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Post by Iddy on Jan 20, 2021 18:22:13 GMT
And it isn't a theory. Cassandra tells us directly that Hawke was the candidate for Inquisitor first. Only after they cancelled the Exalted March DLC and so needed an explanation for why Cassandra was looking for them. At the time Flemeth made her prophesy Hawke was not in line for the job. In fact the whole plot would probably have worked out differently as Hawke would have confronted Corypheus in Kirkwall. Also, as I pointed out above, it doesn't fit with her words because Hawke didn't make a leap of faith but the floor just fell out under them and had the Inquisitor not been there with the magic hand, they would have splatted on the rocks below. So they would only discover by going splat that they can't fly (if they didn't know that already). That is the thing with prophesy. It is always easy to match it after the event to things that seem to fit it. After all, everyone thought the PC in DAI was the Herald of Andraste and part of fulfilling Drakon's prophesy but of course that turned out to be nonsense and we weren't a Herald of anything. Flemeth seemed to hint we were a Herald of Change but then she would know what Solas was planning and that if he succeeded there are going to be big changes but that doesn't make it a prophesy, just insider knowledge. Except that when Flemeth made the prophecy, there was no Inquisition in the making. So no job to line up for at all. But yeah, it is always easy to make the argument that "See? Everything has led to the foreseen outcome".
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 20, 2021 18:27:04 GMT
After all, everyone thought the PC in DAI was the Herald of Andraste and part of fulfilling Drakon's prophesy but of course that turned out to be nonsense and we weren't a Herald of anything. Disagree.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 20, 2021 18:59:03 GMT
In what way were we the "Herald"? What were we announcing or a precursor to? Remember I am saying this with regard to how people saw us in world. We were given the title Herald specifically because it was thought we were fulfilling a religious prophesy about the return of Andraste. Even when it was categorically shown we did not receive the mark from Andraste or the Maker and she was not the woman behind us in the Fade, the people were still encouraged to call us the Herald but we did not merit that title. I repeat, what were we meant to be heralding?
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Post by thebobzilla84 on Jan 21, 2021 7:00:39 GMT
As a Morriganmancer i'm a little worried if they do choose to make her Mythal "Flemeth" it's going to completely change her character and if Flemeth does take possession of Morrigan's body as a part of the story then Bioware is going to have to address the Warden/Morrigan Relationship as well as The OGB/Kieran.
Which means they are going to have to address the Warden as well and that worries me even more because with Bioware being Bioware I wouldn't put it past them to kill off the warden by having Flemeth kill them off screen in some BS way they can't use The Calling either because after the Dark Ritual the Darkspawn taint was removed so the warden is now only a Warden in title only.
Btw as a Claudia Black stand I certainly want her back voicing Morrigan but in my opinion if Flemeth isn't voiced by Kate Mulgrew that's not Flemeth.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 21, 2021 13:08:43 GMT
In what way were we the "Herald"? What were we announcing or a precursor to? Remember I am saying this with regard to how people saw us in world. We were given the title Herald specifically because it was thought we were fulfilling a religious prophesy about the return of Andraste. Even when it was categorically shown we did not receive the mark from Andraste or the Maker and she was not the woman behind us in the Fade, the people were still encouraged to call us the Herald but we did not merit that title. I repeat, what were we meant to be heralding? I feel like these questions are self-explanatory. The Christian God has yet to be proven to exist let alone to actually intervene in earthly affairs, but that doesn't stop people from claiming various incidents and phenomena to be the work and/or acts of God. Likewise with the Maker. There's no evidence that the Maker didn't set events in motion to ensure that the Inquisitor would be in the right place at the right time to receive the power of the Anchor, and people who believe in the Maker, like Leliana, Cassandra, Cullen, etc, attribute seeming coincidences or good luck to his influence/intervention all the time, with phrases like 'thank the Maker'. Not personally seeing the Maker or Andraste in the game doesn't disprove their existence and/or involvement, because the entire thesis of the Chant of Light (and indeed, most real world religious scriptures) is that you won't ever see them for yourself or ever receive any hard proof of their existence. Your faith will be rewarded either post-death or when the apocalypse comes, and you won't receive any concrete proof until then. The lack of evidence is the entire point. That is the nature of the test: in order to earn your reward in the after-life, you must maintain your faith, even in the face of total lack of evidence, doubters/heretics, and the general horror and suffering of mortal life. A herald doesn't necessarily need to know what they're heralding, either, or that they even are a herald at all. 'Herald' means 'messenger', sure, but it can also mean 'harbinger' or 'sign', and is commonly used in that sense eg: 'the smoke heralds fire', or 'the flowers herald spring'. Smoke and flowers lack sentience so can't knowingly be messengers and likewise, the 'Herald of Andraste' doesn't necessarily literally mean 'messenger sent by Andraste', but rather just one sign in a series of signs that signal the return of Andraste, similarly to how the Book of Revelation in the Bible has a series of signs that culminate in the Apocalypse.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 21, 2021 13:12:20 GMT
As a Morriganmancer i'm a little worried if they do choose to make her Mythal "Flemeth" it's going to completely change her character and if Flemeth does take possession of Morrigan's body as a part of the story then Bioware is going to have to address the Warden/Morrigan Relationship as well as The OGB/Kieran. Which means they are going to have to address the Warden as well and that worries me even more because with Bioware being Bioware I wouldn't put it past them to kill off the warden by having Flemeth kill them off screen in some BS way they can't use The Calling either because after the Dark Ritual the Darkspawn taint was removed so the warden is now only a Warden in title only. Btw as a Claudia Black stand I certainly want her back voicing Morrigan but in my opinion if Flemeth isn't voiced by Kate Mulgrew that's not Flemeth. It actually doesn't mean any of that, and that's also not how the Dark Ritual works. The Warden is still tainted and will still die, barring some sort of cure being discovered. At no point does anyone in the games claim that the Dark Ritual will cure the Warden of the taint.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 21, 2021 15:43:08 GMT
they can't use The Calling either because after the Dark Ritual the Darkspawn taint was removed so the warden is now only a Warden in title only. It actually doesn't mean any of that, and that's also not how the Dark Ritual works. The Warden is still tainted and will still die, barring some sort of cure being discovered. At no point does anyone in the games claim that the Dark Ritual will cure the Warden of the taint. This is why the reason for the Wardens absence in DAI was said to be because they were off chasing some sort of "cure" in the west (wherever that might be but presumably beyond the map of Thedas we have). Unless romancing Leliana, they are apparently still off doing that or gave it up as a failure but it would be good if they would confirm this one way or another.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 21, 2021 15:47:24 GMT
rather just one sign in a series of signs that signal the return of Andraste, similarly to how the Book of Revelation in the Bible has a series of signs that culminate in the Apocalypse. That is what I understood Herald to mean in the context of DAI but in this case the end of the world didn't happen, Andraste didn't return and everything went on much as before, so again I ask "Herald of what?" (I'm not thinking of anything the writers may have planned for the future that might fit the prophesy but what people believed at the time when they gave you the title) IRL there have been plenty of "prophets" who claim or other people claim to have predicted the end of the world is nigh, only for this to be subsequently disproved, often with a corresponding crisis of faith in those that believed their claims. Strangely nothing of the sort happened in Thedas.
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Post by Sifr on Jan 21, 2021 18:05:35 GMT
In what way were we the "Herald"? What were we announcing or a precursor to? Remember I am saying this with regard to how people saw us in world. We were given the title Herald specifically because it was thought we were fulfilling a religious prophesy about the return of Andraste. Even when it was categorically shown we did not receive the mark from Andraste or the Maker and she was not the woman behind us in the Fade, the people were still encouraged to call us the Herald but we did not merit that title. I repeat, what were we meant to be heralding? The establishment of Thedas' first baseball team?
It was a sad day for the sport when their star catcher suffered a career-ending injury, I tell ya.
(A friendly reminder that all made the Herald "special" was the ability to catch a stray ball)
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jan 21, 2021 21:20:36 GMT
rather just one sign in a series of signs that signal the return of Andraste, similarly to how the Book of Revelation in the Bible has a series of signs that culminate in the Apocalypse. That is what I understood Herald to mean in the context of DAI but in this case the end of the world didn't happen, Andraste didn't return and everything went on much as before, so again I ask "Herald of what?" (I'm not thinking of anything the writers may have planned for the future that might fit the prophesy but what people believed at the time when they gave you the title) IRL there have been plenty of "prophets" who claim or other people claim to have predicted the end of the world is nigh, only for this to be subsequently disproved, often with a corresponding crisis of faith in those that believed their claims. Strangely nothing of the sort happened in Thedas. Well to the people of Thedas, I'm sure it looked like the end of the world at the time, it's not at all similar to the situation of "prophets" on modern-day Earth, but assuming Drakon's prophecy is remotely relevant to events, there's no specific timeline for the things he witnessed to occur. They could be years, or even decades apart. If these events do indeed lead up to the return of Andraste (though personally I doubt it), then, from a certain point of view people will have been correct to refer to the Inquisitor as a Herald.
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Post by alanc9 on Jan 22, 2021 4:14:30 GMT
Now I'm thinking of Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. The tribe's mythology is obviously garbage... and yet, somehow, Max ends up fulfilling it.
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Post by thebobzilla84 on Jan 22, 2021 4:49:26 GMT
As a Morriganmancer i'm a little worried if they do choose to make her Mythal "Flemeth" it's going to completely change her character and if Flemeth does take possession of Morrigan's body as a part of the story then Bioware is going to have to address the Warden/Morrigan Relationship as well as The OGB/Kieran. Which means they are going to have to address the Warden as well and that worries me even more because with Bioware being Bioware I wouldn't put it past them to kill off the warden by having Flemeth kill them off screen in some BS way they can't use The Calling either because after the Dark Ritual the Darkspawn taint was removed so the warden is now only a Warden in title only. Btw as a Claudia Black stand I certainly want her back voicing Morrigan but in my opinion if Flemeth isn't voiced by Kate Mulgrew that's not Flemeth. It actually doesn't mean any of that, and that's also not how the Dark Ritual works. The Warden is still tainted and will still die, barring some sort of cure being discovered. At no point does anyone in the games claim that the Dark Ritual will cure the Warden of the taint. Well Fiona was cured in the Calling so It is not impossible to cure the taint even without the dark ritual.🤨
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 22, 2021 4:51:22 GMT
It actually doesn't mean any of that, and that's also not how the Dark Ritual works. The Warden is still tainted and will still die, barring some sort of cure being discovered. At no point does anyone in the games claim that the Dark Ritual will cure the Warden of the taint. Well Fiona was cured in the Calling so It is not impossible to cure the taint even without the dark ritual.🤨 Thats why they weren’t around in DAI. They were off the map looking for a cure.
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Post by thebobzilla84 on Jan 22, 2021 4:52:38 GMT
I worry Bioware will finally kill off the HoF off screen in DA4 in some lame ass way.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 22, 2021 4:57:23 GMT
I worry Bioware will finally kill off the HoF off screen in DA4 in some lame ass way. I don’t see why. Just have them stay in the south if they come back to Thedas. That’s what they’re doing even with characters that make sense to involve.
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Post by thebobzilla84 on Jan 22, 2021 5:06:02 GMT
Well Fiona was cured in the Calling so It is not impossible to cure the taint even without the dark ritual.🤨 Thats why they weren’t around in DAI. They were off the map looking for a cure. Really though in DAI they just wanted the HoF to get a mention by LI's and a few Codex/Npc's and that be all so I hope in DA4 the HoF finds a cure and doesn't get brought back at all no mentions comments or nothing also they cant die for story purposes. In fact you know what I dont want Morrigan,Alistair or Leliana brought back in DA4 either.If Bioware has to bring back someone my choices would be Sten,Fenris & Shale.
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Post by Kyros on Jan 22, 2021 12:47:21 GMT
I don't mind seeing Leliana or Morrigan again but I would prefer not to. Alistair however is the one character I don't want to see for a looong time.
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Post by michaeln7 on Jan 22, 2021 13:27:01 GMT
My only real concern(s) are threefold:
1) How will "they" incorporate/accommodate the myriad World States and choices? Short of just cutting it to the root, that's a pretty tall order.
2) Is this going to metastasize into "current year but with dragons"? Because that's the storytelling equivalent to someone giving you a delicious cookie, and then that same someone slaps a fish on it while condemning you for asking questions. Honest debate is an awesome thing, but it requires a level of humility and sensibility that I simply haven't seen in gaming or gaming communities. [This is the last forum I'm still a member of, because other places just got too hostile for people 'like me', who wish to understand points-of-view.]
3) The trailer that I saw has Varric say: "This is your story." I've heard that line before, and too many times it becomes a way of *excusing* a LACK of story.
To be fair, I like Brian Bloom. He was a writer for "Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare" which I thought had an interesting story. I bring that up because he straight-up said that they were going for a classic "good guy vs bad guy" story, where you knew who was who. So I went in expecting that, and subsequently had a blast. E3N ("Ethan") was one of my favorite characters. Best robot next to WALL-E and R2D2.
The point being it wasn't sold as one thing then proven to be another.
What I hope is that I've overthought this and will be pleasantly surprised.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Jan 23, 2021 1:44:55 GMT
I always thought the PC in DA4 would come into contact with Morrigan/Inquisitor, since from what everyone's guessing, Solas will be the Bad Guy this time around. The well choice felt like the Ashes from Origins, in the sense that's there's a clear cut that it's important on who has to drink from it. Maybe Solas is manipulating them now that Flemeth is (possibly) dead?
That's my guess.
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Post by xerrai on Jan 23, 2021 2:45:26 GMT
In what way were we the "Herald"? What were we announcing or a precursor to? Remember I am saying this with regard to how people saw us in world. We were given the title Herald specifically because it was thought we were fulfilling a religious prophesy about the return of Andraste. Even when it was categorically shown we did not receive the mark from Andraste or the Maker and she was not the woman behind us in the Fade, the people were still encouraged to call us the Herald but we did not merit that title. I repeat, what were we meant to be heralding? I imagine it depends on who you ask. Among the faithful, answers can range from punishing mortals for thier sins or to representing the potential arrival of the Maker himself as he either comes to the world to end it or to deliver them from the world's wickedness. Or something vague about spreading the Maker's glory. The people were more likely to accept something like that other than the truth. Once the title of "Herald" spread and the Inquisitor became legitimate, they were likely willing to ascribe any number of causes to the Inquisitor's arrival. It doesn't matter what that cause was, all that mattered was that they were the Herald of 'something'. Because being a Herald implied a higher power at play, rather than being the result of happenstance and an ancient artifact with a power they cannot hope to understand.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 23, 2021 11:11:17 GMT
Because being a Herald implied a higher power at play Somewhat amusing considering the Chantry teach that the Maker no longer concerns himself with the world until the Chant has been spread to all corners of Thedas, which would be the signal for his return. Hmm, may be that is why Giselle encouraged the faithful to start singing after Haven; they just needed that last bit of song to bring the Maker back. (heavy sarcasm). I am curious as to how the whole thing was explained to the faithful. At the beginning there was the hole in the sky and chaos across the land that seemed to prelude the end of the world. So I could fully see how the PC got given the title of Herald, what with their magic hand (which could only have come from the Maker) and the fact that the soldiers claim to have seen a female figure (which could only have been Andraste) standing behind them as they walked out of the Fade. That is not my problem. I understand why they were given the title at the beginning. I just question how they explained away what happened later. Clearly, you were not heralding the imminent return of the Maker at the end of the world because in fact the PC prevented this, at least in the main game. So they were not so much the "Herald" as the "Hand" of the Maker, fixing things and punishing the Magister Sidereal a second time for his presumption. So far so good but then we come to Trespasser. Surely if the PC is the "Maker's Chosen" as they can declare to Corypheus if you are a believer, isn't it somewhat sinful of anyone to suggest you step down? Wouldn't the common people be calling for their saviour to be retained? Then there is the rather awkward fact of the anchor and the loss of your hand. Still I suppose that could be explained away as being the Maker's will being exerted once again. Clearly the "Herald" had outstayed their original purpose in the Maker's plan and so he felt it necessary to take back his "gift" to make the point. In which case I assume they would keep very quiet about the fact that the world was still in danger because people might just start asking if Andraste was actually going to return after all.
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Post by thebobzilla84 on Jul 12, 2022 10:13:20 GMT
If they bring back Morrigan/Leliana/Alistair for DA4 they will have to address the HOF if they romanced them and that’s a minefield so there is only 2 options another DAI where they are mentioned off hand by said LI.Or BioWare could just pull a BioWare and kill off the HoF off screen in a weak ass story decision.So I don’t want any of them to be brought back tbh.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 12, 2022 16:58:10 GMT
If they bring back Morrigan/Leliana/Alistair for DA4 they will have to address the HOF if they romanced them and that’s a minefield so there is only 2 options another DAI where they are mentioned off hand by said LI.Or BioWare could just pull a BioWare and kill off the HoF off screen in a weak ass story decision They have rather painted themselves into a corner in the epilogue to Trespasser where the HoF is concerned. They could just have left them out west somewhere endlessly searching for the "cure". However, specifically if in a romance with Leliana, they are back in retirement with her. So what happened to the rest of them? (Presumably this will be explained in a codex). Anyway, the epilogue also said that Leliana was grooming Harding and Charter to take over her duties, so I think we can safely say that Leliana is now out of the picture whether with the HoF or not. Meanwhile, Morrigan posed a different problem in that she was going out west to join the HoF in their search at the end of DAI, with or without Kieran in tow. It is just possible that she will still return in DAD but minus Kieran or the HoF. It depends on whether the writers are still following DG's plot for her. As for Alistair, he is definitely out as well. If you didn't get him to kick the habit, he ended up a total wreck and it was hinted that Harding (I think) put him out of his misery. Otherwise, he is another character in honourable retirement, with or without his LI. So the only one we could potentially see again is Morrigan.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 12, 2022 18:07:40 GMT
As for Alistair, he is definitely out as well. If you didn't get him to kick the habit, he ended up a total wreck and it was hinted that Harding (I think) put him out of his misery. That was Cullen, not Alistair.
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thebobzilla84
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August 2016
thebobzilla84
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by thebobzilla84 on Jul 12, 2022 18:28:31 GMT
If they bring back Morrigan/Leliana/Alistair for DA4 they will have to address the HOF if they romanced them and that’s a minefield so there is only 2 options another DAI where they are mentioned off hand by said LI.Or BioWare could just pull a BioWare and kill off the HoF off screen in a weak ass story decision They have rather painted themselves into a corner in the epilogue to Trespasser where the HoF is concerned. They could just have left them out west somewhere endlessly searching for the "cure". However, specifically if in a romance with Leliana, they are back in retirement with her. So what happened to the rest of them? (Presumably this will be explained in a codex). Anyway, the epilogue also said that Leliana was grooming Harding and Charter to take over her duties, so I think we can safely say that Leliana is now out of the picture whether with the HoF or not. Meanwhile, Morrigan posed a different problem in that she was going out west to join the HoF in their search at the end of DAI, with or without Kieran in tow. It is just possible that she will still return in DAD but minus Kieran or the HoF. It depends on whether the writers are still following DG's plot for her. As for Alistair, he is definitely out as well. If you didn't get him to kick the habit, he ended up a total wreck and it was hinted that Harding (I think) put him out of his misery. Otherwise, he is another character in honourable retirement, with or without his LI. So the only one we could potentially see again is Morrigan. Your right BioWare has cornered themselves and I have a feeling Morrigan will be brought back no doubt because after having Solas kill Flemeth they need as way to bring back Mythal and unless they are gonna pull a clone/duplicate Flemeth scenario I just know they are going to use Morrigan as a vessel for that. Personally I would prefer BioWare use Yavana or introduce a new Witch of the Wilds But that’s not gonna happen because of the Well of Knowledge plot and Mythal Morrigan will end up as Flemeth just watch. And I can totally see BioWare having a Romanced Morrigan/Flemeth/Mythal killing the HoF off screen before showing up in Dreadwolf maybe with Kieran or BioWare could really stick it too the HoF fan base by having the HoF become a Darkspawn Revenant that is under the Control of Morrigan/Flemeth/Mythal via the OGB Kieran. Granted I don’t want that but I could definitely see them doing that tbh. Also I hope they don’t scrap DG plot that was what made Morrigan the awesome/beloved character she is but if they totally scrap it to turn her into Flemeth it will ruin her character she did everything to avoid becoming Flemeth and if BW forces that drastic twist it will totally ruin her imo.
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