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Post by themikefest on Mar 30, 2020 18:16:03 GMT
Realistically, if BioWare decided to make Miranda the villain, it would probably play out about the same, only we’d actually have more of a dramatic investment since this is an actual character we’re familiar with without having to read some book. I doubt that. Leng is much stronger than Lawson, so Lawson wouldn't go toe-toe with Shepard. She would use her lackeys to do most of the dirty work, then step in long enough to finish Shepard. Another way is in ME3 Miranda mentions TIM didn't agree with putting a control chip in Shepard, it's put in Miranda. It's possible Shepard could use the power of the voice to get Miranda to loosen up enough for Shepard to knock her out. Take her back to the SR2 where Chakwas removes the chip. After that, Miranda explains what happened after the collectors were dealt with and that TIM headed to the Citadel just before Cronos was attacked.
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 30, 2020 18:42:52 GMT
Cerberus cheerleader, defender, apologist, and close confidante of TIM who at one time wanted to implant a control chip into Shepard suddenly supports Shepard in defiance of TIM's order to preserve the Collector base? I'd call that a 180. Honestly what other choice did she have? To fight Shepard hand-to-hand like Legion? I wasn't aware it was a binary all-or-nothing choice. Did she have to quit TIM altogether to allow Shepard to proceed? Oh, right. In the midst of a galactic-wide threat, she asks Shepard to appropriate unspecified Alliance resources to support her undisclosed objectives. Sure thing, Miranda.
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Post by smilesja on Mar 30, 2020 19:32:50 GMT
How did she get a full 180? Miranda started to pull away in ME2 at the collectors station. She realizes he goes way too far and is disgusted by him. I would have prefered they didn't make her act like she did in ME3 since I would think the first thing she would have done after leaving cerberus would be to head straight to her sister to keep her safe. Cerberus cheerleader, defender, apologist, and close confidante of TIM who at one time wanted to implant a control chip into Shepard suddenly supports Shepard in defiance of TIM's order to preserve the Collector base? I'd call that a 180. I can't address her ME3 behavior. In the bulk of my playthroughs, she doesn't survive ME2. Shep's one-eyed snake can change a woman.
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Post by burningcherry on Mar 30, 2020 20:56:58 GMT
Honestly what other choice did she have? To fight Shepard hand-to-hand like Legion? I wasn't aware it was a binary all-or-nothing choice. Did she have to quit TIM altogether to allow Shepard to proceed? I don't know. Did Shepard have to?
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 30, 2020 22:55:09 GMT
Realistically, if BioWare decided to make Miranda the villain, it would probably play out about the same, only we’d actually have more of a dramatic investment since this is an actual character we’re familiar with without having to read some book. I doubt that. Leng is much stronger than Lawson, so Lawson wouldn't go toe-toe with Shepard. She would use her lackeys to do most of the dirty work, then step in long enough to finish Shepard. Another way is in ME3 Miranda mentions TIM didn't agree with putting a control chip in Shepard, it's put in Miranda. It's possible Shepard could use the power of the voice to get Miranda to loosen up enough for Shepard to knock her out. Take her back to the SR2 where Chakwas removes the chip. After that, Miranda explains what happened after the collectors were dealt with and that TIM headed to the Citadel just before Cronos was attacked. I’m not sure if that really matters. The writers would probably make whatever changes they need to make the character suit the plot. I don’t know or care about what Leng was in the book, but it’s a fair bet that Miranda could be augmented between the events of ME2 and 3 to fit the same role as a super-Phantom. Either way, the plot would force Shepard to fail to catch whichever antagonist up until the very end. Whether she uses henchmen or does it herself doesn’t really make a difference. But that’s not really important. The important thing is that this is a character we know and presumably would care more about than rando space ninja guy.
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 30, 2020 23:30:58 GMT
I wasn't aware it was a binary all-or-nothing choice. Did she have to quit TIM altogether to allow Shepard to proceed? I don't know. Did Shepard have to? I've no idea what you're asking or trying to say here. Your previous reply assumed that Miranda had to either betray/quit TIM or fight Shepard. Like TIM's previously unexpressed interest in preserving the Collector base was some ultimate test that required her to choose sides.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Mar 31, 2020 1:12:54 GMT
I don't know. Did Shepard have to? I've no idea what you're asking or trying to say here. Your previous reply assumed that Miranda had to either betray/quit TIM or fight Shepard. Like TIM's previously unexpressed interest in preserving the Collector base was some ultimate test that required her to choose sides. I think they’re asking if Shepard had to quit. If so: If you destroy the base, you quit Cerberus. If you keep the base, TIM dismisses you as no longer needed.
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 31, 2020 5:25:57 GMT
I've no idea what you're asking or trying to say here. Your previous reply assumed that Miranda had to either betray/quit TIM or fight Shepard. Like TIM's previously unexpressed interest in preserving the Collector base was some ultimate test that required her to choose sides. I think they’re asking if Shepard had to quit. If so: If you destroy the base, you quit Cerberus. If you keep the base, TIM dismisses you as no longer needed. I appreciate your attempt, but I'm still not sure what's going on here. Shepard was never going to work with TIM/Cerberus long-term. It was a one-time specific gig to stop the Collectors, after which Shep turned the SR-2 and herself over to the Alliance. Miranda, OTOH, was a full-on Cerberus asset - but she was under Shep's command at the Collector base. She had nothing to do with planting that bomb, it was all Shep. All she ever needed to do was... nothing, really. It wasn't her place to interfere, the disagreement was between TIM and Shep. I don't see any reason why she couldn't have continued as a Cerberus asset, but she quit.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 31, 2020 12:15:35 GMT
I think they’re asking if Shepard had to quit. If so: If you destroy the base, you quit Cerberus. If you keep the base, TIM dismisses you as no longer needed. I appreciate your attempt, but I'm still not sure what's going on here. Shepard was never going to work with TIM/Cerberus long-term. It was a one-time specific gig to stop the Collectors, after which Shep turned the SR-2 and herself over to the Alliance. Miranda, OTOH, was a full-on Cerberus asset - but she was under Shep's command at the Collector base. She had nothing to do with planting that bomb, it was all Shep. All she ever needed to do was... nothing, really. It wasn't her place to interfere, the disagreement was between TIM and Shep. I don't see any reason why she couldn't have continued as a Cerberus asset, but she quit. If she was there during the decision TIM tells her to stop shepard from destroying the base.
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Post by themikefest on Mar 31, 2020 13:00:09 GMT
All she ever needed to do was... nothing, really. It wasn't her place to interfere, the disagreement was between TIM and Shep. I don't see any reason why she couldn't have continued as a Cerberus asset, but she quit. By her not doing anything, TIM would take that as a way she no longer is fit to work for Cerberus. He's not a fan of people not doing what he tells them to do. He did order Lawson to stop Shepard. Even if she were to go back, TIM would likey have her eliminated. Taking care of loose ends like what was happening with the ex-Cerberus scientists.
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Post by Polka Dot on Mar 31, 2020 15:29:03 GMT
I appreciate your attempt, but I'm still not sure what's going on here. Shepard was never going to work with TIM/Cerberus long-term. It was a one-time specific gig to stop the Collectors, after which Shep turned the SR-2 and herself over to the Alliance. Miranda, OTOH, was a full-on Cerberus asset - but she was under Shep's command at the Collector base. She had nothing to do with planting that bomb, it was all Shep. All she ever needed to do was... nothing, really. It wasn't her place to interfere, the disagreement was between TIM and Shep. I don't see any reason why she couldn't have continued as a Cerberus asset, but she quit. If she was there during the decision TIM tells her to stop shepard from destroying the base. Okay, but did that have to mean "fight Shep until s/he relents or one of you is dead?" That would be outright mutiny, and I'm hard-pressed to believe the other squadmates would have stood by and accepted Miranda as their new captain. I think it much more likely that TIM wanted Miranda to try to convince Shep not to blow the base, and they didn't have much time as the bomb was already set. Failing would not necessarily have meant the end for Miranda. TIM kept Kai Leng around, after all.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 1, 2020 8:52:11 GMT
I've no idea what you're asking or trying to say here. Your previous reply assumed that Miranda had to either betray/quit TIM or fight Shepard. Like TIM's previously unexpressed interest in preserving the Collector base was some ultimate test that required her to choose sides. I think they’re asking if Shepard had to quit. If so: If you destroy the base, you quit Cerberus. If you keep the base, TIM dismisses you as no longer needed. I don’t think quitting is even really something to truly debate. Regardless of players’ wishes, it was clear from the onset that Shepard’s relationship with Cerberus would be temporary.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 1, 2020 8:55:43 GMT
All she ever needed to do was... nothing, really. It wasn't her place to interfere, the disagreement was between TIM and Shep. I don't see any reason why she couldn't have continued as a Cerberus asset, but she quit. By her not doing anything, TIM would take that as a way she no longer is fit to work for Cerberus. He's not a fan of people not doing what he tells them to do. He did order Lawson to stop Shepard. Even if she were to go back, TIM would likey have her eliminated. Taking care of loose ends like what was happening with the ex-Cerberus scientists. Timmy boy would be pretty dumb to eliminate Miranda for failing to commit suicide by challenging Shepard to a 2v1 death match in the Collector base, if it was to come down to doing more than just trying to talk Shepard out of blowing the base. Anyone with a modicum of sense would see that if convincing Shepard is a dead end, then other steps might be better taken to work against Shepard through some other means, in which case Miranda might actually be useful with the right resources, of which dude has an embarrassment of riches of.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 14, 2020 11:27:41 GMT
Cerberus cheerleader, defender, apologist, and close confidante of TIM who at one time wanted to implant a control chip into Shepard suddenly supports Shepard in defiance of TIM's order to preserve the Collector base? I'd call that a 180. I can't address her ME3 behavior. In the bulk of my playthroughs, she doesn't survive ME2. Shep's one-eyed snake can change a woman. In a way you actually could be right smiles in that in a way through Shep Miranda saw the real Cerberus. Hence why she goes along with Shep's plan to desrtoy the base and decides to leave Cerberus at the end of ME2. I think prior to working withShep she go tblinded by the work she was doing as she was one of TIM's top officers at the time. Similarly with Dr Cole as well in ME3 when she joins up with Jacob
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 14, 2020 11:31:35 GMT
I think they’re asking if Shepard had to quit. If so: If you destroy the base, you quit Cerberus. If you keep the base, TIM dismisses you as no longer needed. I don’t think quitting is even really something to truly debate. Regardless of players’ wishes, it was clear from the onset that Shepard’s relationship with Cerberus would be temporary. Yeah it was always only going to be a temporary alliance as Shep already knew what Cerberus was in reality. They only agree to joinup due to them both having a common enemy.
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Post by Polka Dot on Apr 14, 2020 17:07:33 GMT
I don’t think quitting is even really something to truly debate. Regardless of players’ wishes, it was clear from the onset that Shepard’s relationship with Cerberus would be temporary. Yeah it was always only going to be a temporary alliance as Shep already knew what Cerberus was in reality. They only agree to joinup due to them both having a common enemy. Well, that and the fact that BioWare handed the Council, the Alliance, every other species, and most of Shep's former squadmates the "we have better things to do than pursue the reapers" ball in order to set up the idiotic premise that was ME2.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 14, 2020 17:40:07 GMT
Yeah it was always only going to be a temporary alliance as Shep already knew what Cerberus was in reality. They only agree to joinup due to them both having a common enemy. Well, that and the fact that BioWare handed the Council, the Alliance, every other species, and most of Shep's former squadmates the "we have better things to do than pursue the reapers" ball in order to set up the idiotic premise that was ME2. Well technically they thought Shep was dead so weren't looking for them. So because of tha tboth their Spectre and Alliance clearances would have been cancelled. So I don't thinkl it was just as simple as we hav better thing to do to be fair.At least by temporarily joining Cerberus Shep could at least get back int othe action and deal with the Collectors while the Alliance could get more organized
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Post by Polka Dot on Apr 14, 2020 18:12:38 GMT
Well, that and the fact that BioWare handed the Council, the Alliance, every other species, and most of Shep's former squadmates the "we have better things to do than pursue the reapers" ball in order to set up the idiotic premise that was ME2. Well technically they thought Shep was dead so weren't looking for them. So because of tha tboth their Spectre and Alliance clearances would have been cancelled. Okay, but how/why did that relieve the Council, Alliance, etc. of any sort of responsibility to continue pursuing any reaper-related leads? Did the Council not have any other Spectres in the field? Did the Alliance have no other ships or marines to assign? Did the other species involved with Sovereign's defeat not have any other assets they could have assigned to some sort of task force to follow-up with the reaper plot? I think you missed my point. In order to enable their premise for ME2 - Shep working with Cerberus and recruiting an entirely different team - they had to disable every other organization (and individual) from taking any action whatsoever.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 14, 2020 18:34:08 GMT
The council believed Sovereign to be Geth tech remember? They never mind melded with Shep so never saw their visions. Vigil wasn't functoinal after yo spoke with it when they supposedl ywent back to check. So it sounds like when the y;looked into it they found no evidenc eto prove that Shep was telling the truth. There were som etha tbelieved Shep but obviously not enough to convince the council to take steps.
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Post by burningcherry on Apr 14, 2020 18:50:41 GMT
Well technically they thought Shep was dead so weren't looking for them. So because of tha tboth their Spectre and Alliance clearances would have been cancelled. Okay, but how/why did that relieve the Council, Alliance, etc. of any sort of responsibility to continue pursuing any reaper-related leads? Did the Council not have any other Spectres in the field? Did the Alliance have no other ships or marines to assign? Did the other species involved with Sovereign's defeat not have any other assets they could have assigned to some sort of task force to follow-up with the reaper plot? I think you missed my point. In order to enable their premise for ME2 - Shep working with Cerberus and recruiting an entirely different team - they had to disable every other organization (and individual) from taking any action whatsoever. I've heard many times that the "original" idea, supposedly based on Bioware posts from older forums, was that the orthodox geth revive Shepard and then he works with them. Is that true?
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Post by Polka Dot on Apr 14, 2020 18:53:56 GMT
The council believed Sovereign to be Geth tech remember? Just a reminder: the Council members are fictional. They "believe" whatever BioWare writes them to believe. ... because BioWare wrote it that way to disable Council support of Shep's ongoing pursuit of the reapers. They could have written it so that investigators would find a fully functional Vigil. They could also write the Council to give Shep the benefit of the doubt, and be willing to devote at least some resources to Shep's pursuit of the reapers. According to the display in the Citadel DLC, the Council may have actually believed that Sovereign was a reaper... They didn't do any of that, though. Instead, BioWare wrote all of these other organizations and individuals to completely drop the reaper plot so that 2 years later, when Shep's corpse had been reanimated by Cerberus, Shep would work with Cerberus.
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Post by Polka Dot on Apr 14, 2020 19:11:53 GMT
Okay, but how/why did that relieve the Council, Alliance, etc. of any sort of responsibility to continue pursuing any reaper-related leads? Did the Council not have any other Spectres in the field? Did the Alliance have no other ships or marines to assign? Did the other species involved with Sovereign's defeat not have any other assets they could have assigned to some sort of task force to follow-up with the reaper plot? I think you missed my point. In order to enable their premise for ME2 - Shep working with Cerberus and recruiting an entirely different team - they had to disable every other organization (and individual) from taking any action whatsoever. I've heard many times that the "original" idea, supposedly based on Bioware posts from older forums, was that the orthodox geth revive Shepard and then he works with them. Is that true? I'm not the right person to ask about that, as I have no knowledge of it. Perhaps someone else will come along who can answer.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 14, 2020 20:05:57 GMT
The council believed Sovereign to be Geth tech remember? Just a reminder: the Council members are fictional. They "believe" whatever BioWare writes them to believe. ... because BioWare wrote it that way to disable Council support of Shep's ongoing pursuit of the reapers. They could have written it so that investigators would find a fully functional Vigil. They could also write the Council to give Shep the benefit of the doubt, and be willing to devote at least some resources to Shep's pursuit of the reapers. According to the display in the Citadel DLC, the Council may have actually believed that Sovereign was a reaper... They didn't do any of that, though. Instead, BioWare wrote all of these other organizations and individuals to completely drop the reaper plot so that 2 years later, when Shep's corpse had been reanimated by Cerberus, Shep would work with Cerberus. Yeah bu tthey also wrote tha tShep dies at the beginning of the gam eto so it wsa always planned for the drama.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 15, 2020 7:32:39 GMT
The council believed Sovereign to be Geth tech remember? They never mind melded with Shep so never saw their visions. Vigil wasn't functoinal after yo spoke with it when they supposedl ywent back to check. So it sounds like when the y;looked into it they found no evidenc eto prove that Shep was telling the truth. There were som etha tbelieved Shep but obviously not enough to convince the council to take steps. In retrospect, it’s kind of funny that the Council sat on their haunches thinking that this being geth technology somehow makes it less serious. Consider, if the geth had the capability to build a ship like Sovereign, something that decimated the Citadel and Alliance ships practically by itself, it stands to reason that they may have more laying in wait beyond the Perseus Veil and could at any time strike while the Alliance is rebuilding and the Citadel is undergoing restoration. Sure, they’d be mobilizing against the wrong target in the end, but they didn’t seem to think anything more was going to happen for really no good reason at all.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 15, 2020 7:51:46 GMT
We know the Council knew that Sovereign was a Reaper and that them saying it was a Geth ship was to prevent mass panic. This is shown in the Citadel DLC when the Sovereign archive starts playing that until it recognizes your SPECTRE status. So I think they were making some preparations. AS for not telling Shepard that in ME2, remember Shepard was with Cerberus so they didn't want them knowing what they were up to.
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