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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2020 20:40:58 GMT
They continue to do this because there's no severe penalty or consequence, besides some games flopping. The market continues to be open for abuse. It doesn't fly with me. ME3MP is one of the greatest gaming experiences I had in my life. A perfect storm, that BW couldn't replicate since then. It's interesting (and telling) that BW totally screwed the story (their previous strength), and totally nailed the gameplay (their previous weakness). The games don't technically flop as even with good games almost all sales are in the first week or so. So as long as your lie gets people to buy in the first weak plummeting sales don't hurt you that much, as all sales plummet theirs just a bit more dramatically. If people had memoirs and said fuck those guys next game then there may be a change. People don't though. And that's what keeps me away. Their investment is almost guaranteed, despite the product's quality. And any criticism can be buried as "entitlement". It's a bad practice reinforced by the industry and by consumers (a significant portion of them, at least).
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 28, 2020 21:43:54 GMT
The games don't technically flop as even with good games almost all sales are in the first week or so. So as long as your lie gets people to buy in the first weak plummeting sales don't hurt you that much, as all sales plummet theirs just a bit more dramatically. If people had memoirs and said fuck those guys next game then there may be a change. People don't though. While all games at the AAA segment get good initial sales, due to the marketing hype machine, that number can go down. There is such a thing as diminishing returns. I think ME3 -> MEA is proof of that. Piss off enough people and sales will go down. And it's fine to like what you made, as a developer, or even as a customer, but that doesn't mean everyone is up for your cup of tea. What is a good idea for one person, might be a bad idea for 10 people. And, fortunately, or unfortunately, Bioware operates at a level where pissing off 10 people to keep the one, is not a good business practice.
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Post by Spectr61 on Dec 28, 2020 21:47:18 GMT
This. Failing is fine, denying isn't. Neither is a lack of accountability for both. This. "We fucked up, sorry" goes a long way if you are sincere. It wasn't the case. "Entitlement" and "artistic vision" were the excuses for ME3. And it worked! People still defend BW/EA actions, even after MEA and Anthem. www.bbc.com/culture/article/20200213-from-sonic-the-hedgehog-to-star-wars-are-fans-too-entitledBoth recent cases of mediocre products being rebutted by the fans. Sonic's case: "we're sorry, we fucked up". Star Wars' case: "entitled fans", "artistic integrity". No argument from me on this. Nor arguing the wisdom of P.T. Barnum and the quote some attribute to him on "suckers & minutes"
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Post by ahglock on Dec 28, 2020 21:55:37 GMT
The games don't technically flop as even with good games almost all sales are in the first week or so. So as long as your lie gets people to buy in the first weak plummeting sales don't hurt you that much, as all sales plummet theirs just a bit more dramatically. If people had memoirs and said fuck those guys next game then there may be a change. People don't though. While all games at the AAA segment get good initial sales, due to the marketing hype machine, that number can go down. There is such a thing as diminishing returns. I think ME3 -> MEA is proof of that. Piss off enough people and sales will go down. And it's fine to like what you made, as a developer, or even as a customer, but that doesn't mean everyone is up for your cup of tea. What is a good idea for one person, might be a bad idea for 10 people. And, fortunately, or unfortunately, Bioware operates at a level where pissing off 10 people to keep the one, is not a good business practice. Yeah, I think my point is a lower than expected ROI seems to barely affect design decisions with many companies or groups. A actual loss instead of just reduced profit would though. And since enough people seem to forget whatever pissed them off last time combined with new buyers, they continue to make enough to have a profit, just less profit than they want. If you repeat the cycle enough, the drop will be unsustainable though. But when you do massive gaps between games who knows how long that will take.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 29, 2020 4:48:40 GMT
Yeah, I think my point is a lower than expected ROI seems to barely affect design decisions with many companies or groups. I think it does matter. But you also need to speak out about why product A made less money than product B. And Andromeda lost money. We saw the article about how Andromeda made ~$110m dollars in net sales/revenue during its opening quarter. A game that cost $100m CA to make. Adjusting for currency and net revenue (~50% of net sales), we find out that Andromeda lost about ~$8-10m US for EA. Did Andromeda make its budget back eventually? Absolutely. Did it make a profit, eventually? Absolutely. But the RoI EA promised to investors wasn't there and most importantly not when EA wanted it to. Not to mention Andromeda fell way short of EA's sales expectations. As did Anthem. But Anthem was barely profitable, by basically not addressing Bioware's audience at all, i.e. an audience that had no real dissatisfaction toward Bioware. And since enough people seem to forget whatever pissed them off last time combined with new buyers, they continue to make enough to have a profit, just less profit than they want I think, considering how people, not just here, are still talking about ME3, people haven't forgot about this particular thing. You can't have a conversation about Bioware and not have several people argue about how Bioware has been making bad games since DA2. Edit: BTW, the article mentioned $110m US from "full game downloads" in that quarter. Meaning that those $110m are not all Andromeda money. It could only be Andromeda money if EA did not sell a single other full game title in that quarter. Which is possible, but extremely unlikely. The term used was net sales were "driven" by Andromeda's launch. So the actual number is, at least, slightly smaller.
"EA has previously cheered Mass Effect Andromeda’s impact on its own bottom line, claiming that full PC game and console downloads generated $111M in net sales, 32% higher than the year before. This was specifically called out as being driven by ME:A."
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Post by ahglock on Dec 29, 2020 5:52:48 GMT
I wonder how much EA play hurt initial sales of MEA. Getting those 10 hours in advance, that even after the patches aren't very compelling but getting the memes from it may have cancelled a lot of first week purchases.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Dec 29, 2020 5:58:16 GMT
I wonder how much EA play hurt initial sales of MEA. Getting those 10 hours in advance, that even after the patches aren't very compelling but getting the memes from it may have cancelled a lot of first week purchases. As Anthem showed us, not much. The people that wanted Anthem, got Anthem regardless. There just isn't much interest in Bioware, as there was 10 years ago.
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Post by Spectr61 on Dec 29, 2020 7:59:13 GMT
An interesting exercise is to track the stock price of EA after the ME3 launch and the ensuing endings debacle.
Lost about 1B in market cap.
ME3 probably wasn't the only factor, but likely contributed.
The stock has since risen appreciably, but my guess is that Biower with MEA and Anthem probably weren't the prime movers.
And in related news, CD Projekt Red stock has fallen about 30 percent following CyberPunk2077 release and the ensuing fiasco.
I wonder if Mssr Hudson moved to Poland?
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Post by mgsmsc on Dec 29, 2020 10:19:37 GMT
You just wonder whether hiring a few more people here and there and taking a bit more time might have averted some of their losses both in fans and investor confidence. Granted the reasons these projects go wrong is complex but I can't help thinking there is a false economy behind some of the decisions they make. That's not to say that decent financial control is a bad thing either but rather there is balance to be struck. Maybe its a bit harsh but there has been a move from creative endeavour to 'nuts and bolts' trading on a name. Not necessarily in all aspects of a title but something in the gameplay or writing goes awry - I think there is a concerted effort to broaden the appeal of a sequel and get as many people on the bandwagon as possible. When that goes well you get an ME2 or ME3 MP (somewhat subjective) but all in all I'm not sure it does you any favours.
I was sceptical about Anthem prelaunch, have not been convinced by what I have read since and haven't tried it. Theoretically a blend of MP and story/world progression would have been right up my street - I think the idea is good but tackling something like that requires a lot of things to be pulling in the same direction. Obviously that wasn't the case. Despite not having played it my perception does lean towards vindication at not pre ordering that one.
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Post by alanc9 on Dec 29, 2020 19:58:45 GMT
You just wonder whether hiring a few more people here and there and taking a bit more time might have averted some of their losses both in fans and investor confidence. Granted the reasons these projects go wrong is complex but I can't help thinking there is a false economy behind some of the decisions they make. That's not to say that decent financial control is a bad thing either but rather there is balance to be struck. Maybe its a bit harsh but there has been a move from creative endeavour to 'nuts and bolts' trading on a name. Not necessarily in all aspects of a title but something in the gameplay or writing goes awry - I think there is a concerted effort to broaden the appeal of a sequel and get as many people on the bandwagon as possible. When that goes well you get an ME2 or ME3 MP (somewhat subjective) but all in all I'm not sure it does you any favours. I was sceptical about Anthem prelaunch, have not been convinced by what I have read since and haven't tried it. Theoretically a blend of MP and story/world progression would have been right up my street - I think the idea is good but tackling something like that requires a lot of things to be pulling in the same direction. Obviously that wasn't the case. Despite not having played it my perception does lean towards vindication at not pre ordering that one. The big problem I saw with Anthem is that the basic gameplay loop isn't good. I'm not sure why anyone thought that Bio could handle a looter shooter in the first place. Their loot systems have been getting worse for years. It's not something they seem to be really interested in anymore. This doesn't bother me in their CRPGs -- in DAI I just craft stuff and that's fine. But a game like Anthem is about the loot.
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Post by river82 on Dec 29, 2020 21:35:59 GMT
The big problem I saw with Anthem is that the basic gameplay loop isn't good. I'm not sure why anyone thought that Bio could handle a looter shooter in the first place. Their loot systems have been getting worse for years. It's not something they seem to be really interested in anymore. This doesn't bother me in their CRPGs -- in DAI I just craft stuff and that's fine. But a game like Anthem is about the loot. 100% this. IIRC the loot and economy was so bad in ME1 it was irrevocably broken.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2020 0:16:16 GMT
You just wonder whether hiring a few more people here and there and taking a bit more time might have averted some of their losses both in fans and investor confidence. Granted the reasons these projects go wrong is complex but I can't help thinking there is a false economy behind some of the decisions they make. That's not to say that decent financial control is a bad thing either but rather there is balance to be struck. Maybe its a bit harsh but there has been a move from creative endeavour to 'nuts and bolts' trading on a name. Not necessarily in all aspects of a title but something in the gameplay or writing goes awry - I think there is a concerted effort to broaden the appeal of a sequel and get as many people on the bandwagon as possible. When that goes well you get an ME2 or ME3 MP (somewhat subjective) but all in all I'm not sure it does you any favours. I was sceptical about Anthem prelaunch, have not been convinced by what I have read since and haven't tried it. Theoretically a blend of MP and story/world progression would have been right up my street - I think the idea is good but tackling something like that requires a lot of things to be pulling in the same direction. Obviously that wasn't the case. Despite not having played it my perception does lean towards vindication at not pre ordering that one. From what I read back in 2012/2013, many games are indeed rushed to meet fiscal year's demands. I reckon the publishers count on the consumers good graces to tolerate a half-backed product, and keep enough sales to give it patches on the DLC's life cycle. To "broaden the appeal" is to turn a game into a bland product in the best case, or to turn it into a mockery of itself in the worst case. Anthem is a failed product, kept on life support by EA/BW and a modicum of gamers. A case to be studied on how to not make a game for sure. A childish, ludic endeavour for three years, but when the time came to turn it into something great, that could carry the name "Dylan" with pride...launch day, and shame.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2021 11:29:22 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2021 17:38:52 GMT
This guy nails it down.
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Post by AnDromedary on Mar 12, 2021 18:17:43 GMT
So this thread is about the OP reveling in any bad news and public criticisms about the studio that made some of their favorite games? That's just sad.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2021 21:24:42 GMT
So this thread is about the OP reveling in any bad news and public criticisms about the studio that made some of their favorite games? That's just sad. It is kinda sad. But BW's necropsy is interesting. It shows how this industry "works" and seems not to learn from its mistakes. To see the train going to the precipice in 2012 and nine years later seeing most my predictions right, it gives me some catharsis. Did I wanted BW to go down the drain? Hell no. But to compile all the information why things went this way. Yup, I find it interesting. And your critique is most welcome.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 13, 2021 10:59:33 GMT
So this thread is about the OP reveling in any bad news and public criticisms about the studio that made some of their favorite games? That's just sad. If there is ever a way back, from where Bioware is, how is it ever not going to be accomplished by, at least, some criticism? We can all just dig our heads in the ground and shut off any complaints, but the truth is that trust in Bioware is low and the only interest it generates, is through one controversy, after the other. And I am sure, I am 100% sure you can find a discord or a twitter group or a ResetEra thread that is nothing but 100% praise and positivity for Bioware's future like it's sunshine and roses, but that's simply not the reality of the matter. If Android Wilson has to go up to investors and call Bioware's recent games "blips", when before he gave them nothing but praise, you can understand that the gig is up. Because there is zero chance Wilson would ever say a bad thing about any of EA's studios and brands to investors, unless he couldn't put a spin on it.
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Post by Psychevore on Mar 13, 2021 12:45:09 GMT
So this thread is about the OP reveling in any bad news and public criticisms about the studio that made some of their favorite games? That's just sad. If there is ever a way back, from where Bioware is, how is it ever not going to be accomplished by, at least, some criticism? We can all just dig our heads in the ground and shut off any complaints, but the truth is that trust in Bioware is low and the only interest it generates, is through one controversy, after the other. And I am sure, I am 100% sure you can find a discord or a twitter group or a ResetEra thread that is nothing but 100% praise and positivity for Bioware's future like it's sunshine and roses, but that's simply not the reality of the matter. If Android Wilson has to go up to investors and call Bioware's recent games "blips", when before he gave them nothing but praise, you can understand that the gig is up. Because there is zero chance Wilson would ever say a bad thing about any of EA's studios and brands to investors, unless he couldn't put a spin on it. Ah, the discord channels are back. These seem to be the mirror opposite of those mysterious discord channels you are in where everyone is raggin on Mass Effect all day long.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 13, 2021 13:09:42 GMT
Ah, the discord channels are back. These seem to be the mirror opposite of those mysterious discord channels you are in where everyone is raggin on Mass Effect all day long. I'm not saying that it's what happens all day long, but when someone tries to strike a conversation about Bioware, the conversation about the present and future is rarely ever positive. And I think with good reason. And this is not just on me. We had Mac Walters admit fault for the ME3 endings in an IGN interview, if I recall correctly, we've had Mark Darrah say in the eurogamer interview how Andromeda was deeply flawed and even Android Wilson called Bioware's last few games "blips" to investors in the latest EA investor call. Are Bioware devs and EA's CEO wrong? Now, I've gone on and said that, under Christian's leadership, we will not see a game worse than an 8/10 and I stand by it. And an 8/10 is a great score ... for either a yearly franchise or a standalone title. It's not a good enough score for a Dragon Age or a Mass Effect game. And there's also the question of how long will Christian stick with Bioware. I can guarantee you, he's been noticed by other studios that are willing to pay better and afford him less stress. I won't be surprised if Christian is the next big departure from Bioware. And I doubt Mike Gamble will stay for the entirety of Will Continue's development either.
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Post by Psychevore on Mar 13, 2021 14:23:26 GMT
Ah, the discord channels are back. These seem to be the mirror opposite of those mysterious discord channels you are in where everyone is raggin on Mass Effect all day long. I'm not saying that it's what happens all day long, but when someone tries to strike a conversation about Bioware, the conversation about the present and future is rarely ever positive. And I think with good reason. And this is not just on me. We had Mac Walters admit fault for the ME3 endings in an IGN interview, if I recall correctly, we've had Mark Darrah say in the eurogamer interview how Andromeda was deeply flawed and even Android Wilson called Bioware's last few games "blips" to investors in the latest EA investor call. Are Bioware devs and EA's CEO wrong? Now, I've gone on and said that, under Christian's leadership, we will not see a game worse than an 8/10 and I stand by it. And an 8/10 is a great score ... for either a yearly franchise or a standalone title. It's not a good enough score for a Dragon Age or a Mass Effect game. And there's also the question of how long will Christian stick with Bioware. I can guarantee you, he's been noticed by other studios that are willing to pay better and afford him less stress. I won't be surprised if Christian is the next big departure from Bioware. And I doubt Mike Gamble will stay for the entirety of Will Continue's development either. That's not my point. My point has always been that you've been using 'sources', the discord channels, to back up your points yet refuse to allow anyone to check you on that. For ridiculous reasons I might add. As for an 8/10 not being good enough for Mass Effect or Dragon Age... why not? What kind of ridiclous dribble is that? Why does everything has to be 9/10 or 10/10? That's the attitude that has lead to gamers sending death threats to journalists for daring to give Cyberpunk a 'low' score. A score that should have been considerably lower considering the state the game was released in. That's also the attitidue that leads to you being a whiny bitch constantly crying about the sky falling down for minor changes like Miranda's buttshot. Ya'll are so incredibly invested in games and the companies that make them. It's unhealthy.
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Post by Sanunes on Mar 13, 2021 14:23:57 GMT
Ah, the discord channels are back. These seem to be the mirror opposite of those mysterious discord channels you are in where everyone is raggin on Mass Effect all day long. I'm not saying that it's what happens all day long, but when someone tries to strike a conversation about Bioware, the conversation about the present and future is rarely ever positive. And I think with good reason. And this is not just on me. We had Mac Walters admit fault for the ME3 endings in an IGN interview, if I recall correctly, we've had Mark Darrah say in the eurogamer interview how Andromeda was deeply flawed and even Android Wilson called Bioware's last few games "blips" to investors in the latest EA investor call. Are Bioware devs and EA's CEO wrong? Now, I've gone on and said that, under Christian's leadership, we will not see a game worse than an 8/10 and I stand by it. And an 8/10 is a great score ... for either a yearly franchise or a standalone title. It's not a good enough score for a Dragon Age or a Mass Effect game. And there's also the question of how long will Christian stick with Bioware. I can guarantee you, he's been noticed by other studios that are willing to pay better and afford him less stress. I won't be surprised if Christian is the next big departure from Bioware. And I doubt Mike Gamble will stay for the entirety of Will Continue's development either. The thing is that I don't think the online community represents any group accurately anymore. I know I left plenty of places with Mass Effect 3 because of how people responded to my feeling that Mass Effect 3 was a fine game and I won't let what I might not like about the ending ruin that. Okay Mac Walters said he would take "responsibility" for the Mass Effect 3 endings. Alright, no idea what that does for the future aside from seeing where the problems that everyone jumped on claimed was the worst thing. With him saying that Andromeda was a "deeply flawed game" he also said that he thought if released in a different window when not around so many games that focused on one thing it would have been an 8/10 game. That doesn't make me think he was that the future is negative either. Andrew Wilson's comments about "blips on the radar" again doesn't make me think they are that negative, but outliers and things will change. So they are looking backwards and seeing the problems and saying they don't think the games were perfect unlike another recent studio with their game that makes Anthem look like a near perfect game and made less fixes to it then BioWare did for Anthem or Andromeda. If you are claiming that 8/10 is good enough for anything but a BioWare title I think that proves that its impossible to make a game that the people claiming the future for BioWare is doomed. Not because the games aren't going to be good, but they are being held to a standard beyond what the other games are. Mass Effect 1 was a flawed game for when you hear people talk about it you hear a lot of negatives around it as well for things like the Mako, issues exploring, or combat systems rarely get a great response either. The only real positive I hear about Mass Effect 1 was the story and I normally hear at least a standout thing for any other BioWare game. As an example I normally hear positives about the Javelins and exploration, while the end game loop was the problem for a lot of people.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2021 15:15:04 GMT
I can understand OP's sentiment, and share it to an extent.
I guess the passage of time has worked on my feels - I don't feel strongly attached to the BioWare brand anymore, so the feeling of "vindication" or "being correct" has become a little blasé. Not judging, just revealing to myself really that my butthurt has mostly passed.
This is in itself a massive indictment of BioWare - a fan for 15 years now feels little but apathy for them, shadenfreude is hollow, they don't matter to me.
I'm here hopefully for the redemption arc. Otherwise, I have an industrial size popcorn maker, this forum will provide the salt.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Mar 13, 2021 15:51:01 GMT
That's not my point. My point has always been that you've been using 'sources', the discord channels, to back up your points yet refuse to allow anyone to check you on that. For ridiculous reasons I might add. Privacy and the job security that affords is not a ridiculous reason. Nobody wants to be known in the industry as "the person that outs the problems". You're just committing career suicide. It doesn't afford you the anonymity. And if I want to keep being talked to, I am going to need to keep the trust. As for places that I go to that aren't related to people in the industry, well, you know where the big places of congregation are. You don't need me telling you. Suffice to say that, while people in important places do inhabit ResetEra, the ones that haven't been banned yet, at least, it isn't representative of the big picture. I am sorry to inform people that, for better or worse, about 73% of US adults use youtube. And some channels do belong to game sites and even independent youtubers have large followings and even those youtubers have gathering spots that they discuss news between themselves. Whether you like it or not, people do watch these channels. Large numbers of people. Much larger than they gather on twitter, where it's a dwarfed 22%. As to who these youtubers are and where do they communicate, I am sure you can figure it out yourself. As for an 8/10 not being good enough for Mass Effect or Dragon Age... why not? What kind of ridiclous dribble is that? Why does everything has to be 9/10 or 10/10? Because of expectations, because of attachment and because of negative feelings. Bioware has lost an entire console generation with mediocre to bad launches. It's not gaining new fans. An 8/10 title from Bioware is a "meh" to the public. A bargain bin title. It may generate some good will, for someone to look forward to in the next time a Bioware title hits a bargain bin. It doesn't generate launch sales. And since a game generates 50% of its lifetime revenue in its first 10 weeks, Bioware needs those early sales. It can get them from old fans, if they still know how to approach them. It's easy money. That's the attitude that has lead to gamers sending death threats to journalists for daring to give Cyberpunk a 'low' score. A score that should have been considerably lower considering the state the game was released in. That's also the attitidue that leads to you being a whiny bitch constantly crying about the sky falling down for minor changes like Miranda's buttshot. Ya'll are so incredibly invested in games and the companies that make them. It's unhealthy. I do not condone anyone sending death threats to anyone. For any reason. I can understand the frustration and to anyone who has those feelings here or elsewhere, I'm available to talk. That is not OK. Call me a whiny bitch, if it makes you feel better. It shows a lot about what and how Bioware prioritizes nowadays. They will censor the buttshot, but wouldn't change the endings. Am I supposed to root for that? Because, after all, my primary concern was a shot focusing on a butt. That was offensive. Being taken for a ride with the endings was obviously not. And yes, I am invested in Bioware, I have been for ... 23 years now? I am invested in Mass Effect. We are the fans. We spent time and money promoting this franchise. In a sense, it belongs to us as much as it belongs to Bioware. Effectively, without a fanbase, without a devoted fanbase, no franchise can exist. It's a luxury product. Star Wars, arguably the biggest entertainment franchise on the planet, can't make money for Disney outside of the Mandalorian. Disney can't make a post on any social media platform and not get swarmed by angry fans. To some people, some entertainment products mean more. Just like to some people it's their football team, or their baseball team, or their basketball team etc. It's the same damn thing. Imagine if the Lakers hit the court, losing every game in the season and Lebron coming out and saying that it's easy to be a critic from the stands, how the fans are "entitled" for wanting to see the Lakers win and that they won't sacrifice their "athletic integrity" for a win. Who is going to put up with that? Who is not going to be furious with the Lakers, after that? What do you think the reaction is going to be? " Ah, cheers mate, guess I'll go support the Golden State Warriors, then." I don't fucking think so. The thing is that I don't think the online community represents any group accurately anymore. I know I left plenty of places with Mass Effect 3 because of how people responded to my feeling that Mass Effect 3 was a fine game and I won't let what I might not like about the ending ruin that. I'm not here to tell you that you shouldn't like ME3. Even if I berate it on almost every aspect, it does get some things right. And people should advocate for it. The point isn't to create an echo chamber. But all opinions should be heard and heard freely and equally. It can boggle my mind how you liked ME3, but I do understand that you do. And that's enough for me. I like Andromeda about as much as ME3 and yet, here I am, advocating for a sequel to it. I think it's a bad time to make it, but I do think that Bioware should absolutely make it. And I wouldn't be in favour of Bioware making it, had I not come to discuss it with people right here. Opinions can change. My opinion can change, it has changed. But I also can't disregard the facts. Damage has been done, the outlook isn't good and Bioware needs to make the impossible happen, if Dread Wolf is the going to bounce them back. At least, so far, I see it as impossible. Okay Mac Walters said he would take "responsibility" for the Mass Effect 3 endings. Alright, no idea what that does for the future aside from seeing where the problems that everyone jumped on claimed was the worst thing. With him saying that Andromeda was a "deeply flawed game" he also said that he thought if released in a different window when not around so many games that focused on one thing it would have been an 8/10 game. That doesn't make me think he was that the future is negative either. Andrew Wilson's comments about "blips on the radar" again doesn't make me think they are that negative, but outliers and things will change. So they are looking backwards and seeing the problems and saying they don't think the games were perfect unlike another recent studio with their game that makes Anthem look like a near perfect game and made less fixes to it then BioWare did for Anthem or Andromeda. While what other studios do is not irrelevant, as no studio exists in a vacuum, none of Bioware's recent blunders instills trust in the future. Trust needs to be rebuilt and, I'm sorry to say this, but even in the event that the LE is a massive success that sells near to ME3 levels, which I doubt, is not a vote of confidence for the future, but rather an affirmation that we are stuck no further than 2012. It proves that the fanbase that liked what ME1 and ME2 built upon is still there, but just rejects post ME3 Bioware. It doesn't mean that fixes Will Continue's prospects. If you are claiming that 8/10 is good enough for anything but a BioWare title I think that proves that its impossible to make a game that the people claiming the future for BioWare is doomed. Not because the games aren't going to be good, but they are being held to a standard beyond what the other games are. Mass Effect 1 was a flawed game for when you hear people talk about it you hear a lot of negatives around it as well for things like the Mako, issues exploring, or combat systems rarely get a great response either. The only real positive I hear about Mass Effect 1 was the story and I normally hear at least a standout thing for any other BioWare game. As an example I normally hear positives about the Javelins and exploration, while the end game loop was the problem for a lot of people. Maybe that's the thing. The problems with the MEs were largely on the technical side, which persisted in newer games as well. But perhaps the previous games offered something that the new games don't. Or perhaps some damage occurred that turned the fanbase away from future Bioware/ME projects. I've said it before and I'll say it again; Bioware struck gold, especially with ME2, in audience acceptance and attachment. It's not easily repeatable and less so exceeded. If you want to retire that and start over with something new, you need to outdo yourself. And Bioware is simply not equipped with that, at the moment. People say that Andromeda was unfairly criticized, because it was a single game being compared to a trilogy. ME2 had a largely new cast, with only two returning members. With the exception of Jacob, who people were mostly indifferent to, the cast was well loved. All the new characters had their fans and in exceeding numbers. Why didn't people react similarly with Andromeda? What prevented them? An 8/10 game, as good as it is, is not going to win people over. It's going to limp Bioware to the next title, perhaps. Or perhaps not. Things are really tight right now.
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psychevore
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Psychevore on Mar 13, 2021 18:13:00 GMT
That's not my point. My point has always been that you've been using 'sources', the discord channels, to back up your points yet refuse to allow anyone to check you on that. For ridiculous reasons I might add. Privacy and the job security that affords is not a ridiculous reason. Nobody wants to be known in the industry as "the person that outs the problems". You're just committing career suicide. It doesn't afford you the anonymity. And if I want to keep being talked to, I am going to need to keep the trust. As for places that I go to that aren't related to people in the industry, well, you know where the big places of congregation are. You don't need me telling you. Suffice to say that, while people in important places do inhabit ResetEra, the ones that haven't been banned yet, at least, it isn't representative of the big picture. I am sorry to inform people that, for better or worse, about 73% of US adults use youtube. And some channels do belong to game sites and even independent youtubers have large followings and even those youtubers have gathering spots that they discuss news between themselves. Whether you like it or not, people do watch these channels. Large numbers of people. Much larger than they gather on twitter, where it's a dwarfed 22%. As to who these youtubers are and where do they communicate, I am sure you can figure it out yourself. That's a great story, but ultimately you're just asking me to believe you on your word. I don't do that, especially not since you're incredibly annoying, overly pessimistic and incredibly dramatic. Also, I honestly don't believe you're talking to industry insiders on your secret discord channels in a foreing language we supposedly wouldn't understand. You're digging quite the hole for yourself here, I'd lay down the shovel. As for an 8/10 not being good enough for Mass Effect or Dragon Age... why not? What kind of ridiclous dribble is that? Why does everything has to be 9/10 or 10/10? Because of expectations, because of attachment and because of negative feelings. Bioware has lost an entire console generation with mediocre to bad launches. It's not gaining new fans. An 8/10 title from Bioware is a "meh" to the public. A bargain bin title. It may generate some good will, for someone to look forward to in the next time a Bioware title hits a bargain bin. It doesn't generate launch sales. And since a game generates 50% of its lifetime revenue in its first 10 weeks, Bioware needs those early sales. It can get them from old fans, if they still know how to approach them. It's easy money. Whose expectations? Who's expecting any developer to pump out 9/10 or 10/10 games all the time? It's you, isn't it? Just like you are 'the public', who you've conveniently made yourself the spokesperson of. Brilliant stuff once again. I don't think you have any clue what the average gamer is like. Because the average gamer hardly ever finishes a game (every Steam statistic, and Xbox/Playstation achievement statistic backs this up), they aren't on forums shouting their opinion at everyone. They just play games in the little spare time they have. People on forums, like you and me, who talk about games long after they're released are a minority of gamers. These companies don't make games for us. A tough thing to realize probably, but that's just how it is. We are not where they make their money. That's the attitude that has lead to gamers sending death threats to journalists for daring to give Cyberpunk a 'low' score. A score that should have been considerably lower considering the state the game was released in. That's also the attitidue that leads to you being a whiny bitch constantly crying about the sky falling down for minor changes like Miranda's buttshot. Ya'll are so incredibly invested in games and the companies that make them. It's unhealthy. I do not condone anyone sending death threats to anyone. For any reason. I can understand the frustration and to anyone who has those feelings here or elsewhere, I'm available to talk. That is not OK. Call me a whiny bitch, if it makes you feel better. It kinda does. It shows a lot about what and how Bioware prioritizes nowadays. They will censor the buttshot, but wouldn't change the endings. Am I supposed to root for that? Because, after all, my primary concern was a shot focusing on a butt. That was offensive. Being taken for a ride with the endings was obviously not. 'censor' the butt, haha. Here you are again, pretending you've already played the game and all your worst fears have come true. From what I've understood, they're just going to change the angle so her ass isn't the focal point in a very serious, kinda dramatic scene. Which was always ridiculous. You don't have to root for anything. You shouldn't ever root for a company, any company whatsoever, no matter how many good things they've given you. They only care about your wallet. And the endings weren't that bad. And yes, I am invested in Bioware, I have been for ... 23 years now? I am invested in Mass Effect. We are the fans. We spent time and money promoting this franchise. In a sense, it belongs to us as much as it belongs to Bioware. Effectively, without a fanbase, without a devoted fanbase, no franchise can exist. It's a luxury product. Star Wars, arguably the biggest entertainment franchise on the planet, can't make money for Disney outside of the Mandalorian. Disney can't make a post on any social media platform and not get swarmed by angry fans. To some people, some entertainment products mean more. Just like to some people it's their football team, or their baseball team, or their basketball team etc. It's the same damn thing. Imagine if the Lakers hit the court, losing every game in the season and Lebron coming out and saying that it's easy to be a critic from the stands, how the fans are "entitled" for wanting to see the Lakers win and that they won't sacrifice their "athletic integrity" for a win. Who is going to put up with that? Who is not going to be furious with the Lakers, after that? What do you think the reaction is going to be? " Ah, cheers mate, guess I'll go support the Golden State Warriors, then." I don't fucking think so. There you go again, casually making up 'facts' to weave a narative that fits your predetermined conclusion. www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2020/05/20/star-wars-box-office-disney-jj-abrams-profits-fox-george-lucas/?sh=7c8435376276Disney made a boatload of money on their Star Wars movies. I quote: "The Disney Star Wars trilogy earned $4.475 billion on a combined budget of around $720 million while the Prequel Star Wars trilogy earned (not counting reissues) $2.437 billion on a combined $345 million budget." Angry fans aren't a good representation of the larger public. They're just angry and loud. As for that whole 'we the fans own the product': no we don't.
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andydandymandy
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 285 Likes: 685
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andydandymandy
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by andydandymandy on Mar 13, 2021 18:58:07 GMT
"They changed the butt shots but not the endings"
Yes, because changing the endings of ME3 would've required remaking that entire section of the game. That is a lot more complicated (and costly) then changing the camera angle of a few scenes.
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