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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 26, 2019 17:52:27 GMT
Not only are they only a threat because everyone else is literally unarmed besides some small arms. But their entire reproduction cycle doesn't make any sense. It is one thing for exaltation to be utilized on new races but it seems to be their only method for reproduction. Which makes no sense given their technology level as they would literally expend more troops then they could hope to gain against a technological equal. Spending 3 lives to get 2 new Kett doesn't make any sense what so ever. I don't check you on this. It is not possible that the kett can't reproduce at all without exaltation, since their "ancient pure lineages" are still extant, per Dr. Aden's intelligence Huh? The kett have ships capable of space combat too. Granted, the tiny kett expeditionary force in Heleus couldn't take on the entirety of the Alliance, but what does that prove? The Heleus force was a reasonable size to take on the angara, which is what it was supposed to do, and it was doing well enough until the events of the game.
Ancient and pure lineage just means genetics which the Kett have shown to be able to manipulate at will. Lexi examines a Kett and tells Jaal that there isn't a trace of Angara left in the Kett. A total genetic and biological recreation of their body on every level. They could take a hamster and over time genetically modify it into a pure and ancient Kett lineage. Given rank in the Kett seems to be based on how much of that pure Kett genetics you have this seems to support this.
It makes no sense for "ancient and pure" Kett lines to lead an entire race that is obsessed with integrating new genetic material from other races into their DNA to the point that their entire military and technology is build around that aspect. Particularly when exaltation is a slow labor intensive activity that has a heavy religious overtones to it. The Moshea makes it clear the Kett could use the genetics technology to clone new Kett with a hell of a lot more efficiency then the exaltation process. Worshiping purity while also obsessing over adding new genetic material and launching decades long wars to slowly absorb and exalt new races and add their genetic potential to the Kett as a whole makes 0 sense what so ever.
At this point the only way any of this paradox of complete opposite thoughts make any sense is if the Kett are physically unable to reproduce biologically and require exaltation to reproduce. Otherwise it would be far far far far far far far far easier to kidnap a few hundred or thousand individuals, extract the genetic advantages and integrate it with the Kett DNA and then go in guns blazing to conquer the new area and integrate it into the Kett empire as a slave state.
As for the Kett ships. Yes they are literally the only ships in Andromeda that are capable of space conflict. Which is the point. The game tries so hard to avoid actually addressing how easily the Kett were able to attack the Nexus and take Ark Hyperion. All you get is a few minutes of playing as the sibling and then cuts to black and suddenly you are sitting on the Ark with the Archon in control. Given that the Kett were already showing signs of issues with the Archon and the 2nd in command is literally willing to let you kill the Archon it makes no sense that he or someone else wouldn't take the time to abduct as many people off the Ark as possible.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 26, 2019 18:39:55 GMT
I don't check you on this. It is not possible that the kett can't reproduce at all without exaltation, since their "ancient pure lineages" are still extant, per Dr. Aden's intelligence Huh? The kett have ships capable of space combat too. Granted, the tiny kett expeditionary force in Heleus couldn't take on the entirety of the Alliance, but what does that prove? The Heleus force was a reasonable size to take on the angara, which is what it was supposed to do, and it was doing well enough until the events of the game. Ancient and pure lineage just means genetics which the Kett have shown to be able to manipulate at will. Lexi examines a Kett and tells Jaal that there isn't a trace of Angara left in the Kett. A total genetic and biological recreation of their body on every level. They could take a hamster and over time genetically modify it into a pure and ancient Kett lineage. Given rank in the Kett seems to be based on how much of that pure Kett genetics you have this seems to support this.
It makes no sense for "ancient and pure" Kett lines to lead an entire race that is obsessed with integrating new genetic material from other races into their DNA to the point that their entire military and technology is build around that aspect. Particularly when exaltation is a slow labor intensive activity that has a heavy religious overtones to it. The Moshea makes it clear the Kett could use the genetics technology to clone new Kett with a hell of a lot more efficiency then the exaltation process. Worshiping purity while also obsessing over adding new genetic material and launching decades long wars to slowly absorb and exalt new races and add their genetic potential to the Kett as a whole makes 0 sense what so ever.
At this point the only way any of this paradox of complete opposite thoughts make any sense is if the Kett are physically unable to reproduce biologically and require exaltation to reproduce. Otherwise it would be far far far far far far far far easier to kidnap a few hundred or thousand individuals, extract the genetic advantages and integrate it with the Kett DNA and then go in guns blazing to conquer the new area and integrate it into the Kett empire as a slave state.
You've made the conceptual mess worse, actually. The kett prioritize the pure bloodlines, except that they don't? It's a lot easier to assume that natural-born kett are considered superior to exalted kett even if Lexi can't tell the different with science. Kett cultural attitudes toward exaltation aren't founded on science in the first place. It's a religion, and outright not-rational, for what we've seen I don't know where you're trying to go with that. The kett didn't bring many warships to Heleus, and they didn't need many warships in Heleus. This proves precisely nothing about the military capabilities of the kett empire as a whole, except that they believe in economy of force. As for abducting people off the ark, we don't have any data about the relative forces there or how things happened. It\'s not conceptually sound to posit hypothetical facts, point out that they cause a conflict with the game events, and then declare that this is a problem for the game rather than for the assumptions.
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Post by melbella on Nov 28, 2019 2:29:40 GMT
Given that the Kett were already showing signs of issues with the Archon and the 2nd in command is literally willing to let you kill the Archon it makes no sense that he or someone else wouldn't take the time to abduct as many people off the Ark as possible. Most people on the Hyperion were still in stasis pods. The ones who weren't fought back. If the kett won the battle, they'd have a whole ship full of humans on ice they could do whatever they wanted with whenever they got around to it. Just like they were doing with the salarians before Ryder and friends interfered.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Nov 28, 2019 2:47:47 GMT
Given that the Kett were already showing signs of issues with the Archon and the 2nd in command is literally willing to let you kill the Archon it makes no sense that he or someone else wouldn't take the time to abduct as many people off the Ark as possible. Most people on the Hyperion were still in stasis pods. The ones who weren't fought back. If the kett won the battle, they'd have a whole ship full of humans on ice they could do whatever they wanted with whenever they got around to it. Just like they were doing with the salarians before Ryder and friends interfered. Yeah it was the fact tha tth eArchon chose t ofocus on trying to conrtol the Remnant than exalting the cluster that ended with him failing. Just finished my latest playthrough of MEA was fun bringing down the Archon again.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 28, 2019 12:49:59 GMT
Given that the Kett were already showing signs of issues with the Archon and the 2nd in command is literally willing to let you kill the Archon it makes no sense that he or someone else wouldn't take the time to abduct as many people off the Ark as possible. Most people on the Hyperion were still in stasis pods. The ones who weren't fought back. If the kett won the battle, they'd have a whole ship full of humans on ice they could do whatever they wanted with whenever they got around to it. Just like they were doing with the salarians before Ryder and friends interfered.
And they could also have grasped the others that exist on the Nexus given they have shown interest in all of them and their potential.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 28, 2019 14:01:49 GMT
You've made the conceptual mess worse, actually. The kett prioritize the pure bloodlines, except that they don't? It's a lot easier to assume that natural-born kett are considered superior to exalted kett even if Lexi can't tell the different with science. Kett cultural attitudes toward exaltation aren't founded on science in the first place. It's a religion, and outright not-rational, for what we've seen I do not make anything worse then already exists in game. Races that obsess with genetic purity to the point they automatically elevate those of genetically pure lines are complete opposites of the idea of a race that incorporates new genetics into the base DNA to create a perfect being. It is basically the equivalent of an antisemitic Jew. One that screams all the racist conspiracy theories about Jewish people and then heads to Temple and does everything expected out of the Jewish religion.
If they cared that much about genetic purity that the ancient pure Kett lines are automatically the ruling class then they sure as shit wouldn't roam the Andromeda Galaxy genetically splicing useful traits into the Kett DNA and forcibly altering the new races into Kett. Because that basic concept would result in genetic impurities. A race obsessed with genetic purity and the idea that their genetics are perfect would conquer forcibly other races and turn them into thrall or slave races to serve them. They wouldn't elevate and mix their genetics together.
However what we are shown in game are a race that actively seeks out new life and experiments on it to isolate useful genetics to be incorporated into their entire group with said knowledge being sent back to the Kett government and the DNA augmentation being spread across the empire. Who rather then out right warfare take the time and effort to capture beings and spend enormous amount of resources to mutate the different life form into Kett. Including the genetically useful traits from the original race being included. This means the Kett think they are superior specifically because of their vast degree of genetic manipulation turning them into the "perfect" organic life form. Much in the same way the Borg think they are perfect because they absorb the technology of every race assimilated into the collective.
They didn't need many ships because the Angara happen to be still recovering from the devastation from the Scourge. If the Angara had a space fleet and if the Initiative had a space fleet the Kett wouldn't be a threat at all. Particularly because the Kett prioritize taking prisoners over out right destruction which the Angara and Initiative do not.
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Post by 10k on Nov 28, 2019 14:49:52 GMT
Sorry I can't be on the same side as people who think Ryder should be the protagonist that continues the ME series Hell we might as well cut him out the picture and just play as Sam, goodness knows he was the real protagonist in Andromeda.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 28, 2019 23:36:08 GMT
If they cared that much about genetic purity that the ancient pure Kett lines are automatically the ruling class then they sure as shit wouldn't roam the Andromeda Galaxy genetically splicing useful traits into the Kett DNA and forcibly altering the new races into Kett. Because that basic concept would result in genetic impurities.
But impurities don't matter as long as the ancient pure lines are kept pure according to whatever standard the kett feel they need to be kept to. And second-class kett are still better than non-kett. Yep. If the angara were in better shape, the kett would have needed to send more ships. But the angara weren't, so the kett didn't. Edit: of course, the reason for this is to keep the Initiative forces relevant. It's a contrivance, yep. Every Mass Effect plot relies on contrivance.
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Post by griffith82 on Nov 29, 2019 5:11:43 GMT
Long time lurker but just joined the board and now I find it easier to track ongoing discussions. One thing, which I suspected previously but thought isolated, is the level of animosity(?) between the original Trilogy fans and the ME:A folks when it comes to the future of the franchise. The snark and disdain is strong. Thought we were kinda on the same team here but I guess not. Two sets of people trying to influence the direction of a beloved series. Not a rare thing in fandom. I remember the Stargate Universe vs Stargate Atlantis debate was so toxic, one of the creators blamed Atlantis fans for killing Stargate Universe (which was incorrect but hey, emotions and all that lol). I remember that. SGU was imo a good show killed before its time but not because of the SGA fans.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 29, 2019 9:19:01 GMT
I go here rarer and rarer, and that's a downgrade from the old BSN when I was more active, but prior to ME3 I didn't have any incentive to go there at all, to be honest.
I think places like these crawl up with activity when there's genuine fandom to be had and I think over the last 5 years what you've seen is that bitter, unresolved Mass Effect Trilogy fans that weren't ever really fulfilled by ME3 would go to various places on the internet to vent, and alongside that there's been new fans or more lenient fans with the series who have stayed - who have always just been here as "fans" next to those who are also fans but not "fanboys" if you know what I mean, and people that had a strong reaction to the trilogy with a sense it being taken away.
To be upfront, I think over the last 2-3 years the Andromeda fandom has taken over more and more as people who are giving up on Mass Effect are finally trickling out of the active fandom, so the tensions you experience are probably from the remainder of the "old guard" who don't actually give a fuck about MEA but only want to see where the series "went wrong" (ME2 or 3) get course corrected like it's still 2012.
I'm one of the latter, and I know it's not going to happen but I do also love the original games enough that I occasionally go back to them (maybe once a year, but now I'm in active modding for ME3) and then I wanna talk about stuff. Then someone casually brings up specific things from MEA in a topic about MET and I'm rolling my eyes and being like "Oh my God, these losers" jk, but I am super disinterested in the actual canon of MEA, and consider it to have a lesser impact for good sequels than ME1 did, plus I thought it was mediocre, bugs aside, therefore I don't care to speculate about it.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Nov 29, 2019 20:25:31 GMT
If they cared that much about genetic purity that the ancient pure Kett lines are automatically the ruling class then they sure as shit wouldn't roam the Andromeda Galaxy genetically splicing useful traits into the Kett DNA and forcibly altering the new races into Kett. Because that basic concept would result in genetic impurities.
But impurities don't matter as long as the ancient pure lines are kept pure according to whatever standard the kett feel they need to be kept to. And second-class kett are still better than non-kett. Yep. If the angara were in better shape, the kett would have needed to send more ships. But the angara weren't, so the kett didn't. Edit: of course, the reason for this is to keep the Initiative forces relevant. It's a contrivance, yep. Every Mass Effect plot relies on contrivance. You still do not address the inhrent contradiction of worshiping pure DNA while devoting your entire empire to making impure DNA.
What in game evidence do you have that the Kett scouted out the Helus Cluster and then made the choice to only send that amount of ships?
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Post by Serza on Nov 30, 2019 22:29:19 GMT
A house divided...
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 2, 2019 2:32:47 GMT
But impurities don't matter as long as the ancient pure lines are kept pure according to whatever standard the kett feel they need to be kept to. And second-class kett are still better than non-kett. Yep. If the angara were in better shape, the kett would have needed to send more ships. But the angara weren't, so the kett didn't. Edit: of course, the reason for this is to keep the Initiative forces relevant. It's a contrivance, yep. Every Mass Effect plot relies on contrivance. You still do not address the inhrent contradiction of worshiping pure DNA while devoting your entire empire to making impure DNA.
What in game evidence do you have that the Kett scouted out the Helus Cluster and then made the choice to only send that amount of ships?
I don't see any contradiction. Impure kett are still better than non-kett, aren't they? Just because you make them doesn't mean you have to breed them into the pure lines. As for whether the kett did or didn't scout Heleus before the Archon showed up, I didn't take a position because it doesn't matter. Attacking happens entirely at the kett's discretion. Either they know they have enough forces and they can attack, or they know they don't and can wait until they do.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 2, 2019 2:42:10 GMT
Don't know about you guys, but I am having a blast playing Terminator Resistance! 😁
You could definitely say that it's the ending canon of the Terminator franchise (everything after the ending of T4 that is....)
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 2, 2019 3:14:53 GMT
Indeed and seeing as the fandom can't make up tthe idea of wha they want I'd asy tha tBioware are better of sticking to their plan but that's my opinion.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 2, 2019 3:58:09 GMT
You still do not address the inhrent contradiction of worshiping pure DNA while devoting your entire empire to making impure DNA.
What in game evidence do you have that the Kett scouted out the Helus Cluster and then made the choice to only send that amount of ships?
I don't see any contradiction. Impure kett are still better than non-kett, aren't they? Just because you make them doesn't mean you have to breed them into the pure lines. As for whether the kett did or didn't scout Heleus before the Archon showed up, I didn't take a position because it doesn't matter. Attacking happens entirely at the kett's discretion. Either they know they have enough forces and they can attack, or they know they don't and can wait until they do. Again races do not obsess over genetic purity and then try to transfer those genetics into their pure genetic line. Races that hold themselves superior to others do not spend decades slowly absorbing newly discovered races into their culture by rewriting their DNA to become Kett like.
You have been repeating that the Kett knew how many ships to bring several times and now you don't take a position? You have literally been using that position to defend the idea of the Kett not having such total space superiority that they could easily block aid known Angara planets and prevent supplies thus starving out the Resistance.
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Post by shermos on Dec 3, 2019 7:37:38 GMT
Long time lurker but just joined the board and now I find it easier to track ongoing discussions. One thing, which I suspected previously but thought isolated, is the level of animosity(?) between the original Trilogy fans and the ME:A folks when it comes to the future of the franchise. The snark and disdain is strong. Thought we were kinda on the same team here but I guess not.
I agree with those saying it's actually pretty tame here compared to the old official forums. A couple of people get toxic and debate in bad faith, but for the most part it's pretty healthy discussion between dedicated fans with strong views.
The ball is really in Bioware's court at the moment. A lot of their best people left the studio after the EA acquisition and especially since ME3 finished development. I don't know if they'll ever make a game I love or even like again, but I hope they can find a way to deal with their internal problems (along with whatever shit EA might still be throwing at them) and hire new talented people. The alternative is another dead developer buried in the AAA graveyard.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 4, 2019 18:05:44 GMT
Again races do not obsess over genetic purity and then try to transfer those genetics into their pure genetic line. Races that hold themselves superior to others do not spend decades slowly absorbing newly discovered races into their culture by rewriting their DNA to become Kett like. But the kett are maintaining the distinction between pure kett and kett lite. Why not absorb other races? In a situation where Andromeda goes from 1% pure kett and 99% other to 1% pure kett and 99% converted kett, the kett have gained, not lost. Maybe I phrased that badly. I still think they did recon on Heleus. I'm just saying that it doesn't matter whether they did or not, because there's no problem with the narrative either way. Case 1: the kett knew the situation in Heleus, and sent the minimal force needed to accomplish it. They could even have underestimated the difficulty of the project; no reason to assume kett infallibility. Events transpired as we saw them. Case 2: standard kett procedure is to send our fairly large expeditionary forces. The Archon arrives in Heleus. If he finds nothing, he moves on. If he finds a primitive planet or two, they are absorbed. If he finds the angara at the height of their power, or something worse, he scouts out the situation and calls home. Either the Senate sends reinforcements or they put Heleus off for another day. But none of these things happened. Instead, the Archon discovered the angara crippled by the Scourge disaster. In their weakened state, the forces he had were enough to do the job, so he proceeded to attack. Events transpired as we saw them. You seem to be proposing a variant of case 2 where the Archon would simply be an idiot and attack anything he found in Heleus. I don't have a problem with case 2 in itself, but I don't see why we should assume the idiocy.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Dec 4, 2019 18:58:29 GMT
Again races do not obsess over genetic purity and then try to transfer those genetics into their pure genetic line. Races that hold themselves superior to others do not spend decades slowly absorbing newly discovered races into their culture by rewriting their DNA to become Kett like. But the kett are maintaining the distinction between pure kett and kett lite. Why not absorb other races? In a situation where Andromeda goes from 1% pure kett and 99% other to 1% pure kett and 99% converted kett, the kett have gained, not lost. Maybe I phrased that badly. I still think they did recon on Heleus. I'm just saying that it doesn't matter whether they did or not, because there's no problem with the narrative either way. Case 1: the kett knew the situation in Heleus, and sent the minimal force needed to accomplish it. They could even have underestimated the difficulty of the project; no reason to assume kett infallibility. Events transpired as we saw them. Case 2: standard kett procedure is to send our fairly large expeditionary forces. The Archon arrives in Heleus. If he finds nothing, he moves on. If he finds a primitive planet or two, they are absorbed. If he finds the angara at the height of their power, or something worse, he scouts out the situation and calls home. Either the Senate sends reinforcements or they put Heleus off for another day. But none of these things happened. Instead, the Archon discovered the angara crippled by the Scourge disaster. In their weakened state, the forces he had were enough to do the job, so he proceeded to attack. Events transpired as we saw them. You seem to be proposing a variant of case 2 where the Archon would simply be an idiot and attack anything he found in Heleus. I don't have a problem with case 2 in itself, but I don't see why we should assume the idiocy. And again they are not because they get elevated by getting more Kett DNA. Which again is contradictory for a race that thinks of it self as genetically perfect to seek out genetics of other races to incorporate to their DNA. If Pure Kett was superior then they should just breed pure Kett. Or clone them given they have the technology to be able to clone Kett.
The Kett have been waging a 75 year war in Heleus trying to capture all the angara to turn them into Kett. While doing this in a long drawn out religious ceremony that makes no sense for a race that doesn't need to do this. The entire exhalation action only makes sense if it was a reproduction cycle. And this 75 year long war has literally been fought against a group armed with nothing but troop transports and shuttle craft.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2019 19:34:28 GMT
But the kett are maintaining the distinction between pure kett and kett lite. Why not absorb other races? In a situation where Andromeda goes from 1% pure kett and 99% other to 1% pure kett and 99% converted kett, the kett have gained, not lost. Maybe I phrased that badly. I still think they did recon on Heleus. I'm just saying that it doesn't matter whether they did or not, because there's no problem with the narrative either way. Case 1: the kett knew the situation in Heleus, and sent the minimal force needed to accomplish it. They could even have underestimated the difficulty of the project; no reason to assume kett infallibility. Events transpired as we saw them. Case 2: standard kett procedure is to send our fairly large expeditionary forces. The Archon arrives in Heleus. If he finds nothing, he moves on. If he finds a primitive planet or two, they are absorbed. If he finds the angara at the height of their power, or something worse, he scouts out the situation and calls home. Either the Senate sends reinforcements or they put Heleus off for another day. But none of these things happened. Instead, the Archon discovered the angara crippled by the Scourge disaster. In their weakened state, the forces he had were enough to do the job, so he proceeded to attack. Events transpired as we saw them. You seem to be proposing a variant of case 2 where the Archon would simply be an idiot and attack anything he found in Heleus. I don't have a problem with case 2 in itself, but I don't see why we should assume the idiocy. And again they are not because they get elevated by getting more Kett DNA. Which again is contradictory for a race that thinks of it self as genetically perfect to seek out genetics of other races to incorporate to their DNA. If Pure Kett was superior then they should just breed pure Kett. Or clone them given they have the technology to be able to clone Kett.
The Kett have been waging a 75 year war in Heleus trying to capture all the angara to turn them into Kett. While doing this in a long drawn out religious ceremony that makes no sense for a race that doesn't need to do this. The entire exhalation action only makes sense if it was a reproduction cycle. And this 75 year long war has literally been fought against a group armed with nothing but troop transports and shuttle craft.
The kett do not think of themselves as "genetically perfect." The Archon refers to himself as "superior" not "perfect." Furthermore, he sees himself as superior because he is "the inheritor of 1,000 species." To continue to seek to make themselves more superior by assimilating new species is not contradictory to their beliefs.
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Post by skekSil on Dec 4, 2019 23:51:53 GMT
Again races do not obsess over genetic purity and then try to transfer those genetics into their pure genetic line. Races that hold themselves superior to others do not spend decades slowly absorbing newly discovered races into their culture by rewriting their DNA to become Kett like. You seem pretty confident what alien races capable of rewriting own DNA on the fly would or wouldnt do. Perhaps you have enough personal experience with them to make such firm assertions? I for one know only one intelligent species (not alien mind you) and its representatives are capable of holding most bizzare, irrational, illogical, downright self contradictory and simply stupid ideas and then base their entire worldview around them.
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melbella
N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
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Post by melbella on Dec 5, 2019 2:04:18 GMT
The entire exhalation action only makes sense if it was a reproduction cycle. It is just that because, as we learn, the kett themselves are sterile. Where does the game say anything different?
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Sanunes
N6
Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Dec 5, 2019 2:06:06 GMT
Indeed and seeing as the fandom can't make up tthe idea of wha they want I'd asy tha tBioware are better of sticking to their plan but that's my opinion. Its a fair one, for its really a no-win situation for BioWare for no matter what they do or who they try and listen two there are going to be at least two different opinions each contracting with one another. So someone is going to get upset and claim that BioWare is "dead or dying" and then continually complain for years until the next game.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 5, 2019 4:47:18 GMT
The entire exhalation action only makes sense if it was a reproduction cycle. It is just that because, as we learn, the kett themselves are sterile. Where does the game say anything different? Umm... come to think of it, the game's awfully vague about this. For instance, this Codex entry: It's just a guess, and it's not clear why they'd say "genetic stagnation" if they meant "sterility." Come to think of it, what does sterility have to do with anything? The kett can't simultaneously be ahead of the Citadel races in biological science and yet be behind them in cloning, barring some sort of cultural taboo against reproducing that way. (Like the asari prejudice against purebloods?)
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melbella
N6
Trouble-shooting Space Diva
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Post by melbella on Dec 5, 2019 12:25:23 GMT
Come to think of it, what does sterility have to do with anything? The kett can't simultaneously be ahead of the Citadel races in biological science and yet be behind them in cloning, barring some sort of cultural taboo against reproducing that way. (Like the asari prejudice against purebloods?) Maybe they started out cloning and that led to the genetic stagnation? Or, there was some sort of apocalypse and the kett population was reduced to not enough to keep the species alive. Need another game to know more....
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