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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 9, 2020 14:42:38 GMT
But putting all that aside (which we shouldn't, these are all huge red flags), his behaviour re: Mark's departure was incredibly unprofessional, and he has been unprofessional BEFORE, like spilling shit about DAI when he was still under an NDA. BioWare had significant grounds for cutting ties with him long before this incident. As far as I can see, the only "Greg Ellis problem" is that BioWare ever hired him in the first place. Luckily, it's an easy fix. Anyone remember when it was claimed he couldn't reprise the role of Anders in DA2 due to unspecified "shenanigans" that prevented him from taking on a larger role?
In retrospect, it makes me wonder if it wasn't a scheduling conflict or concern that him voicing two characters (Anders and Cullen), but that there might have been some kind of conflict behind the scenes and they weren't willing to give him the more prominent role of Anders? Obviously Cullen's popularity in the fandom was one of the primary reasons he got brought back again and again, but it makes me wonder if the Bioware devs were less thrilled about that than we were?
It's possible. But you'd think they wouldn't have brought him back for DAI in that case (unless he seemed to clean up his act temporarily, which is possible). I have personal experience of organisations sweeping workplace bullying/bigotry under the rug by, say, moving the victims to different departments, rather than deal with the actual source of the problem, but Greg Ellis isn't a permanent, full-time employee, he's essentially a contractor, and I never heard any Cullen fan single out Ellis's voicework as their reason for liking the character. I bet they could've replaced him with almost anyone else who can do generic Received Pronunciation/Queen's English and most of the fans would have been none the wiser.
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Post by parsival on Dec 9, 2020 15:06:13 GMT
I'd much prefer it if one's political views were irrelevant to whether voice actors were hired or not. Greg Ellis and Felicia Day (for example) are quite vocal on twitter about their political beliefs, which seem to be poles apart. They are both, however, perfectly good voice actors (in my view). Whether they are good at their jobs is what should matter. I loathe 'cancel' culture and am a bit of a free speech fanatic.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 9, 2020 15:09:20 GMT
I'd much prefer it if one's political views were irrelevant to whether voice actors were hired or not. Greg Ellis and Felicia Day (for example) are quite vocal on twitter about their political beliefs, which seem to be poles apart. They are both, however, perfectly good voice actors (in my view). Whether they are good at their jobs is what should matter. I loathe 'cancel' culture and am a bit of a free speech fanatic. 👆 This. A jobs a job, political beliefs should stay outside the workspace.
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Post by Solas on Dec 9, 2020 15:23:50 GMT
Political beliefs and views and such aside he has in the past violated his DAI NDA, deliberately hinted that he was in DA4 in order to self-promote/gain social media followers and get attention and capitalize on the Cullenite base when he wasn't, and deliberately hinted that he had an upcoming DA announcement to make in a similar vein when he did not (both of these last are deliberately misleading and something which devs on Twitter expressed confusion over before).
Now he's been attacking Darrah and the company on social media, spreading falsehoods about Darrah's retirement and making it about himself (maybe we'll find out Darrah left because of disagreements with EA over the direction of the game or something, in a Jason Schreier article sometime, but none of that has anything to do with Greg Ellis), misusing company intellectual property for self-promotion and to express his political views and to draw out his personal problem with Darrah/the company (that's something they've said he can get in legal trouble for and he's already been told to take it down, evidently), and yes, acting in such a way as to contravene BioWare's clearly-stated values (and expressing views which contravene some of them. Agree with them or not but it is what it is).
It's about professionalism and acceptable professional conduct. None of that is it even if the last part about BW values had never happened.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 9, 2020 15:30:25 GMT
Okay, so Greg Ellis just gets to say whatever disgusting shit he wants, publicly, without repercussion. And single mothers and same-sex parents should just suck it up and rub shoulders with someone who thinks their existence is a blight on society. And employers shouldn't even consider the safety and emotional wellbeing of their minority employees, because that would be "politics", right?
How very convenient that these ideals allow shitty white men to get away with saying shitty things, and make life and work harder for everyone else.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 9, 2020 15:30:54 GMT
I'd much prefer it if one's political views were irrelevant to whether voice actors were hired or not. Greg Ellis and Felicia Day (for example) are quite vocal on twitter about their political beliefs, which seem to be poles apart. They are both, however, perfectly good voice actors (in my view). Whether they are good at their jobs is what should matter. I loathe 'cancel' culture and am a bit of a free speech fanatic. The issue with this is that, as far as we know, there’s no ‘cancel’ going on, as we have no clue about Cullen’s presence in the game, which seems unlikely anyways. All of this started when Ellis tweeted about DA4, hinting about Cullen, which lead people to ask devs about it. Darrah didn’t mention Ellis, although given his views, his post did trigger Ellis, as he suspected that he wouldn’t be called for the game. His response after Darrah’s departure was unprofessional, regardless of free spech. Even if we discount his views being opposite to many BioWare devs,it is clear from current and past BioWare devs that Darrah is beloved in the team, and Ellis’ words would’ve likely prevented him to be hired regardless. I don’t see the problem in not hiring someone that went after a former colleague of yours. If Cullen won’t be in the game (and many already thought he won’t be in), this whole mess was cause by Ellis alone, as he tried to promote himself with the DA brand. Had he not hinted at Cullen’s presence (which it’s clear he had no clue either way; and if he did, he was violating an NDA, as he appears to have done in the past), none of this would’ve happened.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 9, 2020 15:45:02 GMT
There's definitely no "cancelling" going on, because getting cancelled isn't a real thing. People declining to work with you and audiences losing interest in you because you said or did something shitty is just the free market at work.
Hell, Ellis might even be *trying* to get "cancelled". For straight white men, "getting cancelled" means getting a six-figure advance to write a book about how the 'censorship' of your shitty, wrong-headed opinions is a symptom of the decline of traditional values, and appearing on right-wing talk shows to spread misinformation about gay marriage and abortion.
Given his mediocre acting career up to now, Ellis stands to potentially become more famous and successful post-"cancellation" than he ever was before. >_>
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 9, 2020 15:55:42 GMT
There's definitely no "cancelling" going on, because getting cancelled isn't a real thing. People declining to work with you and audiences losing interest in you because you said or did something shitty is just the free market at work. Hell, Ellis might even be *trying* to get "cancelled". For straight white men, "getting cancelled" means getting a six-figure advance to write a book about how the 'censorship' of your shitty, wrong-headed opinions is a symptom of the decline of traditional values, and appearing on right-wing talk shows to spread misinformation about gay marriage and abortion. Given his mediocre acting career up to now, Ellis stands to potentially become more famous and successful post-"cancellation" than he ever was before. I kind of thought it was weird how this whole thing went on the last few months. I mean, it’s possible that he was entirely clueless about it, but it’s not like Bioware’s views, or at least the ones from more prominent devs, were a secret. And again, there was no indication of Cullen being a returning character, that’s why people reacted the way they did at his tweet. I guess it’s possible that he wanted all of this to happen.
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PSN: LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Dec 9, 2020 16:08:52 GMT
I'd much prefer it if one's political views were irrelevant to whether voice actors were hired or not. Greg Ellis and Felicia Day (for example) are quite vocal on twitter about their political beliefs, which seem to be poles apart. They are both, however, perfectly good voice actors (in my view). Whether they are good at their jobs is what should matter. I loathe 'cancel' culture and am a bit of a free speech fanatic. 👆 This. A jobs a job, political beliefs should stay outside the workspace. So should private facebook posts, but people need to be cautious as to what they say and how they say it. At the end of the day, the crucial difference between Day and Ellis is that Day, to my knowledge, never attacked a former employer like Ellis did. Frankly, Ellis dug his own grave, and BioWare or any company should take note of the behavior.
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Post by witchcocktor on Dec 9, 2020 16:15:32 GMT
Ellis' opinions are barely even that radical from what I've read and heard, but it's funny he is all about '' civil discourse and discussion '' and '' not going after people, but debating their ideas '' when he doesn't really seem to follow those guidelines himself. And then he criticizes how '' victimhood is currency in the modern world '' but loves to revel in victimhood himself.
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Dec 9, 2020 16:20:50 GMT
Anyone remember when it was claimed he couldn't reprise the role of Anders in DA2 due to unspecified "shenanigans" that prevented him from taking on a larger role?
In retrospect, it makes me wonder if it wasn't a scheduling conflict or concern that him voicing two characters (Anders and Cullen), but that there might have been some kind of conflict behind the scenes and they weren't willing to give him the more prominent role of Anders? Obviously Cullen's popularity in the fandom was one of the primary reasons he got brought back again and again, but it makes me wonder if the Bioware devs were less thrilled about that than we were?
You mean this David Gaider quote from the old BSN: "I do actually have a lot of say in voice actors, but in this case it was out of our control. Shenanigans meant we could only have Greg Ellis for a smaller role-- so Cullen it was. It didn't bother me on the whole, as I like Cullen and having both characters present was going to be an issue no matter what, but in this case it's simply how the cookie crumbled."
I believe that there had a scheduling conflict because back then he was involved in the fourth Pirates of the Caribbean movie. His role was by the way Theodore Groves and for this franchise we don´t to discuss this because Groves is dead and i assume they also made a (soft?) Reboot without Johnny Deep.
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Post by mugwump on Dec 9, 2020 16:36:49 GMT
Okay, so Greg Ellis just gets to say whatever disgusting shit he wants, publicly, without repercussion. What disgusting things has Greg been saying exactly?
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 9, 2020 17:11:55 GMT
👆 This. A jobs a job, political beliefs should stay outside the workspace. So should private facebook posts, but people need to be cautious as to what they say and how they say it. At the end of the day, the crucial difference between Day and Ellis is that Day, to my knowledge, never attacked a former employer like Ellis did. Frankly, Ellis dug his own grave, and BioWare or any company should take note of the behavior. Ugh, Facebook, the website that should not exist.
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Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Dec 9, 2020 18:20:00 GMT
So should private facebook posts, but people need to be cautious as to what they say and how they say it. At the end of the day, the crucial difference between Day and Ellis is that Day, to my knowledge, never attacked a former employer like Ellis did. Frankly, Ellis dug his own grave, and BioWare or any company should take note of the behavior. Ugh, Facebook, the website that should not exist. And yet, it's not going anywhere.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 9, 2020 18:21:59 GMT
Ugh, Facebook, the website that should not exist. And yet, it's not going anywhere. Then it can stay right over there, as far away from me as possible.
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Post by turianlannister on Dec 9, 2020 19:38:36 GMT
Just recast the role to someone else, and let the bigot stew in his filth.
Whoa, bigot? What did I miss?
He's racist, transphobic and has doxxed a fan in the past and encouraged his followers to go after her, resulting in people calling her place of work to send her death threats Like how Manu Intiraymi attacked another Star Trek actor on twitter and his character ended up being recast and killed off on Picard Which only annoyed Trek fans because of petty and meanspirited it came across as.
No-one defends Manu's actions, nor would anyone consider Icheb to be a fan-favourite character from Voyager, but was it really worth bringing back the character just to drop a bus on him because of his actor's transgressions? They could have easily not brought him back at all and given Seven a better plot that didn't have her go all John Wick after his death.
Same thing is true of the Two and a Half Men finale where they resurrected Charlie Sheen's character and had him appear from behind (played by a body double), only to drop a piano on him and cut to Chuck Lorre saying "Winning". Obviously, Charlie Sheen was a complete nightmare to work with, but it didn't exactly look any less childish of the producers for having sunk to his level with that stunt.
It'd be far better to simply leave Cullen out of future games (not that he needs to appear anyway), rather than recast him or kill him off simply because they're squabbling with Ellis.
Many Trek fans also didn't care about what happened to Icheb, my only takeaway was that it was hilarious watching Manu meltdown on twitter and facebook after the episode aired
Aye, it is certainly overused in our day and age. And even though that doesn't mean bigots are gone... It does mean that a proof should be required before calling a man such. Or a woman, as the case may be...
That's the flip side to freedom of speech, you can't be the good without the bad. Otherwise it's no longer freedom of speech. The US version of freedom of speech only means the government can't arrest you for your views, it doesn't mean freedom from consequences like other people criticising you for your views. It also doesn't mean that private social media companies have to give you a platform, like Graham Linehan and Milo Yiannopoulos found out when they were perma booted from twitter.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Dec 9, 2020 19:40:57 GMT
Whoa, bigot? What did I miss?
He's racist, transphobic and has doxxed a fan in the past and encouraged his followers to go after her, resulting in people calling her place of work to send her death threats Which only annoyed Trek fans because of petty and meanspirited it came across as.
No-one defends Manu's actions, nor would anyone consider Icheb to be a fan-favourite character from Voyager, but was it really worth bringing back the character just to drop a bus on him because of his actor's transgressions? They could have easily not brought him back at all and given Seven a better plot that didn't have her go all John Wick after his death.
Same thing is true of the Two and a Half Men finale where they resurrected Charlie Sheen's character and had him appear from behind (played by a body double), only to drop a piano on him and cut to Chuck Lorre saying "Winning". Obviously, Charlie Sheen was a complete nightmare to work with, but it didn't exactly look any less childish of the producers for having sunk to his level with that stunt.
It'd be far better to simply leave Cullen out of future games (not that he needs to appear anyway), rather than recast him or kill him off simply because they're squabbling with Ellis.
Many Trek fans also didn't care about what happened to Icheb, my only takeaway was that it was hilarious watching Manu meltdown on twitter and facebook after the episode aired That's the flip side to freedom of speech, you can't be the good without the bad. Otherwise it's no longer freedom of speech. The US version of freedom of speech only means the government can't arrest you for your views, it doesn't mean freedom from consequences like other people criticising you for your views. It also doesn't mean that private social media companies have to give you a platform, like Graham Linehan and Milo Yiannopoulos found out when they were perma booted from twitter. I live in the UK so whatever happens in the US doesn't matter to me.
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Post by Highwayman667 on Dec 9, 2020 20:22:53 GMT
Leaving Greg Ellis and his apparent determination to torpedo his own career aside, I don't think Cullen was coming back for DA4 anyway. He's been in three games, and his story comes to one conclusion or another by the end of Inquisition. If we're going to hang out with a Templar, I'd rather it be a Tevinter one this time around. That said, if they do need Cullen back for some reason I nominate Adam Howden to replace him again. I agree with this bit. We've probably had enough Cullen for a lifetime. At least where I'm concerned
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Post by pessimistpanda on Dec 9, 2020 22:00:12 GMT
Okay, so Greg Ellis just gets to say whatever disgusting shit he wants, publicly, without repercussion. What disgusting things has Greg been saying exactly? Well, if you had read anything else I posted in this thread, you'd know about his blog, where he repeatedly says that the #metoo movement is a scam to ruin men for financial gain, and also that feminism is ruining society by taking children away from their fathers, and that if your family doesn't fit the model of the traditional nuclear family with a mother and a father, then you're being raised wrong. That's all bad enough, in my opinion, and I wouldn't associate with anyone who thinks it's fine. But if you'd actually read the post you've *quoted*, you'd know that I'm not actually accusing Greg Ellis of saying anything in that instance. I'm saying that stupid, naive, privileged drivel about "keeping politics out of the workplace" allows ANYONE to publicly say sexist or other bigoted things without consequence, while the people whose lives they endanger with their ignorance and hate are forced to bite their tongues. Greg Ellis is merely an example to make the point. I have no doubt that his terrible opinions make many women who've had to work with him uncomfortable.
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Post by mugwump on Dec 9, 2020 22:36:06 GMT
What disgusting things has Greg been saying exactly? Well, if you had read anything else I posted in this thread, you'd know about his blog, where he repeatedly says that the #metoo movement is a scam to ruin men for financial gain, and also that feminism is ruining society by taking children away from their fathers, and that if your family doesn't fit the model of the traditional nuclear family with a mother and a father, then you're being raised wrong. That's all bad enough, in my opinion, and I wouldn't associate with anyone who thinks it's fine. But if you'd actually read the post you've *quoted*, you'd know that I'm not actually accusing Greg Ellis of saying anything in that instance. I'm saying that stupid, naive, privileged drivel about "keeping politics out of the workplace" allows ANYONE to publicly say sexist or other bigoted things without consequence, while the people whose lives they endanger with their ignorance and hate are forced to bite their tongues. Greg Ellis is merely an example to make the point. I have no doubt that his terrible opinions make many women who've had to work with him uncomfortable. I missed your earlier posts Panda and don't share Greg's views with regards any of the above, but view them as being less disgusting than I do the embarrassing ramblings of a disaffected, possibly unwell, man. As for the rest of your post, I've no doubt that the overblown reactions of those who would characterise Greg's views as being especially dangerous, whilst responding in kind, are in no small part responsible for making it true. Honestly, I think we'd all be better off if both sides just packed it in.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 9, 2020 23:30:49 GMT
if your family doesn't fit the model of the traditional nuclear family with a mother and a father, then you're being raised wrong. There's certain psychological benefits to that, but unfortunately, life isn't perfect, so we all make do with what we have. And the single parents that do a fantastic job at it, that's power to them. It's not easy being a parent, much less a single one.
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Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Beerfish
XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
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Post by Beerfish on Dec 10, 2020 18:49:16 GMT
Okay the perfect way to get rid of Cullen is a scene where he is wearing that awful coat with feathers on the shoulders, suddenly a Griffon SWOOPS down and grabs him and flies off. Thus getting rid of Cullen and reintroducing rideable griffons in one fell swoop.
Am I a genius or what?
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Post by turianlannister on Dec 10, 2020 19:32:54 GMT
Okay the perfect way to get rid of Cullen is a scene where he is wearing that awful coat with feathers on the shoulders, suddenly a Griffon SWOOPS down and grabs him and flies off. Thus getting rid of Cullen and reintroducing rideable griffons in one fell swoop. Am I a genius or what? Speaking of Cullen's coat, someone made a mod that made his coat look like one of Macklemore's outfits
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Post by phoray on Dec 12, 2020 3:24:48 GMT
They are both, however, perfectly good voice actors When does Felicia Day ever not sound like Felicia Day? o_O
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 12, 2020 5:10:27 GMT
They are both, however, perfectly good voice actors When does Felicia Day ever not sound like Felicia Day? o_O If you have a normal voice that’s in demand, use it. Nolan North is a great voice actor and he himself will say about 80% of his career is just using his regular voice. And regular actors use their normal voice all the time but are still good.
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