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Post by pessimistpanda on Mar 16, 2021 14:34:47 GMT
A sense of mystery makes stories and their settings feel richer, for some, and especially so in Fantasy. Middle Earth has lots of mysteries, the Lovecraft mythos is entirely built on a sense of mystery (and racism). It's really common for fantasy works to hint at things in lore and the setting that will never be answered. Making the reader ask questions isn't a promise from the writer that those will ever be answered at any point, and a lot of authors deliberately insert questions they have no intention of ever answering. In my personal experience, the mystery is the fun part and answers are usually disappointing, but when it comes to Andraste, I simply never cared to begin with, and there's way, WAY bigger revelations about the nature of Thedas and its history to contend with now. I would be less than impressed if time that *could* be spent on learning about the pre-veil world or the rock giants the world is literally made of was instead spent on addressing some woman's mental health. And I'm not particularly interested in revisiting the old gods, if the origins and solution of the Taint can be handled without them. Also, as a general personal rule, resurrection is lazy tool for hacks, and I'm not a fan of immortality either. Meh, to me that whole "the mystery is the fun part" just feels like excusing the poor planning on the writers part now that they've had 3 games (and all the associated spinoffs) to reveal a much clearer lore. And yet the player still isn't any closer to learning the truth about all these questions since Origins they still have. (The Old Gods/The Titans/The Evanuris/etc) I was offering a personal opinion, I wasn't "defending" anyone. I don't think the plots of DA games are particularly high quality. I don't know of any writer or group of writers who sits down and writes out the entire, objectively true history of their fantasy setting, let alone one who has ever revealed it all. Tolkien gave it a go, I suppose one could say, and it took his entire life and he died without finishing it anyway and surprise, surprise, most people don't bother to engage with it now that his family has decided to make money off it, when he likely intended the bulk of it to stay private. I don't dispute that DA's plots are poorly planned, I think that they are, but if your metric for "poorly planned" is "it didn't answer all of my questions", then you're going to find that most fantasy or sci-fi fiction is poorly planned, because most writers aren't thinking about it half as much as their fan are, especially not background lore that they never intend to explore in-depth.
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Post by jrpN7 on Mar 16, 2021 14:45:48 GMT
I always saw her as a normal middle-class woman who happened to be at the right place at the right time when something divine or extraordinary happened. People idolized her and any happenstance that occured after her death was considered to have had her hand involved past the grave until she was over time given goddess status.
So if she were brought back as a squaddie, she'd be useless. Although her tagging along in an urn to criticize everything we do does sound humorous and I'd be all for that.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Mar 16, 2021 15:20:58 GMT
Meh, to me that whole "the mystery is the fun part" just feels like excusing the poor planning on the writers part now that they've had 3 games (and all the associated spinoffs) to reveal a much clearer lore. And yet the player still isn't any closer to learning the truth about all these questions since Origins they still have. (The Old Gods/The Titans/The Evanuris/etc) I was offering a personal opinion, I wasn't "defending" anyone. I don't think the plots of DA games are particularly high quality. I don't know of any writer or group of writers who sits down and writes out the entire, objectively true history of their fantasy setting, let alone one who has ever revealed it all. Tolkien gave it a go, I suppose one could say, and it took his entire life and he died without finishing it anyway and surprise, surprise, most people don't bother to engage with it now that his family has decided to make money off it, when he likely intended the bulk of it to stay private. I don't dispute that DA's plots are poorly planned, I think that they are, but if your metric for "poorly planned" is "it didn't answer all of my questions", then you're going to find that most fantasy or sci-fi fiction is poorly planned, because most writers aren't thinking about it half as much as their fan are, especially not background lore that they never intend to explore in-depth. But that's problem there - the aforementioned stuff with the Old Gods/Black City/Andraste/Titans isn't some minor background lore, it's stuff that's drives the whole narrative, why Thedas the way it is and why the characters & organisations have any goals at all. (For the grey wardens killing the Archdemon/ for The Chantry the Maker etc) We know with Solas being the main baddie in DA4 we'll likely learn more about the Evanuris & Arlathan , so I don't know why you think any of that stuff is something that they "never intended to explore in-depth." And that's just a silly comparison comparing minor details Tolkien never got around to answering to a company like Bioware not clearing up large patches of the story in DA's own universe. I don't expect (or want) to know every little detail but by 3 games I would've expected much more progress then where the series is by now.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 4, 2024 5:20:26 GMT
Andrastebros......I can just feel it in my bones she's going to be a party member. She was what 33 when she died? Assuming she came back into the main storyline by the time of Ostagar 9:30, she'd been in her 50s id Dreadwolf takes place in 9:50 to 9:52. That's MILF territory for a romance option! I'm curious how her being a party member will play out in Dreadwolf - will she be a mage or a warrior? If she was the OGB, does she still have the soul of Dumat? I'd LOVE it if Kieran and Andraste were both in the party together!
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 4, 2024 7:05:27 GMT
You just know The Urn of Sacred Ashes guardian was holding it for Andraste - 1000 years would be worth for a chance with the Prophet
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 4, 2024 7:12:49 GMT
Assuming she came back into the main storyline by the time of Ostagar 9:30, she'd been in her 50s id Dreadwolf takes place in 9:50 to 9:52. Not quite sure why you think that she would have returned in 9:30. However, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Andraste could be reborn. The Alamaari/Avvar believe in reincarnation, as did the ancient Neromenians. The latter also believed that their heroes were reborn as dragons. Considering that is what the cult at Haven also believed, perhaps it was a general belief across the barbarian tribes. Add in the fact that her bloodline was transmitted down the years through the female line, it is entirely possible that she could be reborn at any time. If we meet a companion who is being plagued by strange dreams of a former life, then we could well be looking at a reincarnated Andraste.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 4, 2024 7:19:07 GMT
Assuming she came back into the main storyline by the time of Ostagar 9:30, she'd been in her 50s id Dreadwolf takes place in 9:50 to 9:52. Not quite sure why you think that she would have returned in 9:30. However, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Andraste could be reborn. The Alamaari/Avvar believe in reincarnation, as did the ancient Neromenians. The latter also believed that their heroes were reborn as dragons. Considering that is what the cult at Haven also believed, perhaps it was a general belief across the barbarian tribes. Add in the fact that her bloodline was transmitted down the years through the female line, it is entirely possible that she could be reborn at any time. If we meet a companion who is being plagued by strange dreams of a former life, then we could well be looking at a reincarnated Andraste. The only reason I picked 9:30 was because it's exactly a 1000 years after Andraste's supposed "death." Surely that had to be intentional on the writers part, maybe something happens during the 5th Blight that brought her back around that time?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 4, 2024 7:20:35 GMT
What I would personally find cool is if we had a reincarnated/resurrected Shartan, who opposes Solas. I know there were fan theories that Solas and Shartan were one and the same, not helped by the prologue to the Canticle of Shartan which had scholars suggesting Shartan was not a real person, but I've long said that I hope they don't go down that route. He could have been a follower of Fen'Harel, like Felassan, who ultimately turned against him. Shartan gave his life trying to rescue Andraste but perhaps that wasn't meant to be part of the plan. Mind you, I think Shartan would also be opposed to the southern Chantry after what they did to the Dales, and possibly the Tevinter Chantry too as a perversion of the religion. According to the Canticle, Andraste gave him her mother's sword (which had an elven name meaning belief or something similar) and named him her Champion of Freedom, who should fight for it on behalf of both their peoples, so he would feel it an insult to Andraste that Tevinter still had slavery.
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Post by g_scoundrel on Apr 4, 2024 8:19:05 GMT
What the heck is this thread. I can generate deranged fantasies too: an Archdemon as a mount in DAD, picking up elfroot in the Golden City in DAD, a QTE about polishing Solas's head in DAD.
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Post by Sandetiger on Apr 4, 2024 14:45:10 GMT
idk I think it's kind of fun. Feels like a cracktheory, but there's something kind of delightful about the rising wrath of Andraste, come to play with the elvhen gods. tbh though I always thought Andraste was another vassal of Mythal the way Flemeth and her daughters are.
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Post by General Mahad on Apr 4, 2024 17:44:15 GMT
I subscribe to the idea that the Witches of the Wilds (atleast in Ferelden) are descendants of Andraste. If this theory is correct, then technically we already had an Andraste with us, a cynical and heretical one at that.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Apr 5, 2024 7:24:18 GMT
Sorry, everyone, I am pretty busy these days and really don't have time to be a Dreadwolf party member.
... oh, wait, you mean the other one. Carry on.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 5, 2024 7:39:55 GMT
I subscribe to the idea that the Witches of the Wilds (atleast in Ferelden) are descendants of Andraste. If this theory is correct, then technically we already had an Andraste with us, a cynical and heretical one at that. From whose viewpoint? That of the Chantry? Well, the southern Chantry was Drakon's creation and in the words of Ameridan, "simplified" the religion. There was a codex associated with the Ash Warriors that said they had their own prophet of the Maker after Andraste, Gelgennig and that for many years they rejected the Chantry as not a true reflection of their religion. Sadly, they would appear to have killed them all off at Ostagar so we were never able to explore their beliefs further. Also, the saga of Tyrrda Brightaxe showed that it is possible to have a sort of spiritual marriage with a spirit of the Fade, her leaf-eared lover not actually being a material being, which is why in order to have a child to carry on her line, she married a dwarf prince. So, this would appear to be part of the Avvar/Alamaari cultural belief and so it was quite in keeping with this for Andraste to have an earthly husband but also be the "bride" of the Maker in the Fade. Tyrrda was of course a mage but then we know that it was likely Andraste was one too, before the Chantry suppressed that fact, so like the Augurs of the Avvar it was natural for her to commune with Fade spirits. In fact we know from JoH that voluntary possession by a benign spirit is the way that they train their mages. Normally they relinquish the spirit when the training is done. However, the girl in JoH didn't want to let her spirit go. What if the same was true of Andraste? DG maintained there was no obvious link between the story of Tyrrda and either Andraste or Flemeth but perhaps he was being coy about it because that was going to be a later reveal. It certainly seems strange that they called Tyrrda's direct descendant Morrighan'nan and Flemeth's daughter was called Morrigan if they wanted to avoid connections being made. So, if we disregard DG's comment as equivocation, I think Andraste was likely a descendant of Morrighan'nan and the human Flemeth was a descendant of Andraste, and so on. I would also point out that Andraste's mother, whilst not an Alamaari/Avvar but a Cirianne, came from a culture where they were ruled by a Gothi Queen and it was her marriage to Andraste's father that united the barbarian tribes of the south. She also had an elven sword, so may be she descended from the line of Morrighan'nan on the western side of the Frostbacks instead of the east.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 5, 2024 15:01:16 GMT
I subscribe to the idea that the Witches of the Wilds (atleast in Ferelden) are descendants of Andraste. If this theory is correct, then technically we already had an Andraste with us, a cynical and heretical one at that. From whose viewpoint? That of the Chantry? Well, the southern Chantry was Drakon's creation and in the words of Ameridan, "simplified" the religion. There was a codex associated with the Ash Warriors that said they had their own prophet of the Maker after Andraste, Gelgennig and that for many years they rejected the Chantry as not a true reflection of their religion. Sadly, they would appear to have killed them all off at Ostagar so we were never able to explore their beliefs further. Also, the saga of Tyrrda Brightaxe showed that it is possible to have a sort of spiritual marriage with a spirit of the Fade, her leaf-eared lover not actually being a material being, which is why in order to have a child to carry on her line, she married a dwarf prince. So, this would appear to be part of the Avvar/Alamaari cultural belief and so it was quite in keeping with this for Andraste to have an earthly husband but also be the "bride" of the Maker in the Fade. Tyrrda was of course a mage but then we know that it was likely Andraste was one too, before the Chantry suppressed that fact, so like the Augurs of the Avvar it was natural for her to commune with Fade spirits. In fact we know from JoH that voluntary possession by a benign spirit is the way that they train their mages. Normally they relinquish the spirit when the training is done. However, the girl in JoH didn't want to let her spirit go. What if the same was true of Andraste? DG maintained there was no obvious link between the story of Tyrrda and either Andraste or Flemeth but perhaps he was being coy about it because that was going to be a later reveal. It certainly seems strange that they called Tyrrda's direct descendant Morrighan'nan and Flemeth's daughter was called Morrigan if they wanted to avoid connections being made. So, if we disregard DG's comment as equivocation, I think Andraste was likely a descendant of Morrighan'nan and the human Flemeth was a descendant of Andraste, and so on. I would also point out that Andraste's mother, whilst not an Alamaari/Avvar but a Cirianne, came from a culture where they were ruled by a Gothi Queen and it was her marriage to Andraste's father that united the barbarian tribes of the south. She also had an elven sword, so may be she descended from the line of Morrighan'nan on the western side of the Frostbacks instead of the east. Do you have a link to that DG interview where he talsk about TBA and Andraste? I can't seem to find it anywhere
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 5, 2024 15:37:06 GMT
I'm a proponent of the Tyrdda Bright Axe was the Augur of Mystery theory.
I'm not sure exactly when Blood Magic became a thing, but couldn't she have extended her life with it like Avernus did? That would've left her the First Warden by the time of Blight 1, it's not a stretch to think she could've either created the joining or been the One to propose The Dark Ritual to a warden on the eve of the battle on the Silent Plains.
In fact it is not unreasonable at all to assume that this knowledge could've easily been bestowed upon her by Mythal or another evanuris like Andruil assuming that the Lady of the Skies was the form they took. Tyrdda came long before blood magic was discovered and could've easily let it be practiced by Avvars or the high priestess of Razikale.
Then when the Second Sin happened and the Blights began, Mythal could've easily cast TBA aside under the assumption she would die and not be a threat afterwards. But TBA would live and found the Grey Wardens in the process. Makes sense no?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 5, 2024 16:52:15 GMT
Do you have a link to that DG interview where he talsk about TBA and Andraste? I can't seem to find it anywhere I'm fairly certain it was quoted by someone on these boards but unfortunately I can't be more precise than that, other than it may have been somewhere on the Crazy Theory thread.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 5, 2024 17:00:07 GMT
I'm a proponent of the Tyrdda Bright Axe was the Augur of Mystery theory. No, I think she was just a regular Avvar Augur. The leaf-eared lover from the Fade is the interesting one. As you say, she was identified as the laughing Lady of the Skies. That immediately reminded me of Flemeth because she often laughs, albeit somewhat sinister at times, so maybe the tendency to laughter comes from Mythal. She was clearly guiding Tyrdda into following a particular path, ensuring the offshoot of the Alamaari, the Avvar, remained strong and free of the malign influence of the Alamaari chieftain. Then she seemed to direct what Tyrrda should do about ensuring her successor, who was a daughter. It may have been she was carefully nurturing the bloodline down through the years whilst she was recovering her strength in the Fade until it appeared in Flemeth when she was in a position to take possession of a material body.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 6, 2024 17:52:36 GMT
Is it possible that OGB Andraste was banished to the Void by someone else? I thought over the Aeonar/Ostagar connection and how the Tevinter Mages there were all murdered by Avvars at the time of Andraste's death - with the exception of one.
Could this have been a blood ritual to seal the OGB away by the First Warden? Then by the time of the Fifth Blight the battle of Ostagar instigates another Blood Ritual, Andraste emerges again with the Old God Soul and escapes from the carnage. Could this have been the real reason that Mythal wanted another Kieran/OGB in the mix? That she had sensed Andraste's/Dumats presence and felt another Old God was needed to help her in the fight against the remaining Archdemons? I remember reading a theory years ago that the real reason Mythal saved Hawke was not because she needed him, but because she wanted to save Aveline - who like Leliana was theorized to be a descendent of Andraste. What if the real reason she saved Aveline was because she had mistaken her for Andraste? That she was trying to find Andraste in the carnage of Ostagar after she had sent The Warden, Alistair and Morrigan along to stop the Fifth Blight? Do you have transcripts of Eleni Zinovia prophecies gervaise21 ? I remember reading it once and how it mentioned a Void that had been breached or overrun in Witch Hunt.
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Post by xerrai on Apr 6, 2024 19:49:11 GMT
Is it possible that OGB Andraste was banished to the Void by someone else? [...] Do you have transcripts of Eleni Zinovia prophecies gervaise21 ? I remember reading it once and how it mentioned a Void that had been breached or overrun in Witch Hunt. We don't have exact quotes for her early prophesies as far as I know, but we have quotes from DAO. The wiki page gives the best bits. But for the quote you are specifically looking for, I think it is this one. Witch Hunt Dialogue: "A hunger! A cage! A yawning void! Help me!" "The prison is breached! I see the encroaching darkness! The shadows will consume all!" ( Source)
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 9, 2024 1:53:43 GMT
How should Andraste be presented as a party member? Any Ideas? I thought over who was elected Divine and how Andraste might react to that if she was was alive by the time of the Dragon Age. Maybe She's with the chantry officially if (A) Cassandra/Softened Leliana was made Divine ( She went to Tevinter on her own if Vivienne was elected Divine (C) If Hardened Leliana was Divine, she's apart of Vivienne's offshoot (D) If Leliana was Hardened and killed in Origins, she's apart of the offshoot but will also hold a grudge against The Warden if they are still alive. I also thought over how this could all be bypassed if Andraste was in Tevinter. Maybe she's a Imperial Chantry Sister at the start of the game and the Magisters are unaware of it?
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 9, 2024 10:26:52 GMT
I also thought over how this could all be bypassed if Andraste was in Tevinter. Maybe she's a Imperial Chantry Sister at the start of the game and the Magisters are unaware of it? The set up in the Imperial Chantry is different from the south and from what I recall from conversation with Dorian, it is male dominated, although World of Thedas indicated that they have both reverend fathers and mothers, so may be it is only at the very top with the grand clerics and Imperial Divine the distinction is made. All clerics of any status are mages though and belong to one of the Tevinter Circles. So, certainly Andraste being reborn as a mage, likely what she was before, would not be a problem. However, it does depend on how much she remembers of her former life. If she had lived as a spirit in the Fade with full remembrance of her former identity, then it might well be she would choose to return through, say, a Rivaini Wise Woman, rather than in Tevinter itself. Otherwise, if she only remembers fragments of her identity then she could pop up anywhere and we would just get clues as to her previous life when, perhaps, she sees a familiar landmark and responds to it or hears the Chant being recited and it triggers some memory in her. Also, from what I recall of the Avvar reincarnation, she may also be plagued by dreams of her former existence. I imagine if we took her to the location of her execution, which is either inside Minrathous or immediately in front of the gates (depending on which version of the story is the true one) that might really freak her out.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 9, 2024 16:08:18 GMT
Andraste as a party member? Then I want to play as the maker. Since Andraste did some singing, maybe have Leliana in the next game having a duet with Andraste.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 11, 2024 14:52:32 GMT
Andrastebros.....I can see her playing an important role in Tevinter. Maybe she still has the Old God Soul within her, and Dumat could potentially help us against Razikale and Lusacan? Archdemon vs Archdemon vs Archdemon fight is on our hands
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January 2021
blackmagicritual
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Apr 16, 2024 18:37:23 GMT
If Andraste really was the OGB, would she have a mind of her own or would it be shared with Dumat? (Like Kieran seemed to be) Or eventually, as she matured, has Dumat had completely taken over?
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