nonsense. Is that about right? The original creator Alan Moore is an anarcho, commie, hippie, mysticist and he ignores the show for good reason. The showrunner Lindelof takes a popular ip, and uses it as a thinly veiled vehicle to advertise his corporate manufactured political beliefs all under the guise of emulating the core themes, and spirit of the original graphic novel. Dr Manhattan after leaving earth to explore the great mysteries of the cosmos abruptly returns to earth to live his life as a black man in Tulsa Oklahoma of all places, which puts him into conflict with white supremacist terrorist Nazi hicks who wield advanced technology that would even make Marvel's Hydra envious. iirc the 7th Kalvary also have a brainwashing device that they use to make blacks commit crimes. TL;DR i would like to say yes, but the writing sometimes borders on parody to the point that it looks like it was specifically crafted to troll everyone.
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 9, 2019 17:47:34 GMT
The issue with Lindelof's script is that the only people who openly oppose the government are white supremacist terrorists who murder women and children too. Nearly all of the police's perceived human rights abuses are in reaction to the White Night murders the 7th Kalvary committed. The inclusion of a one dimensional unsympathetic terrorist group to serve as a foil to the fascist police/government has created the notion that the system as is in Lindelof's Watchmen verse is worth preservation because those who oppose it are alt rights nazis, bad guys. Even though the cops are fighting against a greater evil (white supremacy), they are in no way portrayed as the "good" guys.
Both in the 1930s flashbacks and in the present day we've seen the police depicted as corrupted institutions. In the 1930s, members of the NYPD are revealed as being racist and actively working alongside white supremacists, while in the present day, the police have adopting the same methodology as their enemy (masks and secrecy) in order to fight them.
When Will murdered the cops and white supremacists, it was not a heroic moment. His victims might have been evil men who deserved their comeuppance, but that doesn't make Will one of the good guys by default. By choosing vengeance over the law, he perverted his own ideals and reason for becoming a cop in the first place (wanting to be like the legendary Bass Reeves). Will might have fought against corrupt men, but in doing so, he became corrupted too.
The running theme of the series seems to be that things tend to get corrupted over time.
The police have become no better than vigilantes in response to the WK, Rorschach's legacy has been coopted the same type of evildoers he fought against, America swung from right to left but is no less dystopian that it was in 1985, the US may have won the Vietnam war but then annexed the country, Veidt might have saved the world from nuclear war but it didn't result in the peaceful world he intended, etc.
The police being depicted as corrupt institutions in an attempt to present a morally gray conflict falls flat on it's face when their only foils are comically one dimensional bad guys who murder children. Tulsa's police only donned their masks in an effort to protect their families after the 7th Kalvary hunted down, and slaughtered the families of the known police officers. The militarisation of the police and the lifting of the Keene act for state and federal employees are all in response to the 7th K's massacres. The only threats to Veidt's utopia (ironic) and the fascist world government are white supremacists who are ironically the only people to oppose the corrupt fascist system while our plucky heroes who can do no wrong unironically seek to preserve said system.
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Sept 27, 2021 23:28:25 GMT
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I hunt, therefore I am
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August 2016
jockcranley
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by BamBam the Destroyer on Dec 9, 2019 17:53:15 GMT
I heard this show was some Godwin's law paranoia nonsense. Is that about right? The original creator Alan Moore an anarcho, commie, hippie, mysticist and he ignores the show for good reason. The showrunner Lindelof takes a popular ip, and uses it as a thinly veiled vehicle to advertise his corporate manufactured political beliefs all under the guise of emulating the core themes, and spirit of the original graphic novel. Dr Manhattan after leaving earth to explore the great mysteries of the cosmos abruptly returns to earth to live his life as a black man in Tulsa Oklahoma of all places, which puts him into conflict with white supremacist terrorist Nazi hicks who wield advanced technology that would even make Marvel's Hydra envious. iirc the 7th Kalvary also have a brainwashing device that they use to make blacks commit crimes. TL;DR i would like to say yes, but the writing sometimes borders on parody to the point that it looks like it was specifically crafted to troll everyone. That is.. shamefully terrible. The original graphic novel, while shamelessly over the top, was actually very thoughtful and intriguing. In my opinion, it didn't really pander to anyone. Mankind was walking towards its own destruction... and it was everyone's fault. This is just.. what? Pandering horseshit. From what I see here, these are the issues: 1.) Fundamentally changing established characters is creatively bankrupt and disrespectful If you want to introduce a new angle on an established IP, MAKE NEW CHARACTERS! Don't drastically reformat old ones. No one likes that. The people who you are trying to pander to will find it cheap and hollow (which it is) and the established fans will feel betrayed. They could have made a new black superhero AND IT WOULD BE FINE. Making Dr. Manhattan black was dumb. Super dumb. 2.) The cognative dissonance is real -My enemies are uneducated, backwater hicks -My enemies have a functional understanding of highly advanced technology that even Ozzymandias didn't have with his billions and years of planning and research Two mutually exclusive angles. Two at the same time. Holy crap. Your enemies cannot be uneducated losers and well-resourced evil geniuses AT THE SAME TIME. 3.) The pandering is just... AAAHH MY EYES I mean, WTF? The whole thing sounds like some far left conspiracy theory crap. I know a lot of people who liked the novel, and even the movie, who were on both sides of the aisle. There were many a universal message in it. This is just.. Nope! Thank you for the warning. No HBO subscription for this.
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Post by Lavochkin on Dec 10, 2019 6:53:18 GMT
The hell? Dr. Manhattan becomes the male Rachel Dolezal?
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Dec 11, 2019 0:33:20 GMT
Why the fuck is Doctor Manhattan living as a family man?
This show is trash.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 20, 2019 22:33:35 GMT
Why shouldn't he?
I don't get the Dolezal gag -- the race of the body he copied was Angela's choice. Jon didn't care.
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N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
Posts: 2,677 Likes: 3,624
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Obadiah on Dec 26, 2019 14:54:39 GMT
I loved it. - Loved the callbacks to the original comic, - loved the new origin of Hooded Justice, - loved the focus on race relations, and the impact and reaction to President Redford's super liberal policies, - loved the how Angela Abar suddenly realized how privileged she was when she relives her grandfather's memories. - loved how the 2 stories of Adrian and Angela converged in the finale with the reveal of who Trieu was, and then how they were resolved in the rest of the episode.
Surprised the whole Dr-Manhattan-in-blackface wasn't more of thing, except in a passing reference by Adrian, but, hey, "smartest man in the world".
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Dec 28, 2019 22:54:19 GMT
Yeah, Jon's decision to become mortal again (even if only for a while) seems in-character.
He was already losing his humanity and becoming weary of his prescience in the original graphic novel. When he realised that the tachyon interference blocked his ability to see the future, he became excited at the prospect of not knowing what was going to happen for the first time in decades.
He wanted the chance to live the life he never could have had with Janey and Laurie, free from the powers that eventually alienated them from him.
Surprised the whole Dr-Manhattan-in-blackface wasn't more of thing, except in a passing reference by Adrian, but, hey, "smartest man in the world". The more important question is if Jon can look like anything he wants and he always had this ability... doesn't that mean he could have made himself look like he did before, but instead deliberately chose to spend decades as a blue man with his junk out?
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Obadiah
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
Posts: 2,677 Likes: 3,624
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Obadiah on Dec 29, 2019 17:19:09 GMT
Yeah, Jon's decision to become mortal again (even if only for a while) seems in-character.
He was already losing his humanity and becoming weary of his prescience in the original graphic novel. When he realised that the tachyon interference blocked his ability to see the future, he became excited at the prospect of not knowing what was going to happen for the first time in decades.
He wanted the chance to live the life he never could have had with Janey and Laurie, free from the powers that eventually alienated them from him.
Surprised the whole Dr-Manhattan-in-blackface wasn't more of thing, except in a passing reference by Adrian, but, hey, "smartest man in the world". The more important question is if Jon can look like anything he wants and he always had this ability... doesn't that mean he could have made himself look like he did before, but instead deliberately chose to spend decades as a blue man with his junk out? He could have. Maybe before Angela he didn't care how he looked, or that he should fit in?
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Sifr on Dec 31, 2019 3:40:40 GMT
He could have. Maybe before Angela he didn't care how he looked, or that he should fit in? I suppose he might have also had no choice in the matter, because from his perspective, spending decades as a giant naked blue man is something he will do/is doing/has done until he chooses to adopt the form of Kal.
That's something that actually bothered me about the last few episodes when everyone's talking about what they do if they got his power... forgetting if they did, they'd be bound by the same limitation that Doctor Manhattan has due to his unique perspective of time, leaving them unable to take any action except that which they know they will take.
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